Musharraf’s New Ordinance Hoopla

Hamidm do you come from a family of bhaands? if u are too agnlicised bhaands are the travelling mendicants who sing,dance and tell stories and entertain people in the villages

you really remind me of them, also u are quite a profesional did u learn it at your father's feet

#224 Posted by majumdar

So why is the GoP violating Waziristan's sovereignty?

Exactly. Now you've got it. Pakistan broke its pact with the Tribal Agencies (i.e. FATA) by putting up army checkposts inside it and sending in the army. It is an invasion, and that is why tribes are fighting against it just as any other country would.

Zeemax sahib,

(So, lakhs would be a better figure for the people who are available for the fight. )

Yes there could be a million odd fighters in NWFP. But have you ever spared a thought on who would be their targets. Their first target would be fellow Pushtoon Muslims followed by Paki Muslims and then if they have any energy left the kaffirooons from across the border. They have already made life miserbale for NWFP, they will next destroy Pakistan b4 they get to do any real damage against anyone else. If not for anything as Pakistani citizen you should be concerned about these jihadis.

Regards

#220 by borivili_express

hindus who are gloating right now, no good will come to you eventually, these pashtun fighters will make you long for your kashmiri flower sellers.

Yaar Borivili, no one is gloating, but it does give you satisfaction when you see folks who are out to harm you get harmed in turn. It is human nature. The Indian Army is not there in Kashmir out of choice, it had to enter the state when violence spiraled out of control. To put things in perspective, why wasn't the Indian Army deployed in Kashmir before 1989?

#227 Posted by majumdar,

Majumdar Saheb, everyone has such a short memory. Basically, yesterday's news establishes the mindset for today and day before yesterday is forgotten history. And so it goes on and on.

These fighters were told soviets were Kafirs and to fight them along with Usama Bin Laden and they together kicked soviets' butts. Now when the Americans occupied the same country, they were told not to fight the americans. And when they didn't listen - because to them the soviets and the americans are the same i.e. kafirs - Pakistanis started to bomb them and sent their army into their territory. Now, the Tribals believe Pakistanis have apostated and are Kafirs as well because they are helping Kafirs against Muslims.

That is sound logic.

#229 by zeemax

These fighters were told soviets were Kafirs and to fight them along with Usama Bin Laden and they together kicked soviets' butts. Now when the Americans occupied the same country, they were told not to fight the americans.

Zee bhai, states have no permanent friends or foes, which is why yesterday's friend can be today's foe and vice-versa. But the general public thinks differently as you elaborated in the case of the Mujahideen/Taliban/Al Qaeda vis-a-vis the Soviet/American presence in Afghanistan. Which is why it is dangerous to play up public sentiment as Pakistan and America did. Today those same Mujahideen who were once regarded as saviours are the villains and have become a headache for both the Yanks and Pakis. India did the same with Bhindranwale and the LTTE and discovered the danger of playing with fire. Though late and after much damage, it has become wiser and now has cut off all links with the Sikh nationalists and the LTTE and even declared them terrorist organizations. But it seems Pakistan and the US still believe they can milk these organizations to serve their purpose.

The point here is that if states to use need military force, they had better use their Army, which is what it is for in the first place. But when you use non-state actors whose motivations are entirely different from yours, you're asking for trouble.

"The point here is that if states to use need military force...."

should read:

"The point here is that if states need to use military force....."

Zeemax sahib,

(Now, the Tribals believe Pakistanis have apostated and are Kafirs as well because they are helping Kafirs against Muslims.That is sound logic.)

The original jehad against USSR ended in 1988 and that shud have been the end of story- the Pashtoon jihadis would have gone back to what they do best- kill each other which is what they basically did after 1988 and for much of the first half of 1990s. It is then that the great white hope- Bhootni and her team- got into the act deciding to utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir and in Afghanistan. The rest you guys know anyway.

But tell me one thing. Who will the jihad benefit? It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society without giving the jihadis what they want- power in Pakistan or a Nizam e Mustafa. In short pave way for India's domination of Southern Asia. In a sense my friend YLH's crib about the jihadis being "the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak" parting gift to Pakistan will come true.

Regards

majumdar/harish_hyd.

It appears both of you believe Pushtoons were involved in the Kashmir Jihad through the references to 'non-state' actors and 'utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir'. This is completely false. The tribals were never involved with the Kashmir issue (except in 1948 and later Kargil which were both full-scale invasions on the behest of Pakistan), and all the Kashmir Jihad infiltrators were/are Punjabis or AJK Kashmiris.

