Musharraf’s New Ordinance Hoopla

masadi saab, I noticed you never cursed or used bad words when you were in US...but lately you are using lot of sheeday nayee and phiddu teli's dialogs..eh pencho lahore da paani edaN da ay.:)

#292, ok let me take that back, I have no clue about the profession of this person's mom or his dad, the post was a result of provocation by this sob who is not man enough to argue on the points because I am dead on factually on them so he talks about other people's parents. I apologize to his parents, just because their son is a miserable fcuk does not mean that they are bad people...

Kulharee writes "I am telling your Ammi Jan that you are an SOB and that your Abbaji ...

Not before I have already told your mama that her son is a sob, and would have like to tell your abbaji many things but because your mom was involved in the profession where abbajis are hard to locate once they have done their deed, I was unsuccessful in locating him...

Kulharee writes "Oh yeah, my wife is fluent in 6 languages also. and she is pretty too. Drop dead gorgeous. "

She can speak a dozen languages but in US society she is worth nothing if she isn't made according to the attractiveness scale of the white man which, if she is not reduces her to the lowest of the low in US society and ideal material for interracial marriage with high socioeconomic class males of color who attend expensive private universities. You married a fat dumbo whom you consider "drop dead gorgeous" but who is shunned by US society because the white man does not find DUMBO sexy...

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masadi , you a tranny? seriouslly get all of it checked from the doctors...!

Masadi, clam down man. chill. My wife has a first from the world class university (I had upper second). Her father was a high level diplomat in Iran (just before Khomeni arrived) my father a small time engineer. She comes from a loaded family, while my ancestors were solid working class village people. It is insecure schumks like you who have to carry class on your sleeve (which by the way you don’t have any). I am telling your Ammi Jan that you are an SOB and that your Abbaji was a bigger SOB for not pulling out in time to spare everyone the indignity of your being.

Oh yeah, my wife is fluent in 6 languages also. and she is pretty too. Drop dead gorgeous.

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Arjun writes "your intellectual prowess is only in your own mind..."

That is why when I confront these "intellectual bestsellers" with questions they seem to lose their tongue....

#282 Posted by masadi on October 11, 2007 12:12:59 pm


Bestsellers don't mean sh** where intellect is concerned



Most people won't give you their shit in exchange for one of your rants published by lulu.com.

your intellectual prowess is only in your own mind...

Kulharee writes "Re#274 - If calling others SOB makes you feel secure about your mediocrity, then let me say that you are the biggest SOB ever to have come out of second-rate upbringing."

Like I said in the earlier post, I am telling your mama not only that her son is married to DUMBO- a white woman who is grotesquely fat that she couldn't find a white mate, I am also telling her that her son is a SOB.

Chalta writes "For a simple test, open up a sunday NYtimes and take a look at desi-whitey marriage profiles in the wedding section"

That is not how research is done on interracial marriage, even there if you check the profile you'd find that the south asian has a higher income/wealth/education than the "low status" white he married. You just throw out BS that you've not research yourself either and in that abstract when it talks about white interracial marriage not being related to education attainment, it is not only talking about African American- whose rates of interracial marriage with whites are much higher than those of south asians by the way- and it reveals that lower class blacks just like lower class south asians are kept out of the interracial marraige market- what does that tell you?

Kulharee writes "Masadi, you agree that you are capable of calling your own mother a low class dumbo and flashing your mediocre credentials in her face"

No, I am telling your mama and you that your wife is considered "low status" in her society and is fat like Dumbo that is why she found it in her heart to marry you. Am I wrong? She is fat and she is like Dumbo, and you desis who go for interracial marriage always lose, you are higher class than your mate, have higher education than her, higher income and wealth and she cannot find a white mate that is why she marries you in most of the cases...

Kulharee wrote " I doubt that Walter Mead even knows who the schmuk you are. "

Exactly, that is why he was hiding behind the skirt of the moderator during question and answer session and then ran away without having lunch after the meeting, avoiding any eye contact with me with the US State Dept rep by his side and a lady who was busy photographing all attendees whom he described as his "grad assistant" but who was clearly a CIA person accompanying him on his meeting to colleges and universities as well as seminaries in Pakistan....Bestsellers don't mean sh** where intellect is concerned, otherwise O'reilly and Ann Coulter, not to mention the Christian nuts who write mega bestsellers would together have around half the intellect of the world, not so fool...

Masadi, you agree that you are capable of calling your own mother a low class dumbo and flashing your mediocre credentials in her face? Look ma, diploma. Have you ever considered shoving that diploma of yours you know where?

masadi, you are comparing blacks in the US to South Asians? How retarded are you, really? I am thinking you are below Gump but Kulharee keeps thinkings you are just above Corky.

You take what is written about blacks and white below and extrapolate it to desi-white marriages? What is the per cap income of desis compared to blacks, educational backgrounds, professional pedigree? It is very different from the african americans and so are their interactions and social connections to other races in the country.

For a simple test, open up a sunday NYtimes and take a look at desi-whitey marriage profiles in the wedding section. UKP..just because some fat white chick got you deported doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat.

chaltahai writes "You go from saying ,"GWB hasd bad policies...(which many could agree) to US Elite are controlling the world and then quickly digress to ther is no Al qaeda and US didn;t land on the moon and Islam is the answert..etc. If you would have just stopped at GWB is a bad man..I would have patted you on the head and given you a lolly pop. But you obviously are fk'ing crazy..so no hope of that. "

Look fool, it is quite apparent to all that whenever you come up with an argument against my posts they are busted so you are relegated to inventing lies about me. I challenge you to find me one post that I wrote which says that have any of the generalizations and outright lies that you have reproduced about me. Regarding interracial marriage, it is a FACT that most whites marry among themselves and within their own background. The ones that cannot, usually low status i.e. single moms or fat like Dumbo (Kulharee's wife) find desis "acceptible", and that represents the vast majority of desi/white woman marriages, regardless of the background of the desi.

