Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?

dm #228 good cop out, dm sahib. just do me the favor of not mis)representing my views in future. it will save your precious time, and my useless time doesnt matter of course.

ahmedmadani#233:

Yes, for now, but not sure for how long? The Kurds love for Kurds rebellion in Turkey might be their undoing. They have the same fatal attraction for an independent Kurdistan that Pakistanis have for Kashmir.

Re: # 218 Kurds are winners ?

Re: # 71

freethinker

"But what perhaps impedes understanding of the situation more than anything else is that the term "mankind" feels vague and abstract."

But what about the term 'religion'? It is more vague than the term 'mankind'. It includes anti-human cults like those of 'Kaali Devi' and 'IslamoFascists' to the great humanistic 'Buddhism'. We see 'pure' spiritualistic religion like 'Makki' Islam turning into an over-politicised 'Madni' Islam, leading ultimately to the carnage of the very family of the Prophet.

Why limit the interaction to Muslims and Christians only? Let's join forces with all religious/non-religious belief systems. Afterall, this planet is but ONE, yet we are as people MANY.

hamid writes "i seriously doubt the neocons had any idea that there was so much animosity and hatred between the various groups in iraq ..... , a trifurcation might be the best solution for the people ....... "

Quit playing the MAJ (MFJ) role of dividing up a country based on the nonsense that they cannot get along- the US invasion is the cause of all the animosity and hatred that exists, the US has played one group against the other and might even be involved in particular instances- those people have had a long history of living together in peace and harmony and the only grievance the shias had were not against their sunni neighbours but against a regime. The sectarianism was inflamed by the US when it rushed to Saddar city at the fall of baghdad in order to use those thugs and punish the sunnis under the guise of "debathification"...

Re: # 227

dost,

.. no the are not better off now, but they will be if the country is trifurcated ..

tahmed#221:

Okay, you win. You are not an admirer of the West. I have to go to Montreal now. Have a nice weekend.

hamidm#220:

I am not saying that big is necessarily better but can you honestly say that the Iraqis are now safer, better fed, clothed or even less under the Mullah yoke than they were under Saddam? In case you missed, your friends have turned perhaps the least sexist and most secular Arab country into a sharia-based one. Great going!

Also, you underestimate the Intelligence strength of the neocons' middle eastern friends. They knew better than anyone else the shia-sunni schism in Iraq.

tahmed writes to dm "Accusations and misrepresentation of views without burdening oneself with substantiating them is your privilege. Not wasting my time with them is mine.

Have a nice day"

Please note this oft repeated "strategy" of this moron. Whenever stumped by an argument he claims responding to it is a "waste of his time", when his dimwitted arguments (always in support of the official US position- submitting to them completely), and not only ill thought out they are mere cheerleading and fake emotionalism. Ignore this sos (where the latter s stands for swine), only keep exposing him and his pro-West BS.

#202 Urstruly,

It is anybody's guess that Bezamir has brought with her truck loads of dollars to establish PPP militias, which will be obviously trained by NaPak fouj. The civil war is written on the wall and so is the kidnappings, torture, and abu-ghraibs.

Right on the mark. That's what the newly recruited 20,000 strong "Janisaar-e-Benazir" are obviously for. Add the MQM armed wing to it and you have a perfect Iraq/Nicaragua mix Negreponte style.

Re: # 220


The fault lines are less with respect to language and culture - there were thousands of small tribes each claiming to be a nation but all that is now past- even one mohallah and gali claimed to be a different nation !!! But that is all gone. Presently the fault lines are more in respect of religious differences especially where Islam comes in to claim its political space.

where are these shameless 138 mullahs who claim to be brokering the peace between Islam and rest of the world!!!

How about attaining some peace with in themselves first?

hamidm #216 the prescription you provide (fire all iraqis) was tried early on, and even its authors now admit that it was one of the biggest blunders in the iraq war. And who was sent to run Iraq - individuals who passed the neo-con ideology test. Thus, a 21-22 year old genius was put in charge of building the iraqi stock exchange e.g.

over eid, i met an iraqi gentleman with most of his family living in baghdad - i asked him what was the biggest problem his family faced, and he surprised me by saying it was the lack of electricity (not security). I asked him why was electricity such a big problem - he told me that all electric generators were blown up in the war by the geniuses running the war. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!

#217 dost mittar: so, you misrepresent my views, are unable to back it with anything other than a post written without the benefit of hindsight over four years ago which I then take the trouble of explaining. You ignore that, and rather than simply apologizing for misrepresenting my views you do some masadi-style stonewalling by claiming that you didnt have the heart to look for the really, really terrible posts I had written.

Enough said. Have a good day.

Re: # 218

dost,

.... your line of reasoning is pretty good even though i don't fully agree with - i seriously doubt the neocons had any idea that there was so much animosity and hatred between the various groups in iraq ..... but now that it is obvious that these people cannot live together in peace, a trifurcation might be the best solution for the people .......

.......the notion that big is better does not hold true for nation states ..... the people of the chezk republic and slovakia are much better off today, as are the people of slovenia, serbia, bosnia and montenegro (and russia)......... if the british hadn't arrived on the scene to hold 'india' together, the subcontinent would have been like europe, consisting of many independent states, and we would all have been better off ..... imagine an independent punjab without the burden of bihar or waziristan ........ sigh !

SRK#215:

B. Raman is not the only one. Hamid Mir is saying the same thing:

Url: http://ia.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/19hamid.htm

Excerpt:



"The PPP leadership pointed their fingers towards the head of the Intelligence Bureau Brig (Rtd) Ejaz Shah as the person responsible for the bombings.

Even Benazir mentioned his name with displeasure few days ago in London and claimed that Ejaz Shah is trying to sabotage a reconciliation between the PPP and Musharraf.

Now the big question is why does the PPP think that the head of a civilian intelligence agency is the mastermind of the great tragedy in Karachi on October 18? Asif Ali Zardari told this writer that Ejaz Shah have old links with Islamic radicals.

He claimed Ejaz Shah was the person who managed the surrender of Omer Sheikh in 2002, a suspect in the killing of American journalist Daniel Pearl. Asif Ali Zardari is sure that people like Ejaz Shah have encouraged Islamic radicals to attack Benazir.

Ejaz Shah was the home secretary of the Punjab province in 2002. He belongs to Nankana Sahib area of Punjab. Mother of Omer Sheikh was also from Nankana Sahib. When security agencies raided the house of her mother's parents in Nankana Sahib, Ejaz Shah contacted the uncle of the alleged terrorist who was a session judge at that time.