So, all this thing that Indians say re 'blow back' for own doings is completely untrue. Pakistan never used Tribals in the Kashmiri insurgency.

Tribals are a different nation, even distinct from Pushtoons of the Pakistani settled areas, and have been completely loyal to Pakistan so far as per their pact at the time of partition. Even now, their agenda is NOT to gain power in Pakistan but simply for Pakistan to stop meddling in its affairs regarding tribals' support to Taliban in war in Afghanistan.

The Lal Masjid massacre though has created a perception amongst them for Pakistan as enemy (as openly declared now by them) because many of those male/female students were from their tribes, and they will exact fitting revenge from those responsible. Apart from that, they are the least interested in Pakistani power games.

... as for "It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society", yes probably it will. Unless Pakistani administration wises up and leaves them alone as per the original pact with them. They have their own foreign policy, and Pakistan cannot impose its participation in WOT upon them.

I thin Indians are right there were a couple of pashtuns in Kashmir but this i just another order of magnutude

zeemax,

the headlines read : N. Waziristan: 45 troops martyred, 150 militants killed in 3 days

according to geo and other paki newspapers the miscreants/militants/taliban are simply being killed like ordinary hindoos and the kafirs of mecca while our brave soldiers are being martyred like the forces of medina ...... doesn't this bother you ? ..... it makes me happy - very, very, happy - because i have always advocated that these people should be exterminated like the vermin that they are ....... if you remember, i had proposed dropping a couiple of twenty thousand pound bombs on jamia hafsa to make sure that these women don't go out and breed more jihadis .... but no, nobody wanted to listen to me then .....

.... as for all this tribal bullshit - we should take a page out of the hindoo book - the way they have handled their tribesmen in the northeast is the way to go ...... there is no room for primitive tribalism in a a modern state ..... and i say this despite tht fact that many of my relatives live in and around batagram .....

#236 Posted by hamidm2,

Yeah only the DG ISPR is using this martyr terminology. All the press otherwise is using "Jaan Behaqe'd" for all. Do you only listen to ISPR?

Besides the figures are all wrong. The casualties have been equal on both sides plus 30 paramilitary have been abducted, and the entire Mehsud Scouts has refused to fight.

As for the tribesmen, if you leave them alone in their area they will not bother you. Otherwise your prospects are grim.

But dreaming is not a crime :)

The Havayooon and Malaoon in the tribal area are attempting to set up an "Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan" in the tribal area.

If the majority of the tribal population supports this, then the Pakistan government should not use force to stop independence and find a political settlement to this issue.

However, in those areas there is no civilized way to find out what the majority of the population wants. Assumption is that most of the tribal still support Pakistan and a small group of Arab inspired maliks, Khans, a group of drug smugglers, poppy cultivators, and Heroin distributors are behind this push for Islamic emirate of Wazirstan.

On the face of it, it appears to be a collaboration of the criminals of that area and I am sure that they are supported by some elements in the army. We know that the army has always tolerated and in some cases allowed these drug pushers in Pakistani politics for the sake of building support for the army takeovers in Pakistan.

I think the Pakistani government should allow for a referendum in those areas and seek how badly these havayoon and the malaoons want the Islamic Emirate of Wazistan.

If these malaoons want separation, then imo, no force or power can keep them in Pakistan for long and it is best to find a peaceful workable solution with them.

#238 Posted by HP,

So I see you're willing to allow them to have a 'sanctuary' for Usama and Zawahiri and Mullah Umar as long as a 'referendum' supports it ...

LoL ... it really appears the 'malaoon' liberals have wet their pants quite badly :)

From a civilian perspective, a continued war in the tribal areas creates a justification for the continued army involvement in the Pakistan state under the excuse that they need to fight these Havayoons and malaoons.

The war in that area benefits the army and the army would attempt to continue this war too.
The civilians in Pakistan should ask for a referendum in those areas and if the majority decides for an independent Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan, then let that become a buffer between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Pakistan should understand that it is time for Pakistan to back off from its strategic and political positions in Afghanistan. This maybe a temporary strategic retreat(as Pakistan cannot forever extract itself from that area) but eventually it will strengthen Pakistan in the Central Asian political drama that will continue for another five decades or so.