Now your claim is total BS, not only because you don't have a clue about what you say (and try to argue with a sociologist regarding social issues) but you are uneducated as well- regardless of the name of the institution on the useless piece of paper you got.

Read this abstract from a professional journal and think about it,

Aaron Gullickson - Education and Black-White Interracial Marriage - Demography 43:4 Demography 43.4 (2006) 673-689 Muse Search Journals This Journal Contents Education and Black-White Interracial Marriage Aaron Gullickson Abstract This article examines competing theoretical claims regarding how an individual's education will affect his or her likelihood of interracial marriage. I demonstrate that prior models of interracial marriage have failed to adequately distinguish the joint and marginal effects of education on interracial marriage and present a model capable of distinguishing these effects. I test this model on black-white interracial marriages using 1980, 1990, and 2000 U.S. census data. The results reveal partial support for status exchange theory within black male-white female unions and strong isolation of lower-class blacks from the interracial marriage market. Structural assimilation theory is not supported because the educational attainment of whites is not related in any consistent fashion to the likelihood of interracial marriage. The strong isolation of lower-class blacks from the interracial marriage market has gone unnoticed in prior research because of the failure of prior methods to distinguish joint and marginal effects

Dashy, In Masadis case the other hand has a hook on the end of it. :)

Kulharee and chaltahai......

I am reminded of the following from way back

what is the height of frustration?

A one armed bandit hanging from the guttering with an itch in his groin (balls) etc.

Kulahree, a correction..if I many..Masadi would make a greaet secretary for a USED car salesman.

Masadi, what you don't understand is that you sound like that guy who loses all credibility when he opens his mouth more than it is required. You go from saying ,"GWB hasd bad policies...(which many could agree) to US Elite are controlling the world and then quickly digress to ther is no Al qaeda and US didn;t land on the moon and Islam is the answert..etc. If you would have just stopped at GWB is a bad man..I would have patted you on the head and given you a lolly pop. But you obviously are fk'ing crazy..so no hope of that.

As far as desis marrying the leftovers as you put it..it just might be your experience because inter racial marriages int eh US happen more with people marrying someone of the other race with similar socioeconomic or educational background.

Obviously, there were a lot of fat white chicks who turned you down when you were at Oookalooka Community collge

Re#274 - If calling others SOB makes you feel secure about your mediocrity, then let me say that you are the biggest SOB ever to have come out of second-rate upbringing. Moron, Chalta and I attend CFR events on regular basis, so stop trying to impress us with your stupidity. Let me just take a little gas out of your system – his books are routinely best sellers, while you are a perpetual moaner and a complainer. I doubt that Walter Mead even knows who the schmuk you are. Why don’t you just go and take some courses in short hand and typing, I am confident that you will make a fantastic secretary to some cars salesman.

Re #273, unlike you I am not insecure. I freely speak my mind at work and at home that on many an occassion has put me in trouble but since I am not "insecure" I have no problem with that. I told Walter Russell Mead in a meeting on my first day at work that he was a sob, and on similar meetings I have told people on their face what I think of their ideas. Regarding women, I used to live in the US you little idiot, and unlike you I didn't have to settle for DUMBO to date and marry, I didn't let the white man determine whom I could and could not date and I caused distress to many a white man who cannot stand what they consider a high status i.e. attractive woman going out with a man of color.....

Chaltahai Yaar, why do you make him feel so insecure? There’s no need to ridicule his mediocre education and lack of pedigree, he makes plenty fool of himself as it is. The poor guy, has probably never seen a woman, let alone a white one. Has read one book (something to do with the US Elite) and have never probably set foot outside of his tiny little maddrassa. If anything, I feel sorry for him. He is a disgrace to all unemployed idiots.

Chalta writes "Masadi, that is why internet is a great place for you. In real life you wouldn't even be included in the same breath as Kulharee, whose educational and professional pedigree is a million times more credible and exalted than you could hope to achieve"

Kulharee can be measured by "pedigree" but since I'm not a dog, I'd rather not consider myself of his "pedigree". Regarding education, he writes at the level of a college Sophomore, and people can tell who among the two can think better, they don't need the authority of a third rate idiot like yourself. Regarding profession, if some company was fooled by some papers he carried and couldn't see beyond that to his dimwitted intellect, then I don't have much regard for those "professionals". Regarding marriage, the desis only get to pick from the rejects of the whites and they happen to be of low status (where women are concerned) - and status for women in the US, for the very vast majority, the aggregate, is still granted based on marital status and appearance.....

bulleya writes "....i have always wondered why american military thinkers cannot figure out one of the simplest phenomenons of war: it is impossible to defeat a civilian insurgency, which has popularity amongst the people, through force"

You don't have to wonder too hard, every top kid on the block thinks he is unstoppable, they are drunk on their own "shock and awe" value, did not the Pharoah, the puny little ant fart say "I am God"?

That said, sometimes cauing chaos is the strategy of war for those who wish to profit from human carnage and the Americans are experts in that "field".

Zeemax sahib,

(So, all this thing that Indians say re 'blow back' for own doings is completely untrue. Pakistan never used Tribals in the Kashmiri insurgency.)

I don’t think u read my post #232 carefully. I was referring to the use of Pushtoons for fulfilling Pak objectives not only in Kashmir but also in Afghanistan so in that sense use of the term “blowback” is correct. Yes, the number of Pushtoons was relatively small as compared to Azad Kashmiris and Punjabis but they were there nonetheless. And large numbers of them were recruited by Pak into Taliban which was created (from their mentors- BB/Babar/ISI POV that is) not to establish an Islamic state there but to create a satellite state there. And although is forgotten now it has USA’s blessings allegedly so that Unocal could lay a pipeline across the country without having to deal with the lawless tribals there.

