Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?

dm #228 good cop out, dm sahib. just do me the favor of not mis)representing my views in future. it will save your precious time, and my useless time doesnt matter of course.

ahmedmadani#233:

Yes, for now, but not sure for how long? The Kurds love for Kurds rebellion in Turkey might be their undoing. They have the same fatal attraction for an independent Kurdistan that Pakistanis have for Kashmir.

Re: # 218 Kurds are winners ?

Re: # 71

freethinker

"But what perhaps impedes understanding of the situation more than anything else is that the term "mankind" feels vague and abstract."

But what about the term 'religion'? It is more vague than the term 'mankind'. It includes anti-human cults like those of 'Kaali Devi' and 'IslamoFascists' to the great humanistic 'Buddhism'. We see 'pure' spiritualistic religion like 'Makki' Islam turning into an over-politicised 'Madni' Islam, leading ultimately to the carnage of the very family of the Prophet.

Why limit the interaction to Muslims and Christians only? Let's join forces with all religious/non-religious belief systems. Afterall, this planet is but ONE, yet we are as people MANY.

hamid writes "i seriously doubt the neocons had any idea that there was so much animosity and hatred between the various groups in iraq ..... , a trifurcation might be the best solution for the people ....... "

Quit playing the MAJ (MFJ) role of dividing up a country based on the nonsense that they cannot get along- the US invasion is the cause of all the animosity and hatred that exists, the US has played one group against the other and might even be involved in particular instances- those people have had a long history of living together in peace and harmony and the only grievance the shias had were not against their sunni neighbours but against a regime. The sectarianism was inflamed by the US when it rushed to Saddar city at the fall of baghdad in order to use those thugs and punish the sunnis under the guise of "debathification"...

Re: # 227

dost,

.. no the are not better off now, but they will be if the country is trifurcated ..

tahmed#221:

Okay, you win. You are not an admirer of the West. I have to go to Montreal now. Have a nice weekend.

hamidm#220:

I am not saying that big is necessarily better but can you honestly say that the Iraqis are now safer, better fed, clothed or even less under the Mullah yoke than they were under Saddam? In case you missed, your friends have turned perhaps the least sexist and most secular Arab country into a sharia-based one. Great going!

Also, you underestimate the Intelligence strength of the neocons' middle eastern friends. They knew better than anyone else the shia-sunni schism in Iraq.

tahmed writes to dm "Accusations and misrepresentation of views without burdening oneself with substantiating them is your privilege. Not wasting my time with them is mine.

Have a nice day"

Please note this oft repeated "strategy" of this moron. Whenever stumped by an argument he claims responding to it is a "waste of his time", when his dimwitted arguments (always in support of the official US position- submitting to them completely), and not only ill thought out they are mere cheerleading and fake emotionalism. Ignore this sos (where the latter s stands for swine), only keep exposing him and his pro-West BS.

#202 Urstruly,

It is anybody's guess that Bezamir has brought with her truck loads of dollars to establish PPP militias, which will be obviously trained by NaPak fouj. The civil war is written on the wall and so is the kidnappings, torture, and abu-ghraibs.

Right on the mark. That's what the newly recruited 20,000 strong "Janisaar-e-Benazir" are obviously for. Add the MQM armed wing to it and you have a perfect Iraq/Nicaragua mix Negreponte style.

Re: # 220


The fault lines are less with respect to language and culture - there were thousands of small tribes each claiming to be a nation but all that is now past- even one mohallah and gali claimed to be a different nation !!! But that is all gone. Presently the fault lines are more in respect of religious differences especially where Islam comes in to claim its political space.

where are these shameless 138 mullahs who claim to be brokering the peace between Islam and rest of the world!!!

How about attaining some peace with in themselves first?

hamidm #216 the prescription you provide (fire all iraqis) was tried early on, and even its authors now admit that it was one of the biggest blunders in the iraq war. And who was sent to run Iraq - individuals who passed the neo-con ideology test. Thus, a 21-22 year old genius was put in charge of building the iraqi stock exchange e.g.

over eid, i met an iraqi gentleman with most of his family living in baghdad - i asked him what was the biggest problem his family faced, and he surprised me by saying it was the lack of electricity (not security). I asked him why was electricity such a big problem - he told me that all electric generators were blown up in the war by the geniuses running the war. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!

#217 dost mittar: so, you misrepresent my views, are unable to back it with anything other than a post written without the benefit of hindsight over four years ago which I then take the trouble of explaining. You ignore that, and rather than simply apologizing for misrepresenting my views you do some masadi-style stonewalling by claiming that you didnt have the heart to look for the really, really terrible posts I had written.

Enough said. Have a good day.

Re: # 218

dost,

.... your line of reasoning is pretty good even though i don't fully agree with - i seriously doubt the neocons had any idea that there was so much animosity and hatred between the various groups in iraq ..... but now that it is obvious that these people cannot live together in peace, a trifurcation might be the best solution for the people .......

.......the notion that big is better does not hold true for nation states ..... the people of the chezk republic and slovakia are much better off today, as are the people of slovenia, serbia, bosnia and montenegro (and russia)......... if the british hadn't arrived on the scene to hold 'india' together, the subcontinent would have been like europe, consisting of many independent states, and we would all have been better off ..... imagine an independent punjab without the burden of bihar or waziristan ........ sigh !

SRK#215:

B. Raman is not the only one. Hamid Mir is saying the same thing:

Url: http://ia.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/19hamid.htm

Excerpt:



"The PPP leadership pointed their fingers towards the head of the Intelligence Bureau Brig (Rtd) Ejaz Shah as the person responsible for the bombings.

Even Benazir mentioned his name with displeasure few days ago in London and claimed that Ejaz Shah is trying to sabotage a reconciliation between the PPP and Musharraf.

Now the big question is why does the PPP think that the head of a civilian intelligence agency is the mastermind of the great tragedy in Karachi on October 18? Asif Ali Zardari told this writer that Ejaz Shah have old links with Islamic radicals.

He claimed Ejaz Shah was the person who managed the surrender of Omer Sheikh in 2002, a suspect in the killing of American journalist Daniel Pearl. Asif Ali Zardari is sure that people like Ejaz Shah have encouraged Islamic radicals to attack Benazir.

Ejaz Shah was the home secretary of the Punjab province in 2002. He belongs to Nankana Sahib area of Punjab. Mother of Omer Sheikh was also from Nankana Sahib. When security agencies raided the house of her mother's parents in Nankana Sahib, Ejaz Shah contacted the uncle of the alleged terrorist who was a session judge at that time.

Uncle convinced his nephew through Ejaz Shah to surrender and that was how Omer Sheikh was arrested.

Some PPP sources have said that Ejaz Shah was the person who created the Pakistan Mulsim League-Q in Punjab. He was also a key figure in breaking more than 20 members of the national assembly from the PPP after the election in 2002. This is why the PPP leadership has problems with him.

People like Abida Husain who left the PML-Q and joined the PPP due to the disliking of Ejaz Shah are also trying to poison Benazir against their old enemy. Ejaz Shah is being considered a trusted confidant of General Pervaiz Musharraf but he is also very close to chaudhries of Gujrat.

According to reliable sources, Benzair Bhutto have declared not only Ejaz Shah but also Chief Minister of Punjab Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi as the enemies of her life in a letter to Musharraf recently.

Top government sources are not ready to agree with Benazir. They think Benazir should make an alliance with Musharraf against terrorism instead of fighting with the old allies of Musharraf. One source claimed that Ejaz Shah, who was the head of anti-narcotics force in 1998, refused to do Nawaz Sharif's bidding when the then prime minister tried to involve Asif Ali Zardari in a norcotics case. The Nawaz regime later booked Zardari in the same fake case with the help of the Punjab police.

It is also viewed by some government circles that head of a civilian intelligence agency is a soft target for the PPP and the real target is the boss of Ejaz Shah, who is, no doubt, General Pervez Musharraf [Images].

The PPP is trying to pressurize Musharraf by targeting people like Ejaz Shah and Ch. Pervaiz Elahi for getting some more concessions. It is also believed that this mistrust between the PPP and Musharraf is not good for both of them.

Musharraf called Benazir on Thursday and condoled the death of her workers in suicide bombings. Musharraf conveyed a message that we must be united against terrorism and not fight with each other. Musharraf also asked the leadership of the PML-Q not to make statements against the PPP. Both the PPP and the PML-Q will face a big challenge in the coming months.

All the intelligence agencies are concerned about is the coming general election. Not only Benazir, but also many leaders of the PML-Q are on the hit list of suicide bombers and it would be difficult to organise public meetings and rallies during the election compaign. The differences between the PPP and the PML-Q will only help the opponents of Musharraf.

Pakistan is going through a very critical time today. It needs reconciliation not only between some individuals but also between political parties having adverse views. 40 years ago Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto wrote a book The Great Tragedy just six months before the disintegration of Pakistan.

He started his book by saying: 'Pakistan is passing through a terrible ordeal. This country, born in pain, is experiencing its gravest crisis. The nightmare of Pakistanis killing Pakistanis is not yet over. Blood is still being spilled. The situation has become greatly complicated by the aggressive involvement of India'.

40 years after, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's daughter is blaming not India but some Pakistanis for the great tragedy in Karachi. The nightmare of Pakistanis killing Pakistanis is still not over.

Musharraf should at least investigate who was actually responsible for shutting down the street lights on Shahra-e-Faisal just few moments before the bombers struck.

He owes it to Benazir."

hamidm#216:

I have a different take from most people on this issue and had once expressed my views in an exchange with Romair, now bulleya.

I do not think that the Iraq war has been a failure for everyone. There was one group, I think, that knew exactly what its goal was and has achieved that goal remarkably well. These were the neocons.

Neocons and the oil lobby were the two groups supporting the Iraq war. While the oil lobby was interested in securing oil, the neocons were interested in the dismemberment of the Iraqi state and not just the removal of Saddam Hussain. This purpose would not have been served by any of the things which you suggest because that would have preserved a strong and unified Iraq. If you notice carefully, the neocons war-mongers have largely left the scene and columnists like Thomas Friedman, who were so gung-ho about Iraq, are now seeking a withdrawal from there. There purpose has been served and they are now even supporting a formal trifurcation of that country.. The state of Iraq has been destroyed.

On the other hand, the oil lobby, led by Cheney, is still interested in a stable source of oil supplies and is therefore not in favour of a withdrawal.

tahmed#211:

"o, you had to go back four and a half years on chowk before finding something I had written!!"

Yes, I googled chowk and picked up a random relevant interact from before the war started; indeed, I would have to go even farther to give evidence of support for the Afghan bombing. However, this sample was not the strongest one you wrote but I really hated doing what I did and have no stomach for doing this sort of thing any more.

The point however is that you have defended the US bombings of foreign countries, even its use of the nukes on other countries. Whether the US is justified in attacking undemocratic countries (and only those it doesn't like, it has no problem in supporting undemocratic regimes in China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and various countries in the Gulf and Latin America) is another matter.

Re: # 213

tahmed,

.... you read me wrong .... tommy franks was not in charge of iraq, he was just a battlefield general ...... what i meant was that bush should have put an american administration in place for 10-15 years with the highest ranking iraqi being the deputy dog-catcher in baghdad .....

... also i was referring to iran as being the next nazi germany and not some terrorist holed up in waziristan ........

BB is pointing finger at "certain people". Any guesses on who those people are? One Indian analyst ( B Raman) is saying that it is Ejaj Shah. Is that correct?

It is sad to see so many people losing their lives.

The mistake in Iraq started with not enough troops on the ground so the culprit is actually Rumsfeild and by continuing with him' Bush the CnC.

#212 hamidm: last i checked, Franks was an american general - and he screwed up royally by not providing for a peaceful transition to democracy by assuming that once saddam was gone, all iraqis would get together like little munchkins singing "Ding Dong, the Witch is dead!!".

As for the islamic terrorist becoming another Nazi Germany - I think they are more like the baader-meinhof gang than nazi germany (but dont hold me to this - unlike Romair, I do not have perfect foresight).

Re: # 211

tahmed,

... stop being such a wus and a monday morning quarterback ..... bush did the right thing in iraq; his only fault is that he didn't put in enough forces and tried to turn it over to the iraqis too soon - he should have put an american general in charge and told the bedouins to cool their heels for at least ten years while he kicked their nightgowned asses into shape ...... these people are not ready to run their own affairs yet ......

as for iran, i think it will be a mistake to wait too long .... once the iranians have nukes they will be much harder to deal with - it is time to bomb all their military facilities and enforce a comple economic embargo with a naval and air blockade ...... that regime must go ... now! ..... however, as i have said many times before, the root cause of all the troubles in the world is the province of hijaz - it must be liberated and put under under the control of the united nations ........

......... this problem has to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a bigger problem like nazi germany .......

... thank you for your support ..

dost mittar: So, you had to go back four and a half years on chowk before finding something I had written!! That in itself shows the weakness of your claim that I provide uncritical support of the west.

And lets not stop here. Lets examine what I wrote:

Your concern is that a US attack on Iraq will set a precedence for the US to attack any country at will. I dont share this concern, for a number of reasons. History shows democracies generally do not initiate aggressive wars. This is done by dictatorships, kingships etc. in their persuit of glory and retention of their personal rule. In a democracy like the US, there are too many countervailing forces, as indeed the intense debate on the subject within the US demonstrates.

My "uncritical support" above is clearly not to the west per se (unless you think that Putin's Russia is not a part of the west, or that Nazi Germany e.g. was not a part of the west), but of democratic societies. Big difference!! So, this does not back your claim.

I continued: And this is despite the fact that there is a very strong case for the US to attack Iraq and to take out Saddam Hussein. I was obviously wrong in assuming that the Bush Administration was telling the truth when it presented Powell presented the evidence at the UN. Had I known how fake the whole deal was, I would not have said this. So here again, you were too quick to jump to conclusions about my views without providing me the courtesy of asking.

I continue: And even if the US were to attack an undemocratic regime like Iran, I personally would shed no tears: the inhabitants of such countries are effectively dienfranchised, and their basic human rights to hold and express their opinions are already curbed, so at worst (which, realistically speaking, wont happen anyway) they will simply exchange rulers and at best (which is much more likely) they will be on the road to democracy and freedom. Look at how the US occupation of Japan freed that country from the dictatorship of the Japanese militarists and a god-like emperor into a modern, peace-loving and progressive nation. No Japanese seriously wishes to start worshipping their political rulers again.

I was correct in saying that the Iranian regime is undemocratic, and I was correct in pointing to the historic benefits that the US occupation of Japan and Germany after World War II provided to those countries - i.e. they have emerged as robust democracies. I was incorrect in assuming that the US would repeat this performance under Bush. Given the mess made by the Bush regime in Iraq, the innocent people killed, would I suggest it mess with Iran? Of course not.

So, next time you presume to present my views, I suggest you provide me the courtesy of asking first.

