Magic of metaphors : Op-Ed Journey of Thomas Friedman

hamidm #47 So do you propose breaking eggs by driving over them in those unsold detroit suvs? This way you make omellete as well as find a use for the suvs that those crazy left wing anarchists from Toyota put of commission with their pansy, environment-friendly, politically correct hybrids.

harish_hyd #51 Please....Since Field Marshall "Nostrosdamus" Romair has made such accurate predictions years in advance, he now has to operate incognito as Bulleya to avoid stockbrokers and geo-strategic planners in the world's capitals. Warren Buffet and Alan Greenspan read his chowk posts for hours every day in minute detail! Musharraf has a super secret ISI unit (the "Romair Watch") that follows every word Bulleya writes and thus helps Musharraf outsmart everyone and keep clinging to power. So, dont blow his cover by referring to him as Romair!!

#49 by majumdar

Some chowkies allege that you had enthusiastically welcomed the US invasion of Afghanistan. Even volunteered to fight for them.

Majumdar bhai, it is not an allegation. Arjun has posted that piece of gem so many times that we've lost count. And then there's the famous T-shit quote, where Romair mian proudly proclaimed that in the post 9/11 US, Indians would have to wear T-shits with Paki flags to feel safe.

#48 by bulleya

......as for lal masjid, i opposed the military action....i believe imran khan opposed it also, as did many pakistanis.........though, much of the chowk crowd supported it........

Trying to be a bit too smart are we? Once your loyalties were firmly established with Mushy (the way you enthusiastically welcomed him after the coup), you cannot wiggle out of responsibility for his actions by disowning them. In the politest terms, you would be called a "traitor". Is there anything in the Paki military training that tells you to abandon your post the moment you feel the heat?

Romair sahib,

Some chowkies allege that you had enthusiastically welcomed the US invasion of Afghanistan. Even volunteered to fight for them.

Regards

shankar #: "Sure i do!...just as soon as you take responsibilty for all the deaths in lal masjid:)"

...its good to see someone on this site taking some responsiblity......i was half expecting you to do a, "hamid mian" and quitely pass on the responsibility to someone else......

......as for lal masjid, i opposed the military action....i believe imran khan opposed it also, as did many pakistanis.........though, much of the chowk crowd supported it........

hence there is a difference in your support for bush's action and my opposition to musharraf's.......i never support military action as solutions, other than in self-defence......

......as i stated i would chose musharraf over bb and ns......however not over various other saner individuals.......and i think there are enough sane individuals in pakistan, who would not have taken military action in lal masjid........there were much easier ways to resolve the issue......

Re: # 43

and shankar mian, don't loose any sleep over the deaths in iraq - it is a just war and you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs ...... as far as i am concerned, we need to set fire to the whole damn poultry farm before the sars epidemic spreads .......

shankar mian,

.... welcome back ...... my cichlids are doing fine even though one of them acts like romair and gets beaten up by the other four .... but like romair, he is quite 'dheet' and keeps on coming back for more punishment .....

...... just ignore bj's concern about my obsession with 'superficial' bodily attributes, i can explain it myself: beauty does not lie in the eye of the beholder - that is bakwas invented by butt ugly people from the subcontinent (specially bihar and madras) - beauty is an absolute value ........ as a professional shrink i am sure you will agree with me .....

...... now you can devote your attention to romair mian ... by the way, while you were away another mad man has appeared on this forum - this basket case calls himself masadi ..... he needs your help real bad ......

Shankar, before I forget, welcome back!

Now that you are here, tell us - what is the shrink term for this (apparently) incurable condition whose symptoms are being repeatedly demonstrated by miaN hamidm2 - the condition consisting of a morbid fascination with superficial bodily attributes (especially of the gora's bodily attributes) and an absolute aversion to one's brown skin color (which is reminiscent of one's own grampa Gopinath)!

(rubbing eyes with disbelief) have i seen it all, now?

----
#40 Posted by bulleya on October 15, 2007 2:14:49 pm

.......there was a talk show on hbo, where a commentator made an interesting comment: all these, "experts" who have been pushing useless theories which have proven totally incorrect, need to be taken to task and should never be listened to again......

Romair,
".....as for you supporting bush - do you take some responsibilty for all the deaths caused in iraq?"

