Whither Pakistan? The Presidential 'Election' and Beyond

hamidm is an armchair anaylst--happy to see OTHER people's sons and daughters kill and be killed. Typical neocon cowardice.

hamidm mian# :"facilitate regime change in iran - bombing the nuclear installations and a complete economic embargo would be a good start ........"

...even the most ardent neo-cons have hidden themselves, with their heads in shame....bush and cheney are the butt of jokes and have destroyed their parties future....

yet, you keep gonig on and on.......

i think their should be a law, which bans individuals who passionately support policies, which have proven destructive and useless, and refuse to eat crow........

Re: # 76

naqshbandi,

......... how long do you think the regime in iran is going to last ? ..... it is no different than the communist regime in the former ussr and you can already see it slipping along with the head scarfs of the women on the streets of tehran ...... any ideology that suffocates man's natural desire for freedom and personal liberty is bound to fail ......

.... the free world, led by the us, must do whatever it can to facilitate regime change in iran - bombing the nuclear installations and a complete economic embargo would be a good start ........

#77 Posted by teshah on October 17, 2007 5:37:56 pm

'...in fact no common day or night in the global world but only a passing shadow.'

What a perspective! Wah wah!

Re: # 73

Urstruly

Welcome dear I was missing you for a long. But I am sorry you did not get my point. I agree with you that moon-sighting should not ,as a matter of course, be made an issue at all and it was actually not so till the bigoted mullah like Munib started trying to impose their holy writ by blowing up and exploiting this issue.

May Allah save Islam from the Mullah like Munib who speaks out lies like a demi-god, a god who does not know that there is in fact no common day or night in the global world but only a passing shadow.

Regards

Manto,

Eventually a time will come --as it did in Iran--where the common man--the man who does not know or care of the Karachi Stock Exchange--will have had enough and will decide that Islam is the answer. At that time if--or rather when--Allah in His Wisdom --sends the elusive 'charismatic religious leader'--you will see the Inqilab e Mustafavi insha allah.

Asif I am on vacation but I thought I'd drop a line between SMSes and emails.

There will be no Islamic revolution.
Musharraf has indeed strong armed his way through a crisis of his own choosing but now more and more people I come across are increasingly apprehensive of chaos and uncertainty that will come from Musharraf's sudden elimination from the scene.

The day Mush was "re-elected" KSE 30 crossed 17000 and KSE 100 hit an all time high.

The businessman is very cautious and extremely pro-Mush and pro-shaukat. Without funds and hartals by businesses big and small no revolution has a chance I am afraid.

As for charismatic religious leaders ... That is as big a joke as your claim that Meher Ali Shah raised the pen without touching it.

Pakistan is run by the hidden hand... The hidden hand will take care of that which goes against its interest.

Re: # 73

simply brilliant ! ....... i have been hearing this fcukin argument for the last forty years ........ as the prophet (pbuh and his camel) said, we are an illiterate people ....... it is true even today

....a couple of years ago i went to the headmaster of my daughter's school to ask him if he could make sure the teachers did not give any homework or have any test on eid .......... he sighed and said he would be more than happy to do it if we could decide when eid was ...... i told my daughter to clebrate hannuka instead .......

MOON-SIGHTING

Naqshbandi, teshah, mfrajel:

I hope the following will address concerns of all of you

Lately, I have been thinking that we (I am referring to Muslims only) are un-necessarily making a big deal out of the issue of moon-sighting and that of having multiple Eids. If we look a little deep into the matter, it in fact works out very well in favor of Muslim community everywhere.

Consider this: There are three possible ways, which are currently in practice to moon-sighting in order to celebrate Eid, and Ramadan etc., which are as follows:

1. Moon-sighting locally:

This is a unanimously accepted universal way of moon-sighting among Muslims. There are no two opinions about this method. This method has been authenticated by both Qura'n and Hadith. The deviation from this method becomes inevitable if the moon could not be sighted locally, due to weather, part of hemisphere where that locality is located, or any other reason. In that case one of the two following two methods is used.

2. Moon-sighting via calculations;

This method is also authenticated by at least one hadith. According to this Hadith, a group of people, presumably learned ones of Bani Israel, approached Holy Prophet (pbuh) and asked him about the way they (Muslims) would start Ramadan or Eid. They inquired whether Muslims used calculations or depended upon the moon-sighting. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied in these words "we are illiterate people, so we just see the moon with our eyes (and start eid or Ramadan)". According to this Hadith it is quite clear that that the permissibility of calculations was not in question, but the ability to do the calculations was in question.

3. Following Saudi Lunar Calendar:

This method is also authenticated by Ahadith. This method can be used where moon-sighting could not be done locally, and also reliable calculated method is not available. This method was typically adopted by the early expatriates from Muslim world who migrated to West and farther in Northern hemisphere where days and nights are unusually long or short. Saudis themselves maintain a Lunar calendar for all government and business affairs which is based on calculations. Hence any day in any year in any century is predictable just as Gregorian calendar. The authentication of this method comes from this hadith: This hadith tells us that Holy prophet (pbuh) allowed us the testimony of two people of good character who traveled from as far as a distance that would be covered by a camel in an over night journey. Holy Prophet (pbuh) even said that if the testimony came later in the day up until Zuhr (noon), when people were fasting, they should break their fast and celebrate eid. So a simple ijtehaad will allow us to extend this situation, given the modern day means of transport and communication to include a wider area. However, there are also limitations to this method. For example, on a given day moon passes over Earth forming a "belt of visibility' over a certain area, depending on the time-zone. This belt is geographically well defined. So Pakistan and Afghanistan, though are adjacent countries, might fall into two different "belt zones", hence they might have two different sighting zones.

As one can see all three methods are authentic "Sunnah" of Holy Prophet (pbuh); It is the will of Allah to maintain every aspect of the Sunnah alive till the End of the Days come. It is just like some people pray while clasping their arms, and some don't, because Holy prophet (pbuh) has prayed in both ways. Some of us follow one way and the other the other way. As a Muslim our duty is to educate fellow Muslims so that they could be more tolerant of the ways of their fellow brethren.

Another challenge to the religious leader is when they cannot confirm a Eid day, how are they sure that it is Allah who is THE GOD and mohammed is his prophet? How can they claim other religion to be misleading when they cant even agree on this simple matter.