And btw, the above post - written four and a half years ago - still does not support the what I said were lies written by masadi, as I had said earlier. So I can only assume that I was correct in noting that the difference between a lie and the truth is not important to you as long as you like what you hear.

Re: # 202

urstruly,

....why is your heart sinking ? ... i thought that this is what you had hoped for - a showdown between the momineen and the kafiroon ........ are you hedging your bets now? .... don't worry, if things don't work out for the party of al-lah, you can apply for political asylum in the us (unless you have already done it once) ......

tahmed32:

Here is one of the "namoonas" of your support for the US invasion of not only Iraq but possibly of Iran as well:

" #25 Posted by tahmed32 on March 8, 2003 9:27:34 am
Your concern is that a US attack on Iraq will set a precedence for the US to attack any country at will. I dont share this concern, for a number of reasons. History shows democracies generally do not initiate aggressive wars. This is done by dictatorships, kingships etc. in their persuit of glory and retention of their personal rule. In a democracy like the US, there are too many countervailing forces, as indeed the intense debate on the subject within the US demonstrates. And this is despite the fact that there is a very strong case for the US to attack Iraq and to take out Saddam Hussein.
And even if the US were to attack an undemocratic regime like Iran, I personally would shed no tears: the inhabitants of such countries are effectively dienfranchised, and their basic human rights to hold and express their opinions are already curbed, so at worst (which, realistically speaking, wont happen anyway) they will simply exchange rulers and at best (which is much more likely) they will be on the road to democracy and freedom. Look at how the US occupation of Japan freed that country from the dictatorship of the Japanese militarists and a god-like emperor into a modern, peace-loving and progressive nation. No Japanese seriously wishes to start worshipping their political rulers again.

#207 dm: "Now, do you want me to dig up those posts?"

That is what I have been asking you, isnt it? Go get them, then we can talk.

You are welcome to think what you like about Goldsteen.

tahmed32:

Not that fast, braather. It's easy to summarise your or anyone else's views, one does not have to dig through thousands of posts of anyone, including yours and mine, to know one's views on chowk - we all repeat our views all the time. For example, I do not have to go through hamidm's posts to know that he hates Islam but is still a proud and patriotic Pakistani, or that naqshbandi is in awe of the sufis.

That said, I did point out to your uncritical and repeated support of the US bombing attacks on Afghans and Iraqis. Now, do you want me to dig up those posts?

As regards Mr. Goldstein, he was not from the West and probably not even an Israeli, perhaps just an Indian pretending to be one. And of the posts that I recall, you never criticised the West in your rejoinders to him.

dm: So, you had the time to summarize my views, but are too busy to show where these views came from. And it is indeed presumptious on your part to expect me to spend the time proving my innocence to you!!

Accusations and misrepresentation of views without burdening oneself with substantiating them is your privilege. Not wasting my time with them is mine.

Have a nice day.

Re: # 179 Posted by hamidm2 on October 19, 2007 5:19:00 am

(...today america alone bears the white man's burden to civilize the barbaric world - specially the mahommedans .......).....Why?

And who would civilize the so-called civilized anglos?

#199 Posted by mohar11

who do you think did this blast on BB?

The same people who shot her brother alongwith six crack armed guards cleanly through the head and neck right there on the street from tree tops without anyone getting a chance to raise their weapons, and the Police SHO on picket duty who was a witness was found strangled the next morning in Police quarters with many sleeping alongside not noticing.

There are many sinister forces opposed to the Bhutto family in Pakistan. Blaming it on the Waziris is simplistic BS.

The alleged Baitullah-Mehsood threat has been denied by the original source quoted by daily times, Senator Saleh Shah, as utterly rubbish on television today. It never occurred.

tahmed32:

Your views are as important as that of urstruly or masadi or naqsh because, like them, you have a unique viewpoint on Islam and one much more like some of us non-muslims would like Islam to be.

As for my saying that you are uncritical of the west, I am too lazy to dig up old posts but, as I recall, you were always in favour of the US bombings of Iraq and Afghanistan, which were bound to create a lot of innocent people getting killed and defended the US as vigorously as you defend Islam. I especially recall our engagement before the US attacked Iraq and our disagreement as to the intent of the US in undertaking its Iraq mission.

Now, I am not on the chowk 24/7 and so may have missed any posts from you critical of the West. If so, please reproduce them for my benefit and I will correct myself.

I wasn't expecting an attack on Bezamir so soon. My guestimate was that of with in one month. The American strategy is quite clear after Negroponte took over the Pakistani affairs from Armitage. Negroponte has decades of experience of establishing death squads and creating civil wars around the globe specially in South America, Iraq, and Afhanistan. American strategy is to mobilize the civilians against civilians; in this case PPP militias will be established and pitted against the religious elements. A dejavu of Iraq where Shia militias and state apparatus was organized by Negroponte to crush sunni resistence, which they identified with AlQaida. Whether that policy worked or not does not concern Americans much because as long as someone else is getting massacred while keeping the American casualties low, "unna day lun tay thand eh" as the Punjabi proverb goes. It is anybody's guess that Bezamir has brought with her truck loads of dollars to establish PPP militias, which will be obviously trained by NaPak fouj. The civil war is written on the wall and so is the kidnappings, torture, and abu-ghraibs. NaPak fouj is already building 14 new jails (read torture and interrogation centers) for "extra-ordinary renditioned" citizens of Pakistan in Punjab alone at the cost of Rs. 3 Billion (with a "b"). The unholy alliance of NaPak fouj and liberal-fascists has turned into a hyperactive monkey that has a sharp open blade in his hand (as the urdu proverb goes).

I hope I am wrong but it does not seem likely. Regarding the attack on Bezamir I in fact had placed a bet with a friend of mine who proclaimed that minute the bezamir will step onto Pakistani soil, somehow Pakistani society will turn into paradise of democracy and tolerance. I told him what I've said above and told him that Bezamir and PPP will be attacked with in a month - and if it did not happen I will "mooter day naal apni muchchaN munn diyaN gaa", as punjabi proverb goes. I am not happy to see my moustaches saved today. My heart is sinking.

DM: Thanks for summarizing my views. I didnt realize they were so important.

On my challenging Indians coming to chowk painting all Pakistanis as criminals and terrorists and painting Islam as an evil religion - I am guilty as charged of showing them the mirror of the ugliness within India.

On your sayhing that I am an Uncritical Admirer of the West. Kindly provide me some evidence of what I have written to back your statement and I will be glad to consider that. Thanks in advance.

As for our applauding Masadi: he was claiming that I maintain certain views that he failed to back with anything I wrote. So, I assume you dont give any weight to truth vs lies as long as you like what is being said. Since masadi failed to back his claim, I suggest you being a more intelligent person, help substantiate Masadi's statement I referred to above.

btw, one of the few times we had "western" visitors, in the form of a couple of Israeli extremists who came to join the Indian posters in berating Pakistan - I was the only Pakistani poster as far as I recall to challenge them on what they wrote, and one of them (Goldsteen or something was his nick, and he had identified himself as a Tel Aviv lawyer) was mad enough to threaten me with the Tel Aviv underground!! So, how does this reconcile with your statement of my being an uncritical admirer of the west? And where were the echobooms of chowk when these israeli nuts were happily berating muslims and Pakistan?

Re: # 199

mohar,

... i should warn you .... zeemax also thinks the 9/11 attack on wtc was cia/jewish conspiracty

zee

who do you think did this blast on BB?

hamidm#161:

I think that there is more validity to masadi's accusation of our mutual friend tahmed as an uncritical admirer of the West than your putting him in the same category as the zees and urstrulys.

From the way I have understood tahmed during the last several years at chowk, he too hates the same things about Islam that you do. But unlike you, he loves his faith and is no less passionate about it than the likes of zee, urstruly or naqsh. So, he refuses to blame what you think is the root cause, the Book and the Prophet, and blames the Mullahs for everything that ails the islamic world as nothing ails Islam if I understand him correctly. I consider him to be truly eligible for the title of the Defender of the Faith and he will not tolerate any criticism of Muslims without at the same time mentioning that other religions, especially the pesky Hindus, are guilty of a lot worse.

Allah hu!!

Wow, these pure bloodied momeems are amazing !! They can blow themselves up and hundreds of other munafiqoons in order to ensure that purity of Islam is not diluted by a women aspiring to be the PM or that by that clean shaven man in army uniform.......

Allah hu!!!!

Actually these MMA mullahs are just a front for the Talibanis.

MMA actually is scared of women as Prime Minister of the pure Islami land of Pakistan. Imagine a woman leading all those pure bloodied momeens as Prime Minister when she should actually be at home working for her family in purdah.

Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khanin Feb 1999 "Jamhooria Islamia" interview says it more explicitely-

EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN IS STUPIDITY
Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom of women while some progressive Muslim intellectuals are insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres. What are Qazi's views on women?
A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) views on women are the exact views of Qazi Ahmed and the Jamat. Equality of men and women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do. Women are weak physically and mentally compared to men. Men have to take care of women all the time.
WOMEN MUST STAY HOME
Women should not have a life outside the family. Education can be provided to them, but not to compete with men in public.
NO VOTING RIGHTS FOR WOMEN UNDER SHARIA
Qazi had said once that when JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities. Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is it that it is never talked about openly in the public by the Jamaat? Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI did not make it a big issue since the women who currently have the voting rights may vote against JI in the elections if such a thing is said openly.
NON MUSLIMS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST PAY JIZYA
Q: That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?
A: Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi Ahmed , the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors."

That Mushy is not only strange, he appears to be totally retarded.

In the case of Lal Masjid, where there was no imminent threat to public security and citizens' lives, he moved in a deliberate, massive, costly, and murderous manner to kill hundreds.

In the case of Karachi, where there were open threats from Wanna Wanna about suicide bombing, this imbecile dictator provided no security for the unruly mob of welcoming paindoos.

...and this is the genius who was going to take Kargil away from the Injuns?

Baitullah Mehsud had already warned that suicide bombers would be waiting to "receive" her. And that was really another magnificient work of a "true muslim".

Re: # 191

zeemax,

..... your pir and murshid, liaqat baloch, has already been on tv, desperately trying to pin it mqm, but i think it is the jihadis because benazir is their biggest nightmare - a woman! .... why do you guys fear women so much? ... but that is another discussion altogether

.... anyway, i think this might be a good thing because now the line will be clearly drawn between the islamists and normal people ..... i hope ppp will be able to bury the hatchet and join hands with mqm, anp, america, the army, and the baluch nationalist parties to make sure al-lah doesn't take over the country with help from the mma, imran khan and the pml(q&n)....

#186 Posted by hamidm2

...... save your wrath for real jihadis like zeemax and urstruly ...

Why Thank You :)

But honestly, the Jihadis didn't do this one. They did the earlier one on the PPP reception counter in Islamabad, and all the others on army etc so far, but not this one. Look elsewhere as to who did it and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Shameless, wanton, and stupid loss of life in Karachi

I have been trying to write an article regarding violence, war, terrorism, suicide bombings, and other forms of humanity's attempt to prove Darwin right. Of course, my thoughts, like everyone else's, have been disrupted by this senseless and stupid slaughter in my beloved Karachi.

While it is easy to blame Bezamir Bhootni for her imbecile and slow procession from Quaid-e-Azam International to Quaid-e-Asam National, we need to step back, control our emotions, wipe off the tears, and make some objective observations.

Bezamir Bhootni
She should have selected prudence over pride. People in Wanna Wanna had threatened suicide attacks. Karachi is infested with adherents of all kinds of violent behavior. Instead of sneaking through the back door opened by Mushy, she should:

1. Show sincerity to her cause of democracy by challenging Mushy
2. Show some more sincerity by either wearing a hijab or going proudly with a naked head. This constant adjusting and readjusting of the dopatta is betraying her as a coward, an appeaser, and an opportunist - which she is.
3. Show some real courage in either accepting her family's role in corruption or come clean by refuting each and every charge of embezzlement against her and her husband.
4. Apologize for her violent suppression of Karachi's population and for using hurtful, racist, and bigoted terms for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs.

MQM
MQM cannot walk away from this one so easily. Helping Bezamir Bhootni sneak through the back door exposes MQM as Mushy's lackeys. MQM should have demanded that Bezamir renounce her racist, bigoted, and violent conduct while she was PM. Also, MQM leadership of Karachi displayed some sound logic by not allowing the corrupt CJ to make an ass out of himself on May 12. The same approach should have been taken in this case.

Mushy
The first job of any government, regardless of how legitimate or illegal, is to protect the lives, liberties, and properties of citizens. Mushy has failed miserably and needs to be removed - immediately. Also, lately he is coming across as a viceroy of Washington - not to mention being the lackey of a lame duck king.

Sindhis
Importing hundreds of thousands of illiterate and disorganized rural Sindhis and endangering their lives, along with the lives of police, common citizens, and spectators falls into the STUPID category. Mass hysteria of jubilation at the return of a corrupt landlord betrays these people as a backward, naive, and unsophisticated bunch.

Jihadists, Tally Ban, AlKaida, Wahaboobis
What can we say more about this plague? From Algeria to Kenya, from Tanzania to Turkey, from Bangladesh to Iraq, from Lebanon to Ajmer Sharif, and from Peshawar to Karachi to Lahore to Kashmir, to Mumbai to Delhi, these murderers are killing everyone - Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and others. For all their self-proclaimed love of Islam, these modern-day "Crusaders" are killing more Muslims than their 11th and 12th century predecessors. Someone needs to expose this vermin as a genuine threat to Islam and Muslims and wipe them out in one final act of righteous JIHAD.

Here is something to chew upon for all those who want to deny the Interview of Maulana Nabiullah Khan of Jamaat-e-Islamia.

He is really EXPLICIT in his statement that he wants Hindus as slaves of Pakistanis. Sure, after all that is what the Hadith-based-Sunnat requires with respect to the dhimmi hindus. That is what Moghuls did to hindu idolators and that is the most 'logical' thing for him to demand from a Pakistani muslim.