Sure i do!...just as soon as you take responsibilty for all the deaths in lal masjid:)

hamdim mian#: " i don't like friedman, but when he shares my view"

....now we are getting somewhere...within a few replies, you have gone from declaring friedman a complete hoax, to someone you support, quite often.......

........as i said, it should not be so easy to jump ship...at the core friedman and you are cut from the same cloth.......though his cloth was created in usa, while yours, has an uncle tom aspect to it........

......nothing wrong with that, as i have always stated.....but, at least, stay consistent with whom you support and whom you oppose......

shankar #: "you seemed to changed your tune about Mushy..being the greatest thing since sliced bread."

...its good to see you are back....

i have not changed my stance on musharraf......i have always supported him if benazir and nawaz sharif (and maulvis) were the only other options......and still do....

......however, i have never supported him, if any option outside the above was available....in that case, i have supported imran khan.......(and within ppp etc., individuals like aitezaz ahsan)....i still do.......

......i have also, from day one, supported a change of govt. through the judiciary, or other active organizations in pakistan like the media......and still do......

......so nothing has changed in my views......if benazir or nawaz or fazl are going to be the ultimate power, then, even today, i will take musharraf.......

however, things have evolved in pakistan......there is, finally, a somewhat credible judiciary, which i support over musharraf - like i always did.......there is a credible media, which i support over musharraf......there is no chance of imran khan coming into power, however, i still suppport him over musharraf........and there is an outside chance that people like benazir may be out of the equation, in which aitezaz ahsans of the world, might come to the top......and i would support that and have always, over musharraf........

.....as for you supporting bush - do you take some responsibilty for all the deaths caused in iraq?

hamdim2 mian#: "i just think that he is not tough enough....while i still support george bush -!"

.... for a person who dishes it out to others the whole day, you certainly have a very thin skin......if you are going to dish it out to 24 hours a day, then you need to stay in control when someone highlights how quickly you jump ship....

...our issue with friedman isn't that he is a hoax, but that he should be an ever bigger hoax......as big as george bush, whom you still admire.......mind you, you are part of the tiny % of the world who still admires bush......even his own party members don't mention his name when they campaign......

......in any case, you and the friedmans and the cheneys and the bushes and the fieths and the pearles have caused enough trouble....

.......there was a talk show on hbo, where a commentator made an interesting comment: all these, "experts" who have been pushing useless theories which have proven totally incorrect, need to be taken to task and should never be listened to again......

....i believe you fall in the above group.....at the very least, i think we need to make sure you are not allowed to jump ship easily and are continuously placed in the same book as the individuals you have traditionally supported....

and please learn to develop a thicker skin.......you are one of the most self-righteous individuals on this site (in the same league as the religiously self-righteous)....nothing wrong with being self-righteous......however, self-righteous folks need to have a thcker skin than you currently have......

Re: # 37

Hamidm Sahib:

"i will quote the devil (and al-lah mian) if it will support my point ! ....... i have no shame ........ "

Are you sure that you are not a successful entreprenuer? Welcome to the club, any way.

May be get an idlee franchise from Dasaprakasa in Bangalore and open a restaurant in Islamabad, and your birth town - near Panini's birthplace. Never know.... you may hate idlee and love the business.

I always wondered if mithai shop owner hated sweets, or loved sweets.

Romair #22

To be fair to hamid, you seemed to changed your tune about Mushy..being the greatest thing since sliced bread.

..your nemesis, arjun, seems to have saved all your "prophecies", so when you claim credit for being a political nostradamus, all he has to do is zap out the tee shirt.

Aw, what the heck....if it makes you feel any better...., I was all for GWB when he claimed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction...I feel duped by the neocons & rue the day we went into Iraq.

Re: # 32

anil mian,

i will quote the devil (and al-lah mian) if it will support my point ! ....... i have no shame ........ i don't like friedman, but when he shares my view of the pathetic state of the ummah, i have to agree with him ........ heck, i even agree with horrible hindoos once in a while, even though i support the liberation of kashmir and can't stand idlee ........

hamidm: other michigan residents - ford, gm - also bet that the future was in George Will's CLEW. And lost their shirts to those left wing whackos at Toyota which started investing in small hybrids rather than suvs years ago.

as for global warming, while perhaps michigan will become the new florida 50 years from now, dont bet on it.

I suppose everyone has seen this one by Kubin.

---
WRITE YOUR OWN THOMAS FRIEDMAN COLUMN!