Re: # 70

This is a good example of freedom in Islam. Why cant we take it in that angle. If a muslim believes friday is Eid, but lets say its on saturday, then this is fine as that muslim "beleived" Eid to be on friday and so he is not wrong in fasting on saturday. Religion is all about belief and thats how everybody is evaluvated on judgement day on whether he is true to his belief.

Re: # 69

Naqsh

You say:

"about the different eids--i don't see the big deal. Difference of opinion is a mercy for this ummah."

But what about this:

"The problem here is not with an obsession with synchronicity but the belief that fasting on Eid day is a cardinal sin. Three Eids this year have ended up making sinners of us all as in every past year, maybe cancelling our accumulated piety in the month of Ramadan."

There is an authentic Hadees that only Iblees fasts on the day of Eid. So what do you say about those who fast on the day of Eid?

Is not Mufti Muneeb lying when he says, "Shawwal ka chand kahein nahein dekha geya" when half the Muslim world is celebrating Eid."

Who are the Iblees then?

about the different eids--i don't see the big deal. Difference of opinion is a mercy for this ummah.

Arjun,

Re:#50

(here's the real story behind the 300 surrender monkeys..they didn't "refuse" to fight their fellow muslims...the surrender monkeys surrendered without firing a shot.)

Most likely it was not a case of surrender. It was a simple case of defection/mutiny. Which probably is worse.

Regards

#63 Posted by Naqshbandi,

Perhaps true but they've never attacked a sufi shrine so far. Wouldn't be a bad idea though :)

#58 Posted by Naqshbandi,

It was formally announced by the NS secretariat in London a few days ago.

Re: # 64
Naqsh Mian you seem to have deliberately overlooked the query made in my post at serial #41. May I know the reason for disappointing me?

Meanwhile kindly let us have your learned comments on an editorial of Daily Times of 14.10.07 reproduced hereunder:

"Drat, three Eids again!

As yet another example of our Islamic “literalism”, we have observed three Eids this year again. Pakistan’s top cleric, the sombre-faced Mufti Munibur Rehman – his name actually means “warner” – first criticised the Saudi authorities for deciding the Eid day without any rules, then declared Eid in Pakistan on Sunday (today). The Saudis announced their Eid on Friday, which led to some Saudi-influenced mosques in London to declare it in unison, and some not so influenced declared it for Saturday. This year Mufti Munibur Rehman was lucky not to have fallen victim to the wrath of his fellow-priests. Some years ago, when he insisted too much on the “rules of sighting”, some ulema from the NWFP had roughed him up!

Muslim scientists have claimed again and again that they can give a mathematically perfect date of appearance of the Shawwal moon many years in advance. They have said that Muslim calendars can actually lay down the Eid days accurately. But no one listens to them: the rule is to see the moon with the bare eye. It is possible that Saudi Arabia has adopted the scientific method without admitting it. But Pakistan uses the weather bureau watch-points for the purpose. Did Pakistan arrive at a consensual Eid? No. After the Saudi announcement, many parts of the NWFP declared Eid on Friday. Some areas settled for Saturday while the rest of the country observed Eid on Sunday. The problem here is not with an obsession with synchronicity but the belief that fasting on Eid day is a cardinal sin. Three Eids this year have ended up making sinners of us all as in every past year, maybe cancelling our accumulated piety in the month of Ramadan."

(Ed 2, Daily Times, 14.10.07.)

khayr mubarak!

Re: # 62

because the Wahabis consider the Sufis (and "Barelvis") as mushriks and are well known for their hatred of Sufi dargahs.
That's why!

I hope it wasn't them though.

Re: # 59 Naqsbhandi,

Why would Wahabis bomb Ajmer? It could have been Phatan Tribal Thinking in Pakistan where they carried out bombing at Nishtar Park but somehow, elements operating in India are 'muslims' and not divided into sects ( that happens when a certain group is in minority ).
btw, I am a direct relative of Sheikh Salim Chishti of Fatehpur Sikri , India where not just muslims of all sects come down but non-muslims comes down to put chadards and duas . I am a Wahabi Convert but respect the Sufi Tradition.
Regards and Eid Mubarak

I say give me Baba Bulle Shah any day over these converters like Ganj Bakshs, Moinuddins etcetera...Baba Bulle Shah saw the goodness in people and unity of humanity and warned against the perfidy of religious bigots...the other so called Sufis just played the numbers game...only gullible idiots like Hindus could be suckered into the shenanigans of these 'godly' men

wow, 90 lakhs kafirs to Islam...amazing feat really...by all accounts, Mr. Chishti seems to have lived in India for around 50 years at a liberal estimate...this translates into 438,000 living hours in Hindustan...of this lets assume that he spent 1/3rd of the time eating, sleeping, meditating, raising a family, praying etc....this leaves 292,000 living hours for proselytizing purposes, which again is quite a liberal estimate to do Mo's work in India...so 90 lakh conversions in 292,000 hours is roughly 31 people in one hour...or roughly 1 kafir per 2 minutes

must say Naqsh bhai, seems like a fast food approach to conversion if you ask me. Either that, or the Chishti PR machine seriously goofed up their math.

as i said in my article, if the SC decides against Mushy he will declare an emergency or martial law.

zeemax,

where did you hear/read about NS's return?

paddu,

I condemn those who bombed the blessed shrine of Khwaja e Khwajagan Hazrat Muinuddin Hassan Chishti Sanjari al ma'ruf ba Gharib Nawaz. They must have been Wahabis or Indian agents as no Sunni would ever bomb the sacred shrine of arguably the greatest saint of Hindustan who himself converted 90 lakh Hindus to Islam.

Now the Pakis are blasting indian malls so that hindu idolators finally accept the 'supremacy' of "their" Islam!!!

Re: # 43

Pakis have tried their best to incite indian muslims to follow the path of violent jehad and shahadat in fighting against hindu idolaters that is taught to them in their school books - poor indian muslims do not think that TNT or jehad is part of their "Islam" - yet Paki muslims want to define for them what their Islam should be and hurl scorn on them for not being Pak 'muslims' as per their Pakistani Islam.
When the scorn does not work they bomb their sufi dargahs trying them to scare them into accepting that ibaadat at dargahs is kufr.

Re: # 43

Pakis have tried their best to incite indian muslims to follow the path of violent jehad and shahadat in fighting against hindu idolaters that is taught to them in their school books - poor indian muslims do not think that TNT or jehad is part of their "Islam" - yet Paki muslims want to define for them what their Islam should be and hurl scorn on them for not being Pak 'muslims' as per their Pakistani Islam.
When the scorn does not work they bomb their sufi dargahs trying them to scare them into accepting that ibaadat at dargahs is kufr.

