Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?

masadi: this is your statement that i had said was a lie and challenged you to cut and paste anything I had written to back it: People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

This is the best you could come up with from the thousands of posts I have written on chowk: "The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence."

Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?

You remain a liar.

Masadi sahib,

(An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. )

Tahmed sahib seems to be reporting what his Indonesian friend had commented on. Does he say that he believes in what his friend says?

Regards

tahmed writes "You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim. "

I have done just that copy pasting many times and every time you, like a man of weak morals, put your tail between your legs and whimper away. The article that you wrote in support of the US invasion of Iraq, in that you sung the praises of British colonization- what you called the Anglo Saxon ethos in your support of colonization and the neo-colonization of the Americans, and you don't praise something compared to the other (in this case the local scene) unless you consider it superior. Now, I know that you possess the intellect of a five year old which goes to the extent of cheerleading for the US elite and colonization.

Here is an exact quote from your article:

QUOTE :c. India: The Jewel in the Crown of the British Empire. The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. END QUOTE ( from tahmed article "Open Letter to those Opposing the Iraq War, http://www.chowk.com/articles/6036)

Now we all know who the liar and hypocrite is, and it is you Tauheed Ahmed, peon of the West.

Read about one Nobel Laureate Watson's comments on black people's intelligence. Another Nobel Laureate William Shockley too had come to similar conclusions. Monkey chatting crowds in Bardoa, Karachi, Madrid and quite a few European cities. Senor Aragones, the coach of the Spanish team calling Thierry Henry black sh*t.

It seems that the followers of the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak are spread all over the globe.

Regards

Re: # 163

madani sahib,

......... i think it is time for ppp and mqm to put aside their differences and form a common front against the islamists which will soon include pml(n&q), mma and imran khan ..... they should also try to get anp and the baluch nationalist parties on board ....... the line between the islamists and the civilized people is being drawn and it will be a long and tough fight .......

Re: # 161

tahmed,

.... so i gather that you would be happy to pay a special tax if your kids were exempted from the draft ? .... how about not being able to run for president of the us ? .... at this rate i am sure you also wouldn't mind wearing a green tie to identify you as a muslim ?

....... when people like you push the notion that islam is perfect (or at least better than sliced bread) it echoes the extremist point of view ...... as long as muslims actually believe that their religion is perfect and that everyone else is bound for hell, we cannot have peace on earth ...... sometimes you remind me of dr israr ........

Re: # 164
This article is not related to pakistan seems more whitenations related. Pakistan has no problem with christians. But there is clsh of 60 years going between Indian cultural( Hindian) ethos and pakistani( Muslim) ethos that is civilisation clash relevaent to des.But this is not new clash. This problem they bring and discuss west and east clash but indian/ pakistani clash is real thing, christian west is just repeation of old things. This is reason my intelluctual and little some times angry friend Mr.Masadi is saying for some time, but most are wrining wrong things at wrong time and wrong place. bye

Re: # 130 Posted by HP on October 17, 2007 8:43:54 pm

[The brouhaha on immigration is clearly based on racism.] This is clearly not true. The Anglo-Saxon culture of North America is predominantly of puritan protestant Christian faith, whilst Mexican illegals have brought catholic religion into the US. That is where the immigration argument is.

Re: # 132 Thanks mr. Masadi for agreeing with me about western brainwashing done by british elites about color complexion in desh. I will request you to contribute all you can but just refrain from personal attacks or individuals quarrelling.Have good day.
Today is very sad day but luckly Mrs Bhutto is survived is only good thing. Terrorist I feel are some foreign interest funded is my feeling from some adjucent countries and I exclude Iran and China as these are brother countries. It can be work of A.Stan intelligence branch or some "RAW" dealing people.
I hope now forgivance is given to BB and NS and President for their corrouption and "tughi" things hope same things will be applied to MQM people who as wrongly subjected to fabricated charges. GOP should invite A.H. also from England to have level field to MQM.b No already PPP has started blaming MQM for some bad actions this is sad. As MQM allowed so she was able to land and her followeres allowed to gather. MQM wants to cooperaste with all for democracy other side they could have declared "karachi Decree" just stopped arrival of EX PM. Hope people understand geeriosity of MQM HQ. MQM is not recist as they quite dark than natives and oppressed by few supremists so oppressor can not be recist. MQM has muslims of indian origin from all languages but they use urdu for national integration. PLEASE MR.T do not try to blame MQM for recism in land.

