Communists and the Making of Pakistan

Re: # 104
Agreed, I think that was extremely well articulated and gave a remarkable insight within few lines. The solution has a problem but intentions are noble. I think other than a bloody revolution, which communists think is absolutely essential to root out the status quo and change the ownership of means of production, another problem is recommendation of a powerful state. Any state with absolute powers is always likely to abuse it and the rulers would do anything to cling to the rule. Marx was of the view that state with the passage of time would wither away. It did wither away in Russia and East Europe but leaving capitalists in charge.

Re: # 104 I wonder Indian comunists are bent on destruction and violence, like jehadis who are making havoc for islamic revolution like here for bloody socialist revolution or they are tamed by local market forces ?

Re: # 104

well said dulla

its not just about the bloody revolution, its about saving lot of blood also.

UK and other European countries wouldn't have created welfare states without the threat of socialist revolution breathing on their necks.

US would not have dared to act like a mad dog it is now and done this to Iraq, had USSR been in the same position it was few deecades ago.

Re: # 91

kaal bhai, you can spend a life time in understanding those constructs to find out that they are infact not as monstrous as they sound to some or some of the communists have made them look like.

I can reccommend few books, which can help you:

1. A series of Introductory booklets on the ideology by Shiv Verma (who was Bhagat Singh's close ally)
2. Roots of Historical Materialism by Bhag Singh MA
3. History, Mythology and Historical Materialism by Bhag Singh Sajjan

This should be enough to start with, but the problem s that you may have to get these books from India and possibly learn Punjabi as well as the last book was published only in Punjabi.

Let me tell you something intersting about the no.3 book, which was also called 'Yellow Book' whwen published in 1980s and was written by one of the most learned comrades from Punjab who was contemporary of HS Surjeet but was never interested in any post etc. He spent his entire life like our Rishis of gthe old tradition, managed his diabetes andother physical problems on his own with ayurved or homeopathy. He conducted party schools and taught the basic philosophy of communism. His book dealt with the evolution of the ideology throughout Indian mythology and history. Interestingly, his own party, for which he spent his whole life, banned the book, You may still get it from some old CPM comrade who is not affected by the petty politics.

Re: # 76 Mantolives:"Can you quote me your source please."

Here is the source

http://www.khalidhasan.net/fridaytimes/2004-10-15.htm

Enjoy!

kaal, you are right... communists in general have their hearts in the right place and their larger view of how things should be in terms of justice, equality etc are fine things..even if a bit idealistic, it is good to have ideals to aim than not have one. problem I see with communists is their solution is all out revolution with absolutely upside down system compared to existing whatever. my few dozen gray hairs tell me that incremental change/progress is easier to achieve, with less bloodhsed and suffering and has better chances to sustain in the long run than an all out bloody revolution for exreme utopian change - utopia that will require crude force and authority to implement and sustain.

on the other hand the whole idea of communism, marxist left have played and can continue to play a positive role without achieving the revolution. it is acting as a counter weight to the right and retrogressive forces and encourages reforms for work place equality etc. inspite of occasional seemingly anti-nationalist blunders like support of TNT, opposition to nuke deal etc, overall they are a positive influence...until they turn fundamentalists and then they become hard to distinguish from the cave dwellers of tora bora.:-)

Communists are good people trapped in the swamp of bad theory. As good people, their rank and file tend to have right instincts. With bad theory, their leaders come up with naive/terrible solutions.

Indian communists including their successor communists in Pakistan were imo, a naïve bunch. Their ability to understand problems is remarkable but they fail to articulate a proper response or find a solution to the problem they very intelligently identify.

Throughout the 20th century people saw that the communist became a victim of their own ineptness in dealing with the day to day political issues. Big picture and all that are fine but a political party must be able to identify opportunities to further its cause.

Recently, in India, the communist again fell from the grace for the same reasons that had destroyed their politics in 1940s. They had correctly identified the problems with the India-US nuke agreement, but they were never able to offer alternates or make suggestions that would have helped the Sonia Manmohan sarkar present alternate proposals to the US government for a revised agreement.

Politics is not just opposition. The real politics is coming up with solutions that attract the people at large. The communists’ mindset in both countries had been that of opposition. Solutions and alternates are the keys in promoting political goals especially in chaotic political conditions that existed in India before the Partition.

The communists in 1940s were not sure of the solutions to the quagmire that was developing in India due to the conflict between the Congress and the ML. Their first instinct was to stay with the congress. Ideologically, they were closer to the Indian National Congress and there was not a single communist in India who did not believe in united India. Still the CPI, very late in the game, came out with a resolution that was contrary to its long held support of a united India. Their support of Pakistan was based on a desire to not prolong the communal rift and put it behind as quickly as possible by accepting the partition rather than resisting it, which in their opinion would have caused more bloodshed.