Re : Kabuli # 52

“non-burkhaed women on the streets and shopping areas in Liberty, were very pretty...moreover, they would look straight at us while I was checking 'em out... “

Good God kabuli! That was a full figured Pakistani male after a shower and shave. Men wear salwar kurta in those parts.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: hamdim2 # 51

You have a right to your opinion, you can decide who you consider a Muslim, and who you consider good looking. All I am saying is I don't think you have to be hairy to be beautiful and nuts to be Muslim.

Regards,

Faruk

re: hamidm2 chacha

I think Pakis should be divided per geography when it comes to looks...based on my travels to Pakistan and my interactions with Pakis in the US and UK, let me elicit my opinion while maintaing that there surely must be exceptions:

lets start with La hore...inspite of what the name might imply, Lahori women indeed are gorgeous....I even saw one lady police constable who was striking...maybe it was putting things in relative...'cause almost all others were mighty sore on the eyes...but generally speaking, the non-burkhaed women on the streets and shopping areas in Liberty, were very pretty...moreover, they would look straight at us while I was checking 'em out...none of that ridiculous sharm and modesty bull...I loved the eye contact...I was very impressed...the Lahori women I come across in the US are at least 8/10 too...but in the US for whatever reason, their male companions are almost always, without fail, butt ugly...I could never fathom why...real delicate knockouts would be with these burly, unwashed, stinky. lumbering men in shopping malls...and even during conversation with the aforementioned stinkies, they would cower and lower their eyes without ever joining in the conversation...quite a contrast with their sisters in Lahore

Karachi women on the other hand are a completely different story looks wise...they are almost always scrawny and their skin and eyes lack any zest or spring...yet, they are convinced for whatever reason that they are drop dead gorgeous even with the clearly discernable layers of paint on their skin...and like faruk bhai has said, quite a few of them sport luxurious moochs...their demeanor however is inversely proportional to their looks...they are very talkative and intelligent...at least the ones in the US

I have never seen a Peshawar or an NWFP woman...do men reproduce asexually in the North West regions of your country?...do they not need the opposite sex?...I am not convinced they exist...I thought I would encounter one on account of my Pathan friend in high school in New Jersey...I went to his house many times to play pirated video games brought from the Dara...but never saw the creatures repleniishing us with delicious kebabs from some dark, mysterious yonder

As for Balochis, I have never met a Balochi man, much less a Balochi woman...why is it that this seemingly endangered species is not more prevalent among the throngs of Pakis one finds at Indian cultural events?...come to think of it, I have never met one Paki Hindu or Paki Christian...ever...do these people not emigrate?...they must really love Pakistan and probably refuse to leave...good for them.

but you are right hamidm2 chacha...the only good things Pakis have going for them are the non-burkhaed women in Lahore with the ravishing eyes.

faruk,

.... you had your chance in '47 to remain part of the ummah - we do not consider you to be a muslim .....you guys are worse than.... than .... ahmedis! ..... if i were you, i would seriously consider reverting back to the hindooisim ........ you cannot run with the macacas and hunt with the hounds ......

... sorry, but no eid mubarak for you .... happy diwali, maybe - that is if you guys stop cheering for the paki cricket team next time it comes to madras ....

#47 Posted by zeemax on October 14, 2007 3:29:56 am


here's the real story behind the 300 surrender monkeys..they didn't "refuse" to fight their fellow muslims...the surrender monkeys surrendered without firing a shot.

BTW, real classy of the paki army and mushy to leak these when the surrender monkeys are still being held..almost as bad as abandoning the bodies on kargil...

8 kidnapped Army officers to face music on release
Major penalty of dismissal from service may be awarded

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: Eight military officers including one lieutenant colonel, who were kidnapped by the tribal Taliban along with 240 other military men in August this year, will be facing immediate proceedings of court martial in a military court when freed.

Scandalous inside details of their capture have finally started unfolding as these military men did not fire a single shot while being kidnapped by the militants in the South Waziristan Agency.

This would be for the first time that the eight officers would be produced before a military court on release by the militants ever since the army launched its action in the tribal areas a couple of years back to fight “extremists” and “terrorists”.

The sources said only two officers of the regiment, which was taken hostage by the Taliban, would be spared as they were on leave. Otherwise, the rest of the officers who have been nicknamed as “chicken-hearted” will be facing serious penalties on their freedom.

A lieutenant colonel, who was actually commanding the 240 jawans and reportedly ordered them to lay down their arms before the Taliban to save his own life after a gun was placed on his head, would face the maximum penalty.

A top source claimed that these army officers are facing major penalty of dismissal from service on charges of bringing the Pakistan Army into disrepute as not a single shot was fired by them to resist the armed captors. The source claimed that these officers have actually been dismissed from their services and now simply a formality has been left to complete the process through the court martial on their return.

The source said that one of the major causes in showing disinterest in their release by the GHQ, by applying delaying tactics, was serious annoyance of the top military brass over the shameful manner in which they all simply allowed themselves to be captured without putting any resistance. These sources said by showing complete disinterest in their release for the last three months, these officers and Jawans are being given a loud and angry message by the top military brass that they had done something which was not easy to be ignored and they too should suffer some pain and misery at the hands of their captors.

“This is a clear message to these officers and Jawans that they are no more required to serve in the Pakistan Army as they did not prove themselves soldiers”.

Sources said even President General Pervez Musharraf could not stop himself from expressing his serious disappointment and anger in his interview with BBC the other day. Musharraf is said to have told the foreign media that the kidnapped army men “acted unprofessionally” which showed the level of frustration and anger among the top military brass against these officers and their Jawans.

Sources said these officers were also facing serious charges for setting a bad precedent in the history of Pakistan Army when they ‘surrendered’ before the civilian fighters within the borders of their own country and made the institution of army a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

When contacted by The News, Director General ISPR Major General Waheed Arshad confirmed that the eight officers among others would face an inquiry on their return, before deciding their fate. General Arshad said an inquiry would definitely be held into the matter to determine the real facts. He said there is a proper mechanism within the military to determine the facts of such serious issues and award punishment to those found guilty. Pakistan Army is a professional institution and a comprehensive probe would be undertaken, he said.