Uncle convinced his nephew through Ejaz Shah to surrender and that was how Omer Sheikh was arrested.

Some PPP sources have said that Ejaz Shah was the person who created the Pakistan Mulsim League-Q in Punjab. He was also a key figure in breaking more than 20 members of the national assembly from the PPP after the election in 2002. This is why the PPP leadership has problems with him.

People like Abida Husain who left the PML-Q and joined the PPP due to the disliking of Ejaz Shah are also trying to poison Benazir against their old enemy. Ejaz Shah is being considered a trusted confidant of General Pervaiz Musharraf but he is also very close to chaudhries of Gujrat.

According to reliable sources, Benzair Bhutto have declared not only Ejaz Shah but also Chief Minister of Punjab Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi as the enemies of her life in a letter to Musharraf recently.

Top government sources are not ready to agree with Benazir. They think Benazir should make an alliance with Musharraf against terrorism instead of fighting with the old allies of Musharraf. One source claimed that Ejaz Shah, who was the head of anti-narcotics force in 1998, refused to do Nawaz Sharif's bidding when the then prime minister tried to involve Asif Ali Zardari in a norcotics case. The Nawaz regime later booked Zardari in the same fake case with the help of the Punjab police.

It is also viewed by some government circles that head of a civilian intelligence agency is a soft target for the PPP and the real target is the boss of Ejaz Shah, who is, no doubt, General Pervez Musharraf [Images].

The PPP is trying to pressurize Musharraf by targeting people like Ejaz Shah and Ch. Pervaiz Elahi for getting some more concessions. It is also believed that this mistrust between the PPP and Musharraf is not good for both of them.

Musharraf called Benazir on Thursday and condoled the death of her workers in suicide bombings. Musharraf conveyed a message that we must be united against terrorism and not fight with each other. Musharraf also asked the leadership of the PML-Q not to make statements against the PPP. Both the PPP and the PML-Q will face a big challenge in the coming months.

All the intelligence agencies are concerned about is the coming general election. Not only Benazir, but also many leaders of the PML-Q are on the hit list of suicide bombers and it would be difficult to organise public meetings and rallies during the election compaign. The differences between the PPP and the PML-Q will only help the opponents of Musharraf.

Pakistan is going through a very critical time today. It needs reconciliation not only between some individuals but also between political parties having adverse views. 40 years ago Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto wrote a book The Great Tragedy just six months before the disintegration of Pakistan.

He started his book by saying: 'Pakistan is passing through a terrible ordeal. This country, born in pain, is experiencing its gravest crisis. The nightmare of Pakistanis killing Pakistanis is not yet over. Blood is still being spilled. The situation has become greatly complicated by the aggressive involvement of India'.

40 years after, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's daughter is blaming not India but some Pakistanis for the great tragedy in Karachi. The nightmare of Pakistanis killing Pakistanis is still not over.

Musharraf should at least investigate who was actually responsible for shutting down the street lights on Shahra-e-Faisal just few moments before the bombers struck.

He owes it to Benazir."

hamidm#216:

I have a different take from most people on this issue and had once expressed my views in an exchange with Romair, now bulleya.

I do not think that the Iraq war has been a failure for everyone. There was one group, I think, that knew exactly what its goal was and has achieved that goal remarkably well. These were the neocons.

Neocons and the oil lobby were the two groups supporting the Iraq war. While the oil lobby was interested in securing oil, the neocons were interested in the dismemberment of the Iraqi state and not just the removal of Saddam Hussain. This purpose would not have been served by any of the things which you suggest because that would have preserved a strong and unified Iraq. If you notice carefully, the neocons war-mongers have largely left the scene and columnists like Thomas Friedman, who were so gung-ho about Iraq, are now seeking a withdrawal from there. There purpose has been served and they are now even supporting a formal trifurcation of that country.. The state of Iraq has been destroyed.

On the other hand, the oil lobby, led by Cheney, is still interested in a stable source of oil supplies and is therefore not in favour of a withdrawal.

tahmed#211:

"o, you had to go back four and a half years on chowk before finding something I had written!!"

Yes, I googled chowk and picked up a random relevant interact from before the war started; indeed, I would have to go even farther to give evidence of support for the Afghan bombing. However, this sample was not the strongest one you wrote but I really hated doing what I did and have no stomach for doing this sort of thing any more.

The point however is that you have defended the US bombings of foreign countries, even its use of the nukes on other countries. Whether the US is justified in attacking undemocratic countries (and only those it doesn't like, it has no problem in supporting undemocratic regimes in China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and various countries in the Gulf and Latin America) is another matter.

Re: # 213

tahmed,

.... you read me wrong .... tommy franks was not in charge of iraq, he was just a battlefield general ...... what i meant was that bush should have put an american administration in place for 10-15 years with the highest ranking iraqi being the deputy dog-catcher in baghdad .....

... also i was referring to iran as being the next nazi germany and not some terrorist holed up in waziristan ........

BB is pointing finger at "certain people". Any guesses on who those people are? One Indian analyst ( B Raman) is saying that it is Ejaj Shah. Is that correct?

It is sad to see so many people losing their lives.

The mistake in Iraq started with not enough troops on the ground so the culprit is actually Rumsfeild and by continuing with him' Bush the CnC.

#212 hamidm: last i checked, Franks was an american general - and he screwed up royally by not providing for a peaceful transition to democracy by assuming that once saddam was gone, all iraqis would get together like little munchkins singing "Ding Dong, the Witch is dead!!".

As for the islamic terrorist becoming another Nazi Germany - I think they are more like the baader-meinhof gang than nazi germany (but dont hold me to this - unlike Romair, I do not have perfect foresight).

Re: # 211

tahmed,

... stop being such a wus and a monday morning quarterback ..... bush did the right thing in iraq; his only fault is that he didn't put in enough forces and tried to turn it over to the iraqis too soon - he should have put an american general in charge and told the bedouins to cool their heels for at least ten years while he kicked their nightgowned asses into shape ...... these people are not ready to run their own affairs yet ......

as for iran, i think it will be a mistake to wait too long .... once the iranians have nukes they will be much harder to deal with - it is time to bomb all their military facilities and enforce a comple economic embargo with a naval and air blockade ...... that regime must go ... now! ..... however, as i have said many times before, the root cause of all the troubles in the world is the province of hijaz - it must be liberated and put under under the control of the united nations ........