Clifton,

(If the "movement" ever becomes a serious threat rather than a big nuisance believe me the nukes are coming.)

I will not comment on the morality of using nukes. But where would they drop the nukes? On the crowded bazaars of Peshawar, which would wipe out thousands of civilians without affecting the fighters who would be holed up in the remote mountain fastness? What use would nukes be in the thinly populated mountainous terrain of FATA/Afghanistan?

Regards

....i have always wondered why american military thinkers cannot figure out one of the simplest phenomenons of war: it is impossible to defeat a civilian insurgency, which has popularity amongst the people, through force....

....when the usa invaded iraq, and every chickenhawk from gbush to hameedm (not to be confused with our local cyber purple heart winner hamidm)was trying to tell us how the usa would devour the iraqis and there would be joy everywhere, some of us pointed out the simple phenomenon mentioned above.....we did not need to do any detailed analysis of the situation like rummie may have done....it was war 101.......

yet the usa keeps going on and on and on.....in iraq and in afghanistan.....getting its butt kicked in both places.....

.....since many of us are not americans, the usa getting its butt kicked is of no concern.......however, now the usa has gotten pakistan involved in its battle also.......pakistan will suffer the same fate........the question of an offensive being right and wrong does not matter, if one is going to lose.......

........there is absolutely no way pakistan is going to win in waziristan, through military force....once again, no detailed analysis is needed........

.......so what should pakistan do.......

....it should quitely back out of waziristan and let the usa fight its own battles.....pakistan fought one usa battle against the soviets, and look what it got....klashnikovs, taliban and heroin........no need to fight another........specially since the waziristanis cannot reach new york to carry out their attacks, but they can reach islamabad........

.....pakistan should also tell the waziristanis that, if they consider themselves a part of pakistan, and want pakistani protection, then they cannot, independently, declare war on usa or on afghanistan.......however, if they still want to do so, then they are on their own.....they shouldn't request pakistani protection, if usa bombs them.....

.....after that, pakistan should let the usa and waziristanis fight to their hearts' content.....

this is a terrible battle to be a part of........damned if you do, and damned if you don't........

#215 Posted by zeemax on October 9, 2007 1:14:46 am


You might be surprised to learn that Waziristanis do have their own Government ... by constitution!


Oh...it's in the constitution of the land of the pure...phew..the tribals are fine then...cause we all know how allah's army put the constitution before the book to end all books..

Masadi, that is why internet is a great place for you. In real life you wouldn't even be included in the same breath as Kulharee, whose educational and professional pedigree is a million times more credible and exalted than you could hope to achieve. So keep spouting your idiocy without looking at the reality that surrounds you.

Most desis who intermarry tend to have people with the same educational and profesional pedigree as themselves. It is only the islamiyat chuckleheads who look to add numbers by marrying the trailer trash and convicts.

Arjun writes "the day america loses it's patience and stops caring about any civilian casualty"

America doesn't care about civilians, just look at Iraq where over 1.2 million have perished because of the US and over 80% are civilian, a similar percent follows in nearly all of America's wars post WW2 and those wars have NOT been few but a regular pattern of the giant jumping the ocean to barbarically kill "invented" foes for ulterior motive...now go to hell and let me rest in peace for the rest of the night.....

#250 Posted by zeemax on October 9, 2007 7:01:44 am


As I always say ... you can kill an army with bombs, but not a movement.

And yes, there will be huge suffering for innocent women and children


blah blah blah...the day america loses it's patience and stops caring about any civilian casualty, like it did in dresden, then you'll see...


in any case, I heard allah's army killed a whole bunch of muslim women and children..if this was collateral damage from US fighters, you guys would be going ape-shit..

Good night everyone, later....maybe if my account still exists....

On the other hand Kulharee calls me an AH- he actually spells it out explicitly together with other curses and gets away scot free, even in this post NAZI is a greater insult especially when coupled with a lie than "Dumbo"- a disney character- fat nonetheless....

On the other hand Kulharee calls me an AH- he actually spells it out explicitly together with other curses and gets away scot free, even in this post NAZI is a greater insult especially when coupled with a lie than "Dumbo"- a disney character- fat nonetheless....

Chowk Staff are at it again, they have blocked my account based on this post

"Your following post was filtered for objectionable content. For the next 24 hours all your posts will be reviewed before they appear on Chowk. Failure to follow Interact Guidelines may result in your account being suspended.

Kulharee writes " I know Masadi is married to a Nazi (actually a Nazi married to a Masadi – a match made in haven), who else here is married to outside of their puny little circle? "

Actually I am unmarried, unlike Kulharee who is married to, as is the case with desis in the US,9 times out of 10, get to pick from low status whites- the ones whom no white man would pick- the single moms with three kids or women the size of an elephant. Even then the "elephant" treats them as if they are rubbish just because of their skin color. So if you are not involved in an inter-racial marriage, i.e. married to a white woman who could not find a white mate so she "accepted" you (like the Kulharee marriage with Dumbo),chances are you are healthier, happier and all the wiser for it...."

hamidm - cow dung is the single biggest contributer to global warming. I think you should tell your peshawari contacts that India is sinking the world :(

