Can Religious Leaders Redeem the Future of the World?

Re: # 144
#144 Posted by ferozk

I am afraid don’t remember that dialogue but on the whole I liked the movie.

regards

aslam: granted that the blacks were segregated long after the irish, italians, poles, germans etc. were accepted as full human beings. this was the result of historical circumstances (slavery, followed by segregationist "jim crow" state and local laws - and then chipped away with federal action starting with the emancipation proclamation, continuing with desegregation in the military followed by the 1964 civil rights act). After 1964, it has taken just one generation for blacks to become part of the mainstream (perhaps even less time than the italians etc. of the 19th century) - from "black power" of the 1960's to blacks as mainstream: Black politicians seeking to gain office by playing the "black card" of victimization are history, and mainstream politicians who happen to be black (e.g. Obama, Fenty) now play the same field (i.e. international issues, personal charisma) as white politicians.

Similarly, black voters in the US have moved away from voting on the basis of ethnicity - more black voters support Hillary Clinton than anyone else.

So - while many Pakistanis think that the US is still in the 1950's in terms of the status of blacks, in fact the picture has vastly changed and keeps changing rapidly.

The acceptance of blacks as "equal humans" at least at its face value is a blessing of Proletariat movements of last century that originated in Russia and spread across the world like wildfire. The by product or unintended consequences of those movements, which had great appeal among the oppressed around the globe, was the inevitable abolition of aparthied across the western world. The "preservation of market economy" argument to support the equal rights is vehemently put forward to this day. Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. Making "economic sense" and hence 'self preservation" are the only reason that something is done. The Western Capitalist world is working over time now to convert Muslims into the new niggers because now that is what making more "economic sense".

Re: # 147

urstruly,

....like a true muslim you are so full of impotent rage at being left behind in every field of human endevour, that you choose to blame the west for your miseries ...... this is the type of thinking that makes you the 'nigger' ...... if you want to be treated like a 'white' man, start acting like one .... stop sulking and take responsibility for your failures ...... and stop accepting government cheese - it will help your self esteem ...

tahmed writes "After 1964, it has taken just one generation for blacks to become part of the mainstream (perhaps even less time than the italians etc. of the 19th century) "

Blacks have not become part of the mainstream. When you have a group that has double the poverty level, unemployment level, and still shows very high level of segregation indices with most so called "middle class" blacks living on the periphery of the ghetto with equal access still not allowed to them even in housing let alone managerial or high level jobs (one name here or there wont do, just like Obama and Colin Powell the most "white" among the "blacks" in places of power wont do). These numbers are those that are given by the US government itself and except for some peons of the West from Pakistan nobody not even the establishment denies that racism exists in the US. Regarding group and institutional racism, that does not exist in a vaccum, it is processed and gets translated into personal racism and just because those at the top do not explicity show it does not mean they do not espouse it, those destroying countries are those at the top not the trailer trash who shows Arjun like hate which harms very few even though it is distasteful. Why tahmed would like to mask it by throwing out the Irish who were assimilated into mainstream US society because of skin color and not any "history" as he would like you to believe (that is the difference between the petty jealousies of asian the "imitation racism" that these fools refer to and the real racism of the West, based on skin color unforseen in evil consequence in the history of the world, need I remind you of the Atlantic Slave Trade and the genocide of the native Americans?).

People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior", being a rank racist- he thinks they civilized us, and he supported the Iraq war and will now most probably cheerlead for the Iran war once it starts, is it any wonder that he is denying racism existing in the US when there is unanimous agreement among social scientists (except ass wipes like Danish Desouza- who explains away race based on class when CLASS is caused by race and not vice versa), as well as establishment experts except for the O'reilly and Fox News types...

And by the way when Hamid says "if you want to be treated like a white man start acting like one", is true in the US and this by itself proves the existance of racism and racial exclusivity. If you want to be treated with human dignity try imitating the only race considered "human" in the US so you might brush off some of their humanity, otherwise the Pigs (police) will butcher you like dogs and they do on a daily basis...

Speaking of impotent rage, I would suggest that you pick up any book on civil rights movement by any white author and it will tell you the infiltration of communists into the ranks of both Dr. king and Malik Shahbaz. See how they interpret the consequences of bus boycott.