When asked what kind of punishment would be given to these army men for allegedly surrendering to the Taliban elements in the tribal areas, General Arshad replied; “First, please correct yourself. This was not surrender before Taliban elements”.

When asked whether these officers would face proceedings under a court martial, General Arshad said a full-fledged inquiry would be conducted into the whole issue and this was only possible once they returned.

When asked whether these officers had been dismissed from service and now they would be formally proceeded against in the military court, General Arshad replied that he could not say anything at this stage.

Meanwhile, sources claimed that the unfolding details of the capture of these army men have shocked the top military brass. According to information available with The News, no one was ready to believe in the manner in which these military officers, along with 240 army men, were simply trapped and captured by ordinary fighters.

According to initial investigations into the incident, when the military convoy under the command of a lieutenant colonel reached a mountainous area where the road was blocked, these officers were approached by three people who offered them to clear the road. These people even arranged some chairs for the military officers and they all sat there waiting for clearance of the road.

Sources said at one stage these three agents of the Taliban told these army officers that it might not be possible to clear the road unless they bring some people from the adjacent village to help them remove the obstacles. Upon this, these officers agreed and asked them to bring some manual support from the adjacent village. These three men returned with dozens of villagers who were wearing shawls to hide their weapons.

These military officers sitting quite comfortably on the chairs, with their guns allegedly lying on the grounds, had no idea what was about to unfold. The rest of the 240 military men too were sitting in their vehicles, waiting for these villagers to do some tricks and clear the road. When the Taliban approached these officers on the pretext of knowing what had actually happened, some of them simply pulled out their guns at these “relaxing officers” and told them to order their subordinates to surrender.

The officer leading the whole military convoy, when pushed with the gun, simply asked his 240 military men to drop their guns. These Taliban did not waste time in collecting the dropped weapons of the army men and took all of them into their custody after what the report called “a humiliating surrender”.

Sources said the news of capture of such a large number of army men by civilian fighters had a very negative impact on the mindset and approach of the rest of the officers and military officers serving in the tribal areas. That is why now strict punishment would be awarded to these army officers and Jawans for bringing the military into disrepute as an institution. Their act also boosted the morale of the Taliban fighting the Pakistan Army in the tribal areas.

Re: hamdim2 #45

“........ no eid mubarak for you ! “

It take a lot for a good Muslim to say that to anyone, I guess they did not let you drink this eid.

What can I say I just don't share your sense of beauty. Its just like it is with the veggie eaters, they get the veggies and I get the meat.

A toast to your good health and I hope you get your sense of humor back,

Faruk

Whither Pakistan, the author asks. Most likely, it will become a huge parking lot with sand melted into glass by the heat of nuclear weapons if the trend described in this article continues.

From today's Los Angeles Times:

Terrorists in training head to Pakistan

By Dirk Laabs and Sebastian Rotella, Special to The Times
October 14, 2007
ULM, GERMANY -- As Al Qaeda regains strength in the badlands of the Pakistani-Afghan border, an increasing number of militants from mainland Europe are traveling to Pakistan to train and to plot attacks on the West, European and U.S. anti-terrorism officials say.

The emerging route, illuminated by alleged bomb plots dismantled in Germany and Denmark last month, represents a new and dangerous reconfiguration. In recent years, the global flow of Muslim fighters had shifted to the battlefields of Iraq after the loss of Al Qaeda's Afghan sanctuary in late 2001.

"There have always been people going to Pakistan, but it is more frequent now," said a senior French intelligence official who, like others interviewed for this report, spoke on condition of anonymity. "There is a return. It is a cycle. . . . And you have the attractive phenomenon that all the big chiefs of Al Qaeda are there."

Unlike Iraq, where foreign fighters plunge quickly into combat, recruits in Pakistan are more likely to be groomed for missions in the West. Aspiring holy warriors drawn to the Pakistani-Afghan border region today include European converts and militants from Arab, Turkish and North African backgrounds, investigators said.

"Pakistan worries me more than Iraq," a top Belgian anti-terrorism official said. "It's true that Iraq scares them a bit because many of them end up getting strapped up with the explosive belt right away. In Pakistan, they have time to be trained as operatives."

But the path is not straight or easy. In the German case, at least a dozen suspects meandered among Koranic schools in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria, then traveled through Iran into Pakistan. Several suspects were detained by Pakistani authorities en route to training camps, their seemingly improvised, sometimes amateurish odysseys contrasting with their alleged ferocity.

In the past, the main threat from that part of the world has involved young men from Britain's large Pakistani diaspora targeting Britain and the United States. In a half-dozen plots since 2003, British operatives trained in Pakistan, made contact with fugitive Al Qaeda leaders and returned home to strike. They succeeded in July 2005, when the first suicide bombings in Western Europe killed 52 people aboard the London transport system.

In contrast, extremists from North African and Arab immigrant communities in Germany, France, Spain and Italy have been more likely to join networks based in North Africa or the Iraq region.

But today, even small countries such as Belgium, Denmark and Switzerland have detected non-Pakistani extremists going to Pakistani training outposts, officials say. Pakistani immigrant communities in mainland Europe are smaller than Britain's, but could serve as conduits to the networks, police say.

In Spain, radical Pakistani imams and recruiters are muscling into predominantly North African mosques, a senior Spanish anti-terrorism official said. In Italy, Moroccan and Tunisian extremists communicate by Internet with extremists in Pakistan in an effort to show they are major players, an Italian anti-terrorism official said.

These new links, combined with the unprecedented plots against Germany and Denmark, show a gathering menace, the official said.

"I think that Europe has been at extremely high risk during the past six months," he said. "First, because many fighters have returned from Iraq. Second, because of the real problem of Pakistan."

In the Danish case, the leader of an alleged cell was trained by Al Qaeda in Pakistan in an apparent plot to kill Danish civilians, partly as revenge for the publication of caricatures of the prophet Muhammad, anti-terrorism officials say. In the German case, police in September arrested three suspects accused of assembling 1,500 pounds of explosive materials for vehicle bombings near U.S. military bases. The trio allegedly took orders from Islamic Jihad Union, an Al Qaeda ally based in Pakistan.

Although not a crime under German law, training in a foreign militant camp is a vital step in radicalization. The idea of the journey itself has ideological resonance, evoking Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina in the 7th century.

The German case is a reminder of the loose, almost anarchic workings of a radical underworld; extremists need time, perseverance and initiative.