"AMAT WILL BRING SLAVERY BACK TO PAKISTAN Arabians own slaves. Though Allah says that the slaves should be treated in a nice manner, he did not advocate the abolition of slavery. If slavery is bad as considered in today's world, Allah certainly would have said that slavery is wrong. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) also said that the slaves should be treated in a good manner and the slaves should be released often. But if there is no slavery, how can anyone release slaves? Hence the re-introduction of slavery in Pakistan is one of the future plans of the Jamaat.
ALL CAPTURED HINDUS WILL BE MADE SLAVES
All the captured Hindu Indians and Srilankans will be made slaves to work for Pakistani Muslims. Every God-abiding Pakistani Muslim will get slaves once we conquer India. All the slaves who embrace Islam will be set free. Slavery is Islamic. Jamaat is the only political party, which does not voice any opposition to the slavery in Pakistan. We went around all over Arabia. We were surprised to know that there are some Hindus in Yemen. These ancient Yemeni Hindus are not Indians. In my opinion, these Hindus are traders from India in the ancient times. I was also surprised to know that they have a Shiva temple in Yemen. Qazi was very unhappy over this. When he talked to the Yemen leaders, he broached this subject. But the Yemeni leaders refused Qazi's suggestion of forced conversion of these people to Islam. I don't know why they refused. I think it may be due to the large population of Hindus from India who work in Yemen and Arabia. He disliked the current leadership of Arabia for this reason.
In his opinion, Arabia should not allow any non-Muslim into the holy lands of Arabia. Arabia should be 100% pure. A large number of Hindus in Arabia is corrupting the Arabians. Though they live as contractors, they have the potential to corrupt the minds of the Arabians.
HINDU TEMPLES POLLUTE MUSLIM LANDS
One such thing is the presence of Arabians in the Qatar Hindu temple. First the king allowed the Hindus to build a temple and church in the holy lands, thereby polluting the Holy Land. Second is that even a member of the Royal family visited that temple to inaugurate that temple. To the horror of Qazi, he had learnt that one of the powerful members of the Qatar Royal family is a devotee of a god called Aayappan. This news resolved Qazi to fight the force of the devil thousand fold.
Q: Such things happen in Pakistan today. I mean a friend of mine goes to a Hindu temple. Another friend goes to church meetings.
A: Yes. One of Qazi's relatives wanted to become a Hindu. He did not have a child for many years and it seems he had prayed to a Hindu God and got the child. Hence he felt thankful to that god and wanted to become a Hindu. Qazi got to know of this and called him and threatened him with dire consequences. That relative did not become a Hindu. But that incident made Qazi read more about apostasy.
PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY IS DEATH
Quran and Hadith clearly say the punishment for abandonment of Islam is death. Since Sharia is not the law in Pakistan, and the current Pakistani Constitution grants the right to change religion, it is legally correct to declare oneself as Hindu or Christian. But once the JI takes over the government, it will make Sharia as the Constitution. Then Pakistan will also legally execute any person who leaves Islam and joins Ahmaddiah, Christianity or Hinduism the same way Iran and Taliban treats its apostates. He also opined that the presence of the Hindu temples in Pakistan is the root cause of the problem and hence we want to destroy all the Hindu temples and Churches in Pakistan.
Q: This brings us into another area. Right now the Internet is becoming widespread. Even Saudi Arabia is connected with the outside world. Destroying the temples may be good, but how can we insulate the Pakistani and Muslim people against the corrupting knowledge totally?
A: JI had taken a principled stand on the matter of science and religion. Religion is far superior to science.
ALL THE WORLD�S KNOWLEDGE IS IN QURAN AND HADITHS
Whatever man needs to know is in the Quran and Hadiths. Knowing more will create problems like the Atom bomb and Television. "

Re: # 185

Hmmm, I thought someone said that only when the remaining
hinjew influence in Pakistan is removed, Pakistan will
be peaceful and prosperous...

bb is making a speech. you can see it live on www.jumptv.com and selecting aajTV. despite her past misdeeds, she has definitely risen to the occasion!!

Re: # 185

okhla99,

.... leave masadi alone - he is just a frustrated gasbag who will settle down as soon as he finds a real job and qualifies for a car loan from citibank ...... save your wrath for real jihadis like zeemax and urstruly

Utterly and completely respected Masadi,

Do you know that "they" are now coming after you in Pakistan? Mullah Omar, Laden and all of you foaming mouth Jihadis are soon going to be rounded up.

The rest of the world may consist of "dimwits" and "peons" (in your respected opinion, that is), but extremist folks like your badself are going to get wiped out. The writing is on the wall. Every one (literate) can read it. You cannot, for some reason. We all pray for the success of this enterprise (elimination of the extremists with US help).

Only then shall peace return to Pakistan.

masadi: Now is the time for you to try the good Dr. Shankar's prescription (i.e. to practice not blaming the US every time you have stomach gas).

I know it hurts, but it will do you good. You might even get a real job...

hamidm: not being perfect like you and masadi, i realize that i may write something that on reconsideration is incorrect and then i have no problem taking back what i said.

however, i dont need to back down from something i never said. i dont expect masadi to understand this simple point, but i have high hopes from you.

hamid writes "....... and you can always quote me on this - unlike tahmed, i will never back down from this statement ..... it happens to be the truth"

I appreciate your honesty unlike tahmed you're no hypocrite even though you're a master moron...

Now, don't think I am posting these because I want to prove something to tahmed, not at all. I know his mentality and i consider him a sos, where the latter s stands for swine. These posts were made for the benefit of the people on Chowk so they understand the enemy of the people, they understand those that talk big about Pakistan yet are encouraging our further slavery to the white man. Know them, know them well for come the day of atonement, you will see how the people deal with their kind...

Tahmed writes "This is the best you could come up with from the thousands of posts I have written on chowk: "The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence."

Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?"


Let me give the half brained retards a lesson in comprehension: What is the above quote telling you?

It is telling you a positive of the British Colonization of India, in the context of how the current Iraq war will similarly benefit Iraqis and that positive he says is the "democratic and secular tradition in India" (even though the Brits who had a master slave relation with the Indians and flooded the land with Christian missionaries- had nothing to do either with democracy or with secularism). Now he tells in the second sentence as "Proof" that his Indonesian friend was crying about the Dutch and not the Brits colonizing them because if the Brits did that Indonesia would have strong democratic roots as well.

Now, there are two points in this second part, first, he proclaims the superiority of the Brits as "masters" to the Dutch and second he proclaims the superiority of the Brits as "democracy originators" over the indigeneous systems which by the way it is presented is assumed to be "inferior" to democracy (attributed to the British).

There you have the nuts and bolts of his statement and even if you are a half brained moron, you can read the entire article and get the exact same message and theme...

Re: # 177

masadi,

.... if it is any consolation, i will confess that i truly believe that today america alone bears the white man's burden to civilize the barbaric world - specially the mahommedans .......

....... and you can always quote me on this - unlike tahmed, i will never back down from this statement ..... it happens to be the truth

hamid writes "if it hadn't been for colonization you would have been running around naked chasing your dinner ! ...... "

No, if it hadn't been for colonization Pakistanis wouldn't now be grovelling in their excrement suffering from countless infectious diseases that the "civilized" British had a long history of doing...

tahmed writes "The seeds for terrorism in Pakistan were sown by zia..."

No, they were sown by your masters the Americans whose peon Zia was and who was helped by the Americans and whose dictatorship was legitimized by their wheeling and dealing with him in fighting a proxy cold war in Afghanistan. That you are trying to hide all the negatives of the US elite you worship, including their rampant racism around the globe and at home, is by itself evidence that you support their barbarism i.e. neo-colonization around the globe not to mention your explicit support in that third rate article you wrote...

Re: # 174

masadi,

... you ingrate! ....... if it hadn't been for colonization you would have been running around naked chasing your dinner ! ......

Even though it is extremely clear from the posts of tahmed and the points of views he supports that he i) supports the British colonization of India and ii) Considers them and what he describes as the Anglo Saxon Ethos "superior" to that of our people, let me give him a chance to prove that I am the liar as he says.

Let him explicitly state here that he i) Condemns the colonization of India by the British and ii) that Anglo Saxon Ethos and the British tradition in our lands is absolutely not superior to anything indigeneous.

Let him state this explicitly, he will not because HE is the lying hypocrite

majumdar writes "Tahmed sahib seems to be reporting what his Indonesian friend had commented on. Does he say that he believes in what his friend says?"

You happen to be the half brained retard that I was referring to in the previous post. Read that comment in the context of the POSITIVES he is presenting of the tradition of US/UK colonization and the war on Iraq. Have you bothered to read the article where he is listing the positives of colonizaton and US/UK domination as he builds his case for the Iraq war.

Tahmed writes "Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?

You remain a liar. "

Only a half brain retard, after reading your article, will conclude otherwise. Your entire article as well as that quote where you present as PROOF the fact that your indonesian friend was bemoaning that the Dutch instead of the British colonized them otherwise they would be better, tells the reader that you supported the British colonization of India when you present the positives of that colonization. You are the liar and when caught with your pants down and exposed, you put your tail between your legs and whimper away like a person with extremely weak and shallow morals...

hamidm: I can understand your anger at the murder of over a hundred people in a peaceful crowd yesterday. But dont take it out on me or on Islam. I am being factual when I say that muslim societies in history have in fact been quite tolerant of minorities (e.g. after the fall of muslim rule in Spain, thousands of spanish jews chose to migrate to ottoman turkey rather than stay in spain or go to any other european country).

The seeds for terrorism in Pakistan were sown by zia, and the crop tenderly cared for by musharraf as part of his policy of presenting his dictatorship as being the only option to takeover by extremists. You are merely projecting your distaste for the "islamic culture" inflicted upon you as a child to ignore this simple fact and join hindu and christian religious fanatics in demonizing islam.

masadi: this is your statement that i had said was a lie and challenged you to cut and paste anything I had written to back it: People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

This is the best you could come up with from the thousands of posts I have written on chowk: "The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence."

Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?

You remain a liar.

Masadi sahib,

(An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. )

Tahmed sahib seems to be reporting what his Indonesian friend had commented on. Does he say that he believes in what his friend says?

Regards

tahmed writes "You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim. "

I have done just that copy pasting many times and every time you, like a man of weak morals, put your tail between your legs and whimper away. The article that you wrote in support of the US invasion of Iraq, in that you sung the praises of British colonization- what you called the Anglo Saxon ethos in your support of colonization and the neo-colonization of the Americans, and you don't praise something compared to the other (in this case the local scene) unless you consider it superior. Now, I know that you possess the intellect of a five year old which goes to the extent of cheerleading for the US elite and colonization.

Here is an exact quote from your article:

QUOTE :c. India: The Jewel in the Crown of the British Empire. The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. END QUOTE ( from tahmed article "Open Letter to those Opposing the Iraq War, http://www.chowk.com/articles/6036)

Now we all know who the liar and hypocrite is, and it is you Tauheed Ahmed, peon of the West.

Read about one Nobel Laureate Watson's comments on black people's intelligence. Another Nobel Laureate William Shockley too had come to similar conclusions. Monkey chatting crowds in Bardoa, Karachi, Madrid and quite a few European cities. Senor Aragones, the coach of the Spanish team calling Thierry Henry black sh*t.

It seems that the followers of the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak are spread all over the globe.

Regards

Re: # 163

madani sahib,

......... i think it is time for ppp and mqm to put aside their differences and form a common front against the islamists which will soon include pml(n&q), mma and imran khan ..... they should also try to get anp and the baluch nationalist parties on board ....... the line between the islamists and the civilized people is being drawn and it will be a long and tough fight .......

Re: # 161

tahmed,

.... so i gather that you would be happy to pay a special tax if your kids were exempted from the draft ? .... how about not being able to run for president of the us ? .... at this rate i am sure you also wouldn't mind wearing a green tie to identify you as a muslim ?

....... when people like you push the notion that islam is perfect (or at least better than sliced bread) it echoes the extremist point of view ...... as long as muslims actually believe that their religion is perfect and that everyone else is bound for hell, we cannot have peace on earth ...... sometimes you remind me of dr israr ........

Re: # 164
This article is not related to pakistan seems more whitenations related. Pakistan has no problem with christians. But there is clsh of 60 years going between Indian cultural( Hindian) ethos and pakistani( Muslim) ethos that is civilisation clash relevaent to des.But this is not new clash. This problem they bring and discuss west and east clash but indian/ pakistani clash is real thing, christian west is just repeation of old things. This is reason my intelluctual and little some times angry friend Mr.Masadi is saying for some time, but most are wrining wrong things at wrong time and wrong place. bye

Re: # 130 Posted by HP on October 17, 2007 8:43:54 pm

[The brouhaha on immigration is clearly based on racism.] This is clearly not true. The Anglo-Saxon culture of North America is predominantly of puritan protestant Christian faith, whilst Mexican illegals have brought catholic religion into the US. That is where the immigration argument is.

Re: # 132 Thanks mr. Masadi for agreeing with me about western brainwashing done by british elites about color complexion in desh. I will request you to contribute all you can but just refrain from personal attacks or individuals quarrelling.Have good day.
Today is very sad day but luckly Mrs Bhutto is survived is only good thing. Terrorist I feel are some foreign interest funded is my feeling from some adjucent countries and I exclude Iran and China as these are brother countries. It can be work of A.Stan intelligence branch or some "RAW" dealing people.
I hope now forgivance is given to BB and NS and President for their corrouption and "tughi" things hope same things will be applied to MQM people who as wrongly subjected to fabricated charges. GOP should invite A.H. also from England to have level field to MQM.b No already PPP has started blaming MQM for some bad actions this is sad. As MQM allowed so she was able to land and her followeres allowed to gather. MQM wants to cooperaste with all for democracy other side they could have declared "karachi Decree" just stopped arrival of EX PM. Hope people understand geeriosity of MQM HQ. MQM is not recist as they quite dark than natives and oppressed by few supremists so oppressor can not be recist. MQM has muslims of indian origin from all languages but they use urdu for national integration. PLEASE MR.T do not try to blame MQM for recism in land.

Re: # 161

The first place for a 'moderate' muslim to begin healing the disease of mullah Islam is through acknowledge of the facts that hamidm talks about.
Muslims can become 'moderate' by using their wisdom but the mullah Islam can never and it has to be changed if 'moderate' muslims are to continue refering their identity to some 'Islam'.

hamidm: "dhimmis" were not slaves, nor even second class citizens for all practical purposes, in any of the vast muslim areas through the centuries.

tolkinin #157 "Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human."

Goals set a direction, a destination. One can say that to meet a goal is "beyond human" and discard the goal (as you seem to imply), or one can acknowledge that we humans are imperfect and stick to this goal. Thus, the US Constitution (where the preamble start with "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal") sets this goal quite explicitly. And 250 years ago when these words were written, the world - and the US - was even further away from this goal than today.
Since then, the US as a nation has moved ever closer to this goal (per my post below) through civil war, civil movements and legal action.

I agree with you that slavery did not start with Islam, and what I wrote earlier does not imply that it did by any means. What is true is that slavery lasted for centuries in muslim countries, and ended because of the efforts of abolitionists in the US and UK, and there was never any serious abolitionist movement within muslim countries. Indeed (as I mention below) there was strong opposition from the maulvis at the khalifa caving in to UK when he was pressured into ending slavery in the ottoman empire.

Re: # 158

tolkinin,

.... don't you think islam is the most racist ideology of all since it divides citizens into two distinct classes - muslims and dhimmis, where dhimmis can never have the same rights as the true believers ???? .........

Re: # 157
Rascism is rascism does not matter on what basis Dr.Watson bases it on Genetics ,Whites base it on colour Hindus base it on reincarnation resulting in tiers of Caste and Muslims base it on any or all of the other reasons.As Iqbal complained yun to syed bhi ho mirza bh Afghan bhi ....batao to ke musalman bhi ho.So there you have it Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human.