Write your own Thomas Friedman column!
New York Observer
May 25, 2004

1. Choose your title to intrigue the reader through its internal conflict:

a. War and Peas
b. Osama, Boulevardier
c. Big Problems, Little Women

2. Include a dateline from a remote location, preferably dangerous, unmistakably Muslim:

a. Mecca, Saudi Arabia
b. Islamabad, Pakistan
c. Mohammedville, Trinidad

3. Begin your first paragraph with a grandiose sentence and end with a terse, startlingly unexpected contradiction:

a. The future of civilization depends upon open communication between Yasir Arafat and Ariel Sharon. If the two don't speak to each other, the world edges closer to the precipice of total war. If, on the other hand, they manage to engage in open conversation and resolve their differences, Israelis could soon be celebrating Seders in Saudi Arabia. But for now, the two men can't speak. Why? You can't make a collect call from Bethlehem.

4. Use the next few paragraphs to further define the contradiction stated above, peppered with little questions making it look like you're having a conversation with the reader. Feel free to use the first person:

a. My first thought was to ask: Why no collect calls from Bethlehem? It's easy to call collect from Bosnia, Kosovo, even Uzbekistan. Am I sure? Of course I'm sure. I was in each of those places just a few weeks ago, making collect calls all over the world. No problem. So why can't Arafat call collect from Bethlehem?

5. Remember: Thomas Friedman is the Carrie Bradshaw of current events. Think Sex and the City, write "Sects and Tikriti":

a. How can Islam get to its future, if its past is its present?

b. Later that day I got to thinking about global civilizational warfare. There are wars that open you up to something new and exotic, those that are old and familiar, those that bring up lots of questions, those that bring you somewhere unexpected, those that take you far from where you started, and those that bring you back. But the most exciting, challenging and significant clash of all is the one you have with your own civilization. And if you can find a civilization to love the you that you love, well, that's just fabulous.

c. Maybe Arabs and Israelis aren't from different planets, as pop culture would have us believe. Maybe we live a lot closer to each other. Perhaps, dare I even say it, in the same ZIP code.

6. Name-drop heavily, particularly describing intimate situations involving hard-to-reach people:

a. The Jacuzzi was nearly full when Ayman al-Zawahiri, former surgeon and now Al Qaeda's head of operations, slid in.

b. It was Thomas Pynchon on the phone. "Tommy," he said, probably aware we share that name ..

c. Despite the bumpy flight, I felt comfortable in the hands of a pilot as experienced as Amelia Earhart.

7. Include unknowns from hostile places who have come to espouse rational Western thought and culture:

a. I visited Mohammed bin Faisal Al-Hijazi, former top aide to Ayatollah Khomeini, now a reformer and graduate of the Wharton Business School.

b. Last year Nura bin Saleh Al-Fulani worked in Gaza sewing C4 plastic explosives into suicide bombers' vests. I caught up with Nura last week in Paw Paw, Mich., where she sews activity patches on the uniforms of Cub Scout Pack 34.

8. Make use of homey anecdotes about your daughters, Natalie and Orly, enrolled in Eastern Middle School, Silver Spring, Md.:

a. My daughter Natalie, a student at Eastern Middle School, a public school in Silver Spring, Md., asked me at breakfast: "Daddy, if my school has students who are Muslims and Jews and Christians and Buddhists all working together, why can't the rest of the world be that way?" There was something in the innocence of her question that made me stop and think: Maybe she has a point.

9. Quote a little-known Middle East authority at least once in every column:

a. Stephen P. Cohen
b. Stephen P. Cohen
c. Stephen P. Cohen

10. Conclude your column with a suggestion referring back to the opening contradiction, but with an ironic twist. Make sure the suggestion you proffer sounds plausible, but in fact has no chance of happening:

a. Driving into Bethlehem in the back of a pickup, I wonder: What if Yasir Arafat and Ariel Sharon sit down and play a game of poker? And what if the stakes are these: If Sharon wins, the Intifada is over. If Arafat wins, Palestine gains statehood. One game of no-limit Texas hold 'em, and the Middle East crisis is resolved. Just like that. Yasir and Ariel, deal 'em out.