......... this problem has to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a bigger problem like nazi germany .......

... thank you for your support ..

dost mittar: So, you had to go back four and a half years on chowk before finding something I had written!! That in itself shows the weakness of your claim that I provide uncritical support of the west.

And lets not stop here. Lets examine what I wrote:

Your concern is that a US attack on Iraq will set a precedence for the US to attack any country at will. I dont share this concern, for a number of reasons. History shows democracies generally do not initiate aggressive wars. This is done by dictatorships, kingships etc. in their persuit of glory and retention of their personal rule. In a democracy like the US, there are too many countervailing forces, as indeed the intense debate on the subject within the US demonstrates.

My "uncritical support" above is clearly not to the west per se (unless you think that Putin's Russia is not a part of the west, or that Nazi Germany e.g. was not a part of the west), but of democratic societies. Big difference!! So, this does not back your claim.

I continued: And this is despite the fact that there is a very strong case for the US to attack Iraq and to take out Saddam Hussein. I was obviously wrong in assuming that the Bush Administration was telling the truth when it presented Powell presented the evidence at the UN. Had I known how fake the whole deal was, I would not have said this. So here again, you were too quick to jump to conclusions about my views without providing me the courtesy of asking.

I continue: And even if the US were to attack an undemocratic regime like Iran, I personally would shed no tears: the inhabitants of such countries are effectively dienfranchised, and their basic human rights to hold and express their opinions are already curbed, so at worst (which, realistically speaking, wont happen anyway) they will simply exchange rulers and at best (which is much more likely) they will be on the road to democracy and freedom. Look at how the US occupation of Japan freed that country from the dictatorship of the Japanese militarists and a god-like emperor into a modern, peace-loving and progressive nation. No Japanese seriously wishes to start worshipping their political rulers again.

I was correct in saying that the Iranian regime is undemocratic, and I was correct in pointing to the historic benefits that the US occupation of Japan and Germany after World War II provided to those countries - i.e. they have emerged as robust democracies. I was incorrect in assuming that the US would repeat this performance under Bush. Given the mess made by the Bush regime in Iraq, the innocent people killed, would I suggest it mess with Iran? Of course not.

So, next time you presume to present my views, I suggest you provide me the courtesy of asking first.

And btw, the above post - written four and a half years ago - still does not support the what I said were lies written by masadi, as I had said earlier. So I can only assume that I was correct in noting that the difference between a lie and the truth is not important to you as long as you like what you hear.

Re: # 202

urstruly,

....why is your heart sinking ? ... i thought that this is what you had hoped for - a showdown between the momineen and the kafiroon ........ are you hedging your bets now? .... don't worry, if things don't work out for the party of al-lah, you can apply for political asylum in the us (unless you have already done it once) ......

tahmed32:

Here is one of the "namoonas" of your support for the US invasion of not only Iraq but possibly of Iran as well:

" #25 Posted by tahmed32 on March 8, 2003 9:27:34 am
Your concern is that a US attack on Iraq will set a precedence for the US to attack any country at will. I dont share this concern, for a number of reasons. History shows democracies generally do not initiate aggressive wars. This is done by dictatorships, kingships etc. in their persuit of glory and retention of their personal rule. In a democracy like the US, there are too many countervailing forces, as indeed the intense debate on the subject within the US demonstrates. And this is despite the fact that there is a very strong case for the US to attack Iraq and to take out Saddam Hussein.
And even if the US were to attack an undemocratic regime like Iran, I personally would shed no tears: the inhabitants of such countries are effectively dienfranchised, and their basic human rights to hold and express their opinions are already curbed, so at worst (which, realistically speaking, wont happen anyway) they will simply exchange rulers and at best (which is much more likely) they will be on the road to democracy and freedom. Look at how the US occupation of Japan freed that country from the dictatorship of the Japanese militarists and a god-like emperor into a modern, peace-loving and progressive nation. No Japanese seriously wishes to start worshipping their political rulers again.

#207 dm: "Now, do you want me to dig up those posts?"

That is what I have been asking you, isnt it? Go get them, then we can talk.

You are welcome to think what you like about Goldsteen.

tahmed32:

Not that fast, braather. It's easy to summarise your or anyone else's views, one does not have to dig through thousands of posts of anyone, including yours and mine, to know one's views on chowk - we all repeat our views all the time. For example, I do not have to go through hamidm's posts to know that he hates Islam but is still a proud and patriotic Pakistani, or that naqshbandi is in awe of the sufis.

That said, I did point out to your uncritical and repeated support of the US bombing attacks on Afghans and Iraqis. Now, do you want me to dig up those posts?

As regards Mr. Goldstein, he was not from the West and probably not even an Israeli, perhaps just an Indian pretending to be one. And of the posts that I recall, you never criticised the West in your rejoinders to him.

dm: So, you had the time to summarize my views, but are too busy to show where these views came from. And it is indeed presumptious on your part to expect me to spend the time proving my innocence to you!!

Accusations and misrepresentation of views without burdening oneself with substantiating them is your privilege. Not wasting my time with them is mine.

Have a nice day.

Re: # 179 Posted by hamidm2 on October 19, 2007 5:19:00 am

(...today america alone bears the white man's burden to civilize the barbaric world - specially the mahommedans .......).....Why?

And who would civilize the so-called civilized anglos?

#199 Posted by mohar11

who do you think did this blast on BB?

The same people who shot her brother alongwith six crack armed guards cleanly through the head and neck right there on the street from tree tops without anyone getting a chance to raise their weapons, and the Police SHO on picket duty who was a witness was found strangled the next morning in Police quarters with many sleeping alongside not noticing.

There are many sinister forces opposed to the Bhutto family in Pakistan. Blaming it on the Waziris is simplistic BS.

The alleged Baitullah-Mehsood threat has been denied by the original source quoted by daily times, Senator Saleh Shah, as utterly rubbish on television today. It never occurred.

tahmed32:

Your views are as important as that of urstruly or masadi or naqsh because, like them, you have a unique viewpoint on Islam and one much more like some of us non-muslims would like Islam to be.

As for my saying that you are uncritical of the west, I am too lazy to dig up old posts but, as I recall, you were always in favour of the US bombings of Iraq and Afghanistan, which were bound to create a lot of innocent people getting killed and defended the US as vigorously as you defend Islam. I especially recall our engagement before the US attacked Iraq and our disagreement as to the intent of the US in undertaking its Iraq mission.