"and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. "
BTW Islam did not START slavery .It did make attempt stop it prophet did liberate first black slave to be so Hazrat Bilal much before your civil rights .Of course slavery continued from prior to Islam to after it just as gambling drunkedness fornication homosexuality prostitution so many despicable things among Slavery.If muslims continued to practice slavery just as the White masters importing blacks from Africa then Americans whites cannot claim be the first to abolish it b/c they had the most and worst of slavery .

#155 tolkinin: so you reject the central tenet of the caste system. congratulations. when the hundreds of millions of hindus who do believe in the caste system catch up with you, then you can start worrying about racism among muslims.

urstruly #147 you are factually incorrect in attributing the civil rights movement to the communist movement of the 20th century.

Hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers died fighting to end slavery in the US Civil War of 1860's - Even before the civil war, brave men like John Brown and his sons gave up their lives fighting to free the slaves. And John Brown inspired the Union soldiers ("John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on" was a popular rallying song in the civil war). Others made slavery an issue in non-violent ways that also had an impact (e.g. the anti-slavery convention in UK in the 1850s).

btw, not that it matters anymore given that you are above such minor issues - you make another self-contradictory statement in your post: While (incorrectly, as pointed out above) attempting to pass the credit for the end of slavery to the "proletariat revolution", you claim that " Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. ". In doing so, you forge that the communists were avowed atheists!! (but like I said, dont let little things like reason and facts trouble you).

and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. It was also legal in the ottoman empire (which spanned the middle east and turkey) until the Brits pressured them in the early 19th century to declare it illegal. Mullahs at that time loudly cried against this end of slavery as being kow-towing of the khalifa to the brits. But again, dont let this simple fact come in the way of your standing on a moral pedestal and declaring all non-mullahs as being without morality.

Re: # 154

and i dont believe in reincarnation to make some one DESERVE there servitude .

tolkinin #151 a hindu who believes in the caste system is the worst kind of racist - because he adds insult to injury by claiming that brahmins are superior because of their moral greatness in their previous incarnation.

masadi #149 You are lying when you write that People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim.

Re: # 151

Good points. And also undeniable. Now we have to ask us the question, whether this racism and bigotry is benefiting us or is it hurting us. Is the reason for the misery and indignity that we suffer everyday is that that we have forgotten what our Emancipator (pbuh) taught us. Mark these immortal words that constitute the manifest destiny for humanity:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves."

........Last Sermon of Holy Prophet (pbuh)

Masadi, Ahmedmadani, Aslam, UrsTruly ..Dont say there is no rAscism among Pakistanis or Arab countries .
You are all staunch muslims & muslims are the worst rascist.Pathans vs Punjabis Mohajirs Vs Sindhi West Pakistani Vs east Pakistani (now BDEsh)
practice what you preach .The glamorous world of Pak T.V & movie Personalities despite making living of Pakistani ,and just like WASP or Brahmins consider you all inferior just ask Meera & Veenezas of Pakistan

Speaking of impotent rage, I would suggest that you pick up any book on civil rights movement by any white author and it will tell you the infiltration of communists into the ranks of both Dr. king and Malik Shahbaz. See how they interpret the consequences of bus boycott.

tahmed writes "After 1964, it has taken just one generation for blacks to become part of the mainstream (perhaps even less time than the italians etc. of the 19th century) "

Blacks have not become part of the mainstream. When you have a group that has double the poverty level, unemployment level, and still shows very high level of segregation indices with most so called "middle class" blacks living on the periphery of the ghetto with equal access still not allowed to them even in housing let alone managerial or high level jobs (one name here or there wont do, just like Obama and Colin Powell the most "white" among the "blacks" in places of power wont do). These numbers are those that are given by the US government itself and except for some peons of the West from Pakistan nobody not even the establishment denies that racism exists in the US. Regarding group and institutional racism, that does not exist in a vaccum, it is processed and gets translated into personal racism and just because those at the top do not explicity show it does not mean they do not espouse it, those destroying countries are those at the top not the trailer trash who shows Arjun like hate which harms very few even though it is distasteful. Why tahmed would like to mask it by throwing out the Irish who were assimilated into mainstream US society because of skin color and not any "history" as he would like you to believe (that is the difference between the petty jealousies of asian the "imitation racism" that these fools refer to and the real racism of the West, based on skin color unforseen in evil consequence in the history of the world, need I remind you of the Atlantic Slave Trade and the genocide of the native Americans?).

People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior", being a rank racist- he thinks they civilized us, and he supported the Iraq war and will now most probably cheerlead for the Iran war once it starts, is it any wonder that he is denying racism existing in the US when there is unanimous agreement among social scientists (except ass wipes like Danish Desouza- who explains away race based on class when CLASS is caused by race and not vice versa), as well as establishment experts except for the O'reilly and Fox News types...

And by the way when Hamid says "if you want to be treated like a white man start acting like one", is true in the US and this by itself proves the existance of racism and racial exclusivity. If you want to be treated with human dignity try imitating the only race considered "human" in the US so you might brush off some of their humanity, otherwise the Pigs (police) will butcher you like dogs and they do on a daily basis...

Re: # 147

urstruly,

....like a true muslim you are so full of impotent rage at being left behind in every field of human endevour, that you choose to blame the west for your miseries ...... this is the type of thinking that makes you the 'nigger' ...... if you want to be treated like a 'white' man, start acting like one .... stop sulking and take responsibility for your failures ...... and stop accepting government cheese - it will help your self esteem ...

The acceptance of blacks as "equal humans" at least at its face value is a blessing of Proletariat movements of last century that originated in Russia and spread across the world like wildfire. The by product or unintended consequences of those movements, which had great appeal among the oppressed around the globe, was the inevitable abolition of aparthied across the western world. The "preservation of market economy" argument to support the equal rights is vehemently put forward to this day. Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. Making "economic sense" and hence 'self preservation" are the only reason that something is done. The Western Capitalist world is working over time now to convert Muslims into the new niggers because now that is what making more "economic sense".

aslam: granted that the blacks were segregated long after the irish, italians, poles, germans etc. were accepted as full human beings. this was the result of historical circumstances (slavery, followed by segregationist "jim crow" state and local laws - and then chipped away with federal action starting with the emancipation proclamation, continuing with desegregation in the military followed by the 1964 civil rights act). After 1964, it has taken just one generation for blacks to become part of the mainstream (perhaps even less time than the italians etc. of the 19th century) - from "black power" of the 1960's to blacks as mainstream: Black politicians seeking to gain office by playing the "black card" of victimization are history, and mainstream politicians who happen to be black (e.g. Obama, Fenty) now play the same field (i.e. international issues, personal charisma) as white politicians.

Similarly, black voters in the US have moved away from voting on the basis of ethnicity - more black voters support Hillary Clinton than anyone else.

So - while many Pakistanis think that the US is still in the 1950's in terms of the status of blacks, in fact the picture has vastly changed and keeps changing rapidly.

Re: # 144
#144 Posted by ferozk

I am afraid don’t remember that dialogue but on the whole I liked the movie.

regards

re: aslam644 # 142

Do you remember the dialogue between Matt Damon's character and the Russian in a Berlin church in post-war Germany?

Ciao

Re: # 127

Aslam you are quoting AFRICAN as being same as Black Americans.Black American or African American has been here for hundreds of years but only in the last century as late as 60s never had ENVIROMENTAL change to compete as by affirmative Action.
Since then genetic diffeences both good and bad have been diluted or neutralised .Look at the land mark achievement in education of Black american that
even the descendent of White Moghuls rulers of Pakistan stand up like sheep when Condi Rice shows up as Head Mistress.Not to speak of All white Arabs




Land marks of Black Americans Educational Achievements




1837
Institute for Colored Youth founded by Richard Humphreys; later became Cheyney University.
1854
Ashmun Institute, the first school of higher learning for young black men, founded by John Miller Dickey and his wife, Sarah Emlen Cresson; later (1866) renamed Lincoln University (Pa.) after President Abraham Lincoln.
1856
Wilberforce University, the first black school of higher learning owned and operated by African Americans, founded by the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Its president, Daniel A. Payne, became the first African American Uniiversity president in the country.
1869
Howard University's law school becomes the country's first black law school.
1876
Meharry Medical College, the first black medical school in the U.S., founded by the Freedman's Aid Society of the Methodist Episcopal Church.
1881
Spelman College, the first college for black women in the U.S., founded by Sophia B. Packard and Harriet E. Giles.
1881
Booker T. Washington founds the Tuskegee Normal and Industrial Institute in Alabama. The school became one of the leading schools of higher learning for African Americans, and stressed the practical application of knowledge. In 1896, George Washington Carver began teaching there as director of the department of agricultural research, gaining an international reputation for his agricultural advances.
1922
William Leo Hansberry teaches the first course in African civilization at an American university, at Howard University.
1944
Frederick Douglass Patterson establishes the United Negro College Fund to help support black colleges and black students.
1954
In the landmark case Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kans., the Supreme Court rules unanimously that segregation in public schools in unconstitutional.
1957
President Dwight D. Eisenhower sends federal troops to ensure integration of the all-white Central High School in Little Rock, Ark. The Little Rock Nine were the first black students to attend the school.
1960
Black and white students form the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), dedicated to working against segregation and discrimination.
1962
James Meredith is the first black student to enroll at the University of Mississippi; on the day he enters the university, he is escorted by U.S. marshals.
1963
Despite Governor George Wallace physically blocking their way, Vivian Malone and James Hood register for classes at the University of Alabama.
1968
San Francisco State University becomes the first four-year college to establish a black studies department.
1969
The Ford Foundation gives $1 million to Morgan State University, Howard University, and Yale University to help prepare faculty members to teach courses in African American studies.
2003
In Grutter v. Bollinger, the Supreme Court (5-4) upholds the University of Michigan Law School's affirmative action policy, ruling that race can be one of many factors considered by colleges when selecting their students because it furthers “a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body.�

Re: # 136
tahmed
Prejudice between different groups of same race is of a totally different nature, than prejudice against people of colour.

As we have seen in the USA within couple of generations Italians, jews, irish etc have assimilated into the WASP mainstream, the blacks haven’t even though they have been there for generations.

Recently I watched a movie “ THE GOOD SHEPHERD “

Here is a dialogue from it at one time the WASPS thought they owned the USA.

between a Mafia don and an impeccably WASPish CIA operative. “We Italians, we have the church and our family. The Irish have their homeland. The Jews have their traditions. Even the niggers, they've got their music. What do you people have?�
The CIA man replies, with all of the force of Yale and its most revered secret society, Skull and Bones. “The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.�

#138 Posted by hamidm2 on October 18, 2007 7:31:39 am

..racism is driven by exactly the same instinct as nationalism - a desire by people with small penises to feel big...

Hamid,

The length of penis is not an indicator of superiority. If that were the case then donkeys had bigger willies. That doesnt make donkies superior to Pakistanis.

As per God's assessment, the length complements the depth of the conjugal partner(s).

Re: # 137
For what ever reason nationalism is come to be accepted as term ...National (BNP)party .When nationalism interacts with another and HURTS it. it is rascism.Thats why rascism is Bad nationalism is o.k.

#121
Jai shiv Shankar
There two things never say 'never' and 'ALL'.
You may say insignificant % from your point of advantage being physician
But for even the few % it is 100%:)

Re: # 137

GT,

racism is driven by exactly the same instinct as nationalism - a desire by people with small penises to feel big (in more ways than one) ...... it is an instinct that can be exploited by people with even smaller penises to fulfill their lust for power - these people are known as 'leaders' ........ it is the same instinct that makes a puny 125 pound math majhor root for 'his' football team surrounded by frat boys who normally wouldn't give him the time of the day ...

....nationalism and racism is also driven by the desire to eat more meat than the other guy (or dal in the case of hindoos) ...... you can see this behaviour in the hyenas and wolves that hunt in packs in the wild, and the packs of stray dogs that roam the streets at night .......

....personally, i think a small penis is the root cause of both racism and nationalism ...

Racism and nationalism, how are they fundamentaly different?

HP: I agree with Hamidm. There was a study released last year about how the human mind can distinguish individuals belonging to his own group much more easily than those of another group (and thus the "all chinese look alike to me" phenomenon) - we have millions of years of the "herd instinct" that underlies our identification with any group.

Also, I think you are being factually incorrect in saying that there was no resistance to immigration of people now considered "whites" - In the 19th century, there was strong resentment against immigration by Italians, germans, irish and anti-immigrant sentiments were, if anything, stronger than today. It is also incorrect to say that resistance to immigration is based on "race" alone - West Germans viewed with suspicion the influx of East Germans (when visiting Germany back then, the German I was walking down the street with pointed to a sad looking Trabbi (east german automobile) and spoke of the fears of East German hordes coming over to the west.

In the US, given the vast mix of humanity, in fact racial identification is in many ways far less than in any other country I have visited. This is contrary to the party line of the armchair theorists to be found in Pakistan.

#131 Mr. Madani: I dont see how you (who, sitting in Karachi where mqm is based, and supporting a dictator on account of his ethnicity) can point fingers towards others at being racist. Ethnic politics are merely another form of racism.

Re: # 130

hp,

.... i agree with you that even thought there is very little racism at the individual level - except in the trailer parks where masadi spent his time in america - it does exist at the group and institutional level ..... i ascribe it to the innate tribal/mob instinct which brings out the worst in a person ..... it is the same instinct that cause footabll fans to go on a rampage in europe, sunnis to kill shia neighbors in iraq, hindoos to kill muslim neighbors in india, and the ummah to go on the warpath against infidels the world over .......

Re: # 131
Mr madni

Call it what you will, inferiority complex, or just desi mens obsession with blondes, many moons ago me and my cousin Nasser were coming home from work, on our way we saw two blondes heading into town for a night out, so I said to Nasser you know we’ve not had some of that, Nasser replied, it’s our parents they are strict they wouldn’t allow it. There must be a way, we could leave and live in another town, i said. We decided we’d go and live in chester since it has hardly any Asians there, so off to chester we went , we both managed to find work in a plywood factory, come weekend we hit the downtown for the elusive blondes, no luck even after three months of trying, they wouldn’t even give us the time of day.


I gave up trying and would spend weekend evenings in front of tv, but Nasser never gave up, one night lo and behold Nasser walked in with a blonde old enough to be his granny and the size of an elephant, talk about grab a granny, any how the morning after the night before, I asked him how was it like, his reply it was different

Listen to HP and ahmedmadani both have spoken very wisely and do not be misled by the "imitation racism" of the coloreds trying to imitate their white masters by considering others inferior to them- there is a qualitative difference in both...