-Michael Kubin

anil to hamidm: Arjun is giving Romair one-side treatment, Arjun can find your almost eulogizing

oh no!! dont sic the monkey god on hamidm!! :-(

Tom Friedman is 10,000 mile wide and 1 inch deep in his analyses. It is good for subway reading..Bhagwati basically tore him a new one when discussing globalization and lambasting the world is flat bit. World is not flat..never was and never will be. Although, Keira Knightly is FLAT.

Re: # 23

Hamidm Sahib:

"george will is my man, even though i disagree with him sometimes ... "

Could it be that you have similar disagreements with Tom Friedman. I believe you quoted Tom Friedman here on Chowk. Arjun is giving Romair one-side treatment, Arjun can find your almost eulogizing quote of Tom Friedman on his Earth is Flat.

hamid pai bhaand every body knows friedman is a hoax, but you supported him in the past and you support the other hoax george will, that means as I had rightly estimated u are a pea brained joker.

If you had any brains u would support Fareed Zakaria, or Brezinski but you have nuts for brains.

And by the way Al Gore might be nuts but global warming is coming and it will submerge most of your coastel areas, so if you have beach front property sell it fast

Look I have been saying......for a long time....that the earth is round......the sky is blue.....and water makes you wet....however, after.....consultation with some top politicians in pakistan.....from all political parties....I have realised that the sun does not shine through my ass......I plan to write a book about it in the future.....

tahmed,

.... i don't consider george will to be a neo-con and will take him any day over these left wing whackos like al gore and tom friedman ...... yea, friedman is a bleeding heart, pot smoking, homo loving, clinton supporting, commie liberal ! .......... and don't worry about global warming - it is all liberal propaganda by the hollywood crowd that can afford solar panels ..... our ancestors were probably worried about it too, before the ice age killed them off ....... besides, we can always use a warm winter in michigan ....

.... and just to show that i am not biased against liberals, i like chris matthews - the man is so sincere, he makes me puke ...

hamidm #24 i normally dont read george will either since i think the man is a fake - he is too smart not to be aware of the incredible risk the entire planet is being placed in due to over-consumption, and yet writes an article (a couple of days back in the WP) where he sings of the miseries of the ultra-rich due to the increase in the CLEW (Cost of Living Extremely Well) without concerning himself with the realities of Global Warming and other costs that future generations will have to pay; and without concerning himself that more waste does not mean more happiness.

The new-cons are like any other ideology-driven nuts - living in a make-believe world, ignoring inconvenient truths (to borrow from Gore).

hamidm: romair may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but he has a 100% track record of perfect predictions years in advance (and I say this per his own humble admission in #22 below). Indeed, Field Marshall Romair is the new-improved version of the Delphic Oracle and he smokes even more potent gas then they gave to the Delphic Oracle. In his first year of training at Kakul, Romair had already mastered the Theory of Everything and was almost awarded the Sword of Honor and the Nobel Prize at the same time, before they accidentally kicked him out!!

They all look and sound the same to me.

Re: # 22

romair,

.... you idiot ! ...... i don't like tom friedman for the same reason i don't like you - you are both mealymouthed pea brains with an exagerrated opinion of your meager intellect .....

...... for your information, tom friedman doesn't support the iraq war while i still support george bush - i just think that he is not tough enough! ...... given the present circumstances, i would support a division of iraq so that we can turn our attention to iran and saudi arabia ....

Re: # 21

tahmed,

.... i hate to admit this, but i used to like friedman ....over the years i found out that the man was just a salesman who had grown to believe his own bullshit -kind of like romair ... like i said, friedman is an empty suit who caters to a tv audience used to five second sound bites and pompous homilies ......... however, i still read his columns in the ny times to keep up with the trends ....... george will is my man, even though i disagree with him sometimes ...

Re: # 21

tahmed,

.... i hate to admit this, but i used to like friedman ....over the years i found out that the man was just a salesman who had grown to believe his own bullshit -kind of like romair ... like i said, friedman is an empty suit who caters to a tv audience used to five second sound bites and pompous homilies ......... however, i still read his columns in the ny times to keep up with the trends ....... george will is my man, even though i disagree with him sometimes ...

hamidm2 mian: ....you were totally in bed with individuals like tom friedman, and everything they represented, over the past years....i remember spending a lot of time trying to explain to you, how idiotic all these neo-con, bush-loving, world is flat idiots were......and i remember you declaring them to be the best thing since sliced bread.......and how clueless the rest of us were....

now you seem to have totally turned against these guys....have you jumped ship, completely......or are you slowly transitioning away from the losing side, on to the side the rest of us belong to?.......in the process, i see that are trying to associate the rest of us with your old comrades.....