"It is very organic, not planned or structured," a German intelligence official said. "It's the chaos principle, just as Al Qaeda has always been chaotic. It is about chance. No one sits somewhere in the Hindu Kush with a map and draws circles on it and says: This is where we have to send people."

The path began in this town near Stuttgart, where a mix of German converts and Arab and Turkish immigrants coalesced in an alleged extremist cell at a notoriously radical mosque. They made contact with their Egyptian imam's son-in-law, who directed the Qortoba Arabic-language school in the Egyptian city of Alexandria, intelligence officials say. Starting in 2005, the three main suspects spent time at the Alexandria school.

Even if many teachers and students are not violent fundamentalists, Arabic and Koranic schools in the Middle East are classic gateways of radicalization for European Muslims. German suspects also attended such schools in Saudi Arabia and Syria and roamed in Turkey, investigators say, drifting abroad for months at a time.

It is believed that Fritz Gelowicz, the accused ringleader, met a key contact at a Koranic school in Damascus, Syria, in 2005: a militant from the Baluchistan region of Pakistan who became the liaison to the camps, an anti-terrorism official said.

In March 2006, Gelowicz and two other suspects trained at a camp in the lawless Waziristan region, according to Pakistani and U.S. intelligence provided to German investigators. Intelligence reports indicate that a German-speaking trainer worked with some German suspects, an anti-terrorism source said.

Investigators say the training camp was near the city of Mir Ali, which has seen heavy fighting in recent days as Pakistani forces clash with Al Qaeda and Taliban militants. The suspects used a variety of contacts and routes. But they all entered Pakistan via Iran, German investigators say. In Iran, with its heavy security force presence, it seems unlikely that those forces would not spot foreign militants in transit, particularly German converts, investigators said. Iranian authorities either looked the other way or were complicit, they said.

"It's impossible for them to cross Iran without help," the Italian anti-terrorism official said. "I think it implies support from the Iranian authorities."

The attitude of Shiite Iran toward Sunni Al Qaeda has been ambiguous. Iranian authorities have arrested some Al Qaeda figures and protected others, seeing the terrorist network as a useful weapon against the West, anti-terrorism officials say.

The role of the Koranic school in Syria raises similar questions. Several European investigations have identified schools in Damascus as busy gateways where foreign fighters, posing as students, make contact with operatives who help them join the Iraqi insurgency. That recruitment and logistical activity has the permission or involvement of Syrian spies, European investigators say.

As the plot gathered momentum early this year, a second wave of associates set off from Germany. But U.S. and German police had begun intense surveillance, and Pakistani police were on alert. During the first half of the year, Pakistani authorities arrested seven militants.

Their futile treks suggest that there is no smooth and sophisticated pipeline to the camps.

On June 10, two alleged key figures in the group made it only a few miles across the Pakistani border before their capture at a bus stop. Tolga Duerbin and Houssein al Malah had met a contact in Tehran, paid $100 to a smuggler in an Iranian border town, and were carrying satellite phones and fake Afghan IDs when they were caught, according to investigators and a defense lawyer.

Pakistani police locked them in an underground prison in Islamabad, the capital, blindfolded them and grilled them about associates in Germany, said Duerbin's lawyer, Michael Sertsoez. Duerbin said American agents were present during interrogations, the lawyer said.

Like most of those arrested in Pakistan, the two were eventually deported. Duerbin is in jail in Germany, accused of recruiting the leader of the group, while Al Malah and another suspect are free and being monitored.

But police continue hunting for three accomplices thought to be on the loose in Europe and Turkey, potentially dangerous veterans of the path to Pakistan.

A bullet-proof Pope Mobile has been prepared for BB ... but that won't help her. The army is asking for safe exit out of Waziristan but that ain't coming either. There are half a dozen cases coming up for trial and SC may have somewhere to hide in some, but not all. NS has announced arrival before 30 November with Saudi go-ahead and nothing but a martial-law can stop him this time around.

That's what will happen 'beyond'. The army will kiss up (Waziristan) and kick down (rest of Pakistan).

[quote]
Out of the hundreds of thousands of religious scholars in Pakistan there are almost certainly many individuals who would fit the bill of the model Islamic ruler of which the masses dream, someone like Sultan Salahuddin: pious, ascetic, generous, just, brave, knowledgeable, independent. All that is needed is just one such individual to come forward. Given the popularity of Usama Bin Laden already in Pakistan, one can imagine the popularity of a homegrown version who also happened to follow the mainstream branch of Islam which most Pakistanis adhere to.
[\quote]

Sigh, maybe Naipaul was right, there is something in the conversion process to islam that results in basic buddhi becoming bhrashht...

Re: # 43

faruk,

.... stop trying to be more hindoo than the veggie-eaters ! ....... i have always maintained that the only thing worse than a indian hindoo is a grovelling snivelling indian muslim ......

........ no eid mubarak for you !

Re: # 43 - you must have went to a village , where you father must have migrated ! even paindo's are becoming metrosexuals!!!
eid mubarak!

Re : hamdim2 #39

I posted this on another board, I guess you missed it.

I think the Pakistanis have developed their own sense of beauty, I remember the first time I went there as a teenager, their women had more facial hair than me. The women had two types of physiques one reminded me of scare crows the other of water buffaloes. The fair complexion they talk about is the color of a lizard just out of hibernation.

The women wear burkha's and the men wear beards, that does cover a lot..I thank Allah for his small mercies.

The Pakistanis can thank him for their sheep.

I must admit some men had good figures...


Eid Mubarak,

Faruk

Ref jang #10

[i like the dinar idea..do you think india should also do the same considering it has so many muslims?]

Sigh..... for a long long time, the legal tender of the Gulf States was the Pound Sterling and the Indian Rupee. One could fly through Dubai and buy Coca Cola at the airport store with Indian rupees as I myself have done. Dhirubhai Ambani is supposed to have made a small fortune by buying up Indian rupee coins (silver) at face value when he was in Yemen and melting and selling them as bullion.

From that, we have come down to exchanging our rupee for the dinar. Truly, how far have the mighty fallen when led by effeminate faggots!

Naqsh

I have a personal question. Naqsh Mian you claim to be a Hanafi and what not. My family is also Hanafi traditionally. But I did not know much about this Hanafiism except that I considered Hanafi people to be comparatively peace-loving, tolerant, and liberal till I saw an edict attributed to Abu Hanifa in a publication of an extremist sectarian organization which said "A 'Zindeeq' (meaning, a free thinking non-believer, perhaps, as most chowkies are) must be lynched secretly as no pardon can be granted to a zindee".