Re: # 130
Mr. Masadi has correctly said there is racism in usa. I can read from newspapres and readers letters in pakistan.
It is White Supremacy which is too ingrained in white mind to change. This racism kills blacks and dark people of usa and they insult them every day and blacks die every day little inside their mind. This has resulted in great deatjths in black race people. On an average black people die early about 7 years than white counter part. So all americans pay money from salary for govt pension and blacks cheated most as Black man dies 7 years earlier than white so his pension fund is used by white people. If I am black in USA i will start black movemrnt to start preretirement pension ( before retiring for 7 yearsfor dark skinned people with african blood to have equitable retirement. This is biggest race hatred to treat equal when black man is dieing early for 7 years.
Also black people you are not treated equally medically resulting obesity, diabeis, depression, high blood pressue as doctors are not giving proper medicine or advice. White racist doctors instead of advicing blacks to make exercise or eat less, vegetable, avoiding read meat advices blacks to eat just two fatty sandwitches and couteract drink large sodas full of sugar are killing them . And doctors want black sick so they can "treat" and make more money. Also american industry produce 4000 calories per man so aetra calaries they make are forced on black on and subsidide food for black people so money goes to drinks damaging health.
Also white man discards fat women from that group and blacks and are forced to marry them. They are so inslaved for long time they feel even just white chamadi is great so they happily marry such women and that leads adding more fats in incoming generation. White man has enslaved all world with color supremacy that they have brain washed all black and browed skinned people. So brown and dark person marries even buffollow if buffollow is white cream colored.
Before in Des land ther was all types of color but people were color blind and white women in des use to marry any colored people. But after britsh came india all obsession with white color started. Old times before english came people use to like brown beautiful skin than colorless white skin. No people are skinning themselves hoping to get white color its british reacism started all foundation, complexion etc. In old times dark skin was just fine. Now old times people wanted white child and fairer skin was valued as actors and actress but there was no racism just discretion for white skin but no racism. Now racism is deep inside our people that can not go. Like des man will marry happily christian anglo overweight and no eduvcated woman but will run away from black women who is even doctor or muslim also. Everybody knows all even kafir gods were dark, or even Profet ( PBuh) and Jesus both were african race and dark as rats . People should read honorable black american seperatist leader Honarable Eliha Mohammad. It is generaly observed dark colored may look nor so goos but at heart minds blacks to superior to white people. ( hum hay kale fir bhi Dilwale). Problem is institioned racism started by westen elites and now spread to des elites. Mr. Rajiv and imran are both victicms of that syndrome. If both had married say both doctors from africa people would have hated just for color. This disease stared by white western elites has broken good relations between dark and semi dark people of desh and racism is counsuming south asia.
Any way discard color preference.
good day

On individual or on personal level you rarely find whites in the US, racist. Those who are racists, are not part of the same class that people on this site belong. Often some of us base our judgment on individual experiences and that is not good enough to refute what Asadi is saying.

There are plenty of instances of racism in politics and there are plenty of evidence of Whites putting down other cultures because those cultures are alien to them or/and non white. This is different than asian or Indian racism.

The Iraq war and what happened there and in Afghanistan clearly show deep rooted racism in the white US society.

The brouhaha on immigration is clearly based on racism. Go read any right wing blog and every discussion about immigration. In the end, it is about the race and not about the issues that come with uncontrolled immigration.

Here is an example of what i was talking about http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/indvaus/content/current/story/315911.html

When it comes to racism Asians (from middle east to Japan) are no less racist than the White/European Americans. We all know how the people from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Philippines are treated in middle east. Most Desi's address African Americans as Kallus and in other derogatory terms. Chinese and Japanese are also no less when it comes to their treatment of people of other colors and nationalities.

Most Desi's have different standards for racism, and expect better behavior from the white folks than from themselves.

I am afraid masadi might have a point if one of the great scientist thinks thinks blacks are inferior, it begs the question what about ordinary whites.

One of the world’s most respected scientists is embroiled in an extraordinary row after claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, has provoked outrage with his comments, made ahead of his arrival in Britain today.
More fierce criticism of the eminent scientist is expected as he embarks on a number of engagements to promote a new book ‘Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science’. Among his first commitments is a speech to a London audience at the Science Museum on Friday. The event is sold out.
Dr Watson, who runs one of America’s leading scientific research institutions, made the controversial remarks in an interview in The Sunday Times.
The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa� because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true�.
He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level�. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so�.
He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.
The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission is studying Dr Watson’s remarks “in full�.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said today: “It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments.
“I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson’s personal prejudices. These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional levels.�
Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2677098.ece?token=null&off set=0
He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.

Re: # 118

Massaddi Mian:

"masadi: The white man considers people of color inferior..."

Just as you make such racist comments out of your ignorance, many people of other races have prejudices - including racism - based on their ignorance.

You show your extreme intolerance to others view points. Such intolerance leads even more complex personality, which rarely can succeed.

masadi: listen to shankar. he is a psychiatrist. and his prescription for you is: So,once in a while when you fart, try blaming someone other than the US for giving you gas. (Do this three times a day, once after each meal).

Now - turks are mobilizing to attack the kurds... aren't they all muslims?... what the eff*** is wrong with these people?... it's driving oil prices crazy...

You know - the only solution I think will work is to sedate these people en-masse. May be we can build a bunch of MOABs and daisy-cutters filled with valium and blast them all over bedouin lands every 3 months... that should cool down these freaks and oil prices... :)

#122 Posted by masadi on October 17, 2007 11:09:30 am


Arjun #120 shut up with your nonsense generalizations


You generalize all white people as racist and you're saying I'm bad for generalizing?

tahmed writes "...and only dud like you concerns himself with what he thinks other people think of the color of his skin..."

When those "other people" are determining life and death matters over the vast majority of humanity and defining global worth based upon which life chances are handed out you bet your hairy behind, I'll concern myself with it...

Shankar writes "in the 26 yrs of living in the us, i have never personally experienced discrimination here.."

Of course you don't because even if the white man kills your nation or sh*** on you, you'll bless him and think its rose perfume, that's the nature of an enslaved mind. All social aggregate indicators suggest a US rife with institutional racism as a result of which all surveys that measure personal racism show a high degree of it as well.., the white man's prejudice messed up the world the petty jealousies of Asian on Asian, even though deplorable have had no similar global consequence.

Arjun #120 shut up with your nonsense generalizations, my post has nothing to do with myself being discriminated against it is about all people of color and how the white man treats them as fact even though the diplomacy and fakery surrounding that treatment is all fun fun and joy joy...

mr masadi,
in the 26 yrs of living in the us, i have never personally experienced discrimination here. My 22 yr old daughter has never experiened discrimination throughout her life (& she was the only brown kid in a 98% white school.

I would argue I have experienced much more discrimination in India.

Prejudice is a human vice, not confined to the US. I will argue there is more virulent prejudice among Asians in Asia.

So,once in a while when you fart, try blaming someone other than the US for giving you gas.

#116 Posted by masadi on October 17, 2007 8:19:35 am

funny how pakis, who can never shut up about how their perceived fairness makes them superior, whine about being discriminated against.

Re: # 115

GT,

.... as long as you show the proper respect which this title deserves - otherwise no eidee for you either ...

masadi: The white man considers people of color inferior

...and only dud like you concerns himself with what he thinks other people think of the color of his skin...

GT writes "Do you mind if I borrow this term? "

Be my guest...

In addition to #113, by the way, immigration policies in the US have always been anti people of color, and the vast majority of the white folk are anti-immigrant and the picture that comes to their minds when you talk of immigrant is of a person of color not the white Europeans. These are from well documented studies on immigration not only to the US but from data from European countries as well, the behavior of the immigrant who has "made it" to those lands has nothing to do with the difficulty of obtaining a visa, this was just a misplaced excuse by tahmed to hide the racist policies of the Western elite...

#114 Posted by masadi,

"Uncle,...."

Do you mind if I borrow this term?

hamid writes "....what the heck, we will even throw in masadi .... it will be a net gain for pakistan "

Uncle, what do you think I am, one of those crisp Rs 5000 bills you hand out on Eid but somehow managed to bypass me?

tahmed writes "Only a total duffer like you would think that I have a problem with the color of my skin."

Only a total duffer like you would conclude after reading my post that it was about YOU caring about the color of your skin. The white man considers people of color inferior, regardless of trying to get a tan, and by the way, even with the darkest tan he will still consider himself/herself whiter than you

then he writes "And your trademark personal insults cannot hide the weakness of your argument."

There were no personal insults except the obvious statement of you being a peon of the West- a badge you wear with honor defacto- but now hide behind the "insult" excuse because you cannot answer the argument; regarding my argument, it is anything but weak, this ghetto we call Pakistan as well as the Harlem ghetto is maintained by the policies of the elite in the West, our country is sovereign in name only- that is the fact and it is no weak argument, the other fact is that those elite consider the entire world their playing field and is the case within their country they have relegated people of color to ghettos- in fact Pakistan is even more subservient to the US elite than many of the internal states of the US, defacto when you live in Pakistan you are actually living in a US dominated banana republic, in other words defacto part of the US both politically and economically... and life (even though that was not my argument and only total duffers and deceivers like you can conclude thus) in the US viz-a-viz Pakistan is quite similar depending on the socioeconomic class of the person, for the deprived, most of which happen to be people of color in the US, it is equally miserable...

Gill Sahib,

In answer to your question, an observation from several

years ago still remains valid:

"What is the alternative?"

Ras

arjun: You seem to have trouble understanding plain english - I referred to you as a "muslim hater", which is based on your years of service on chowk, and you understand that to mean that you are a "hateful" person.

hamidm is willing to trade masadi and romair for you, and thus is obviously a lousy dealer. I wouldnt offer one wild monkey hopping on trees in Margalla Hills in exchange for a specimen like you.

Re: # 108

arjun,

.... if it is any consolation, i will trade romair for you any day ....... what the heck, we will even throw in masadi .... it will be a net gain for pakistan

masadi: i am not insulted by your calling me "people of color". I am in fact very pleased with the color of my skin. White guys try desperately to match this color, spending long hours under the sun, risking their lives with skin cancer, paying exorbitant sums for tanning salons. All for a few short days of the privilege to match my skin color.

Only a total duffer like you would think that I have a problem with the color of my skin.

As for Pindi, Islamabad being just like the US...this is only part in your post where you have tried to argue the substance of what I wrote in #106. And your trademark personal insults cannot hide the weakness of your argument. )nly a rare dud like you would put forward the n argument that immigration restrictions are not a problem for millions of youth in Pakistan because life in Pindi, Islamabad are just like the US!!

#97 Posted by tahmed32 on October 17, 2007 1:50:38 am


Only muslim-haters (read arjuns posts gloating about the low popularity of the US in Pakistan)


yes prophetboy...pointing out that osama is popular in pureland makes me hateful...the 40%+ pakis who have a favorable opinion of osama? they're just victims of my postings on chowk.com.

in #106 read "You are very much living in the USA when you live in Lahore or Karachi or Islamabad, just not in the backwater ghetto areas that are reserved by them for your kind i.e. people of color. "

as
You are very much living in the USA when you live in Lahore or Karachi or Islamabad, just that you are in the backwater ghetto areas that are reserved by them for your kind i.e. people of color.

tahmed writes "it is the millions of muslims not as fortunate as you in getting a visa to the west who are paying the cost of your above-mentioned luxury. "

For this peon of the West a quick ticket to his "heaven" is all what the Muslims should seek. The "cost" to us of this "heaven" is the state of our countries, for the ghetto as well as the underdeveloped countries where people live in misery and where they are trapped due to all kinds of bureaucratic restrictions from travelling God's earth is the gift of Western Civilization to the rest of the World. They are the authors of the conditions that we face by their policies today and their (colonization) policies of the past.

Do not think that if you're living in Pakistan, you are not living in the USA. You are very much living in the USA when you live in Lahore or Karachi or Islamabad, just not in the backwater ghetto areas that are reserved by them for your kind i.e. people of color. The visa wont save you either, look at the condition of the internally colonized and the neighbourhoods they live in, smell the smell of the ghetto and it will be like sweet home Pakistan...The whole world is the playing field of the US elite, racially segregated with continent wide prisons, and Pakistan is part of it...

Aslam,

Re: #103

As of now, maybe not. But in future???

Regards

#103 by aslam644

as far as i am aware there are no laws in europe which discriminate in favour of non-muslim countries, thousands of iraqis are getting asylum, 80,000 in sweden alone.

If push comes to shove, countries will set aside such niceties as laws and do what they want to.

Re: # 102
as far as i am aware there are no laws in europe which discriminate in favour of non-muslim countries, thousands of iraqis are getting asylum, 80,000 in sweden alone.

Aslam,

Re: 101

The Western world does need the labour and talent of third world countries desperately. But as Tahmed sahib rightly points out the attitude of some Muslim immigrants means that these countries would tend to favour import of surplus labour from non-Muslim countries like India and China than from Muslims countries like Pakistan.

Regards

Re: # 97
I agree with you that Pakistani immigrants in Europe are viewed with suspicion because of the actions of few muslims, before 9/11 pakistani-panjabis were flooding into Europe both legally and illegally in spain and italy mini Pakistans were being created quite a few have established thriving businesses. Compared to northern Europe southern Europe is paradise in terms of weather. Let us hope this is only a temporary problem and immigration proceeds as before because this has the potential to transform Punjab. I have witnessed with my own eyes some villages in jhelum where quite a few young men have gone to Europe for work, there is construction boom in these villages with new houses and small businesses being built.

The muslim scholars instead of writing to the pope should have written to teh fellow muslims of pakistan that blowing up barber shops are un-islamic. No ...no...they could not have done that, there is a specific verse in the book that says that all muslims should grow beard and as such blowing up barber shops is a jihadic act.

Tailoring shops, music centres blown up



Dawn Report


GHALANAI, Oct 16: At least five shops — two videos and CDs centres, two tailoring shops and one hair cutting salon — were destroyed and about a dozen others damaged in an explosion that occurred in the wee hours of Monday in the Mian Mandi Bazaar.

Local people said the bomb explosion in Khwajawas Market spread panic in the area.

On Tuesday, hairdressers displayed large banners outside their shops in the area stating that they had stopped shaving beards. The banners stated that the hairdressers would only cut hair in accordance with the religious code.

The local militants have been patrolling different areas.

A group of militants also patrolled some roads in the settled areas adjacent to the Mohmand Agency, including Pir Qala.

#98 majumdar: "why should we act spoilsports?"

because this luxury is cost-free only to urstruly (as explained in my post).

Tahmed sahib,

(So, the only logical conclusion is that you want to have the luxury of following the mullah fashion of berating the US and western civilization generally, while at the same time enjoying the fruits of western civilization.)

If Maulana Urstruly (pbuh) and his likes want to enjoy the fruits of paradise both in this world and hereafter why should we act spoilsports?

Regards

Urstruly: No one is arguing below against your right to speak your mind. All I am saying for example is that your actions contradict what you say. I have been pointing this out to you for years, and you have been simply ignoring this question.