....a bit too clever, for your own good hamidm2 mian....your views on everything tom friedmans of the world supported and the passion with which you defended them, are too well documented.......

as for the rest of us: we are still on the same side we always were......back then most of the usa disagreed with what i stated......and agreed with you and tom.......now it is the other way around.......

however, i would have far more respect for you if you stuck with your old friends, and did not try to ditch them at the first opportunity.......

hamidm: If Friedman is getting Fried by both Hamidm and Madani, then I assume it is OK that I havent read any of his stuff.

Re: # 16

ahmedmadani sahib,

....... i fully agree with you - tom friedman is the quintessential consultant and would also make a fine prostitute ..... as long as the client pays the full hourly rate, we will tell him anything he wants to hear .....

Re: # 17

bj mian,

.... you idiot! ... i am not blaming any messenger - the only messenger i blame is gabriel, who garbled al-lah's message and landed us in this fine mess .......... i just don't like hindoos with bad hairdos and tom friedman who has an eerie resemblance to romair ........ that's all

.... the problem with you hindoos is that you suffer from a terrible sense of insecurity and, like stuart smalley, have to keep on seeking affirmation by comparing yourself to us miserable pakis instead of real people like the swedes and chinese .......

now, repeat after me :"I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me"

The success of thoma friedman is due to his name, many confuse him with Milton Friedman the economist

Hamidm2 miaN,

You can keep blaming the messenger - but for how long?!!

Sooner or later, you have to deal with the message.

And the message is highly depressing!

Pakistan's Embattled Mosque Reopens With Fresh Momentum

By Griff Witte
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, October 14, 2007; A20

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- Three months after a bloody commando raid shuttered a haven for radicalism in the heart of this mild-mannered city, the Red Mosque is open again. And in some ways, little has changed.

At prayers this month, calls for Islamic revolution once again echoed from the minarets. Worshipers talked of overthrowing the Pakistani president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, in favor of a Taliban-style government. Many wore the red knit prayer caps long favored by Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the firebrand cleric who was killed in the last hours of a nine-day standoff that transfixed Pakistan and seemed to embody the country's struggle with religious extremism.

But here's what was different at the Red Mosque: The crowd that turned out for prayers, relatively modest in size before the siege, spilled out of the mosque and into the courtyard. It continued down the street and filled an adjacent park. Afterward, impassioned worshipers talked about how they had come to honor the "thousands" who had died. (Government estimates put the number of dead at 103.) They walked the adjacent grounds where the girls' madrassa, or religious school, once stood, sifting the rubble for bits of bloodstained masonry. And they said a special prayer for the Red Mosque martyrs, at which point almost everyone began to weep.

The government had hoped that raiding the Red Mosque would strike a powerful blow against radical religious groups in Pakistan.

Instead, the mosque has become a memorial, a rallying cry and a propaganda tool for those groups, giving them more recruits and fresh momentum to unleash vicious attacks. Al-Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri have both dwelt on the Red Mosque in recordings that call for jihad against Musharraf. Their pleas have been answered in a surge of violence that has claimed more than 1,000 lives and has turned even more Pakistani territory into hostile terrain for the country's army.

Until a couple of weeks ago, the government could at least boast about the tactical victory of retaining control over the mosque itself. But after an aborted reopening in July that ended with the government-appointed cleric fleeing an angry mob, the mosque was returned to the group that operated it before the raid.

On Oct. 3, policemen peeled back layers of barbed wire, and forklifts hoisted away the roadblocks that had encircled the mosque for months. Hundreds of followers of Ghazi and his brother, the imprisoned Maulana Abdul Aziz, streamed in, many flashing victory signs.

"Inshallah" -- God willing -- "this mosque will be exactly the same as it was before. If it is not the same, then we will make it the same," said Abdullah Rahman, 20, an electrical engineering student with a scraggly beard and a red knit cap. "Ghazi was martyred because of the truth. Jihad is the truth. So if the same situation comes again, we will be ready to face it. Even more ready than before."