Masadi, Ahmedmadani, Aslam, UrsTruly ..Dont say there is no rAscism among Pakistanis or Arab countries .
You are all staunch muslims & muslims are the worst rascist.Pathans vs Punjabis Mohajirs Vs Sindhi West Pakistani Vs east Pakistani (now BDEsh)
practice what you preach .The glamorous world of Pak T.V & movie Personalities despite making living of Pakistani ,and just like WASP or Brahmins consider you all inferior just ask Meera & Veenezas of Pakistan

Re: # 151

Good points. And also undeniable. Now we have to ask us the question, whether this racism and bigotry is benefiting us or is it hurting us. Is the reason for the misery and indignity that we suffer everyday is that that we have forgotten what our Emancipator (pbuh) taught us. Mark these immortal words that constitute the manifest destiny for humanity:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves."

........Last Sermon of Holy Prophet (pbuh)

masadi #149 You are lying when you write that People like tahmed support the colonization of our people by those he considers "superior"

You can refute my above charge by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written in the past 7 years on chowk to support your claim.

tolkinin #151 a hindu who believes in the caste system is the worst kind of racist - because he adds insult to injury by claiming that brahmins are superior because of their moral greatness in their previous incarnation.

Re: # 154

and i dont believe in reincarnation to make some one DESERVE there servitude .

urstruly #147 you are factually incorrect in attributing the civil rights movement to the communist movement of the 20th century.

Hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers died fighting to end slavery in the US Civil War of 1860's - Even before the civil war, brave men like John Brown and his sons gave up their lives fighting to free the slaves. And John Brown inspired the Union soldiers ("John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on" was a popular rallying song in the civil war). Others made slavery an issue in non-violent ways that also had an impact (e.g. the anti-slavery convention in UK in the 1850s).

btw, not that it matters anymore given that you are above such minor issues - you make another self-contradictory statement in your post: While (incorrectly, as pointed out above) attempting to pass the credit for the end of slavery to the "proletariat revolution", you claim that " Like I said before, atheists and a system based on atheism i.e. Secularism cannot have moral values. ". In doing so, you forge that the communists were avowed atheists!! (but like I said, dont let little things like reason and facts trouble you).

and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. It was also legal in the ottoman empire (which spanned the middle east and turkey) until the Brits pressured them in the early 19th century to declare it illegal. Mullahs at that time loudly cried against this end of slavery as being kow-towing of the khalifa to the brits. But again, dont let this simple fact come in the way of your standing on a moral pedestal and declaring all non-mullahs as being without morality.

#155 tolkinin: so you reject the central tenet of the caste system. congratulations. when the hundreds of millions of hindus who do believe in the caste system catch up with you, then you can start worrying about racism among muslims.

Re: # 157
Rascism is rascism does not matter on what basis Dr.Watson bases it on Genetics ,Whites base it on colour Hindus base it on reincarnation resulting in tiers of Caste and Muslims base it on any or all of the other reasons.As Iqbal complained yun to syed bhi ho mirza bh Afghan bhi ....batao to ke musalman bhi ho.So there you have it Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human.

"and btw, slavery was legal in the heart of the muslim world, Saudi Arabia, till 1962. "
BTW Islam did not START slavery .It did make attempt stop it prophet did liberate first black slave to be so Hazrat Bilal much before your civil rights .Of course slavery continued from prior to Islam to after it just as gambling drunkedness fornication homosexuality prostitution so many despicable things among Slavery.If muslims continued to practice slavery just as the White masters importing blacks from Africa then Americans whites cannot claim be the first to abolish it b/c they had the most and worst of slavery .

Re: # 158

tolkinin,

.... don't you think islam is the most racist ideology of all since it divides citizens into two distinct classes - muslims and dhimmis, where dhimmis can never have the same rights as the true believers ???? .........

tolkinin #157 "Although Islams greatest appeal and selling point is All mens are created equal is it in reality.Its a high goals to expect beyond human."

Goals set a direction, a destination. One can say that to meet a goal is "beyond human" and discard the goal (as you seem to imply), or one can acknowledge that we humans are imperfect and stick to this goal. Thus, the US Constitution (where the preamble start with "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal") sets this goal quite explicitly. And 250 years ago when these words were written, the world - and the US - was even further away from this goal than today.
Since then, the US as a nation has moved ever closer to this goal (per my post below) through civil war, civil movements and legal action.

I agree with you that slavery did not start with Islam, and what I wrote earlier does not imply that it did by any means. What is true is that slavery lasted for centuries in muslim countries, and ended because of the efforts of abolitionists in the US and UK, and there was never any serious abolitionist movement within muslim countries. Indeed (as I mention below) there was strong opposition from the maulvis at the khalifa caving in to UK when he was pressured into ending slavery in the ottoman empire.