Where's the news?

Dear NFP

would you call BB's "grand" reception as one off reaction also!!!
I hope that u see this post!!!

Re: # 81

jayp,

there are three viable options or replies to your line of argument:

(1) Not even in yaa dreams. No brainer
(2) If it can happen to Pakistan then why not to India? After all it too comprises of different ethnic, religious demographics. Maybe, but recent track record and International support can postpone that event for the next ten to twenty years. Having said that, one global economic recession and the differences will re-emerge.
(3) Your dream comes true and Pakistan is split on ethnic lines, quite possible and the worst nightmare for those worried about the Islamo fascist nuclear weapons. Iam sure those nuclear weapons or capabilities will be the first to be taken care of by international community, what happens after that? Ethnic cleansing, genocide, sectarian murders, millions of refugees with nowhere to run will land up in India and Iran. Armed militias will rule their small enclaves and will resort to smuggling and extortion. In short, the entire region will be destabilized leading to increased defence and police expenditures by the Indian Govt that is counterproductive to a growing region faced with uncontrollable terrorist networks.

Take your pick, Iam not betting on any of the above.

rf 79,

We managed 7 million pakistanis before, and we will manage bettwr this time as long as the problem is solved, there is no terrorist problenm in pakistan, pakistan is the problem and abolition of teh country is the only solution.

NWFP tp afghanistan, kashmir to india and sindh a new country...how does that sound.

#76 Posted by shankar on October 19, 2007 5:37:26 pm


Jihadis are fanatics & suicidal. If they get their hands on nuclear bombs you dont think they will use it?


you greatly underestimate the willingness of the paki army and ruling class to hold on to their ruling position in pureland..

if the jihadis launch an attack, india is sure to retaliate and retaliate big..if it does, all the land the paki army top brass is getting for growing "vegetables" and for "poultry" will be useless..they'll do whatever they need to do to keep that from happening..

don't believe me? take a look at pureland today...allah's army is using F-16s and artillery against their own citizens..other than captain clueless, who is always right in hindsight, who could have predicted that?

besides.. think about kargil and the islamic terrorism in kashmir..that could have led to a full war too..and that was done by the supposedly non-suicidal and non-fanatical paki army...so I don't see the difference..

Re: # 78

jayp sahib,

My dear, what u have simply stated the obvious there is nothing new in these facts. We all know how the writ of Govt has failed, but this aint nuthin yet. Imagine, if this is just the begining what do u think it will be like when the entrie system breakdowns? Then u guys will be looking for the UN to send in some sort of peacekeeping force because the refugee problem from Sindh or Punjab will be unbearable, violent groups will be looking for safe houses across the border, since there will be no borders smuggling of essential items will become rampant etc etc etc. Bhai, its not that difficult to understand, only if u keep a open mind.

rf 54

"Failure is not an option for Pakistanis or Indians as a failed state with 160million souls will spell diseaster for this entire region."

Wake up my friend, failed state of pakistan is not something for tomorrow, it is right there.
Take note of teh following

..pak army is negotiating with the tribals for teh release of 300 soldiers. they have their own territory and have invited bbc reporters. Pak army does not dare to go to those areas because they are afraid, the army cannot fight. Wziristan is no more part of pakistan. Territoria integrity is gone, the tribals have their own laws...

..now take the heart of pakistan, islamabad..the lal mosque guys for several months ran their own social policy by attacking teh near by music shops etc. Only when they captured teh chionese brother operators did teh army move in. There is no law enforcement agency in pakistan, in islambad.

..Let us not talk about crime in karachi..

Pakistan is a failed stste, right now and no one can chaneg that.. change will come only after the bearded generals take over, that will be in ten years time, teh latest

shankar #: "If the Pakistani economy is able to withstand any punitive action from the US, why is it in their interest to gyrate their hips?"

....good question....

....the answer is quite straightforward......you will be surprised to realize how much influence the usa has in pakistani politics....i think the usa itself doesn't realize it.....pakistani politics is controlled by army, america and allah.....you have to have two of these on your side.....

......musharraf has gone against, "allah" - metaphorically speaking - with his joining the usa and with enlightened moderation.......he has the army under his control....and he, now, has to have america with him.....

.......he has no constitutional base, nor electoral base.....so he has to fully commit to usa......

.....benazir has an electoral base, but still needs two of the three......she has realized that army is too well established, in pakistani politics.......so she has decided to join hands with it......

......she also knows that pakistanis are very pro-allah and anti-usa........but with the current situation in the world, she cannot push the pro-allah agenda......so she has decided to be fully pro-usa........