My question is do you believe in this edict and what, in your view, 'zindeeq' means?

Re: # 39 hamidm2 mian' ,
eid mubarak bhai mian - do come to my place for a tea / biryani whatever warni i'm comming to the US of A in Jan/Feb.

Eid Mubarak To Chowkies,
Arjun Bhai (peace be upon you) - you reminds me of that mirror - which shows the all the bad poses ( which are sometimes true ) - Apna Khaayal Rekhain - aur Pakistan Ayen Zaroor...

Re: # 38

arjun,

... i would agree with you that most pakis - specially folks like dr israr, zeemax and your friend romair - are delusional ........... but in this case, the fact remains that any - and i repeat, any - pathetic paki looks better fed than the best fed scrawny hindoo ..... children around the world are tired of hearing the lament "think of the poor starving children in calcutta" when they refuse to eat brocolli ......

........ anyway, eid mubarak, and have some biryani and qorma on me .... that is, if your idlee starved intestines can handle real food ......

#33 Posted by jayp on October 13, 2007 4:56:21 am


US, Australia to supply 0.5m tonnes of wheat


HAHA..the pakis faked the wheat production numbers to boost the GDP numbers. Then, because of the fake numbers, they thought they had a surplus and set about exporting wheat. That led to a shortage.

Paki bubble of self-delusion collapses on the pakis..

Eid Mubarak to all CHOWKIES!

Ras

ALthough I agree mistakes were committed by criminal elements in Karachi but about 90% of the cases against MQM workers are politically motivated - Sind CJ made a point to study and he publicly recognized that they were false and made up.
Couple of Examples,
a) Dr.A.K Shams ,MNA of Bihari Origin (was once mayor of Dhaka) was accused of burning a bus and kidnapping eight police officers ( anyone who knows him , would know what he is like - plus, it was interesting to note that MNA Sahab was in London when the bus was burned and police officers kidnapped )
b) Dr.Ishrat ur Ibad is accused of killing a person - who's identity is not provided to the court *person does not exist* at a same time he is one of the co-accused in Major.Kalim Case. All Politically Motivated B.S.

at a same time - mates of Aquaris,
kills people, behead women, forces strict and outdated shria law and are heros to ponjabis and phatans!!!

LOL

Re: # 31 ponjabi mentality at best!
a) MQM fought for what MAJ stood for - ie, equal rights to all, freedom of expression, quota system and against a state which sponsored Islamic Extremists like Ship-e-Sehaba.
Thanks to MQM - Sunnia,Shias,Qadyanis,Christains,Khojas,Ismailis,Bhoris are united !!!!
While,
Folks of Aquaris is fighting for 'Islamic Republic of Emirates' in the Tribal Belt - and believes in killing of minorities, they slit throats of women just because they don't wear dupata, they lack tolerance , they lack mind and they lack clear objectives !!!!

What is beyond election,

well it could be famine. Thank the americans, otherwise as the daughter bhutto arrives, the father bhuttos words will be true, ...we will eat grass, but will have the bomb.

US, Australia to supply 0.5m tonnes of wheat
Saturday, October 13, 2007
By our correspondent

ISLAMABAD: The US and Australia have assured Pakistan that they will provide 0.5 million tonnes of wheat on emergency basis to meet the country’s domestic demand.

Official sources at both the missions at Islamabad assured Pakistan that the US alone would supply 0.5 million tonnes of wheat while Australia would also provide the commodity if the country required more in future, sources privy to the development told The News on Friday.

About procurement from the US, an official said it would be a government-to-government deal and the Trading Corporation of Pakistan (TCP) would only facilitate the affairs and then the commodity would be handed over to the Pakistan Agriculture Storage and Supplies Corporation (PASSCO).

Asif,

Here is good news for you. At last, NWFP is following the soudis in deciding to celebrate the Eid. Use of dinar to replace rupees may not be far away.

jayp al mohammed bin majid
faisalbad

from jang of today

Sources told The News that these villages had been completely vacated after Mondayís severe bombing by the fighter aircraft. Contrary to their previous practice, residents of both the tribal agencies observed Eidul Fitr on Friday as per the traditions of neighbouring Afghanistan, which follows the Saudi governmentís decision on moon sighting. Previously, they used to abide by the verdict of a Peshawar-based Ruet body, which usually meets at Masjid Qasim Ali Khan.

LOL

" where a local mullah formed this brigade "

Interesting Parrellel , with the situation of Karachi of the 90's, just swap the word mullah , with Altaf Hussain.

and

" tribals criminals are arming the local talebans "

...another parrellel to the Arming of MQMites , Sell TV ,Fridge etc and Buy Arms..

LOL

How the history has turn full circle, what was then unjustifiable has now become justifiable.

..then it was extra-judicial killings, now its .....I lost for words.

..have you ever considered , with the failure of the WRIT of STATE, and inreasing no confidence in the STATE itself, these ' Crimnal Element ', caught in a vortex of confusion, are just trying to safe themselves likewise....??

wasay Naqshbandi Bhai,
where is Tahir-ul-Qadri now adays?

The problem faced by the army in Tribal Areas is that the FC men are on the run - at a same time most of the kidnappings we hear is from the FC Men running away from there posts.
Then there's this whole situation in Swat which is very interesting where a local mullah formed this brigade - and to top it up these folks had a 'march' publicly.
During my visits to NWFP , I found this strange 'Pashtoon Nationalism' where JI and ANP are of the same view, tribals criminals are arming the local talebans to fight and the smugling is at full scale. Here I would like to point out that more then 90% of drugs are smuggled out of Afghanistan - atleast 60%-70% is transited through Balochistan and Tribal Belt - there is a criminal element involved with this mullah-brigade.
How to deal with them? a full scale army offensive!

Zeemax,

Even your president agrees with my theory. from dawn of today

Kidnapped armymen acted unprofessionally: President


RAWALPINDI, Oct 12: President Gen Pervez Musharraf has blamed a group of more than 200 soldiers for their capture by pro-Taliban militants.

“I think they acted unprofessionally in that they were trying to clear a roadblock without taking any precautionary measures,” he told the BBC.

In an interview with BBC World, he said the troops, kidnapped in August in South Waziristan near the Afghan border, should have made sure “they occupied the heights and dominated the position” before they did anything else.