Incidentally, the communalist within the majority Hindu community also reached the same conclusion. Even Gandhi was convinced that the situation would get out of hand. The motive was to get the independence quickly before the British leave India without any resolution of the communal conflict. The idea was that if the British left without resolving the communal issues, the united India would see a bloodbath the likes of which were never seen before in the human history.

India did see a bloodbath but it sure was smaller in scale than expected and perhaps all political parties in India heaved a collective sigh of relief when the communal riots did not cross the Punjab borders.

I also think that Yasser’s conclusions about the communist role and ability to control events in Punjab are a bit exaggerated. Communist had very little influence in Punjabi Muslim intelligentsia. Most of their membership in Punjab consisted of Hindu and Sikhs of east Punjab. There were very few Hindu or Sikh communist in the western Punjab which was Muslim dominated. A few Muslims who were part of the communist party lived in Lahore and one Dada Amir Haider, I believe, was from Pindi.

Lokraj, no doubt communists had a softer corner towards creation of Pakistan...may be more prominent members were not happy but general feeling seems that it might help bring revolution faster hence good or OK to happen..let feudals divide themselves now, we can always put the 2 countries together after revolution. what happened later probably made comrades in India feel guilty (while Pakistani comrades are still licking their wounds on their lifeless bodies after 2 generations). My feeling is punjabi comrades' bold opposition to Khalistanis was partly due to the realization of their failure in 1947...it was a repeat that they couldn't afford to let happen again..secondly communist cadre was many times stronger in 80's than it was in 40's. it probably could not give fight in 40's that it gave now.

correction: deepak chopra was not comrade...was not he son of lala jagat narayan?

The communal-minds (led by the vamp Jinnah) and the ever-opportunist Communists, they made good bedfellows – and who am I to call them strange?! Clearly, it is no coincidence that both these groups loved to lick British boots and bad-mouth the Indians who sought freedom. Their kinds cherish each other’s company so much even after all that time – as in Afghanistan in 1979, Chechnya now, and in countless other places. By all means, they should spend as much time in each other’s company as it pleases them – as long as they both just stay the heck out of Amrikka! It is too bad that the Indian Communists missed a chance to accompany Jinnah to the land of the Pure – perhaps such a grievous error can still be corrected for the present day Indian communists who would be no doubt welcomed with open arms, perhaps even with a bear-hug, by the Pakistani mullahs. They would truly make a “Ram-milai-joDee”!

Re masanamuthu #98

[The truth is Rajaji / Periyar had no bones in the Pakistan / Partition stuff.. So they can coolly support Jinnah's demands whereas the North Indian Congress leaders cannot.]

Rajaji was an astute observer of the political scene. By the early 1940s, he had seen enough of the intransigence of Jinnah-bhai that he realized that the mad man was bent upon Pakistan and would not stop at mass murder to get it. It had nothing to do with not having any bone in the Partition stuff and everything to do with having a brilliant intellectual approach to politics.

E V Ramaswamy Naicker thought that if the British conceded any partition demand, that would automatically support his wet dream of Dravidastan. He had no principles or scruples, a trend that continues in today's Tamil Nadu.

Rajaji suggested that the Congress accept the inevitability of Pakistan. He didn't say anything about giving Jinnah everything he or Chaudhri Rehmat Ali wanted.

E V Ramswamy Naicker (Periyar -- in reality, Thanthai Periyar [Father Big Man] to you and people of your ilk) supported Pakistan because he thought that would give him leeway in getting a Dravidastan.


:-) Harimau, how r u?.

whether dravidastan or gangulistan, life is good now.. that's all that matters.. have some fun.

The truth is Rajaji / Periyar had no bones in the Pakistan / Partition stuff.. So they can coolly support Jinnah's demands whereas the North Indian Congress leaders cannot.

CreateAlpha

That seems like an interesting possibility....thanks.

(communism seems like a watered-down, much flawed, near childish form of religion. No wonder it died so soon everywhere except in India)

kaal yaar, since you like religion so much..try weaving that into religon as well. It works just the same...

LOL GT bhai, but people like my uncle ACTUALLY believe in their UTOPIA, without really knowing anything about it.

Utopia and ignorance (and guilt, as createlpha suggests) must go hand in hand. Yet for those at the bottom of the ladder, the desperation of their situation/needs might lead to real passionate pursuit of utopianism. The less one knows, or the 'guiltier' one is, the more one believes.

At the top of the ladder, a majority of the leadership might well understand these things as little more than brute powerplay.

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drsahib, I would really appreciate if you could explain where my understanding of communism (in terms of those six elements) might be mistaken. Thanks.

#93 Posted by CreateAlpha:

Good one!