........this is why both are gyrating their hips to the usa......and i think will gyrate successfully, at least in the short term.........

.......however, long term, i think allah (i.e. maulvis) will win out......at their core, ppp is a feudal party, with total disregard for the common man, who is basically their hari or disciple......bb is massively corrupt.......

musharraf was ok for three years, but the longer ther army stays in power, the more corrupt it becomes.......musharraf has outstayed his welcome.....

......bb and musharraf's aim is only to stay in power......all other items are secondary......

arjun# 73

Jihadis are fanatics & suicidal. If they get their hands on nuclear bombs you dont think they will use it?

Romair,
I dont dispute that Pakistan's unstinted support has caused a lot of problems for Pakistan.But then, why is mushy and bb still willing to, as you say, gyrate their hips?

If the Pakistani economy is able to withstand any punitive action from the US, why is it in their interest to gyrate their hips?

shankar #71: ....i saw, first hand, pakistan unflinching support to the usa, in the first afghan war.....i was in the military, and every pakistani rep and soldier was a vip...we were attending free courses in usa (out of which i got one, also).....zia ul haq - a person who had nothing in common with america - was a hero in the usa.....i was in a room with american soldiers, when they gave a standing ovation to the mujahideen, after seeing a video of ahmed shah masood......

.......pakistan went overboard supporting the usa, and ended up holding the bag.......it never had klashnikovs, drugs, refugees, extremism etc. before afghan war 1.......after the war, it had all these......as the usa packed up, along with the rest of the world.......

.......i can make a bet the exact same thing will happen now......pakistan's economy is not going to sink without us loans........pakistan's economy runs on remmittances from expat pakistanis (and now on investments from arab firms)...the loans from world bank etc. have already been rescheduled......and usa is not going to sanction pakistan.......i am not saying pakistan should declare usa the great satan and get into a war with it.......

......i am only saying pakistan should be neutral......let the americans fight the taliban on their own, and vice versa.....

......germany and holland's population are putting huge pressure on their govt. to withdraw from aghanistan......they have, barely, lost 15 people combined, and have not had a single explosion in their countries...and they are members of nato, yet they want out......canadians want out, and they have barely lost double digit soldiers.......spain exited out of iraq after one explosion in spain.....

.......what is the world is pakistan doing fighting usa's war, even after losing 500-750 sodiers and having one explosion after another in its borders.....

......if the usa had even five explosions, within its borders, i am sure they would be doing a political deal with taliban and not bombing the place......

......there is absolutely no way for pakistan (or usa or anyone else) to win this war through military force.....look at the mess the usa is in, in iraq and afghanistan, despite gigantic military efforts........how in the world is pakistan going to win it through force, even if it is a legitimate war?........

what will happen is, as follows:.....pakistan will continue to lose soldiers, as cannon fodder, since the nato countries are unwilling to lose their own....after all, it is first and foremost nato forces responsibility in stopping the taliban from crossing into pakistan.......however they don't want to lose any soldiers, so the usa wants pakistan to do this dirty job......

.......pakistani leadership will be pressurised by usa to bomb, "suspected" taliban hideouts in pakistan's tribal areas.....musharraf and bb, with gyrate their hips, and do the bombing.......such bombings and raids, may kill the actual target, but will result in far more innocent civilian deaths......thereby further radicalizing the local population......the local population will not be able to target the usa, as it is too far away......however, they can easily target pakistan.......they will employ al-qaeda's endless supply of suicide bombers to bomb islamabad etc........

.......this is exactly what is happening in iraq......on a dialy to hourly basis........it is starting to happen in pakistan at a weekly to monthly basis......a market close to my house in islamabad has been bombed......there was an outright battle in a mosque close to my house in islamabad....cherat, which is the home of pakistan's special services and is near a hill station, next to nowhere - making it one of the most secure sites in pakistan had its officers mess bombed.......anyone can be hit anywhere by a suicide bomber......

...........it's about time, pakistan did what spain, holland, germany (and now uk) and eventually canada are and will do......tell usa to fight its own war......pakistan isn't even in nato!, yet it is so loyal........

........pakistan should also tell the waziristanis that they cannot declare war on their own, on the usa, without the permission of the state of pakistan......if they still want to do it, then pakistan should tell them, they are on their own, if the usa attacks them.........they should not come crying to pakistan govt........

after that, let the americans and the taliban fight it out, without getting involved.......do keep in mind that prior to the usa's gwot in afghanistan, pakistan had never had a suicide bombing, the tribals had never attacked pakistan and were quite pro-pakistan, and the only terrorism in pakistan was of the shia-sunni tiny extremist parties, which was limited to religious sites, with zero public support.........not to mention that even the mainstream, non-violent religious political parties were never able to win more than five seats in the national assembly......after the usa's bombings, religious parties formed govts. in two of pakistan's four provinces....

now it is slowly turning into a free for all........and will get worst, if pakistan doesn't get out of this useless war that the usa has gotten stuck in......had afghanistan been bordering usa, with al-qaeda bombing downtown washington weekly, the usa would have had a political solution within a few days, with the taliban.......any sensible country knows that it is not worth it to have your cities be the target of suicide bombers..........