The soldiers were captured without firing a shot. The militants have told the BBC that the authorities have shown “minimal interest” in getting the soldiers released.

Nasq 9

" ( ottomans) ...however even at its weakest moment in 1924 it was STILL much more of a powerful entity than turkey itself is now. the dismantling of the caliphate was the single most greatest political tragedy for muslims "

You have a fantastic sense of timing, I heard that several Armenians who managed to survive the ottomans have a different opinion.

It is time that the indians start looking at the history, try to find out how the present day pakistan became so ethnically clean. Largest human migration of 14 million people were due to TNT, you mean thsi was acheived without any large scale killings.

MARGINAL THEORY OF TERRORISM,



"Yes, there is a problem with an extremist Wahabi-type Islamic terrorist network in Pakistan but it is very small compared to how many Muslims are in Pakistan."

The above quote from the article has been heard all over the world, usually of the type, most muslims are peace loving, only a few are terrorists. In fact in every endeavor of humans it is only a few that decide the outcomes, it is only a few that have a dominant influence over the society. It is always the changes at the margins that have profound effect.

Let us take the example from economics. If the economy shrinks by say 5 percent for two years, it is a major depression, millions will lose jobs, no one talks about hey, most of the economy, that is 90 percent of it is still intact, it is only a marginal change.

Now let us take something from the social science field. The US is well recognized for its scientific achievements, well not more that 0.1 percent of the people are involved in scientific research, but it is the success of that marginal group that influences the society, makes the US pioneers in space travel, computers..you name it.

Finall take the case of an institute like MIT, not more than 0.0001 percent of teh academic staff have nobel prizes, but all the flow of talent and money to the institute is due to that small group.

So my dear muslims, when you say that only a small percent of muslims are terrorists, spare a thought for

JAYP's marginal theory of terrorism.

Naqshbandi, Khurram,

The Gold Backed Dinar is already in existence and used for trade settlements between Malaysia and Iran from physical gold assets held in London. However the idea has not caught on with other countries because which Islamic country has Gold resources? All significant Gold stocks as well as the mining resources are controlled by Russia, China, USA, South Africa etc etc.

A better idea for an alternate to the US Dollar standard is for the Islamic bloc to have its own currency (say Dinar) backed by its own proven natural resource reserves (e.g. oil/Gas) and issued by a parallel Islamic monetary authority to the holy trinity of IMF/World Bank/US Fed.

#15 Posted by thinkingstorm on October 12, 2007 3:30:09 pm


We could also communicate with each other without pesky indians eavesdropping.


You'd be surprised at the number of indians working on japanese projects and who were trained in japanese.

Great Moments in Science: Islamic Scientists on the Brink of Discovering the Moon In Time for Eid!!

"A wise man once said to me, “Beta, Pakistani masjid ki committee ki sadaarat apni marzi se nahin choRtey, hukumat kaisay choRengay? (Son, Pakistanis don’t voluntarily give up the leadership of a mosque committee, how will they then give up political power?) Those were prophetic words."

Hey Wolfy,

If mullahs do not leave the masjid comittee , how do you expect them to exit once they capture power in Pakistan in the name of "Islamic Revolution"??

Hey wolfy,

Spreading more propaganda on behalf of your Islamist felons?

Tell me , what would be the status of idolators , kafirs, munafiqoons and other non muslims in your Islamic State??

Would you impose jizya and torture us till we all surrender and say the kalima out of fear and disgust??

Would you kill the kafirs like you have said in your previous posts?

Would you nuke the idolator land of India as prescribed by your rapist Prophet??

Come on ,tell us more about what you are going to do with your 'revolution'??

dinar or no dinar - but this Gold Standard is not a bad idea.

Naqshbandi sahib, I am not saying any startling stuff but Pakistan IS an Islamic regime and it has nukes already! And, not to be shocked too much – it already had nukes when the Kargil episode took place.

You see sir, what brings things back to reality is not whether Pakistanis have nukes or not, nor whether innocent people abroad are killed or not – the Pakistani regime cares very much (in fact the only thing it cares about is) that its own members are not hurt. That would be most inconvenient! Then the mullah, or whoever is in power, turns around and starts making deals faster than one can blink one’s eyes!

About that increasing religiosity of the Pakistani awaam – I have just one thing to say (please do not feel too bad):

“Diya bujhney ke pehley joar se jalta hai!”

re: # 9

"i don't know much a bout economics but what is wrong with changing the rupee into the dinar? i also think we should consider ourselves a part of the middle east and islamic world instead of south asian and make arabic a national language with equal status to urdu. this will ensure our future lies in the west and not eastwards. i have heard that the founders of pakistan initially did plan to make arabic the national language but pressure from the mohajirs made them choose urdu. i am sure mantolives can elucidate that point. this would be a first step in the creation of a EU-model based islamic union of nation states within an islamic ethos of course with a common currency -dinar -and free trade and no borders."



This is a great idea...I'm with you on this Naqsh bhai...I don't know why Pakistanis didn't do it sooner...they've named cities, mosques and stadiums in their country after Arabs anyway...and are selling their islands and err more delicate and feminine things to those rich sheikhs...this will get those pesky hinjew monkeys off pakistani backs...man, those dal-bhaat eating hinjew baniyas will be so pissed...I think you missed the mark a little by including Urdu as one of the languages allowed Naqsh bhai...Urdu has too many jahil verbs with roots in Pakistan's kafir past...we should make Arabic the sole language in the country...that way we can provide employment to the millions of jobless Arab men who can come to Pakistan and teach us the rasool-e-islam's (pbuh) language...they can also marry Pakistani women and create the elite of the future Islamic race...from this union will spring the real mard-e-momin...the sons of these unions will have superhuman powers which will make them all ghazis in battle and the daughters will carry the beauty and genes to produce even more superhuman ghazis in the future.

Allahu Akbar!

arabic, japanese?
I thought you guys were learning Chinese.
well..at least Romair suggested to do so few years ago.:)

naqshbandi #9 i will sincerely recommend you take off your ideological glasses and see history as it happened, not as you would have liked it to happen.

Thus, the decline of the Ottoman empire did not start with the Tanzimat Reforms. Those were in fact an attempt at moving away from precisely the prescription you provided - and it was a case of too little, too late. And it would be another hundred years before Ataturk would put Turkey back on track as a respectable nation.