"If they nuke Waziristan, they'll need to nuke half the planet as well"...half the planet Zee? how ? are the shias in iraq going to care? is FATAH going to care? will saudi arabia stop licking uncle sams sack? Will the MQM take up the ummah flag? ....half the above groups would sooner kill the talibanists themselves than kill to avenge them.
Exactly what part of the muslim population will agitate so badly they will have to be bombed?....only the part already fighting the war right now and noone else. Others may feel bad about it but thats all. EVERYONE has their own problems to address first. The world really is that brutal and self serving.
Yknow if i was amreeki and i wanted to bomb a crater thru the tribal areas i WOULD escalate tension btw them and pakistan. I would hold a referendum. Id let the dum dums win. Then i'd say waziristan is attacking pakistan and pakistan is about to lose control of nukes ...and then id bomb them good and proper.
Noone would utter a single word of condemnation. There would be large visable signs of regret and fortitude all over the world and that would be that.
The best thing for pakistan and waziristan is to let small scale fighting continue btw armed combatants till everyone stops giving a damn. Neither side can 'win' but we can both lose, specially since many of us consider ourselves the same people. (fundos and nonfundos alike)

Re: # 256

:)

... and there was an Uzza as well ... are you keeping her for yourself you naughty hamidm you ?

#255 Posted by hamidm2,

But we already have Lat and Manat ... Who do you think neembu and scout_new are ?

Re: # 254

zeemax,

... what does that tell you? .... i have always maintained that the solution lies in the liberation of hijaz and a un led reformation of islam .... personally, i wouldn't mind the restoration of lat and manat in the kaaba ..... maybe after hajj ....

#251 Posted by cliftonbridge,

You really believe nukes are an option? I know many americans believe they should be used but it is not only Waziristan. If they nuke Waziristan, they'll need to nuke half the planet as well.

Do read the following link from Time Magazine. On the first glance you may think it's talking about Afghanistan, but actually it is South Thailand.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1644900,00.html

Re: # 251

clifton,

.... there is no such thing as an 'innocent' afghani ..... according to my uncle, who is a magistrate in peshawar, these people are responsible for global warming ....... a couple of summers ago when it was a sweltering 120 degrees he said, 'it has never been this hot in peshawar ... ever since these damn afghan refugees started burning tires and anything else they can lay their theiving hands on, the temperature has gone up at least fifty degrees "

#248 Posted by hamidm2

I don't disagree with you at all. I may not have any blood relations with pathans but I used to know those areas like the back of my palm. I have traveled extensively in the tribal areas and have numerous friends in Kohat, Peshawar and the other parts of NWFP. In fact, this weekend I talked to my friend in Peshawar, a Bungash, who wants me to help him emigrate to Canada. He thinks the situation is pretty bad there. He happens to be an executive in a bank in Peshawar.

The tribal are caught in a game between the army and the havayoon and malaoons in the name of Islam. The army is helping them and then turns around and send tribal faujis to fight them. That is so ridiculous.

We need to call their bluff and the best way is to ask for a referendum. The referendum results would decide what needs to be done with these malaoons and havayoon and their partners in the army.

So far america has not used nukes, and thats ONLY because of the HUGE power dispairty - afghanistan only put up a whimper when they were invaded. If the "movement" ever becomes a serious threat rather than a big nuisance believe me the nukes are coming. How will they fight that exactly?

Americans may not have "won" in afghanistan...taleban certainly havent won and are not going to, - but between these both kanjars innocent afghanis lose everyday.

#247 Posted by cliftonbridge,

Cliftonbridge, your opinion is fair but it assumes USA is capable of an armegeddon in Waziristan. It bombed Afghanistan into the ground didn't it? But it didn't get them anywhere. Waziristan is same same.

Right now even Pakistan military is using gunships and F-16s over the area as well, but the movement is growing. What more will USA do? Send in ground troops? But as you know ground troops are getting slaughtered like sheep over there.

As I always say ... you can kill an army with bombs, but not a movement.

And yes, there will be huge suffering for innocent women and children, but what do you do with libero-fascists who just wouldn't get it in their ignorance?

WOT is not sustainable. Period. USA will have to leave Afghanistan sooner than later and plenty of scores will be settled. HP is right. Pakistan must distance itself from it.

After all, these are Pakistan's own tried and tested loyal citizens to whom Pakistan owes a hell of a lot.

another famous quote:

grandpa durrani (poplazai): i would have killed your mother before i gave her in marriage to an afridi .... a punjabi dal-khor is much better than someone who eats bara gosht (beef) and then lies about it ........

Re: # 240

hp,

...... the tribals - specially the maliks and sardars - are not fools ..... if they had a referendum in the tribal areas most of them would opt to stay within pakistan where they can get free electricity, duty-free land cruisers and totally free toyota corollas stolen from the rest of the country ..... they also manage to run a lucrative drug business under the protection of the narcotics control board and the political agent .....

... these people have their cake and eat it too .... there are more achakzai, afridi, khattak, niazi and durrani generals in the paki army than syeds and sheikhs ....... the frontier constabulary and the various scout units are primarily staffed with tribesmen who manage to get 'abducted' when they are called upon to do what they are paid to do ...... in peace time they make a good living by selling forests, facilitating smuggling of 'transit' goods from afghanistan back into pakistan, and helping drug dealers and car thieves ....... these people are incorrigible, without any deen or iman and would sell their own sister to make a quick buck and then go on the warpath to avenge their honor ! ..........

.... and i say this based on my experience with family members on my mother's side, who i love dearly ..... of course, i could also quote khushal khan khattak who had his people figured out hundreds of years ago:

Of the Pathans that are famed in the land of Roh,
Now-a-days are the Mohmands, the Bangash, and the Warrakzais, and the Afridis.
The dogs of the Mohmands are better than the Bangash,
Though the Mohmands themselves are a thousand times worse than the dogs.
The Warrakzais are the scavengers of the Afridis,
Though the Afridis, one and all, are but scavengers themselves.
This is the truth of the best of the dwellers in the land of Pathans,
Of those worse than these who would say that they were men?