#72 Posted by shankar on October 19, 2007 10:36:59 am

a non-failed pureland has repeatedly threatened to drop nukes on india and a non-failed pureland has repeatedly used islamic terrorists, the ones who killed 100+ pakis yesterday, against India..

so please explain to me in detail how it would be any different..all I keep hearing is "it'll be bad..trust us"..

arjun

""why is a stable pureland necessary to india's progress anymore than a stable nepal or bangladesh is? "

India hasnt had a war with Nepal & Bangladesh. If, God forbid, Pakistan becomes a failed state with nuclear weapons--the whole world, esp India would be taking a dump.

Romair #56
-Isnt there are reason that the major players seeking power (mushy, bb & ns) are assuring the US of unstinted support for the "war against terrorism"?

If Pakistan refuses to cooperate, it could spell economic disaster for Pakistan. Iran's economy is barely afloat because of the oil revenue. Pakistan doesnt have that luxury.Sanctions will hurt badly.

There is also a paranoid fear that India will jump in & take advantage of the situation.

If you feel the majority of Pakistanis are against the war in Waziristan, it will be reflected in the next general elections. It will certainly be interesting (to say the least) if MMA wins.

My post is for both the sides and I have used the word "we" and questioned the contribution of both the countries in promoting religous tolerance. Your accusation merely reinforces my earlier post. All I am trying to point out is that religous tolerance needs to be promoted and if we can not show mutual respect on a supposedly progressive site then whats the point?
But I would definately agree with you that Pakistan does need to travel beyond "Pakistan ka Matlab Kya, La ilhaha Allah illah"? I am not some one who belongs to right wing and therefore I am all for promoting a moderate Pakistan with religous freedom and respect for all.
But in my opinion India also needs to make further progress from its own brand of religous intolerance. Lets not make it a ego problem, progress is needed from both sides. That is all- no hard feelings

Re: # 68
[...we need to still travel a long distance...]

True... How far have you travelled from "Pakistan ka Matlab Kya, La ilhaha Allah illah"?

I thought one of the major objectives of this website is to provide a forum where people from entire South Asia can have concrete dialogue in a frank yet still tolerant manner. Religous tolerance is one of the foremost tenants of idealism- after all the title says "unflinching idealism since 1997".
Regretably most of the dialogue degenrates into hateful expressions from both Pakistani and Indian sides.
What has been the role and actual achivement of both countries in ensuring religous and ethinic tolerace within themselves.
These hateful exchanges on a supposedly progressve site committed to "unflinching idealism" is perhaps a jolting reminder that we need to still travel a long distance.

Let me give pakis the credit too: pakiland has the potential to become a successful muslim-manority state - the only successful muslim-majority in the region... but it has to be re-designed and re-formatted for that to happen...

All said and done - pakis are descendants of Grandpa Gopinath... even with rampant bedouinism, they still retain their hindu-laced culture - they still have a decent civil society and population of hard-working, fairly intelligent abduls... All that is needed is a pacifist ruling system with no military adventurism... certain autonmous units in the New Pakiland may even choose to have sharia but as long as military capabilities of the new state are controlled - it will work just fine...

If you think about it - it works for everybody... China will be happy too... and it will have a stabilizing effect on afganistan, the other failed state...

Jinnah's dream still may come true...

What india needs is a 1971 redux... we should have finished the job at that time - but we didn't - partly because international situation wasn't really conducive... a failed pakiland may provide yet another such opportunity...

The ideal result for all concerned, pakis themselves included, is a federalized pakiland with autonomous provinces and a controlled defence force geared for only internal stability - with no external offensive goals or capabilities... somewhat like japan after WW2. This can happen only when the current pakiland reaches a failed state threshold...

yes, failed states have their own dynamics and can be unpredictable - but I think in case of pakistan, this implosion can be a controlled implosion...

Despite everything - pakistan is no Sudan - it still has a core intact and an functioning establishment and an elite group of rulers which has too much lose... the paki rulers are always aligned with US and they know that side of the bread is buttered... so when this failed state situation comes down to a particular threshold - they will make a deal...