If your actions were to match your words, you would have moved to neighboring Afghanistan when it was under the Taliban (whose de facto policies matched quite well what you keep favoring on chowk) to raise your family - and not come thousands of miles to the US instead. So, the only logical conclusion is that you want to have the luxury of following the mullah fashion of berating the US and western civilization generally, while at the same time enjoying the fruits of western civilization.

Only muslim-haters (read arjuns posts gloating about the low popularity of the US in Pakistan) and only the ignorant fools among muslims applaud this ego-satisfying "confrontation" with the west the maulvis engage in - since (as I pointed out to GT below), it is the millions of muslims not as fortunate as you in getting a visa to the west who are paying the cost of your above-mentioned luxury.

The truth is that mullah fazloo - who was at the forefront of US flag burning in Pakistan after the US invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11, which was prominently shown on US TVs - has made clear he is fighting for no principal higher than that of furthering is personal political ambitions like any other two-taka politician. And the truth is that it is because of such actions that Pakistanis find it much harder to get jobs and visas to the west today than Indians e.g. I hope someday, for the sake of the millions of muslims who suffer the consequences of this bogus "confrontation" with the west, if not "merely" for the sake of being fair and honest, you will give this matter some thought.

An Appeal to Hamidm2 and Urstruly and others!

Since you are all reasonable and learned Gentlefolk. So here is an appeal.

Urstruly(and religious & conservative folk) do whatever Hamidm2 suggests - drink, womenise, go to lap and pole dancing clubs. I.E enjoy life according to Hamidm2

Hamidm2 and others (non-religious debauched folk) do whatever urstruly suggests - bang heads,bend over, whatever in addition to Praying to God, reading the Koran.Life accoding to Urstruly

In other words see what the other perceives to be the DARK SIDE

While you guys are at it (like rabbits or otherwise), me GT, and a few other will open the books and start taking bets!

Its a win win all roound. What say you!

Re: # 93

"as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ....... “


There is going to be one in Jannah- with lots of intoxicating and refreshing drinks and a lot of houries and young boys as per your preference.

And the benefit is that none of the gals there mensturate- thereby implying that they are available 24X7 times a day for your pleasure.

How can you resist that offer from Allah and ask for subscription to a pay channel for which you have to work as slave to the capitalist west.??

Re: # 85 but within their definitions if there was an overlap, then there would be, perhaps a meeting point, a point from which a new discourse could start.

If there is not overlap - binary- you have a problem.

Re: hamdim2 # 92

“as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ....... “

and all he wants to do is run your life for you....


sounds like a marriage made in heaven!

Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 90

arjun,

.... are you saying urstruly is some guy named mohammed?..... i think that urstruly does not really exist - he is a character invented by the horrible hindoos and the zionists to discredit muslims in general, and pakis in particular .... unfortunately, tahmed is our best response to this horrible caricature .....

Re: # 89

urstruly,

.... you can blaspheme the US as long as you don't collect welfare, ssi, medicaid, student loans or live in state subsidized housing ... just as i can blaspheme the prophet and his camel (pbu them) because i don't want anything from them ...... if i started praying to them and started asking for 70 virgins and whatnot, then i would be totally out of line ... wouldn't i ?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I apologize for blaspheming US and if it has hurt anyone's feeling, but aren't you the two testicles who defend people's right to blaspheme anyone or anything all the time. What gives?

Re: # 85

GT,

.... look there is a fundamental difference between me and urstruly: i am willing to let him bang his head on the floor ten times a day, not drink if he doesn't want to, grow a beard, go to bed with four women and a sheep, return his interest payments to the bank and practice all the silliness of his religion as long as i can have a drink when i want to ......... that's all i want in addition to free markets, democracy and the playboy channel ......... i don't want to kill him or convert him or anything of the sort ........

....... on top of that, i am not willing to die for my cause either - i will move to china and join the communist party if i think that the forces of al-lah are going to overrun the land of the free ........ i am not that brave ..... shit! worse come to worse i will even convert back to islam ... unlike urstruly, i love life .... of course, if other people are willing to die for my cause i will write them a check like i do every april 15th ..........

GT: and to add to #86, I should say cheers, my friend. No personal offense intended or taken, and appreciate your making the effort to make that clear. We dont have to agree on everything, nor will the earth stop spinning or galaxies start colliding as a result. ;-)

GT: Thanks for taking the time to explain (not that you owe me any explanations, of course) your views, since it does clarify what you meant.

On the question of urstruly's honesty, we obviously will have to agree to disagree. He is no doubt honest about "seeking peace at his own terms". But he is not honest when you look at what these terms are (i.e. rejection of the US or western way of life) and contrast them with his actions (i.e. leaving a muslim country not for another supposedly more pious muslim country, but for the green pastures of the US).

Dear tahmed:

I also believe that "hamidm2 etc. can only accept peace on their own terms and they are honest about it (at least as far as chowk is concerned)." The problem is not with the honesty of hamidm2 and Urstruly, actually one should be thankful that both of them are honest. From their interacts we come to know that what is "good" for one is "bad" for the other. The 'problem' is that both of them are ready to "defend" what they think is "good". And oh! ... what is "defence" for one is "offence" for the other.

Dear tahmed,

I had said "Urstruly etc. can only accept peace under their own terms and they are honest about it (at least as far as chowk is concerned)". I really do not understand what is wrong or right about this statement.

You also say "...GT (regardless of intentions) is certainly not doing muslims any favor". Sir, frankly speaking I do not want to do a favor to anyone, especially to those who do not need a favor from me.

If I am being offensive, or if there is a misunderstanding, please do let me know why and I will try to correct or clarify my position if needed.

Warm regards.

GT: I am sorry that you chose to avoid my question. But I hope you will reflect on it before you start applauding those who claim to speak on behalf of "muslims" when in fact they have cost muslims plenty in real terms (one example given in my post #82).

And, btw, I never questioned urstruly's right to say one thing and do another, so your referring to this right was unnecessary. What I questioned was your referring to urstruly as being "honest" (and by implication, hamidm as being dishonest), when in fact simple logic would indicate that the opposite is true (as I tried to explain to you).

hamidm: I dont wish to speculate on anyone's intentions, and certainly Urstruly, GT, Dash_Dot and yourself are all gentlemen in the sense that they dont use the anonymity of the internet to start abusing anyone who questions or disagrees with them. And I wont speculate on GT's intentions for avoiding my simple question, even though I find the respon.

Having said that, it is obvious that this absurd policy of demonizing the US while setting up the worlds 1 billion plus muslims as victims has cost muslims dearly in many ways. While Urstruly may be comfortably making a living and getting the benefits of living in society that respects his rights, millions of muslims who would give anything to be in their place are denied visas in EU and the US. So, by encouraging Urstruly by making the absurd claim that he is "honest", GT (regardless of intentions) is certainly not doing muslims any favor.

good and bad are relative if we have different notions of humanity (as you conceded in an earlier post). When it is relative, it is the degree of over lap you have which results in the starting point of counting the grains of sand to figure out the dune.

If there is no such understanding we will be arguing over what is a grain of sand! Forget the dune - it doesnot exist as a sand dune till we agree on the sand thing.

My earlier post (#76) was against the binary 0/1 logic. This binary logic is more inscribing rather than circumscribing -

got to go and hit the sack - the good old water of life is over and need some more to think what you said through and make myself sound more erudite than I really am!

Dear Dash_Dot,

My post to you (#79) may sound a bit fuzzy. So let me give you a concrete example.

When you see a sand dune, you know it is a sand dune. You can differentiate between what is a sand dune and what is not a sand dune. Now try the following thought experiment. (1) You get a truck-load of sand. (2) pick one grain from the truck and put it on your porch. (3) Keep repeating the process counting the number of grains. (5) What is the number of that grain before which you did not have a dune but after which you have a dune?

Do you see a small proble with binary logic now?

#77 Posted by Dash_Dot:

Sir/Madam,

I shall not single out urstruly sahib or George Bush. It has to do with our intellect. Classical logical systems are binary in nature: "good / bad", "right / wrong" etc. Even Einstein could not accept a different system.

Different systems of logic are being used in natural sciences (I am told with better results), it lies on the frontier of research in economics today, poets and painters perhaps always used it. Such systems of logic will take generations to percolate down to common people like me. And by that time we may all be happily dead :)

Please do not take any of the above seriously.

Re: # 74

tahmed,

you ask GT: " Why have you chosen to encourage Urstruly by referring to his bad mouthing of the US using an anonymous nic as being honest? "

.... it is obvious, isn't it?

#75 humanity - might mean different things to different groups of people. But if there is a "circumscribing" of the definitions there will be an intersection of ideas and views (overlapping) from where progress can be made.
The absolutist positions taken as a result of the a lack overlapping is the issue. ONe group wants the total annihilation of the other group. In such an eventuality no group can afford to let their guard down - that is why you have the current situation. One group let its guard down for too long and got it in the neck - and this group has removed its gloves and gone for the daisy cutter option!

GT you have hit upon the problem (or rather stumbled onto it or rather still stated it) by the use of two words "good" & "bad". In the world of urstruly's everything he holds dear is good and all else is bad. (I respect urstruly a nice person and a remarkably honest as far as his "little world" goes (perhaps dishonest in the sense TAhmed32 states below - but that is not the issue here).

The point about "good" and "bad" is about how closed your mind is to rationale and reason. If "good" and "bad" are closed definitions, and compact (and completely inscribed (note not circumscribed)) within the a fixed framework you end up with the near fascist harangue of the Urstruly kind you have seen below. There is redemption is there is circumscribing (using the geometric analogy - you have room to wriggle).

When you are faced with the new, and want reassurance that the world is still flat you reach for the "inscribing" option. That is from where all their "you kafir" "your murtid" "you munaafiq" and other torrents of bouquets come from.

It is often the case that when people follow an inscribing approach to life they end up in a cul de sac from which there is often no reprieve (by no reprieve i mean - no progress of thought/intellect and development of potential). This is something the ancient greek understood reasonably well, and the modern atheist Christians and jews and hindus and buddhists understand very well (the very same people Urstruly reserves the most vitriol for). That is why they will leave behind the inscribing zealots (of whatever hue).

That is why these guys who wrote that letter are oafs and the people who reply, if at all they do, do so only out of politeness for the effort these guys have gone through in putting this epistle together. For this epistle is meaningless, and in fact does not take forward human thought - there is really no contribution and or anything new in there. It is same old same old.


This is precisely the reason why I asked Gill in #2 whether he thought it was really a clash of civilisations or not? For this is not a clash of civilisations - for this to happen you need two similarly matched sets of human thought to meet. that aint happening here.

#74 Posted by tahmed32:

tahmed sahib, Gill sahib and others:

Let us not get bogged down with what I have to say about urstruly. Though, let me remind you that US citizens have a right to criticize their country and their structure of governance. Let me instead put forth a disturbing proposition.

The problem put forth by Einstein etc. is well understood. If "humanity" means the same thing to every group then recourse to just "humanity" is the solution. I believe that "humanity" does not mean the same thing to all groups. Hence, recourse to "humanity" MAY not be the solution.

correction to #73: the question to GT in the last para. should have been " Why have you chosen to encourage Urstruly by referring to his bad mouthing of the US using an anonymous nic as being honest? "

GT #61 you write Urstruly etc. can only accept peace under their own terms and they are honest about it

While the logic-challenged can be excused for making such a an odd statement, you sir are not logic-challenged and so cannot be excused on that count.

What is "honest" about talking about armaggedon between the US and the muslim world using an anonymous nic? Between Hamidm and Urstruly, common sense would say that it is Hamidm who is being honest, and Urstruly who is the fake. I say this for the following reason:

Both Hamidm and Urstruly chose to leave Pakistan and come and live in the US, work and raise their families here. Hamidm looks at the positive side, Urstruly can only talk about the negatives, and bad mouth the country he has chosen to live in. It doesnt take a genius to figure out which one of the two is honest, and which one is dishonest.

The above begs the question - Why have you chosen to encourage Urstruly by referring to his bad mouthing of the US as being dishonest? Thanks in advance for your answer.

Gill Sahib, when the kaffirs like China and the india re ready to take over the world in teh next 50 years, shouldn' tthe maulvis be sending flowers to them instead of teh pope?

Re: # 69

gill sahib,

"There lies before us, if we choose, continual progress in happiness, knowledge, and wisdom. Shall we, instead, choose death, because we cannot forget our quarrels? We appeal as human beings to human beings"

.... it is a noble thought but i don't think it will work with people who think that happiness is a pagan concept, all that we need to know is in 'the book', and wisdom is the domain of bearded fools who pore over the book ..... it is also hopeless to talk to people who love death more than we love life and want to get to heaven in a hurry so that they can get it on with seventy virgins ...... and i am really not sure that they consider infidels and apostates like you as human beings .........

........ it is a hopeless cause .... the battle lines are clearly drawn and it will be a fight to the finish .. luckily, we have bigger and better arms than the poor meccans ......

Re: # 68

urstruly,

... i have been trying to invite you 'out' for years now - it is you who is stuck in flint ....

GT: #58
The two sides do not agree because they are not talking to each other. Each of them is paranoid of the other. We are making the usual presumptions and holding on to them. Many people do understand that its not my world and your world; it is our world. If we destroy it in the zeal of conquering it, all of us lose. We are sitting on the threshold of a nuclear holocaust.
Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell had published a manifesto in the 1950s drawing attention to the great danger that humanity is facing. I am appending a couple of extracts from it for the Chowk readers. Hope they'll empathize with the danger that all of us are facing.

"Here, then, is the problem which we present to you, stark and dreadful and inescapable: Shall we put an end to the human race; or shall mankind renounce war? People will not face this alternative because it is so difficult to abolish war.
The abolition of war will demand distasteful limitations of national sovereignty. But what perhaps impedes understanding of the situation more than anything else is that the term "mankind" feels vague and abstract. People scarcely realize in imagination that the danger is to themselves and their children and their grandchildren, and not only to a dimly apprehended humanity. They can scarcely bring themselves to grasp that they, individually, and those whom they love are in imminent danger of perishing agonizingly. And so they hope that perhaps war may be allowed to continue provided modern weapons are prohibited...
..................
There lies before us, if we choose, continual progress in happiness, knowledge, and wisdom. Shall we, instead, choose death, because we cannot forget our quarrels? We appeal as human beings to human beings: Remember your humanity, and forget the rest. If you can do so, the way lies open to a new Paradise; if you cannot, there lies before you the risk of universal death."

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 66

I think you need to get out more. You have one life to live; why spend it like a frog in the well.

should read "i haven't met a single 'religious' person who had any moral values"

Re: # 65

urstruly,

don't act dumb - you already know about the better ideas and ideologies ..... you spelled them out in your earlier post : Capitalism and Democracy .....