I am surprised you think thats a good idea Zee. Its only good for nationalistic pakistanis who are not pushtoon. Moments after "liberation" Independant waziristan will be bombed into the ground wont it ? (back to the stone ages ...actually i think the stone ages may not have looked too different).... Many people will die many of them stupid but innocent. At least the people dying now are armed combatants not civilians (on both sides). The real people of waziristan are better off with paksitan ...if you let them vote however we will NEVER hear the womens opinion(ofcourse) and the biggest ghundas will hijack the vote which is what always happens in pakistan. The common man and woman will suffer horribly, even more than before...just so a bunch of jerks can fire klashinkoffs into the hills in victory....for five minutes...before armegeddon.

...correction not anywhere.

#243 Posted by HP,

That is a very sane and well-considered opinion. I would agree with you except for one thing:

The drug trade is in the Khyber Agency, and not nowhere in N/S Waziristan, Bajaur or Malakand etc..

If the tribal decide to have an independent Islamic State of Waziristan, it will be the first state wholly owned by the drug pushers and the mullahs. A match made in heavens!
The mullah will have free hashish before the Maghrab namaz!
Hehehe!

#239 Posted by zeemax
"So I see you're willing to allow them to have a 'sanctuary' for Usama and Zawahiri and Mullah Umar as long as a 'referendum' supports it ..."

If that means the heat is off Pakistan, I support it. An independent Islamic emirate of Waizrstan will have to deal with the US armies and not Pakistani armies. Pakistan's role in the WOT would diminish considerably and the civilian politicians would not have to deal with the havayoon and malaoon suicide bombers in Islamabad.

This would be a win-win situation for Pakistan. However, we need to have an acceptable system of finding out what the tribal want. If they still want to remain in Pakistan, then the Drug smugglers will have to be dealt with as much force as possible and if that needs help from the US army, I will support it.

#240 Posted by HP,

This post is agreed. Now please teach the murtids like hamidm2 as well that you cannot win this war.

HP: while in the business of conducting a referendum in the tribal areas, perhaps they could also conduct a referendum in the rest of pakistan on whether khalifa musharraf would look more dashing in a new uniform (one with prison stripes).

From a civilian perspective, a continued war in the tribal areas creates a justification for the continued army involvement in the Pakistan state under the excuse that they need to fight these Havayoons and malaoons.

The war in that area benefits the army and the army would attempt to continue this war too.
The civilians in Pakistan should ask for a referendum in those areas and if the majority decides for an independent Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan, then let that become a buffer between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Pakistan should understand that it is time for Pakistan to back off from its strategic and political positions in Afghanistan. This maybe a temporary strategic retreat(as Pakistan cannot forever extract itself from that area) but eventually it will strengthen Pakistan in the Central Asian political drama that will continue for another five decades or so.

#238 Posted by HP,

So I see you're willing to allow them to have a 'sanctuary' for Usama and Zawahiri and Mullah Umar as long as a 'referendum' supports it ...

LoL ... it really appears the 'malaoon' liberals have wet their pants quite badly :)

The Havayooon and Malaoon in the tribal area are attempting to set up an "Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan" in the tribal area.

If the majority of the tribal population supports this, then the Pakistan government should not use force to stop independence and find a political settlement to this issue.

However, in those areas there is no civilized way to find out what the majority of the population wants. Assumption is that most of the tribal still support Pakistan and a small group of Arab inspired maliks, Khans, a group of drug smugglers, poppy cultivators, and Heroin distributors are behind this push for Islamic emirate of Wazirstan.

On the face of it, it appears to be a collaboration of the criminals of that area and I am sure that they are supported by some elements in the army. We know that the army has always tolerated and in some cases allowed these drug pushers in Pakistani politics for the sake of building support for the army takeovers in Pakistan.

I think the Pakistani government should allow for a referendum in those areas and seek how badly these havayoon and the malaoons want the Islamic Emirate of Wazistan.

If these malaoons want separation, then imo, no force or power can keep them in Pakistan for long and it is best to find a peaceful workable solution with them.

#236 Posted by hamidm2,

Yeah only the DG ISPR is using this martyr terminology. All the press otherwise is using "Jaan Behaqe'd" for all. Do you only listen to ISPR?

Besides the figures are all wrong. The casualties have been equal on both sides plus 30 paramilitary have been abducted, and the entire Mehsud Scouts has refused to fight.

As for the tribesmen, if you leave them alone in their area they will not bother you. Otherwise your prospects are grim.

But dreaming is not a crime :)

zeemax,

the headlines read : N. Waziristan: 45 troops martyred, 150 militants killed in 3 days

according to geo and other paki newspapers the miscreants/militants/taliban are simply being killed like ordinary hindoos and the kafirs of mecca while our brave soldiers are being martyred like the forces of medina ...... doesn't this bother you ? ..... it makes me happy - very, very, happy - because i have always advocated that these people should be exterminated like the vermin that they are ....... if you remember, i had proposed dropping a couiple of twenty thousand pound bombs on jamia hafsa to make sure that these women don't go out and breed more jihadis .... but no, nobody wanted to listen to me then .....

.... as for all this tribal bullshit - we should take a page out of the hindoo book - the way they have handled their tribesmen in the northeast is the way to go ...... there is no room for primitive tribalism in a a modern state ..... and i say this despite tht fact that many of my relatives live in and around batagram .....

I thin Indians are right there were a couple of pashtuns in Kashmir but this i just another order of magnutude

... as for "It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society", yes probably it will. Unless Pakistani administration wises up and leaves them alone as per the original pact with them. They have their own foreign policy, and Pakistan cannot impose its participation in WOT upon them.

majumdar/harish_hyd.