Syed Ali Hussain, also a student, agreed. Two years ago, he said, he believed "Islam was a religion of terrorists." But after listening to leaders such as Ghazi, he came around to their point of view. The United States and Musharraf, he said, are like burglars who break into a house and then are surprised when they are met with violence. "If the owner of that house defends himself, he should not be called a terrorist," said Hussain, 23, who spent the first two days of the siege in the mosque but was then sent home because there were not enough weapons. "Newton once said that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

While the faithful said their prayers, vendors set up shop in the mosque's courtyard, selling a pamphlet written by Umme Hassan, Aziz's wife. The cover features an elaborately doctored image of the mosque under fire from attack helicopters and tanks. The mosque burns, blood drips down the page, and the headline reminds readers, "The martyrs say to you: Don't forget our sacrifice."

Within the pamphlet, Hassan, who ran the girls' school, offers her version of events. She tells how the government provoked the standoff and how her girls suffered once it began. They ran out of food and water after just two days, she writes, and anyone who ventured out into the open to find new supplies was instantly shot.

The government has told a much different story. The confrontation, the government says, was instigated entirely by the mosque's clerics, who were abducting prostitutes and police officers as part of their campaign to enforce Islamic law. Security forces were only reluctantly sent in to keep the peace, and once they laid their siege, they did everything possible to spare innocent lives while they battled heavily armed radical fighters. The clerics were well prepared for a fight they knew was coming and had stocked up on food and water, as well as weapons, officials have said.

But the government's version is not the one many people have chosen to believe.

In addition to the longtime followers of Ghazi and Aziz, huge numbers of newcomers have been attracted to prayer at the Red Mosque. A week ago Friday, the Islamic holy day, crowds were estimated at 20,000. This Friday, they remained much larger than usual.

"I had never said my prayers here," said Ubaid ur-Rehman, 25. "But today I came because there was great cruelty here. When it comes into my mind what happened here, my heart is filled with sadness."

Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema, an Interior Ministry spokesman, said the government was forced to reopen the mosque by a Supreme Court order. Turning it over to its former management, he said, is only "a temporary arrangement."

For now, however, the followers of Aziz and Ghazi are making themselves at home. The new clerics -- one is a relative of Aziz, and the other is a teacher at the boys' madrassa -- have vowed to repaint the mosque its signature red after the government redecorated with a soft yellow.

At prayers this month, they played a recording from Aziz that was made in prison.

"Hundreds of people died here because they wanted to achieve Islamic revolution," Aziz's voice thundered over the loudspeakers. "This was the start of the Islamic movement in Pakistan."

But for all the rhetoric, the crowd was peaceful.

Many were in a jubilant mood when they arrived but turned somber as they gazed at the weedy field where the girls' school once stood. The school bore the brunt of the fighting, and the government demolished what was left when the siege ended.

After the formal prayers ended, the new clerics asked everyone to sit down in the field to remember those who had died. The sobs spread through the crowd, quietly at first, then like a torrent that swept up everyone, young and old alike.

"Just as Ground Zero is sacred, this place is sacred as well," said Parwaz Abbasi, a middle-aged businessman. "There was a great massacre here."

Afterward, a group of forlorn-looking men remained to wander through the rubble, occasionally bending down to scoop up a handful of soil, bring it close to the face and inhale the scent of martyrs.

Re: # 15 Hamid as cosultant you can appreciate how he packages his drive through observations and markets. That is called businessmanship amrketing of high order.

sometimes pakis and hindoos exchanging insults reminds me of two men with bad comb-overs making fun of each other's hairstyles .......

.... anyway, i must thank arjun for keeping track of romair's inanities over the years ....... i wish somone would do the same for tom friedman - an empty suit who picks up some silly idea based on a drive-by view and then goes around pontificating on it as if he was a fuckin scholar or womething ...... how romairesque! ........ and what really bothers me is that people actually think the man knows what the fuck he is talking about ..... like they say, a fool is born every minute ......

'It is either possible to appreciate Friedman's idea, or to know a fact, but never both at the same time'...... how true

arjun # 6 "I can understand your frustration to...in NYC, you're the cab driver and your rich wall street passenger is probably jewish...what's the matter? he didn't tip you well? maybe if you took a shower once in a while.. "

huh? I am sure you are being funny here, and I give you a passing grade for that. I also realize that this is an era of talking in sound bites and cliches, and I give you passing grade on that too. But could you please point me to which aspect of my post #4 do you disgree with?