Now, I am not on the chowk 24/7 and so may have missed any posts from you critical of the West. If so, please reproduce them for my benefit and I will correct myself.

I wasn't expecting an attack on Bezamir so soon. My guestimate was that of with in one month. The American strategy is quite clear after Negroponte took over the Pakistani affairs from Armitage. Negroponte has decades of experience of establishing death squads and creating civil wars around the globe specially in South America, Iraq, and Afhanistan. American strategy is to mobilize the civilians against civilians; in this case PPP militias will be established and pitted against the religious elements. A dejavu of Iraq where Shia militias and state apparatus was organized by Negroponte to crush sunni resistence, which they identified with AlQaida. Whether that policy worked or not does not concern Americans much because as long as someone else is getting massacred while keeping the American casualties low, "unna day lun tay thand eh" as the Punjabi proverb goes. It is anybody's guess that Bezamir has brought with her truck loads of dollars to establish PPP militias, which will be obviously trained by NaPak fouj. The civil war is written on the wall and so is the kidnappings, torture, and abu-ghraibs. NaPak fouj is already building 14 new jails (read torture and interrogation centers) for "extra-ordinary renditioned" citizens of Pakistan in Punjab alone at the cost of Rs. 3 Billion (with a "b"). The unholy alliance of NaPak fouj and liberal-fascists has turned into a hyperactive monkey that has a sharp open blade in his hand (as the urdu proverb goes).

I hope I am wrong but it does not seem likely. Regarding the attack on Bezamir I in fact had placed a bet with a friend of mine who proclaimed that minute the bezamir will step onto Pakistani soil, somehow Pakistani society will turn into paradise of democracy and tolerance. I told him what I've said above and told him that Bezamir and PPP will be attacked with in a month - and if it did not happen I will "mooter day naal apni muchchaN munn diyaN gaa", as punjabi proverb goes. I am not happy to see my moustaches saved today. My heart is sinking.

DM: Thanks for summarizing my views. I didnt realize they were so important.

On my challenging Indians coming to chowk painting all Pakistanis as criminals and terrorists and painting Islam as an evil religion - I am guilty as charged of showing them the mirror of the ugliness within India.

On your sayhing that I am an Uncritical Admirer of the West. Kindly provide me some evidence of what I have written to back your statement and I will be glad to consider that. Thanks in advance.

As for our applauding Masadi: he was claiming that I maintain certain views that he failed to back with anything I wrote. So, I assume you dont give any weight to truth vs lies as long as you like what is being said. Since masadi failed to back his claim, I suggest you being a more intelligent person, help substantiate Masadi's statement I referred to above.

btw, one of the few times we had "western" visitors, in the form of a couple of Israeli extremists who came to join the Indian posters in berating Pakistan - I was the only Pakistani poster as far as I recall to challenge them on what they wrote, and one of them (Goldsteen or something was his nick, and he had identified himself as a Tel Aviv lawyer) was mad enough to threaten me with the Tel Aviv underground!! So, how does this reconcile with your statement of my being an uncritical admirer of the west? And where were the echobooms of chowk when these israeli nuts were happily berating muslims and Pakistan?

Re: # 199

mohar,

... i should warn you .... zeemax also thinks the 9/11 attack on wtc was cia/jewish conspiracty

zee

who do you think did this blast on BB?

hamidm#161:

I think that there is more validity to masadi's accusation of our mutual friend tahmed as an uncritical admirer of the West than your putting him in the same category as the zees and urstrulys.

From the way I have understood tahmed during the last several years at chowk, he too hates the same things about Islam that you do. But unlike you, he loves his faith and is no less passionate about it than the likes of zee, urstruly or naqsh. So, he refuses to blame what you think is the root cause, the Book and the Prophet, and blames the Mullahs for everything that ails the islamic world as nothing ails Islam if I understand him correctly. I consider him to be truly eligible for the title of the Defender of the Faith and he will not tolerate any criticism of Muslims without at the same time mentioning that other religions, especially the pesky Hindus, are guilty of a lot worse.

Allah hu!!

Wow, these pure bloodied momeems are amazing !! They can blow themselves up and hundreds of other munafiqoons in order to ensure that purity of Islam is not diluted by a women aspiring to be the PM or that by that clean shaven man in army uniform.......

Allah hu!!!!

Actually these MMA mullahs are just a front for the Talibanis.

MMA actually is scared of women as Prime Minister of the pure Islami land of Pakistan. Imagine a woman leading all those pure bloodied momeens as Prime Minister when she should actually be at home working for her family in purdah.

Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khanin Feb 1999 "Jamhooria Islamia" interview says it more explicitely-

EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN IS STUPIDITY
Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom of women while some progressive Muslim intellectuals are insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres. What are Qazi's views on women?
A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) views on women are the exact views of Qazi Ahmed and the Jamat. Equality of men and women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do. Women are weak physically and mentally compared to men. Men have to take care of women all the time.
WOMEN MUST STAY HOME
Women should not have a life outside the family. Education can be provided to them, but not to compete with men in public.
NO VOTING RIGHTS FOR WOMEN UNDER SHARIA
Qazi had said once that when JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities. Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is it that it is never talked about openly in the public by the Jamaat? Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI did not make it a big issue since the women who currently have the voting rights may vote against JI in the elections if such a thing is said openly.
NON MUSLIMS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST PAY JIZYA
Q: That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?
A: Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi Ahmed , the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors."

That Mushy is not only strange, he appears to be totally retarded.

In the case of Lal Masjid, where there was no imminent threat to public security and citizens' lives, he moved in a deliberate, massive, costly, and murderous manner to kill hundreds.

In the case of Karachi, where there were open threats from Wanna Wanna about suicide bombing, this imbecile dictator provided no security for the unruly mob of welcoming paindoos.

...and this is the genius who was going to take Kargil away from the Injuns?

Baitullah Mehsud had already warned that suicide bombers would be waiting to "receive" her. And that was really another magnificient work of a "true muslim".

Re: # 191

zeemax,

..... your pir and murshid, liaqat baloch, has already been on tv, desperately trying to pin it mqm, but i think it is the jihadis because benazir is their biggest nightmare - a woman! .... why do you guys fear women so much? ... but that is another discussion altogether

.... anyway, i think this might be a good thing because now the line will be clearly drawn between the islamists and normal people ..... i hope ppp will be able to bury the hatchet and join hands with mqm, anp, america, the army, and the baluch nationalist parties to make sure al-lah doesn't take over the country with help from the mma, imran khan and the pml(q&n)....