It appears both of you believe Pushtoons were involved in the Kashmir Jihad through the references to 'non-state' actors and 'utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir'. This is completely false. The tribals were never involved with the Kashmir issue (except in 1948 and later Kargil which were both full-scale invasions on the behest of Pakistan), and all the Kashmir Jihad infiltrators were/are Punjabis or AJK Kashmiris.

So, all this thing that Indians say re 'blow back' for own doings is completely untrue. Pakistan never used Tribals in the Kashmiri insurgency.

Tribals are a different nation, even distinct from Pushtoons of the Pakistani settled areas, and have been completely loyal to Pakistan so far as per their pact at the time of partition. Even now, their agenda is NOT to gain power in Pakistan but simply for Pakistan to stop meddling in its affairs regarding tribals' support to Taliban in war in Afghanistan.

The Lal Masjid massacre though has created a perception amongst them for Pakistan as enemy (as openly declared now by them) because many of those male/female students were from their tribes, and they will exact fitting revenge from those responsible. Apart from that, they are the least interested in Pakistani power games.

Zeemax sahib,

(Now, the Tribals believe Pakistanis have apostated and are Kafirs as well because they are helping Kafirs against Muslims.That is sound logic.)

The original jehad against USSR ended in 1988 and that shud have been the end of story- the Pashtoon jihadis would have gone back to what they do best- kill each other which is what they basically did after 1988 and for much of the first half of 1990s. It is then that the great white hope- Bhootni and her team- got into the act deciding to utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir and in Afghanistan. The rest you guys know anyway.

But tell me one thing. Who will the jihad benefit? It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society without giving the jihadis what they want- power in Pakistan or a Nizam e Mustafa. In short pave way for India's domination of Southern Asia. In a sense my friend YLH's crib about the jihadis being "the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak" parting gift to Pakistan will come true.

Regards

"The point here is that if states to use need military force...."

should read:

"The point here is that if states need to use military force....."

#229 by zeemax

These fighters were told soviets were Kafirs and to fight them along with Usama Bin Laden and they together kicked soviets' butts. Now when the Americans occupied the same country, they were told not to fight the americans.

Zee bhai, states have no permanent friends or foes, which is why yesterday's friend can be today's foe and vice-versa. But the general public thinks differently as you elaborated in the case of the Mujahideen/Taliban/Al Qaeda vis-a-vis the Soviet/American presence in Afghanistan. Which is why it is dangerous to play up public sentiment as Pakistan and America did. Today those same Mujahideen who were once regarded as saviours are the villains and have become a headache for both the Yanks and Pakis. India did the same with Bhindranwale and the LTTE and discovered the danger of playing with fire. Though late and after much damage, it has become wiser and now has cut off all links with the Sikh nationalists and the LTTE and even declared them terrorist organizations. But it seems Pakistan and the US still believe they can milk these organizations to serve their purpose.

The point here is that if states to use need military force, they had better use their Army, which is what it is for in the first place. But when you use non-state actors whose motivations are entirely different from yours, you're asking for trouble.

#227 Posted by majumdar,

Majumdar Saheb, everyone has such a short memory. Basically, yesterday's news establishes the mindset for today and day before yesterday is forgotten history. And so it goes on and on.

These fighters were told soviets were Kafirs and to fight them along with Usama Bin Laden and they together kicked soviets' butts. Now when the Americans occupied the same country, they were told not to fight the americans. And when they didn't listen - because to them the soviets and the americans are the same i.e. kafirs - Pakistanis started to bomb them and sent their army into their territory. Now, the Tribals believe Pakistanis have apostated and are Kafirs as well because they are helping Kafirs against Muslims.

That is sound logic.

#220 by borivili_express

hindus who are gloating right now, no good will come to you eventually, these pashtun fighters will make you long for your kashmiri flower sellers.

Yaar Borivili, no one is gloating, but it does give you satisfaction when you see folks who are out to harm you get harmed in turn. It is human nature. The Indian Army is not there in Kashmir out of choice, it had to enter the state when violence spiraled out of control. To put things in perspective, why wasn't the Indian Army deployed in Kashmir before 1989?

Zeemax sahib,

(So, lakhs would be a better figure for the people who are available for the fight. )

Yes there could be a million odd fighters in NWFP. But have you ever spared a thought on who would be their targets. Their first target would be fellow Pushtoon Muslims followed by Paki Muslims and then if they have any energy left the kaffirooons from across the border. They have already made life miserbale for NWFP, they will next destroy Pakistan b4 they get to do any real damage against anyone else. If not for anything as Pakistani citizen you should be concerned about these jihadis.

Regards

#224 Posted by majumdar

So why is the GoP violating Waziristan's sovereignty?

Exactly. Now you've got it. Pakistan broke its pact with the Tribal Agencies (i.e. FATA) by putting up army checkposts inside it and sending in the army. It is an invasion, and that is why tribes are fighting against it just as any other country would.

Hamidm do you come from a family of bhaands? if u are too agnlicised bhaands are the travelling mendicants who sing,dance and tell stories and entertain people in the villages

you really remind me of them, also u are quite a profesional did u learn it at your father's feet

Zeemax sahib,

(FATA is NOT part of Pakistan at all, but fully independent to govern itself since the very outset. )

So why is the GoP violating Waziristan's sovereignty?

Borivilli mian,

The Pushtoon fighters you are referring to have been fighting the Indian Army for the last 17 years else India would have crushed the "flower-sellers" ages back. As far as "gloating" is concerned let me just show you the mirror. Who was gloating till a few years back when the jihadis were bleeding the Indian Army in J&K? Who was boasting about spreading the jehad to rest of India? It is now when they have started "blowing back" that these mujahideen have suddenly become "havayoons" and "malaoons".