Re: # 161

The first place for a 'moderate' muslim to begin healing the disease of mullah Islam is through acknowledge of the facts that hamidm talks about.
Muslims can become 'moderate' by using their wisdom but the mullah Islam can never and it has to be changed if 'moderate' muslims are to continue refering their identity to some 'Islam'.

hamidm: "dhimmis" were not slaves, nor even second class citizens for all practical purposes, in any of the vast muslim areas through the centuries.

tolkinin #157 "Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human."

Goals set a direction, a destination. One can say that to meet a goal is "beyond human" and discard the goal (as you seem to imply), or one can acknowledge that we humans are imperfect and stick to this goal. Thus, the US Constitution (where the preamble start with "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal") sets this goal quite explicitly. And 250 years ago when these words were written, the world - and the US - was even further away from this goal than today.
Since then, the US as a nation has moved ever closer to this goal (per my post below) through civil war, civil movements and legal action.

I agree with you that slavery did not start with Islam, and what I wrote earlier does not imply that it did by any means. What is true is that slavery lasted for centuries in muslim countries, and ended because of the efforts of abolitionists in the US and UK, and there was never any serious abolitionist movement within muslim countries. Indeed (as I mention below) there was strong opposition from the maulvis at the khalifa caving in to UK when he was pressured into ending slavery in the ottoman empire.

Re: # 158

tolkinin,

.... don't you think islam is the most racist ideology of all since it divides citizens into two distinct classes - muslims and dhimmis, where dhimmis can never have the same rights as the true believers ???? .........

Re: # 157
Rascism is rascism does not matter on what basis Dr.Watson bases it on Genetics ,Whites base it on colour Hindus base it on reincarnation resulting in tiers of Caste and Muslims base it on any or all of the other reasons.As Iqbal complained yun to syed bhi ho mirza bh Afghan bhi ....batao to ke musalman bhi ho.So there you have it Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human.

"and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. "
BTW Islam did not START slavery .It did make attempt stop it prophet did liberate first black slave to be so Hazrat Bilal much before your civil rights .Of course slavery continued from prior to Islam to after it just as gambling drunkedness fornication homosexuality prostitution so many despicable things among Slavery.If muslims continued to practice slavery just as the White masters importing blacks from Africa then Americans whites cannot claim be the first to abolish it b/c they had the most and worst of slavery .

#155 tolkinin: so you reject the central tenet of the caste system. congratulations. when the hundreds of millions of hindus who do believe in the caste system catch up with you, then you can start worrying about racism among muslims.

urstruly #147 you are factually incorrect in attributing the civil rights movement to the communist movement of the 20th century.

Hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers died fighting to end slavery in the US Civil War of 1860's - Even before the civil war, brave men like John Brown and his sons gave up their lives fighting to free the slaves. And John Brown inspired the Union soldiers ("John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on" was a popular rallying song in the civil war). Others made slavery an issue in non-violent ways that also had an impact (e.g. the anti-slavery convention in UK in the 1850s).

btw, not that it matters anymore given that you are above such minor issues - you make another self-contradictory statement in your post: While (incorrectly, as pointed out above) attempting to pass the credit for the end of slavery to the "proletariat revolution", you claim that " Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. ". In doing so, you forge that the communists were avowed atheists!! (but like I said, dont let little things like reason and facts trouble you).

and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. It was also legal in the ottoman empire (which spanned the middle east and turkey) until the Brits pressured them in the early 19th century to declare it illegal. Mullahs at that time loudly cried against this end of slavery as being kow-towing of the khalifa to the brits. But again, dont let this simple fact come in the way of your standing on a moral pedestal and declaring all non-mullahs as being without morality.