#186 Posted by hamidm2

...... save your wrath for real jihadis like zeemax and urstruly ...

Why Thank You :)

But honestly, the Jihadis didn't do this one. They did the earlier one on the PPP reception counter in Islamabad, and all the others on army etc so far, but not this one. Look elsewhere as to who did it and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Shameless, wanton, and stupid loss of life in Karachi

I have been trying to write an article regarding violence, war, terrorism, suicide bombings, and other forms of humanity's attempt to prove Darwin right. Of course, my thoughts, like everyone else's, have been disrupted by this senseless and stupid slaughter in my beloved Karachi.

While it is easy to blame Bezamir Bhootni for her imbecile and slow procession from Quaid-e-Azam International to Quaid-e-Asam National, we need to step back, control our emotions, wipe off the tears, and make some objective observations.

Bezamir Bhootni
She should have selected prudence over pride. People in Wanna Wanna had threatened suicide attacks. Karachi is infested with adherents of all kinds of violent behavior. Instead of sneaking through the back door opened by Mushy, she should:

1. Show sincerity to her cause of democracy by challenging Mushy
2. Show some more sincerity by either wearing a hijab or going proudly with a naked head. This constant adjusting and readjusting of the dopatta is betraying her as a coward, an appeaser, and an opportunist - which she is.
3. Show some real courage in either accepting her family's role in corruption or come clean by refuting each and every charge of embezzlement against her and her husband.
4. Apologize for her violent suppression of Karachi's population and for using hurtful, racist, and bigoted terms for Urdu-speaking Mohajirs.

MQM
MQM cannot walk away from this one so easily. Helping Bezamir Bhootni sneak through the back door exposes MQM as Mushy's lackeys. MQM should have demanded that Bezamir renounce her racist, bigoted, and violent conduct while she was PM. Also, MQM leadership of Karachi displayed some sound logic by not allowing the corrupt CJ to make an ass out of himself on May 12. The same approach should have been taken in this case.

Mushy
The first job of any government, regardless of how legitimate or illegal, is to protect the lives, liberties, and properties of citizens. Mushy has failed miserably and needs to be removed - immediately. Also, lately he is coming across as a viceroy of Washington - not to mention being the lackey of a lame duck king.

Sindhis
Importing hundreds of thousands of illiterate and disorganized rural Sindhis and endangering their lives, along with the lives of police, common citizens, and spectators falls into the STUPID category. Mass hysteria of jubilation at the return of a corrupt landlord betrays these people as a backward, naive, and unsophisticated bunch.

Jihadists, Tally Ban, AlKaida, Wahaboobis
What can we say more about this plague? From Algeria to Kenya, from Tanzania to Turkey, from Bangladesh to Iraq, from Lebanon to Ajmer Sharif, and from Peshawar to Karachi to Lahore to Kashmir, to Mumbai to Delhi, these murderers are killing everyone - Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and others. For all their self-proclaimed love of Islam, these modern-day "Crusaders" are killing more Muslims than their 11th and 12th century predecessors. Someone needs to expose this vermin as a genuine threat to Islam and Muslims and wipe them out in one final act of righteous JIHAD.

Here is something to chew upon for all those who want to deny the Interview of Maulana Nabiullah Khan of Jamaat-e-Islamia.

He is really EXPLICIT in his statement that he wants Hindus as slaves of Pakistanis. Sure, after all that is what the Hadith-based-Sunnat requires with respect to the dhimmi hindus. That is what Moghuls did to hindu idolators and that is the most 'logical' thing for him to demand from a Pakistani muslim.

"AMAT WILL BRING SLAVERY BACK TO PAKISTAN Arabians own slaves. Though Allah says that the slaves should be treated in a nice manner, he did not advocate the abolition of slavery. If slavery is bad as considered in today's world, Allah certainly would have said that slavery is wrong. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) also said that the slaves should be treated in a good manner and the slaves should be released often. But if there is no slavery, how can anyone release slaves? Hence the re-introduction of slavery in Pakistan is one of the future plans of the Jamaat.
ALL CAPTURED HINDUS WILL BE MADE SLAVES
All the captured Hindu Indians and Srilankans will be made slaves to work for Pakistani Muslims. Every God-abiding Pakistani Muslim will get slaves once we conquer India. All the slaves who embrace Islam will be set free. Slavery is Islamic. Jamaat is the only political party, which does not voice any opposition to the slavery in Pakistan. We went around all over Arabia. We were surprised to know that there are some Hindus in Yemen. These ancient Yemeni Hindus are not Indians. In my opinion, these Hindus are traders from India in the ancient times. I was also surprised to know that they have a Shiva temple in Yemen. Qazi was very unhappy over this. When he talked to the Yemen leaders, he broached this subject. But the Yemeni leaders refused Qazi's suggestion of forced conversion of these people to Islam. I don't know why they refused. I think it may be due to the large population of Hindus from India who work in Yemen and Arabia. He disliked the current leadership of Arabia for this reason.
In his opinion, Arabia should not allow any non-Muslim into the holy lands of Arabia. Arabia should be 100% pure. A large number of Hindus in Arabia is corrupting the Arabians. Though they live as contractors, they have the potential to corrupt the minds of the Arabians.
HINDU TEMPLES POLLUTE MUSLIM LANDS
One such thing is the presence of Arabians in the Qatar Hindu temple. First the king allowed the Hindus to build a temple and church in the holy lands, thereby polluting the Holy Land. Second is that even a member of the Royal family visited that temple to inaugurate that temple. To the horror of Qazi, he had learnt that one of the powerful members of the Qatar Royal family is a devotee of a god called Aayappan. This news resolved Qazi to fight the force of the devil thousand fold.
Q: Such things happen in Pakistan today. I mean a friend of mine goes to a Hindu temple. Another friend goes to church meetings.
A: Yes. One of Qazi's relatives wanted to become a Hindu. He did not have a child for many years and it seems he had prayed to a Hindu God and got the child. Hence he felt thankful to that god and wanted to become a Hindu. Qazi got to know of this and called him and threatened him with dire consequences. That relative did not become a Hindu. But that incident made Qazi read more about apostasy.
PUNISHMENT FOR APOSTASY IS DEATH
Quran and Hadith clearly say the punishment for abandonment of Islam is death. Since Sharia is not the law in Pakistan, and the current Pakistani Constitution grants the right to change religion, it is legally correct to declare oneself as Hindu or Christian. But once the JI takes over the government, it will make Sharia as the Constitution. Then Pakistan will also legally execute any person who leaves Islam and joins Ahmaddiah, Christianity or Hinduism the same way Iran and Taliban treats its apostates. He also opined that the presence of the Hindu temples in Pakistan is the root cause of the problem and hence we want to destroy all the Hindu temples and Churches in Pakistan.
Q: This brings us into another area. Right now the Internet is becoming widespread. Even Saudi Arabia is connected with the outside world. Destroying the temples may be good, but how can we insulate the Pakistani and Muslim people against the corrupting knowledge totally?
A: JI had taken a principled stand on the matter of science and religion. Religion is far superior to science.
ALL THE WORLD�S KNOWLEDGE IS IN QURAN AND HADITHS
Whatever man needs to know is in the Quran and Hadiths. Knowing more will create problems like the Atom bomb and Television. "