So India just needs to sit back and watch... may even help the process discreetly to take it to the threshold...

Re: # 62

I think another advantage of failing/struggling Pakistan
and Bangladesh is, it gives less incentives for future
Muslims separatists within India to separate.
If Pakistan and Bangladesh are not failing and struggling,
it will increase the apetite of prospective Muslims
separatists to demand separation in future.
Kashmiris muslims will have less enthusiasm and incentives
to separate and go on their own.
Not that India should do anything to aggrevate the failure
and struggle, both the states are doing fine job on
their own.

#61 Posted by rf786 on October 19, 2007 6:19:20 am

you pakis keep saying a stable pakiland is in india's interest but you never back it up. why is a stable pureland necessary to india's progress anymore than a stable nepal or bangladesh is?

rf786

Just look history of last 60 years - a "strong" pakistan has always sought to be severely antagonistic to india and it's interests... in contrast - now that pakiland is weakened in last few years - things have worked pretty well from india's perspective...

So a failed pakiland is not a problem for us... in fact - it may provide a good opportunity to eliminate a pesky problem once and for all... it would bring entire world into focus on this - this islamic problem that we have been warning everybody for decades now... There may finally be a concentrated international effort to fix this once and for all...

Strong muslim states in the periphery are never in india's interest... inevitably - they would turn into islamic fundamentalism and seek to harm us just because we are kafirs... Look at Bdesh...

Re: # 60

Arjun4

There is no lack of jaundiced views, your comments are a good example of fixed, narrow minded prejuidices.

Failed states have their own dynamics that have no direction but severe repercussions which can ripple throughout the region. India is enjoying rapid economic growth which requires political stability and that can be compromised when a neighboring country such as Pakistan breakdowns.

#54 Posted by rf786 on October 19, 2007 3:12:39 am


Pakistan has undergone through a ideological shift in the last thirty years as rightwing idealogues have imposed their vision at the expense of moderation and democracy.


imposed-schimposed..the paki junta was fine with the jihadis when pakis thought the jihadis were winning afghanistan for pureland and "bleeding" india in kashmir. pre 9/11, you could hardly see a voice in pureland going against the taliban. indeed, the majority of pakis wrote letters to the west asking the west to recognize the taliban's control over afghanistan as a fait accompli.


Failure is not an option for Pakistanis or Indians as a failed state with 160million souls will spell diseaster for this entire region.


why exactly is it a problem for india? india's been doing fine for the past 6 years while pureland has been circling down the jihadi toilet.

#56 Posted by bulleya on October 19, 2007 4:27:40 am


........this is not pakistan's war..



you created the jihadis...this is absolutely your fight. the people who died yesterday died because your government follows the policy of supporting islamic terrorism for it's strategic goals, be it strategic depth in afghanistan or core issue in kashmir...

just last week I pointed out a post of yours where you were telling us India should hand over kashmir or pakiland would sic the jihadis on india and keel bleeding it.

#56 by bulleya

........this is not pakistan's war......pakistan needs to stay out of it......let the usa and taliban fight it out......and pakistan leaders need to stop trying to get brownie points, by announcing their suppport for one side or the other.......

Weren't you the one who boasted that IT sucked as a career and you would love to don the military gear again and lead US troops into Afghanistan? What brownie points were you looking for then?

Re: # 56
I wish that sold out phony BB cared that much for us to take that middling and politically apt stance. She is desperate to come to power and sees that pleasing US is the only way out.

...it seems like the way to get to power in pakistan is to declare full support for the war on extremism........even if involves death and destruction in pakistan.........

.........pakistani leaders need to start listening to their own populations and not to the interests of the usa.......

.....as long as pakistan continues to participate actively in this war between the usa and taliban, i can only see destruction and blasts in pakistan....the moment pakistan carries out any action in waziristan, a few days later a counter-action is taken out in some pakistani city........

........this is not pakistan's war......pakistan needs to stay out of it......let the usa and taliban fight it out......and pakistan leaders need to stop trying to get brownie points, by announcing their suppport for one side or the other.......there was obviously no need for the extremists to carry out such an explosion.....at the same time, there was no need to benazir to gain brownie points with the usa, by publicly announcing that she would allow usa to operate inside pakistan militarily.......

she has gained a stronger political presence due to such an announcement, but it has polarized the society even more......a better response would have been that she is against extremism, and also against the usa's efforts to militarize the issue........a political solution is the best solution..........