This decline had started centuries ago, thus:

1. The decline started in the 15th century (when the europeans left Turks behind politically, economically, socially, technologically behind).

2. It reached the tipping point in the late 18th century when the Russians took their european possessions apart and imposed the humiliating Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarji, 1774, on the ottomans.

3. The ottomans tried to copy western military techniques as a way to recover, but kept their back firmly turned to other aspects of western civilization, and for good reason as far as the ottoman khalifas were concerned - the kings powers in the west were being eroded and parliaments being formed, and the ottomans did not wish to lose their absolute power).

3. The early 19th century proved that this strategy too was a failure - with greeks and serbs staging successful revolts, and the rest of europe treating turkey like a vegetable.

It was then that the Tanzimat Reforms were started - and being bitterly opposed by the maulvis, were not carried out. The rest is history.

So, like I said, stop living in a dream world and wake up. When you feel like living in a dream world, read the Arabian Nights, or go watch a belly dance or something.

Arjun,

The japanese language suggestion is actually productive and wise.

Pakistanis speaking japanese would shock the world, and let us crash into parties.

We could also communicate with each other without pesky indians eavesdropping.

The japanese would extend a hand of friendship, and we could flood their little racist island with a sea of brown pakistanis.

Good suggestion.

Naqsh, take goddamn notice will you?

This whole "let's be more arabic" is such dumb shyte.

Look at the Malaysians and Indonesians for inspiration.
with much respect,
thinking storm

#9 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 12, 2007 1:26:48 pm


i also think we should consider ourselves a part of the middle east and islamic world instead of south asian


yes..please do...this will help indians..we can get rid of this "terrorists of south asian origin" cr@p..


and make arabic a national language with equal status to urdu. this will ensure our future lies in the west and not eastwards.


why don't you make japanese your national language..it will ensure that you make great electronics and great cars.

Yaar Naqsh,

Don't be such a party pooper :(.


with much respect,
thinking storm

considering this (dinar)is a good idea, perhaps indians should do it before without waiting for pakistani consensus etc. to build.

if afterwards the indians wish to adopt the islamic dinar--why not?! an islamic pakistan will be much more peaceful than a non-islamic pakistan.

i like the dinar idea..do you think india should also do the same considering it has so many muslims?

well, for 600 years the ottoman empire was a dominant force in global affairs and it was only after they began aping the West in the Tanzeemat Reforms (?) and mixing islamic law with french law that things began to go downhill; however even at its weakest moment in 1924 it was STILL much more of a powerful entity than turkey itself is now. the dismantling of the caliphate was the single most greatest political tragedy for muslims since the sacking of baghdad by the mongols.

however, i am not naive enough to call for the return of the caliphate in pakistan-- i believe there is no caliphate now ere the Mahdi alayihasalam --but i think an iranian style revolution is possible but with shia twelver legal codes replaced by sunni hanafite law. the ottoman model of each community within its empire being allowed to govern according to their own personal laws such matters as come under personal law is worth copying as it is a much better model than multiculturalism.

i don't know much a bout economics but what is wrong with changing the rupee into the dinar? i also think we should consider ourselves a part of the middle east and islamic world instead of south asian and make arabic a national language with equal status to urdu. this will ensure our future lies in the west and not eastwards. i have heard that the founders of pakistan initially did plan to make arabic the national language but pressure from the mohajirs made them choose urdu. i am sure mantolives can elucidate that point. this would be a first step in the creation of a EU-model based islamic union of nation states within an islamic ethos of course with a common currency -dinar -and free trade and no borders.

Asif:

I doubt if the Washington Post and the New York Times are mouthpieces of the American government. These are mainstream news outlets that have regularly exposed government coverups and try and present all sides of a story. Here in America they are considered by many as left of center, liberal and somewhat elitist, but no one has accused them of towing the Bush party line. The Wall Street Journal, National Review, Fox News etc are the ones doing Bush's bidding.

Ejaz

So, it is my view that in the not too distant future Pakistan too will go through its own version of an Islamic revolution.


no such thing will happen. the canine tendencies are too strong in pakis for that to happen.

in short, you don't have the testicular fortitude..you(or whoever is leading you) will grease up and bend over at the first phone call from the land of the free.

of course, you could disconnect your phones...then you'd have a better shot..

and i forgot to applaud you for calling for the re-introduction of the "gold standard" - it is such an honor to share chowk with an eminent economist (among other specialties) like you.

#4 naqshbandi: "Hanafi fiqh--it was the official school of the Ottoman empire--...They could be really revolutionary and adopt the dinar and the gold standard as currency "

Brilliant!! In one stroke you would have:

1. Aped someone else (turks in this case).
2. Introduced kingship, complete with the "Bowstring" method of coronation (strangulation of the other royal princes with a bowstring being the de facto standard method whereby the ottoman princes eliminated competition when the king died);
3. Made the judiciary subordinate to the executive (qazis were appointed by kings, and supplemented firmans - i.e. executive ordinances - with judgements that would be consistent with the king's wishes).

as for "social, economic, education, health, justice" - it wasnt for nothing that the ottoman empire wasnt called the "sick man of europe" for the entire 19th century, and until the Turks themselves got rid of it.

But you carry on your Khilafat Movement. Dont let an iota of common sense penetrate your brain.

Because of the massive corpus of existent Hanafi fiqh--it was the official school of the Ottoman empire--there already exists in place a detailed body of literature from which a council of experts [ulama] can sit and derive rulings on how to govern today and hence deal with all aspects of society: legal, political, social, economic, education, health, justice etc.

They could be really revolutionary and adopt the dinar and the gold standard as currency thus, at a stroke, freeing themselves from the usury-laden loan-repayments which cripple third world countries.

If any muslim country tries to do any meaningful and productive project then there is always a internal/foreign interference that undermines the sacred objectives. Just watch this what happens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMj0g2DpR5A

I hope you learn something.

Nanga Pir

Asif you end the article with An Islamic regime with nuclear weapons? Don't bet against it in the next 5-10 years

Prophetic - now you are .....

let us see what the future holds....why try to foretell it

For argument's sake, let us say an Islamic leadership does come to power in Pakistan. What then? Is there a vision to create a just society, reduce poverty, promote education, enlightenment and true Islam, improve the lot of the minorities, etc.?

Will all this descend from the heavens once the charismatic leader has revealed himself?You need to provide more specific for discussion.