Re: # 185

Hmmm, I thought someone said that only when the remaining
hinjew influence in Pakistan is removed, Pakistan will
be peaceful and prosperous...

bb is making a speech. you can see it live on www.jumptv.com and selecting aajTV. despite her past misdeeds, she has definitely risen to the occasion!!

Re: # 185

okhla99,

.... leave masadi alone - he is just a frustrated gasbag who will settle down as soon as he finds a real job and qualifies for a car loan from citibank ...... save your wrath for real jihadis like zeemax and urstruly

Utterly and completely respected Masadi,

Do you know that "they" are now coming after you in Pakistan? Mullah Omar, Laden and all of you foaming mouth Jihadis are soon going to be rounded up.

The rest of the world may consist of "dimwits" and "peons" (in your respected opinion, that is), but extremist folks like your badself are going to get wiped out. The writing is on the wall. Every one (literate) can read it. You cannot, for some reason. We all pray for the success of this enterprise (elimination of the extremists with US help).

Only then shall peace return to Pakistan.

masadi: Now is the time for you to try the good Dr. Shankar's prescription (i.e. to practice not blaming the US every time you have stomach gas).

I know it hurts, but it will do you good. You might even get a real job...

hamidm: not being perfect like you and masadi, i realize that i may write something that on reconsideration is incorrect and then i have no problem taking back what i said.

however, i dont need to back down from something i never said. i dont expect masadi to understand this simple point, but i have high hopes from you.

hamid writes "....... and you can always quote me on this - unlike tahmed, i will never back down from this statement ..... it happens to be the truth"

I appreciate your honesty unlike tahmed you're no hypocrite even though you're a master moron...

Now, don't think I am posting these because I want to prove something to tahmed, not at all. I know his mentality and i consider him a sos, where the latter s stands for swine. These posts were made for the benefit of the people on Chowk so they understand the enemy of the people, they understand those that talk big about Pakistan yet are encouraging our further slavery to the white man. Know them, know them well for come the day of atonement, you will see how the people deal with their kind...

Tahmed writes "This is the best you could come up with from the thousands of posts I have written on chowk: "The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence."

Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?"


Let me give the half brained retards a lesson in comprehension: What is the above quote telling you?

It is telling you a positive of the British Colonization of India, in the context of how the current Iraq war will similarly benefit Iraqis and that positive he says is the "democratic and secular tradition in India" (even though the Brits who had a master slave relation with the Indians and flooded the land with Christian missionaries- had nothing to do either with democracy or with secularism). Now he tells in the second sentence as "Proof" that his Indonesian friend was crying about the Dutch and not the Brits colonizing them because if the Brits did that Indonesia would have strong democratic roots as well.

Now, there are two points in this second part, first, he proclaims the superiority of the Brits as "masters" to the Dutch and second he proclaims the superiority of the Brits as "democracy originators" over the indigeneous systems which by the way it is presented is assumed to be "inferior" to democracy (attributed to the British).

There you have the nuts and bolts of his statement and even if you are a half brained moron, you can read the entire article and get the exact same message and theme...

Re: # 177

masadi,

.... if it is any consolation, i will confess that i truly believe that today america alone bears the white man's burden to civilize the barbaric world - specially the mahommedans .......

....... and you can always quote me on this - unlike tahmed, i will never back down from this statement ..... it happens to be the truth

hamid writes "if it hadn't been for colonization you would have been running around naked chasing your dinner ! ...... "

No, if it hadn't been for colonization Pakistanis wouldn't now be grovelling in their excrement suffering from countless infectious diseases that the "civilized" British had a long history of doing...

tahmed writes "The seeds for terrorism in Pakistan were sown by zia..."

No, they were sown by your masters the Americans whose peon Zia was and who was helped by the Americans and whose dictatorship was legitimized by their wheeling and dealing with him in fighting a proxy cold war in Afghanistan. That you are trying to hide all the negatives of the US elite you worship, including their rampant racism around the globe and at home, is by itself evidence that you support their barbarism i.e. neo-colonization around the globe not to mention your explicit support in that third rate article you wrote...

Re: # 174

masadi,

... you ingrate! ....... if it hadn't been for colonization you would have been running around naked chasing your dinner ! ......

Even though it is extremely clear from the posts of tahmed and the points of views he supports that he i) supports the British colonization of India and ii) Considers them and what he describes as the Anglo Saxon Ethos "superior" to that of our people, let me give him a chance to prove that I am the liar as he says.

Let him explicitly state here that he i) Condemns the colonization of India by the British and ii) that Anglo Saxon Ethos and the British tradition in our lands is absolutely not superior to anything indigeneous.

Let him state this explicitly, he will not because HE is the lying hypocrite

majumdar writes "Tahmed sahib seems to be reporting what his Indonesian friend had commented on. Does he say that he believes in what his friend says?"

You happen to be the half brained retard that I was referring to in the previous post. Read that comment in the context of the POSITIVES he is presenting of the tradition of US/UK colonization and the war on Iraq. Have you bothered to read the article where he is listing the positives of colonizaton and US/UK domination as he builds his case for the Iraq war.

Tahmed writes "Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?