Tom Friedman is much more reasonable in his arguments than many other American journalists. There are others who I respect a lot less - to name a few Charles Krauthammer, Bill Kristol, George Will, Bill Bennett, Bill OReilly and Ann Coulter. The trouble I have with a lot of these folks is that they demonize those who don't share their world view. I was horrified when Ann Coulter mocked Senator Max Cleland's Vietnam war service by saying that his disability occured because of an accident and that he was no hero. Here's a gal who professes to honor and respect our troops, yet she smears a silver star veteran who lost three limbs in Vietnam.

Re: # 7,
I would agree with arjun on that one!

Re: # 7

arjun:

ROFL.. is this from when you coined the slogan "pakis are delusional

Ahmedmadani sahib, I forgot to add...

I hope you have a good Eid!

#8 ahmedmadani

Ahmedmadani sahib, you are well-intentioned but mistaken. Here are the realities:

(1) The K problem is not solved because it can not be solved because at its root it is a problem of religious fanaticism (and anybody who denies that obvious reality is intellectually dishonest). Therefore, the K-problem has not been solved because such problems can not be “solved� except the way you guys have “solved� them in Pakistan – and the Indians have given up trying to solve it because they do not like your solution.

(2) The K-problem is not hurting India more than Pakistan, the reverse is true.

(3) The oil/gas pipeline carrot will not work with India – because most Indians think that the country of Pakistan and its leaders are dishonest crooks who do not have the ability to even acknowledge the wrongs they have committed – what to think of setting those wrongs right. Therefore, relying on Pakistani “good faith� is little different from asking the local bully to safeguard your daughter’s honor!

(4) The above facts do not change no matter who leads (or more likely, grabs power in) Pakistan.

(5) Pakistan is a small country which has been acting like a match for a bigger country (India) in arms build-up and is paying a price for that folly economically. Until the mindset of its leaders changes, it will continue to pay that price. In reality, it is Pakistan which is bleeding – in fact, gushing rivers of blood!

(6) Musharraf is not very smart no matter how well the USA likes him. Had he been so, he would not have made a fool of himself in Agra during July 2001, when he had the best opportunity to make a positive difference. Like virtually all Pakistani leaders, he has a narrow vision and a primitive mindset blinded by religious bigotry.

(7) We (the Amrikkans) are not interested in any of your problems – though it will be nice if you had a democratic setup. Just hand over the troublemakers and their cronies to us and we won’t bother with you. If you refuse to hand the troublemakers over to us (like the Afghanistanis refused in 2001), we will come after you and get them ourselves. We have already paid you a good price for all of that – including bailing you out from your economic mess over the past few years – so expect no more payments or concessions of any kind from us – especially if we end up doing the job ourselves.

Re: # 7 Arjun you need to calm yourself and lower your excitement your blood pressure. The K problem is not still solved and its hurting India more than Pakistan. If India needs oil and gas from middleeast and central asia you need pipelines to have cheap transport. You can not have access to A.Stan all things can change if K problem is solved. Romair is still right best person to make give and take is general Musharaff. No civilian president will dare to talk of give and take as he and his party will get beating at elections. If general promises then he has brains and strong wrists to carry out, army will not object to make give and take related concessions. W.STan problems are of short duration and american induced, Army does not have mind and heart in american ordered operations.Again Romair has suggested good solution that is withdraw army and tell americans to solve the problems as we have no means without offending also new elected rulers will not agree , that excused can not be over ridden by usa. Wheather one likes or not general is there to stay for 10 years. He will be elected again in 2012 for 5 years then in 2017 he will retire due to old age. He is smart man a street fighter from Karachi , by giving long rope of corrouption forgivence PP chairman is go to end herself. You see nature of two general, Zia was simple man he killed Bhutto and bad publicity while by his kindness he is killing bb and ppp. He has given problems in religious parties so only he has immerged victor in late political games. MQM is solidly behind him and now PP has blundered and has chosen short cut to demise of PPP. As Romair said the economy is doing fine and stock market is reaching peaks all time. If govt finally let gas prise to float there will rich b.stan people like Quawaitis and that problem will go. Key to B.Problem is letting gas prices go international and B.Stan become Saudi Arabia of Pakistan Punjab and Sindh ( sindh will be ok as they produce lots of energy) will suffer high prices but B Problem gone. With conceding to Americans Freedom of operation in W.Stan and letting gas prices float B. Problem gone. Then Army can start attention to east and south problem makers and attention to K. You may not like that idea but that is future. General can give some relief but elected people will harrass india all time as elected people have to follow popular ideas. Still 10 years to solve before general departure or both countries will be facing sure big war, all atomic bombs flying and nuclear diseases due to nuclear stuff flowing in air.Then China will get involved if pakistan is attacked and china missiles will destroy many big cities of India. If india wants that they can have after 2012. The state of things may be bad but future will be much worse.