....... and don't give this bullshit about atheism and the lack of morality - i haven't met a single 'religious' who had any moral values - person starting with adam who screwed eve to get us kicked out of heaven, a senile old man who slept with his wife's maid to create our tribe, and a philanderer whose sexual antics have made us the laughing stock of the world .......

Re: # 64

Thanks for sharing your intellectual endeavor but hasn't it proven in your face, time and again, that "Shocks & awes", "agent oranges", "depleted uraniums", "mothers of all bombs", your favorite "daisy cuuters", "thermobarics" and "be all you can bes" do not work. These are the classic examples of the dance and prance of the weak horse. Ideas and ideology cannot be "killed" with bombs; ideas and ideologies can only be replaced with better ones. Had you had any better ideas and ideologies you wouldn't have needed the daisycutters in the first place. That is what I am trying to humbly submit in my last few posts.

Re: # 60

urstruly,

..... i hate to burst your bubble, but your horse is not a horse to begin with - it is a jackass! .....

.... you bitch and moan about this jackass being hobbled - who the heck hobbled it ? .....the rot began with the abominable four who started fighting over the jackass as soon as the original owner passed away ....... . this jackass did fine as long as the competition consisted of other jackasses, but now that it is facing thoroughbreds it doesn't stand a chance - the 313 medinites were able to defeat the 'horde' of a thousand meccans, because they were both armed with swords and sticks ... today, the competition has daisy cutters and other nasty stuff ........

.... people who want to ride this jackass are destined to live in dark caves .........

Re: # 62

Yes, if wishes were horses:)

#60 Posted by Urstruly:

Urstruly sahib,
The correct strategy is not to dicredit the 'stronger' horse. The correct strategy is to kill it. Na rahegi horse, na rahega race.

Enjoy the post Eid horse-race :)

Regards.

#59 Posted by Dash_Dot:

Let us cast aside fascism for the moment. Whith absolute beliefs (or simply beliefs as many in chowk put it), I cannot see how one can be both 'honest' and 'compromising' (peaceful?) under ALL conditions when beliefs are different.

Urstruly etc. can only accept peace under their own terms and they are honest about it (at least as far as chowk is concerned). The 138 religious scholars are just putting forth a puppet show (kaal and me call it sufiyapan). I fail to see how Gill can take it seriously. I actually found both the letter and the Archbishop's reply quite offensive. But the show must go on .....

Re: # 56

I am assuming that your post is addressed to me. You are not the only one asking the question but there are many Muslims who ask this question too. Osama Bin Laden while answering a similar question said that when people bet on horses they would rather bet on the strongest horse rather than on the weakest. This is the paradigm througgh which many people look at the conflict between Islam and Atheism.

But my last post addressed just that pointing to the fact that we are comparing the wrong horses. Consider a weak horse who is gasping for air but it is dressed nicely, its horseshoes are new and shiney; its gait is elegant; and it prances and dances while galloping. On the other hand there is an extremely strong horse but one of its front leg and and one rear leg on opposite side are tied with a rope just like some horse owners do back in Pakistan or India. It gives a limited mobility to the horse. Now put to race which horse is going to win. Weaker one but free or the stronger one but roped? people will obviously bet on the weaker ut free horse.

The stronger horse if free can beat the weaker horse anytime. It is the responsibility of Muslims to free the stronger horses which is chained with the vassalage of inferiority complex and shackles of lack of self confidence. This is our responsibility towards Allah.

So coming back to your question; do Muslims have a winning model of governance and economics? The answer is, we have taken the first steps already. Those who have weak horse are working overtime to discredit the stronger horse through propaganda and flasehood fearing that once the stronger horse is freed it will beat their weak horse anytime. Had they had a really strong horse they didn't have to all this. Its common sense.

Re: # 58

GT an interesting way of posing a question...its a conundrum of sorts.

You already have an answer of sorts below #55 from Urstruly's key board.

The categorical manner in which you have posed the question: the only answer is fascism (which is also what Urstruly advocates (ultimately his answer can be reduced to that - if it is shorn of all the niceties of religion he decorates it with). I am sure you for one moment are suggesting that this is way out.

Democracy thrives on this interplay of good over bad. That this the key to human progress. Without it we are monochrome and would still be riding camels and thinking cold is god's punishment for being a "sinner"!

Dr. Gill:

If two sides cannot agree on what is presently wrong in this world then how can they redeem the future of the world without violence?

For, the future can only be redeemed by getting rid of those who do 'bad' fully convinced that what they do is 'good'.

Urstruly #55 Very dramatic post. You have outdone yourself!! Congratulations. Drama Queens the world over are green with envy!!

can we see an example of this shiny islamic caliphate..just one..

The original question in the article that is "Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?" is hard to answer because Christians (of West)may be the stakeholders in the neo-colonial assault on Muslim lands but they are not the one who are calling the shots. Please keep in mind Islam originally was revealed to reform both Christianity and Judiaism. Judiaism rejects Islam on the basis of their perceived sense of racial superiority over all other. hence Judiaism has been reduced to a racial fraternity. On the other hand in Christianity the grafting of Greek and Roman pagan mythology has reduced it to a polytheistic religion-where gods have sons and fathers and they have mothers and what not. This is an absolute deviation from the religion of Abraham. The final blow to Christianity came with the renaissance when Christianity as an ideology was defeated on all fronts politically, militarily, and morally at the hands of atheists.

So the real interlocutors in this war of oppression and freedom are the Muslims and the atheists (Kafirs) of West in particular and of rest of the world in general. The adherents of other looser religions such as Christianity, Judiaism, Hinduism and Quadianism are on the Western bandwagon because this is their last ditch effort to survie and they are thinking that they are on the winning side. As a matter of fact their situation is nothing but damned if you and damend if you don't.

The correct approach, following the Sunnah of Holy Prophet (pbuh) has been adopted by Ahmadinejad who has addressed the heart of kufr (atheism) and conveyed them the message of Monotheism of Islam.

Christians and Jews has one advantage over atheists that even though they have corrupted their belief in equality of humanity and soveriegnity of Allah still has managed to the moral values that Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) taught them. Holy Prophet (pbuh) did nothing but revitalized the same moral values.

Atheists on the other hand, by default, cannot have moral values. At the best they can take some religious values and call them their own as long as it serves their purpose and then move on. There are two points however upon which atheists solely bank on:

1. An economic system that has benefitted them immensely materially. call it Capitalism.

2. A secular democratic system of governance.

Other than that what do they have ideologically and morally to offer? Nothing.

So a Muslim asks do I need to convert to atheist to benefit from Capatilism; if that is so then why don't the atheists of elsewhere like Russia benefitted from being atheists.

As far as secular democracy is concernd, it has consequences too, which West has begun to experience. So a Muslim would rather see the example rather than hearing the sermon.

#51 Posted by no-nick-fool,

Haha. Don't get mad. Just tell me, how long can americans remain in Iraq? (or Afghanistan for that matter).

Just give me a timeline. Thanks :)

# various laykinbilkul,

You're a fool so forget it.

#39 Posted by VRV

USA.NET address

USA.NET is (was?) just another web-based email. I had an account on it too.

2. I can agree if Koreans are against US but not Japs. We disagree here.

Aah ... and how about the Chinese? Did you miss them or was it a convenient oversight?

the yanks achieved what they set out to do....tell the numbers they killed and the numbers of theirs killed?

looking at one particular aspect does not tell you much about the whole picture. Generally the muslims (apart from the oily Arabs) are ritually humiliated - remember the body cavity searches you undergo whenever you enter the US.

Calling me names does not change the fact that right NOW the MUSLIMS are the biggest losers in this world. Intellectually backward. Culturally backward. Economically backward. Industrially backward.


Heck they cannot even process their own effing raw material - look at Iran the blighter's cannot even refine their own oil! If that is not humiliation than what is?

A few snake oil salesmen like the Iranian Prez can grand stand - but that does not take away the fact they are backward in all respects without much of a future right now - unless they are prepared to KILL THEIR CHILDREN AND KILL OTHERS.

Perhaps that is what guys like you want.

Zee man, did the americans lose in Iraq? they kind of went in and put a whuppin on the locals and carved up the country in three..sort of taking the fight to the enemy...

I like this conceopt of "muslims never losing"...these types of victories are great.

#42 Posted by no nick fool,

You can go and tell the americans that in Iraq.

Laykin i 'dont believe' Pandas like rest of you just as much as you "believe" in Imam Bukhari .

Laykin the world is global now every where you can 'go' including Jama masjid MathurA Kashi .....

Re: # 44

"It is the muslims who have created this ntion that this is a Clash of Civilisations. "

So says Wafa Sultan - but no muslims wants to listen to her- they prefer to be bewitched by the mullahs cursing her.

Senna, what have you experienced?

#41

Laykin Pandas of Puri, Hardiwar Vrindavan charge much less for there own show and tell

Re: # 6
gill sahib, the muslims have to get over this idea that this is a clash of civilisations. No it is not a clash of civilisations. It is a clash of concepts - the majority of the muslims should wash their hands of the culprits and their methods and treat them as criminals (TAHMED32 says Islam is not about the killing done by the terrorists, hamidm2 says they are criminals) - as basically the majority do not have any truck with these guys (or atleast that is what they say - but do not voice this opinion in public but are silent).

It is the muslims who have created this ntion that this is a Clash of Civilisations. For they were the first who got all excited with this new theory. If only they had treated it as such it would have gone the way of many other such theories. In the islamic mind such (social and historical) theories are taken as factual truths (in science Mathematical theory can be taken as the truth and fact but in liberal art?????) and given the penchant for conspiracy theories these take on a life of their own.

No this is not a clash of civilisations - but a criminal venture thrown upon the civilised world by the terrorists.

ooops god=got in #42
they=the in #42
encricled=encircled in #42

zeemax, I beg to differ - the ottomans god their ass handed back to them serially till the end of WW-I. After that they muslim lands got bombed and gassed and dumped. They were (and are) encricled and currently are in a situation which is worse than defeat - they are utterly humiliated and shown to be incompetents who cannot even organise a piss up in a brewery. The Japs got defeated but they are in a kick ass position and they have won in the long term.

I would have preferred total defeat than this ritual humiliation. I think you are clutching at straws.

Aaah Jama Masjid in Delhi..I remember praying to Hanuman there once..

And for a mere 500 rupees you can see three red hair from Mohammed's beard in a tiny jar that the mullah holds so close to his heart.

Zee man, muslims are 1/6th of humanity..it just won't work. The chinkoos and the hinjews will own the next 300-500 years. maybe after that..the muslims cna take a turn.

Zee,

'The Muslims' approach. Because they're the toughest to beat.'

Achcha??????????????

In fact the rulers of Muslim countries san Mahatir Mohammed, Ahmedinejad are the first-rate ass kissers. They dont even issue a statement when Israel bombs Syria or Lebanon coz they dont like to be admonished by Uncle Sam.

Take Musharraf. He's a good ass kisser too. Do u disgaree??

Zee,

My point is abt Imam flaunting his USA.NET address as if there's no Hotmail or Yahoo (leading email providers @ that time).

2. I can agree if Koreans are against US but not Japs. We disagree here.

#35 Posted by VRV,

Look ... I know Japs. Don't take such small things as their mindset. They simply hate US.

As for Jama Masid New Dehli, what's wrong with using technology? It doesn't belong exclusively to them anyway. All nations have a contribution to that.

Re: # 31
ladu
things are much complicated than simply muslim versus christian EU and US want to route gas and oil pipelines from central asia through muslim Turkey thereby avoiding christian Russia and they want to increase their dependence on gas from muslim north africa.

btw India and china are seen as rivals for the upcoming competition for resources.

#34 Posted by majumdar,

And which approach do you think is more likely to work?

The Muslims' approach. Because they're the toughest to beat.

Never mind if until recently large masses of Muslim nations ...

I said as a 'people', they have never been defeated, as the Japanese were with the atom bombs or the Chinese by the British/Japanese or the S. Koreans where US bases still dominate their country.

...in between there would be some "friendly contests" some Chinks getting abducted in Islooo ... ocassional Chinks getting bumped off in Gwadar

You mean the chink massage parlours? Those are spying networks. Gwadar/Hub? All that is a battle for domination of that great Islamic force which is on the move.

Samjha karo ...

...the yellows hate the western designs as much as the Muslims

Zee,

U r off the mark. If u know Japs, u wudnt be saying this. Did u visit Japan?

Chinese, san the Commies/official attitude are pro-US as well. The western culture that breeds in HK and China is in front of our eyes. They lap up everything that's American.

As for Indians, the public support for the Nuclear deal by the middle class is amazing. They even brushed aside BJP (that's my impression on TV shows). As for Indian Muslims...they are not far behind.

In my first visit to Jama Masid New Dehli (2002), I noticed onething that even hardcore imams cant be immune to the things that are American. A notice board by the imam Bukhari at Jama Masjid reads like this:

For any suggestions pl write to

'imam....bukhari@USA.NET. (sic)

as if there's no other email provider. Even imam of Dehli is fond of USA tag!!

OK, u may disregard this as love to America. I agree.

What abt MMA Hussian's son having education in the US instead of @ Jamia Binoria?

Dont u see any contradiction here? The so called leaders do tell their wards to study @ madarsas but they want everybody else to study @ madarsas.

(From India I can quote some examples of this paradox. Mulayam dont any English in India but sends his son to a school in Ooty and later to Australia, where nothing but English works. Bal Thackery wants his Shiv sainiks to be suicide bombers but he doesnt train his sons to be suicide bombers. Same goes for Osmama and Mullah Omar).

Zeemax,

(Though I wonder why you missed Bharat. Anyway I'll answer Bharat first. Definitely on the side of kanjaroons.)

I know that. That's why I didn't ask. Besides, India ain't a superpower yet, irrespective of what some of my countrymen think.

(Yellows are patient ... they wait for centuries, while Muslims don't.)

And which approach do you think is more likely to work?

(Muslims fight because they've never been defeated as a people.)

Never mind if until recently large masses of Muslim nations were occupied by Goras. Russians, Austrians and Brits repeatedly licking Turks from 1600 onwards, Goras licking the Mughals and Tipu Sultan.

(So I guess that puts them on your 'havayoons' side. In any event, you would know who is arming the Muslim front.)

Of course, in between there would be some "friendly contests". For instance in Uighurstan, some Chinks getting abducted in Isloo, ocassional Chinks getting bumped off in Gwadar and all that.

Regards

#27 Posted by majumdar,

Where wud u put countries like China, Japan and Korea in this debate? On the side of kanjarooons or havayoooons?

Excellent question. Though I wonder why you missed Bharat. Anyway I'll answer Bharat first. Definitely on the side of kanjaroons.

Re China, Japan and Korea, remember these are yellow people, and none of them forget. All of them have suffered much the same as Muslims at one time or another as Muslims are suffering now. The only difference is in approach towards redressal. Yellows are patient ... they wait for centuries, while Muslims don't. Muslims fight because they've never been defeated as a people. Yellows have been completely defeated as a people several times.