These jihadis do not mean any good to anyone in the subcontinent either Injuns or Pakis, Hanuds or Muslas.

Regards

#221 Posted by borivili_express,

Yes ... but just a small elaboration.

There're more than a million men in arms in FATA, and that figure represents the heavy weapons and automatic weapons. If one were to count just a pistol or a rifle, every male over the age of 13 has one. It is part of their initiation rites to manhood.

So, lakhs would be a better figure for the people who are available for the fight.

#219 Posted by majumdar,

I presume you are referring to the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan (IEW).

No no .... a lot of people even inside Pakistan do not understand Fata's status. To put it simply, it is like a foreign country aligned with Pakistan according to the Pakistan constitution, with Pakistan's interests protected only through 'Political Agents' who are no more than ambassadors. The only difference being that the 'Political Agents' have the power of enforcing the Frontier Crimes Regulations Act which is applicable only on the Government Property (i.e. roads etc) inside FATA.

FATA is NOT part of Pakistan at all, but fully independent to govern itself since the very outset.

also they number in the tens of thousands if not lakhs, not like the few hundred kashmiris you are used to

hindus who are gloating right now, no good will come to you eventually, these pashtun fighters will make you long for your kashmiri flower sellers.

they have a different level of hardiness and commitment and are are armed to the teeth

Zeemax sahib,

I presume you are referring to the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan (IEW). So why is the GoP occupying IEW? And if it is occupying IEW why are Pakistani citizens lecturing us on our possession of Kashmir which is a bona fide Indian province?

And waziris may have the right to form their own govt but the rest of Pakistan doesn't.

(The 300 soldiers refused to fight. There's a difference between that and surrendering.)

I can see it that way but do the former employers of these gentlemen see it that way?

Regards

Bori 210,

Using helicopter gunships and now bombers against their own people, well indiand did not do that to the pakistani inflitrators in kashmir.

For the tribals, and jihadis of pakistan, it is better to inflitrate to india than being given shehdad at their own door steps.

For a long time I have argued that the jihadis seek death, and pakistan should deliver shehdad at their own door steps. Good to see that pak rulers are listening to me.

zeemax, 216,

There is a big difference, to surrender to the tribals and to be beheaded on video and there after slaughtered three per day.

90,000 surrender and no one is slaughtered. for a pakistani to be beheaded is instead heaven, sorry we could not send any pakistani to heaven.

#213 Posted by majumdar,

We have yet to see 300 odd Indian soldiers surrender in one day flat to the Jihadis.

I'm even more surprised now. The 300 soldiers refused to fight. There's a difference between that and surrendering. Isn't it?

#208 Posted by majumdar,

Do Pakistanis (Waziristanis or otherwise) have the right to elect their own govt.

You might be surprised to learn that Waziristanis do have their own Government ... by constitution!

Yaar Borivili, one more thing. Pakistan insists that every candidate standing in the local elections in Azad Kashmir sign an undertaking promising to work for J&K's accession to Pakistan. Amanullah Khan, the JKLF chief was not allowed to contest elections because he was pro-independence. Even today if you see, all the pro-independence outfits have been marginalized to the point of extinction while those advocating merger with Pakistan are pampered and provided every kind of support. Do you still think Pakistan cares for Kashmiri aspirations?

Harish bhai,

(And Indian forces have been better behaved than their counterparts in these countries.)

Very well said. We have yet to see 300 odd Indian soldiers surrender in one day flat to the Jihadis.

Regards

Borivilli mian,

Just becuase u dont agree with my answers does not necessarily make them stupid. Kashmiris have a right to elect their own govt, do the people of Pakistan have the same right?

Yes, I do agree that Indian govt made huge mistakes in Kashmir in the past, the constant denial of Kashmiris right to elect their own representative by having free and fair elections being one of them. And that is one of the major contributory factors in the mess there.

Regards

#210 by borivili_express

....sometimes it seems they do and sometimes it seems they dont.

Yaar Borivili, the brutal truth is except for mouthing platitudes, Pakistan has done *nothing* for the Kashmiris. Heck, it even gave away a part of Kashmir to China. A few Pakis might sympathize with them and even cross the LoC to fight Indian forces, but beyond that, there hasn't really been anything. The Paki PM and President might enthusiastically take part in Kashmir Day celebrations and make emotional speeches about providing support to Kashmiris' aspirations, but when it comes to hard facts, The ISI has merely used them as a pawn to settle Pakistan's scores with India.

OTOH, India might be guilty of excesses, but by and large Kashmiris still have all the freedoms that the average Indian has. It is just that in an insurgency-racked state, excesses happen. Soldiers use heavy-handed tactics all the time. The tribal territories in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Americans in Iraq are all examples. And Indian forces have been better behaved than their counterparts in these countries. They haven't used helicopter gunships as Pakistan has done, nor have they managed to kill as many Kashmiris in 20 years as the Americans have killed Iraqis in just 6 years.

Thats a good question harishhyd (compared to majumdar's stupid answer) sometimes it seems they do and sometimes it seems they dont. But irrespective the indians dont care a fig for the kashmiris else they would have met them midway and solved this issue long ago, its been on 20 years now,I think its their vanity and hubris that stops them.

#207 by borivili_express

and dont tell me that Kashmir is the same as tribal ara or baluchistan because Indians have 700,000 troops in Kashmir, where as the entire Pak Army is 550,000

Yaar Borivili, tell us one thing. Does Pakistan care for Kashmiri aspirations? A simple yes or no would suffice. Thanks in advance.