speaking of credibility, this is what the interactor formerly known as romair said 6 years ago..good thing he doesn't interact here anymore because it would be embarrassing for him to read some of his own words.





I had stated at the time of the coup, that India would be well-advised to negotiate with Pakistan on Kashmir, when Pakistan was at its weakest. It could have gotten a really good deal. I will say again, India should negotiate now, lest Pakistan`s position continue to get stronger. If Musharraf can keep some checks for ten years on the corrupt politicians who will get elected in one year`s time, Pakistan could be different place in a decade. At that time, it is quite possible, Pakistan will not want to negotiate in Kashmir, and will be more than happy to let India, ``bleed`` there.

Pakistan literally has the US media at its footsteps, with an international audience. Musharraf is a hero in the USA, and has an extreme amount of goodwill going for him. The benevolent, educated, liberal dictator taking on the militant mullahs, seems to be the image here (quite a bit of truth in this image). This is a Bhagwan-given opportunity that has never been provided to any South Asian leader. Pakistan should keep pointing out that while it is trying to help the US, India`s attacks are greatly harming its efforts. It should also continue to offer Vajpayee invitations to visit Pakistan. And it should openly state it would like to discuss with the Indians, in the UN, all Pakistani and Indian accusations of terrorism against each other.

The only thing worse than losing an internal or external war is being involved in one definitely.





yes...6 year down, pureland is a completely different place..there is a civil war, the jihadis are on the warpath, the paki army soldiers who aren't surrendering or getting their throats slit are having to kill a whole bunch of their own civilians..if all this isn't enough, pureland is being bombed by US jets when they don't fall in line.



and India? well, as the world sees it, india is in a completely different league than pureland..

and kashmir? even the normally deluded pakis realize that kashmir ain't gonna banega pakiland...

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hamidm2 mian: ....i am quite surprised you don't love tom friedman......he fits the exact profile of americans that you, generally, line up behind....

what gives?

yes Tom is right in saying that the world is turning flat, flattened by the carpet bombings of one country after another. Afghanistan and Iraq have been flattened. Iran and Syria may be next. Saudi Arabia is not far behind. Could very well be Pakistan and Burma's turn next.

Tom Friedman and Judith Miller, both found their voice via the "liberal" NY Times. They are both jews and have served an important role in the giant war machine that america is.

Tom serves a useful purpose in american mainstream media - he has this natural knack for abstractly intellectualizing and rationalizing perpetual war abroad while maintaining perpetual terror at home. Given his taste for metaphors, the american people who dont even understand their mortgage terms, get this feeling that this guy must be saying something important and big about foreign affairs. Afterall, he was one of those journalists who successfully convinced americans that attacking iraq was like avenging 9/11.

His partner in crime, Judith Miller was disgracefully fired from NY Times after years of writing horror film like accounts of Saddam's plans to occupy Washington DC and his secret dealings with outer space aliens. So successful was she that during the initial euphoric days of Iraqi occupation, she even led a small platoon of american soldiers inside Iraq in search of WMDs - that was a rarity because jews typically plan wars and tend to stay away from front lines. So she got fired from NY Times and then jailed because in her zeal to fulfill Israeli agenda she turned on america and was considered an accomplice in outing a CIA operative's identity. But since jews take care of their own, she wasnt villified at all in jewish run media and in fact she found a new home in the jewish Rupert Murdoch run Wall Street Journal, where she is now dishing out intellectual advice on, what else, Iraq!

Re: # 2 Mr.Hamid , the article is "tough". Person like you should explain the article. It is bumper going over head, too abstract for my brain.

Re: # 1 Your comment is profound ?

tom friedman reminds me of the 7 dollars an hour security card in the lobby of our office building who used to give advice on picking stocks during the internet boom ! ..... sometimes he reminds me of romair