As for your question, the yellows hate the western designs as much as the Muslims, if not more. So I guess that puts them on your 'havayoons' side.

In any event, you would know who is arming the Muslim front.

Re: # 24

Perhaps that is the way the 138 mullahs are trying to seek employement in the modern world - by trying to be 'brokers' to the violence being inspired, instigate and nurtured by them.

Re: # 26

Europe does not need Arab world (that includes Pakistan).

It can just look up to over populated India and China for its labour needs.

Regarding energy needs- The panic buttons are already pressed and alternative 'sources' of oil as well as energy are now on the way.

Koleans and Madalins ale all kanjaloons

Legalds

aslam #26: other costs of the mindless anti-west attitude of the mullahs/terrorists is the blocked independence of Kosovo and the opposition to Turkey joining the EU.

On immigration vs automation, Japan has taken the latter road with factory automation, and Europe may end up being the beneificary of advancements made in Japan.

majumdar: the orientals would be the kanjalooons. (no "r").

Zeemax sahib,

Re: #25

Basically Kanjarooon v/s Havayooooon.

Where wud u put countries like China, Japan and Korea in this debate? On the side of kanjarooons or havayoooons?

Regards

The backlash against muslims post 9/11 has been there in Europe if rather subtle, from planning permission for new mosques to tighter immigration laws. Unlike US, muslim countries are on the doorstep of Europe so for this reason it has to be very careful not to antagonise them, it relies on them for its energy needs, also maybe in the near future for its manpower needs, because Europe’s population is ageing fast for it to maintain its living standards it would have to import upto 50m people in the next 20 to 30 years, unless ofcourse there is new technology which would do the work of humans.

These 138 are totally off the mark. They're probably all 'sufis'.

These are neither crusades nor is this a war between Islam and Christianity as a faith. It is between the Muslim apostate regimes and some of their peoples aligned with western powers of whatever faith (or none) who're looking for raw materials to produce plentiful useless goods in excess of their own markets, and then someone to consume this excess production of useless goods by making them adapt their cultures towards this end; and between those Muslim folks who have an alternate politico - economic system ingrained in their faith, and want control of their markets, don't want this junk, don't want to abandon their cultures, and don't want to have to keep dishing away their resources to those who manufacture the junk just to keep the standards of living up in their own lands - while at the same time hanging on tight to any worthwhile technology.

In short, it is all about 'globalization'.

However, Islam is the ONLY motivational force in existence to withstand and resist this onslaught, and therefore its lethal version has bared its fangs. Beware when this happens because nothing will stop it before it achieves its ends.

An extract from a previous UP thread is relevant:

Bhai, this conflict is NOT about Islamic ideology. It is about foreign occupation of Afghanistan which is only another country in you liberals' puny dumb minds but the SAME country for the FATA tribals (they don't give a rat's ass about Durand Line). They're fighting for its liberation and you apostate Pakistanis are killing them (and their schoolgirls, and their old and young) for their doing that. This is totally unacceptable for them. Their terms of staying loyal to Pakistan since the very outset mandate NO Pakistan army inside their territory. If you send it there, they will kill your army. Period.

Secondly, the larger conflict in the rest of the Islamic world (Terrorists? Fundamentalists?) is also not about Islamic ideology. It is all about resisting the projection of US military power in Muslim regions to maintain the US single political & economic system, which is considered by large segments of their populations as exploitative.

Islam is an alternative politico-economic system to the US type Capitalism, PLUS a huge motivating force in the rationale for violent Jihad. That's why the resistance has taken an Islamic form. However, religion was never either the initiator nor the raison' detre for it to begin with.

What a waste,

The 138 muslim scholars instead of writing to the pope, should have declared that there is nothing like a muslim world, the sunnis are killing teh shias, the tribal muslims of pakistan are killing the mulsim punjabi soldiers, the arb mulsims of sudan are killing the black muskims of sudan ( evry much in line with pak penchant for their beauty and fair colour )

Secondlly they should declare that the 9/11 achieved nothing for the muslims.

The london bombers and their trainers in pakistan should be prosecuted.

That would have been a good indication that the muslim scholars have joined the civilisation.

It is pathetic that such irrelevant propaganda about the actions of ignorant mullahs gets the bandwidth on chowk.

Gill saab please do try to stop this types of wrticles.

These 138 Mullahs are blood sucking parasites and need to be made to earn for their living than fantasizing about the rest of the non muslim world paying jizya to them after acepting dhimmitude!!!

Mohammad Gill

Teshah ji has a bit of an unusual take on matters of religion.

One is guessing, teshah ji thinks of this 'letter' as an offer by one bunch of medievalistic bigots (in his view) to another bunnch of medievalistic bigots (again, in his view) to arrive at a mutual accommodation, that would then allow both of them to divide up the world among themselves.

teshah ji seems to see this not as any effort to "redeem the future of the world", but as a proposal to jointly mess up that future for all others, but themselves.

teshahji, please correct me if I misunderstood you.

---------------

Mohammad Gill, you can debunk teshah ji's theory by showing clearly how these Muslim Scholars are interested in securing the future of the entire world and not merely in gaining the support of medievalist Christianity.

(not having read the letter myself, don't know whether teshah ji is right or not)

BAN BRAINWASHING!
CELEBRATE TRUTH!

The West would feign surprise that their arsenal of nuclear weapons and stockpiles of other WMDs is seen by the Muslim world as a threat to it and would counter with an assertion that on the contrary any technology acquired by the later is an absolute disaster to the West if not to the world at large. Hence the song and dance and protests against Iran’s efforts for example, to acquire nuclear technology. In spite of its repeated assurance of it being for peaceful energy generation.
It is generally stated that the West in this regard employs double standards. This suggests that there is some kind of standard in the first place. It is obvious that there isn’t any standard at all!
In layman’s terms, wasn’t there an assurance given in a treaty that the Nuclear Club would dismantle its nuclear arsenal by 1997? One understands from the ex-UN Ambassador Richard Butler, that by 2005 the signatories have not even started the process of dismantling their weapons! And perhaps not even now. Instead we now have additional so called nuclear rogue States, although some are considered friendly and others as Evil States.
Why does not the West realise that by erroneously and misguidedly singling out the Muslims as anti Western and its reaction to the injustices perpetrated in, say the Palestine-Israel issues among others in the Muslim world, the West is creating the atmosphere of hatred with religious overtones. The language of this particular US Administration with terms like the Crusade and Evil etc and turning once Muslim friends into enemies is the main source of the state the world has degenerated into today where Christians, Muslims and every body else is suffering.
No the religion and religious leaders have nothing to do with the situation. For there is a LOT IN COMMON WITH THE TWO FAITHS, except the politicians.
Rashid

tehshah:
Although I generally agree with what you wrote about mullahs, yet if they suggest to do some good through their religious influence on the masses, why should we denigrate it? Howsoever hard you may berate them stereotypically, it is a fact that they have greater influence on the masses than the highly enlightened (!) people like you and me. And if they purport to use their influence for a good cause why should we put them down? We should not prejudge and become purposelessly doomsayers.
The intent of the letter that the religious leaders wrote is good. Whether they'll deliver the purported good, we've to wait and see. They will hardly worsen the existing situation which already seems to be at its worst.
If anybody intends to try to produce peace through peaceful means, I support him (her) no matter who he (she) is. We have been brought to the existing apocalyptic juncture by a propaganda of hate; let us try to move away from it and advocate peaceful means for seeking peace. It is better to talk than to bomb.
Mohammad Gill

It is sheer nonsense I did not expect from Mr. Gill.

As Allama Iqbal had said:

"Deen-e-Mullah (professional religion abusers, misnamd 'Ullema') fi sabilillah fassaad"

It would be a bad day for the world civilization if they both, the Islamic and Christian Mullah, get together.

Also, I want it to be noted that I agree with most of what masadi the fasadi writes. Other than his anger directed at gentle souls like Gill sahib and Dr. Sohail. I also support his fury at Manto, for I think that cretin truly deserves it.

Jeeyo masadi jeeyo ...
with much respect,
thinking storm

masadi writes: "First let me begin by saying that the author, who mass produces articles on here, has again produced a tape recorderesque, banal, nonsensical article that helps cloud the issues rather than fix any problems."

Yaar masadi, please append that to your signature, but change the author to (Mohammad Gill and Dr.Sohail)... look at my signature for inspiration :D

No offence Gill sahib, I think this article is a worthy one indeed.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Dr. Gill,

I agree with ur opinion - each and every word of it.

Such letters in themselves can not stop the war and herald a peaceful era because the political power and the decision-making authority is not in the hands of the religious leaders who wrote the letter. They however can certainly help to change the propaganda of hatred which is fuelling the fires of the war and consequent violence. Under the present circumstances, those who vie for peace are considered unrealistic ideologues which is simply unfortunate. The clash of civilizations can not create a peaceful ambience for any one. Violence begets violence. It is very dangerous and can lead to a global conflict with nuclear weapons. True, the Muslim world doesn't have the nukes but an expanded conflict will not necessarily remain confined to the west and the Muslim world. It might drag in other conutries as well.
In my opinion, war is not the solution to any thing; it is, on the other hand, a pathway to global destruction. If homo-sapiens want to sutvive, they will need to learn to live in peace.
The response of Archbishop of Canterbury is encouraging and if he and the other religious leaders, Christian and Muslim, continue to preach and practice peace among their communities and condemn violence, the existing heightened climate of hatred might be scaled down.
Mohammad Gill

#11 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 15, 2007 12:36:52 pm

Bhai,

I beg to differ.

There's a landmark accord btw Shias and Sunni clerics in Iraq not so long ago. Had the polarisation stopped there?

U know very well the western societies are not under the spell of clergy. If u remember Pope spoke against Lebanon and Iraq in the past. Has Israel stopped it offensive or Bush halted his hold on Iraq?

These rapproachment btw the religious heads wud add to atmospherics. There wont be any meaningful result out of such accords.

Prolly a constant hammering abt the Jews, Muslims and Christains being the children of Abraham/Ibrahim wud bring some perspective in this world. Not much though.

The author writes "Even if the Pope responds positively, it will not immediately stop the ongoing warfare, but it will be a first step in the right direction. "

First let me begin by saying that the author, who mass produces articles on here, has again produced a tape recorderesque, banal, nonsensical article that helps cloud the issues rather than fix any problems.

Now, when we know that this letter is the work of idiots who want to crystallize into reality, the mythical war that does not exist in the world while at the same time legitmizing the Huntington thesis-which is a bunch of BS- as well as obfuscating the real issues that of the US elite maintaining their hegemony at the expense of the rest of the world. So, why is the US media so fascinated with this letter. On the one hand they don't want to show Musilms in a conciliatory mode, so they say it contains veiled threats and on the other they want to show that this farce the WOT is actually a war between civilization (Christian) and an ideology of hate (Islam). They get to have their pie and eat it too thanks to the work of some idiots who want to play Captain Kirk by writing grand letters, with their mind stuck in the Middle Ages where the Church dominated the scene but now is valued less than a backyard sewer as far as determining global affairs of consequence.... The US started this farce, they fueled this farce, they have institutionalized this farce and part of that farce is this back and forth about Islam- neither Islam nor Christianity have anything to do with this WOT or the global security situation, whatsoever....

as to gill sahib's question, 'can religious leaders redeem the future of the world?' the answer is an unconditional YES. ONLY they can do it.

the ulama who wrote this open letter are all respected traditionalist [as opposed to extremist] ulama and it is a noble gesture but i don't think it will make the blindest bit of difference simply because it takes two hands to clap and the vatican is not interested in serious dialogue with islam--certainly not under ratzinger the nazi pope.

also, the real popes of the west are the banking institutions and not the vatican any more. it is not the middle ages.

Re: # 7

gill sahib,

..... i am afraid that the clash of civilizations - actually it is a clash between the civilized and the uncivilized - cannot be stopped unless al-lah sends down a revision to his message ...... as long as people like dr israr, zeemax, urstruly and osama keep on iterpreting the holy text in its originnal form, this clash is inevitable .....

..... but, it is really nothing to worry about ..... the world has survived many clashes between civilizations and between civilized people and barbarians ...... rome, greece, byzantium, arab, dutch, persian, german,chinese, japanese, portugese, ottoman, mongol - you name it, and every "civilization" has clashed with another at some time or the other ..... some, like the mongols, disappeared from the scences and others like the dutch have been diminished greatly ....... only a few primitive people - like hindoos and the eskimos - have managed to stay above this fray .... but if you believe huntington, hindooism is also a real civilization and it might be part of this global clash soon ..........

Gill sahib, what do you suggest? Invite islamic fundosover for chai patta and try to discuss why Allah is crazy for thinking he owns the planet?

Maybe as a scholar and a writer, you should write an eessay ont he following:

"whereever there are muslims in significant minority..there are problems with co-existence" ---philippines to Europe.

Dash-Dot: #2
Let me clarify as follws.
Samuel Huntington published his "The Clash of Civilizations" in 1996. The attack on the twin towers of The World Trade Center occurred on Septenber 11, 2001, which played into the hands President Bush to open up the way for attack on Afghanistan. Although Iraq was invaded on the facile claim that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction, it was a step toward opening up the clash of civilizations against the Muslim world. If now Iran is invaded, it would further expand into a wider conflict of civilizations. Although Huntington's concept is flawed as pointed out by many critics, the neocons have taken it literally and run with it.
I concluded my article by writing "The clash of civilizations must stop before it gets out of hand" in the above perspective.
Mohammad Gill

Dash-Dot: #2
Let me clarify as follws.
Samuel Huntington published his "The Clash of Civilizations" in 1996. The attack on the twin towers of The World Trade Center occurred on Septenber 11, 2001, which played into the hands President Bush to open up the way for attack on Afghanistan. Although Iraq was invaded on the facile claim that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction, it was a step toward opening up the clash of civilizations against the Muslim world. If now Iran is invaded, it would further expand into a wider conflict of civilizations. Although Huntington's concept is flawed as pointed out by many critics, the neocons have taken it literally and run with it.
I concluded my article by writing "The clash of civilizations must stop before it gets out of hand" in the above perspective.
Mohammad Gill

You can't talk to religious nutcases. How do you talk to peole who fly planes into buildings, blow up pizza parlors. movie threaterrs,. buses and trains all in the name of religious warfare or perceived injuctices..screw that..no talking. Take it to them and stick it up their ass.

Sometime back a few Orthodox Jew high priests from Israel had a dialog with their Indian (Hindu!) counterparts. And they concluded that both Hinduism and Judaism teach us the same thing. I mean give me a frikking break!!

These pompous assholes think that the old man in Rome controls Christiandome. Isn't it a little too presumptuous of them to assume the responsibility of Muslim masses?

gill sahib is it that "The clash of civilizations must stop before it gets out of hand" or a clash of ideas?.

Religious priests - christian and muslim - can serve humanity best by getting a real job.