You remain a liar. "

Only a half brain retard, after reading your article, will conclude otherwise. Your entire article as well as that quote where you present as PROOF the fact that your indonesian friend was bemoaning that the Dutch instead of the British colonized them otherwise they would be better, tells the reader that you supported the British colonization of India when you present the positives of that colonization. You are the liar and when caught with your pants down and exposed, you put your tail between your legs and whimper away like a person with extremely weak and shallow morals...

hamidm: I can understand your anger at the murder of over a hundred people in a peaceful crowd yesterday. But dont take it out on me or on Islam. I am being factual when I say that muslim societies in history have in fact been quite tolerant of minorities (e.g. after the fall of muslim rule in Spain, thousands of spanish jews chose to migrate to ottoman turkey rather than stay in spain or go to any other european country).

The seeds for terrorism in Pakistan were sown by zia, and the crop tenderly cared for by musharraf as part of his policy of presenting his dictatorship as being the only option to takeover by extremists. You are merely projecting your distaste for the "islamic culture" inflicted upon you as a child to ignore this simple fact and join hindu and christian religious fanatics in demonizing islam.

masadi: this is your statement that i had said was a lie and challenged you to cut and paste anything I had written to back it: People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

This is the best you could come up with from the thousands of posts I have written on chowk: "The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence."

Where above does it say above that I support the "support the colonization of our people "? And where does it say above that i consider the brits to be "superior"?

You remain a liar.

Masadi sahib,

(An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. )

Tahmed sahib seems to be reporting what his Indonesian friend had commented on. Does he say that he believes in what his friend says?

Regards

tahmed writes "You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim. "

I have done just that copy pasting many times and every time you, like a man of weak morals, put your tail between your legs and whimper away. The article that you wrote in support of the US invasion of Iraq, in that you sung the praises of British colonization- what you called the Anglo Saxon ethos in your support of colonization and the neo-colonization of the Americans, and you don't praise something compared to the other (in this case the local scene) unless you consider it superior. Now, I know that you possess the intellect of a five year old which goes to the extent of cheerleading for the US elite and colonization.

Here is an exact quote from your article:

QUOTE :c. India: The Jewel in the Crown of the British Empire. The UK (coalition partner of the US) left India a democratic country with secular principles. An Indonesian friend of mine bemoaned the fact that they were ruled by the wrong country and not by the UK, and thus failed to inherit strong democratic traditions after independence. END QUOTE ( from tahmed article "Open Letter to those Opposing the Iraq War, http://www.chowk.com/articles/6036)

Now we all know who the liar and hypocrite is, and it is you Tauheed Ahmed, peon of the West.

Read about one Nobel Laureate Watson's comments on black people's intelligence. Another Nobel Laureate William Shockley too had come to similar conclusions. Monkey chatting crowds in Bardoa, Karachi, Madrid and quite a few European cities. Senor Aragones, the coach of the Spanish team calling Thierry Henry black sh*t.

It seems that the followers of the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigoted freak are spread all over the globe.

Regards

Re: # 163

madani sahib,

......... i think it is time for ppp and mqm to put aside their differences and form a common front against the islamists which will soon include pml(n&q), mma and imran khan ..... they should also try to get anp and the baluch nationalist parties on board ....... the line between the islamists and the civilized people is being drawn and it will be a long and tough fight .......

Re: # 161

tahmed,

.... so i gather that you would be happy to pay a special tax if your kids were exempted from the draft ? .... how about not being able to run for president of the us ? .... at this rate i am sure you also wouldn't mind wearing a green tie to identify you as a muslim ?

....... when people like you push the notion that islam is perfect (or at least better than sliced bread) it echoes the extremist point of view ...... as long as muslims actually believe that their religion is perfect and that everyone else is bound for hell, we cannot have peace on earth ...... sometimes you remind me of dr israr ........

Re: # 164
This article is not related to pakistan seems more whitenations related. Pakistan has no problem with christians. But there is clsh of 60 years going between Indian cultural( Hindian) ethos and pakistani( Muslim) ethos that is civilisation clash relevaent to des.But this is not new clash. This problem they bring and discuss west and east clash but indian/ pakistani clash is real thing, christian west is just repeation of old things. This is reason my intelluctual and little some times angry friend Mr.Masadi is saying for some time, but most are wrining wrong things at wrong time and wrong place. bye

Re: # 130 Posted by HP on October 17, 2007 8:43:54 pm

[The brouhaha on immigration is clearly based on racism.] This is clearly not true. The Anglo-Saxon culture of North America is predominantly of puritan protestant Christian faith, whilst Mexican illegals have brought catholic religion into the US. That is where the immigration argument is.

Re: # 132 Thanks mr. Masadi for agreeing with me about western brainwashing done by british elites about color complexion in desh. I will request you to contribute all you can but just refrain from personal attacks or individuals quarrelling.Have good day.
Today is very sad day but luckly Mrs Bhutto is survived is only good thing. Terrorist I feel are some foreign interest funded is my feeling from some adjucent countries and I exclude Iran and China as these are brother countries. It can be work of A.Stan intelligence branch or some "RAW" dealing people.
I hope now forgivance is given to BB and NS and President for their corrouption and "tughi" things hope same things will be applied to MQM people who as wrongly subjected to fabricated charges. GOP should invite A.H. also from England to have level field to MQM.b No already PPP has started blaming MQM for some bad actions this is sad. As MQM allowed so she was able to land and her followeres allowed to gather. MQM wants to cooperaste with all for democracy other side they could have declared "karachi Decree" just stopped arrival of EX PM. Hope people understand geeriosity of MQM HQ. MQM is not recist as they quite dark than natives and oppressed by few supremists so oppressor can not be recist. MQM has muslims of indian origin from all languages but they use urdu for national integration. PLEASE MR.T do not try to blame MQM for recism in land.

Re: # 161

The first place for a 'moderate' muslim to begin healing the disease of mullah Islam is through acknowledge of the facts that hamidm talks about.
Muslims can become 'moderate' by using their wisdom but the mullah Islam can never and it has to be changed if 'moderate' muslims are to continue refering their identity to some 'Islam'.

hamidm: "dhimmis" were not slaves, nor even second class citizens for all practical purposes, in any of the vast muslim areas through the centuries.

tolkinin #157 "Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human."

Goals set a direction, a destination. One can say that to meet a goal is "beyond human" and discard the goal (as you seem to imply), or one can acknowledge that we humans are imperfect and stick to this goal. Thus, the US Constitution (where the preamble start with "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal") sets this goal quite explicitly. And 250 years ago when these words were written, the world - and the US - was even further away from this goal than today.
Since then, the US as a nation has moved ever closer to this goal (per my post below) through civil war, civil movements and legal action.