Borivilli mian

(Kashmir is the same as tribal ara or baluchistan because Indians have 700,000 troops in Kashmir, where as the entire Pak Army is 550,000)

Pak Army has 90,000 troops in W'stan and as we all know 1 momin = 10 kafiir. So in equivalent terms Pak has 900,000 soldiers in W'stan and W'stan population (less than 1 mn) is much lower than J&K (close to 10 mn). And Injun Army's opposition is supported by a hostile neighbour (Pakistan) while Pak Army has the support of the worlds greatest coalition- US/UK/Afghanistan et al.

(Kashmiris dont even have the level of sovereignty that waziristanis enjoy.)

Kashmiri people have the right to elect their own govt, MLAs/MPs (like all other Indian states) but have no right to secede (again no other state enjoys that right either). Do Pakistanis (Waziristanis or otherwise) have the right to elect their own govt.

Regards

and dont tell me that Kashmir is the same as tribal ara or baluchistan because Indians have 700,000 troops in Kashmir, where as the entire Pak Army is 550,000

I dont know wether waziristan is justified or not, but Kashmir is because the Indian govt and public denies the aspirations for fredom of the people there

Kashmiris dont even have the level of sovereignty that waziristanis enjoy.

Borivilli mian,

So the jihadis are justified in Kashmir but not in Waziristan or in Lal Masjid.

Regards

Hamidm without getting into the rightness or wrongness of what the Jihadis are doing (and I think in Kashmir they are justified), i think it is not always appropriate to cheer on morons like arjun chutiya, how do you know Urstruly doesnt send 5 dollars to jihadis for every 1 dollar he pays the US govt (of which prob 90cents goes to basic services), where as in Pakistan he wouldnt be able to give even 1.

Have you heard of comparitive advantage?

hamidm2 mian #: " i believe in adam smith and the division of labor ....."

.....so you passionately support the american wars, however you will never go and participate in them, yourselves....nor will you encourage your children to do so......they are ok, as long as other people's kids get killed.....

......you are passionate about change in pakistan, in the direction you want, but will never go and initiate the change in that direction yourself......

......why are you so passionate about such things, yet unwilling to participate in them, yourselves?.....why is it that in your division of labor theory, you always end up with the easy task?......

as i said, passion without conviction is hypocrisy.....much like urstruly is fighting his kashmir jihads, without ever participating in them, you are fighting your american jihads, in the same way......much like urstruly wants a religious revolution in pakistan, without willing to go to pakistan, you want an anti-religious one, without willing to go there......

......nothing wrong with not going to pakistan.....everyone has a right to migrate.......but then, why talk the talk so passionately, when you are unwilling to even begin walking the walk.......

if, however, you do believe in the adam smith theory, then do you think urstruly can also use that argument......

ok i got it. the michigan defeat at the start of the season. last time i saw a michigan game (3 decades ago) they also got beat. no big deal.

ok i got it. the michigan defeat at the start of the season. last time i saw a michigan game (3 decades ago) they also got beat. no big deal.

hamidm #198 big house? i thought the big house was sing-sing prison.

romair is the god of Connections, masadi is the god of Knowledge. It is blasphemy to call them fools.

hamidm #197 they also had portraits of Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Saddam Hussein, lions, tigers and seductive females on rickshaws and busses. So that doesnt prove anything.

Re: # 197

tahmed,

.... it is nice to see that you share my contempt for romair and masadi - the two biggest fools born on god's earth ..... i knew we had something in common !

........ by the way, what happened in the big house at the start of the season ?

Re: # 195

tahmed,

...... you obviously don't know sheikh rashid - if the people of rawalpindi were hindoos they would make him a god and erect a mandir to him ........ instead they have to be content with painting his potrait on rickshaws and busses ....

sheikh rashid ki jai !

Re: # 193

romair mian (you can't hide behind bulleya),

..... i have absolutely no desire to 'fix' pakistan because i think it is not that 'broke' anyways (not yet)........ as long as i can spend my winters playing golf at the islamabad club and the local bootlegger is still in business, i am okay ..... the reason i don't like the mullahs is because they threaten my bootlegger, otherwise i have no problem if they blow themselves up in bannu or sleep with their boys in miran shah ......

..... and why do i have to fix it when sheikh rashid is doing it for me?...... i believe in adam smith and the division of labor ..... i don't mow my yard or paint my house myself - that is why god made mexicans and romanians ....... and by that i don't mean that sheikh rashid is a mexican - he is a professional politician and a damn good one .......

.... i would also advise you to stick to your knitting instead of trying to be a fool of all trades and embarassing us in front of hindoos like arjun ......

hamidm: asma jehangir I can understand as being a true inspiration and muslim in the land of the gang rapists, tin horn generals, bearded politicians and street thugs. but what is the deal with this sheikh rashid? who the hell is he (other than being a railway minister with a big mouth) and what has he done to be mentioned in the same breath as asma jehangir?

bulleye #193 writes passion without conviction is hypocrisy...

Thus speaketh the sage...gibberish, but sounding profound.

An achievement one would expect from no one other than the Exalted God of Connections!!

hamidm2 mian: ........i think the point, under question, is that why aren't you (and urstruly) in pakistan, pushing your agenda with the same passion as you (two) regularly do on this site........

why wait for others to fix pakistan, so you can retire there.......why not fix it, yourself, so others can retire there.......

passion without conviction is hypocrisy......

Re: # 191

borivili,

........ uh? what the heck are you talking about ?.... asma jehangir and sheikh rashid ARE leading the flock ..... if anything, i am part of the flock and more than happy to be led by them ......

.... sheikh rashid is my leader (as is asma jehangir) and they don't need my help - imran khan does, and i send him quite a bit of money every year even though he is fool when it comes to politics .......

Hamidm your a sick man, u tell the islamists to go lead their flock but your own flock for those whom u cheer from the US like asma jahangir and sheikh rashid u belive they dont need ur aid

ur a stinking two faced hypocrite