I agree with you that slavery did not start with Islam, and what I wrote earlier does not imply that it did by any means. What is true is that slavery lasted for centuries in muslim countries, and ended because of the efforts of abolitionists in the US and UK, and there was never any serious abolitionist movement within muslim countries. Indeed (as I mention below) there was strong opposition from the maulvis at the khalifa caving in to UK when he was pressured into ending slavery in the ottoman empire.

Re: # 158

tolkinin,

.... don't you think islam is the most racist ideology of all since it divides citizens into two distinct classes - muslims and dhimmis, where dhimmis can never have the same rights as the true believers ???? .........

Re: # 157
Rascism is rascism does not matter on what basis Dr.Watson bases it on Genetics ,Whites base it on colour Hindus base it on reincarnation resulting in tiers of Caste and Muslims base it on any or all of the other reasons.As Iqbal complained yun to syed bhi ho mirza bh Afghan bhi ....batao to ke musalman bhi ho.So there you have it Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human.

"and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. "
BTW Islam did not START slavery .It did make attempt stop it prophet did liberate first black slave to be so Hazrat Bilal much before your civil rights .Of course slavery continued from prior to Islam to after it just as gambling drunkedness fornication homosexuality prostitution so many despicable things among Slavery.If muslims continued to practice slavery just as the White masters importing blacks from Africa then Americans whites cannot claim be the first to abolish it b/c they had the most and worst of slavery .

#155 tolkinin: so you reject the central tenet of the caste system. congratulations. when the hundreds of millions of hindus who do believe in the caste system catch up with you, then you can start worrying about racism among muslims.

urstruly #147 you are factually incorrect in attributing the civil rights movement to the communist movement of the 20th century.

Hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers died fighting to end slavery in the US Civil War of 1860's - Even before the civil war, brave men like John Brown and his sons gave up their lives fighting to free the slaves. And John Brown inspired the Union soldiers ("John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on" was a popular rallying song in the civil war). Others made slavery an issue in non-violent ways that also had an impact (e.g. the anti-slavery convention in UK in the 1850s).

btw, not that it matters anymore given that you are above such minor issues - you make another self-contradictory statement in your post: While (incorrectly, as pointed out above) attempting to pass the credit for the end of slavery to the "proletariat revolution", you claim that " Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. ". In doing so, you forge that the communists were avowed atheists!! (but like I said, dont let little things like reason and facts trouble you).

and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. It was also legal in the ottoman empire (which spanned the middle east and turkey) until the Brits pressured them in the early 19th century to declare it illegal. Mullahs at that time loudly cried against this end of slavery as being kow-towing of the khalifa to the brits. But again, dont let this simple fact come in the way of your standing on a moral pedestal and declaring all non-mullahs as being without morality.

Re: # 154

and i dont believe in reincarnation to make some one DESERVE there servitude .

tolkinin #151 a hindu who believes in the caste system is the worst kind of racist - because he adds insult to injury by claiming that brahmins are superior because of their moral greatness in their previous incarnation.

masadi #149 You are lying when you write that People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim.

Re: # 151

Good points. And also undeniable. Now we have to ask us the question, whether this racism and bigotry is benefiting us or is it hurting us. Is the reason for the misery and indignity that we suffer everyday is that that we have forgotten what our Emancipator (pbuh) taught us. Mark these immortal words that constitute the manifest destiny for humanity:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves."

........Last Sermon of Holy Prophet (pbuh)

Masadi, Ahmedmadani, Aslam, UrsTruly ..Dont say there is no rAscism among Pakistanis or Arab countries .
You are all staunch muslims & muslims are the worst rascist.Pathans vs Punjabis Mohajirs Vs Sindhi West Pakistani Vs east Pakistani (now BDEsh)
practice what you preach .The glamorous world of Pak T.V & movie Personalities despite making living of Pakistani ,and just like WASP or Brahmins consider you all inferior just ask Meera & Veenezas of Pakistan

Speaking of impotent rage, I would suggest that you pick up any book on civil rights movement by any white author and it will tell you the infiltration of communists into the ranks of both Dr. king and Malik Shahbaz. See how they interpret the consequences of bus boycott.

tahmed writes "After 1964, it has taken just one generation for blacks to become part of the mainstream (perhaps even less time than the italians etc. of the 19th century) "

Blacks have not become part of the mainstream. When you have a group that has double the poverty level, unemployment level, and still shows very high level of segregation indices with most so called "middle class" blacks living on the periphery of the ghetto with equal access still not allowed to them even in housing let alone managerial or high level jobs (one name here or there wont do, just like Obama and Colin Powell the most "white" among the "blacks" in places of power wont do). These numbers are those that are given by the US government itself and except for some peons of the West from Pakistan nobody not even the establishment denies that racism exists in the US. Regarding group and institutional racism, that does not exist in a vaccum, it is processed and gets translated into personal racism and just because those at the top do not explicity show it does not mean they do not espouse it, those destroying countries are those at the top not the trailer trash who shows Arjun like hate which harms very few even though it is distasteful. Why tahmed would like to mask it by throwing out the Irish who were assimilated into mainstream US society because of skin color and not any "history" as he would like you to believe (that is the difference between the petty jealousies of asian the "imitation racism" that these fools refer to and the real racism of the West, based on skin color unforseen in evil consequence in the history of the world, need I remind you of the Atlantic Slave Trade and the genocide of the native Americans?).

People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior", being a rank racist- he thinks they civilized us, and he supported the Iraq war and will now most probably cheerlead for the Iran war once it starts, is it any wonder that he is denying racism existing in the US when there is unanimous agreement among social scientists (except ass wipes like Danish Desouza- who explains away race based on class when CLASS is caused by race and not vice versa), as well as establishment experts except for the O'reilly and Fox News types...

And by the way when Hamid says "if you want to be treated like a white man start acting like one", is true in the US and this by itself proves the existance of racism and racial exclusivity. If you want to be treated with human dignity try imitating the only race considered "human" in the US so you might brush off some of their humanity, otherwise the Pigs (police) will butcher you like dogs and they do on a daily basis...

Re: # 147

urstruly,

....like a true muslim you are so full of impotent rage at being left behind in every field of human endevour, that you choose to blame the west for your miseries ...... this is the type of thinking that makes you the 'nigger' ...... if you want to be treated like a 'white' man, start acting like one .... stop sulking and take responsibility for your failures ...... and stop accepting government cheese - it will help your self esteem ...