I agree to this title of failed state and also the risk poised by rising right wing militancy. However our deeds have a lot to do with Pakistan army as well as USA who was desperate in 1980s to defeat communism. All that religous jihadi culture was deliberately cultivated under Zia regime using US fundings.
The Russians left but the apparatus which was in line with the already prevalent conservative atmosphere became active in generating religous militancy. Its appeal was enhanced a lot by international developments and US misdeeds.

Today the same US is trying to uproot this apparatus. It was realtively easy to set as it was in line with the prevalent moods of that time. However it is difficult to simply uproot it as it has strenghtened and forceful dismantling is not going to be effective and in fact counterproductive.

I agree moderate forces need to come up. However i disagree with bringing BB as an acceptable moderate force. She is a sold out phony woman who is merely heading a feudal infested party built upon Bhutto cult. Moreover there is a strong perception that she is being brought to serve largely right wing US interests and ambitions. This alone will add fuel to the fire.

What is needed in pakistan is a genuine moderate force with centre to left political ideology. May be PPP with out BB. I wish it was possible!! Unfortunately and really it is extreme ill luck that PPP is built upon Bhutto cult.

Re: # 53

jayp,

Nostradamus or blackmailer? Such predictions are threats of violence targeting those who oppose their viewpoints. And yes, Pakistan is paying for its misdeeds in Afghanistan and Kashmir, but that is not the complete picture. Pakistan has undergone through a ideological shift in the last thirty years as rightwing idealogues have imposed their vision at the expense of moderation and democracy. Pakistan needs to restore some sense of stability quickly and eliminate this scourge of extremism. Failure is not an option for Pakistanis or Indians as a failed state with 160million souls will spell diseaster for this entire region.

News from karachi

Zeemax, the new nostradamus

You were correct when you said that Pakistan will become Iraq, and in fact pakistan has dome one better than iraq in the statistics.

In this jihadi made tragedy, if the educated pakistanis can take a few seconds and reflect on the following, the death of so many would not be in vain.

1. Even now ISI is pushing the jihadis to kashmir, on the notion that kashmir jihad is different from afghan jihad. Is it not true that jihadis are general purpose killers, they seek death and they will do it if the mullah directs them. Stop all jihad, even the kashmir jihad.

2. You all maintain that jihadism is due to poverty. Then you say that India is a poor country when compared to pakistan. Then why are so many jihadis in pakistan. There are so many countries poorer than pakistan why no jihadis. There is something in the religion that makes the muslims of pakistan jihadic killers, in pakistan as well as in london. Thnk of what is that factor unique about pakistan. Why is the paki strain of islam teh most virulent so far identified.

Nadeem,

sorry to borrow your board but out of the sadness
and from the CHOWK archives (1998)...


A BEGGAR FROM KARACHI

Once like the current multitudes in Chappals

These legs also walked your dusty streets

As this was home, but now all but lost in memory

Clifton Beach, Saddar and the market no

Empress would much care to bless.



Paan stains or is it the crimson of blood?

Of the many young and now old, pierced hate

The metal of unholy bullets in still bodies

Widows, orphans and the ravages of

Jinns let loose in the bazaars of fearful lives.



Peace once walked through this city but

Like Mir, sons died here for many perceived sins

And the loss has now reached the healer Hakim who

By educating children was pronounced guilty of doing good

Sentenced to death at age 78 to leave us horrified.



Many names not as famous come to mind too but

Space limits and the pain of this madness erases

Man dreams burnt in the hot Tandoors of hate

Bigotry, selfishness and the smoke of street heroin

All are now experiencing the futility of addiction.



Very easy it is to blame the outsiders for oppression

But amongst ourselves oozes a little truth

The City of Lights calls for an era that once was

When the people of Karachi lived around the clock

And were not forced to plead for peace

Like this beggar from the past.


Ras H. Siddiqui

vrv #50 please dont keep answering my simple question with some other question. but it is obvious that you find it hard to say a simple yes or no, and that is your choice. bye.

TA,

That's a well craftd defence.

Defending the consistency of Urstruly makes me anti-Pakistani?

vrv: you ignored the point i made about consistency between words and actions. you also refused to answer a simple question by giving an irrelevant analogy of "since when u stopped beating ur wife". If you had asked me the same question on India, I would have given you an answer.
contrary to what you say, hamidm is also quite consistent in what he says - he appreciates the country he has chosen to live in (i.e. the US), is for the market system, he does not think highly of either islam or hinduism, is cynical of both Pakistanis and Indians. I dont agree with some of what he says, but he is as consistent in his views as anyone. which, like i said, is more than can be said for those who claim to have all sorts of grievances with the west and yet have chosen to raise their families in the west rather than in taliban afghanistan (which provided the "islamic society" they claim to stand for).

Dont worry about mollifying me, since questioning what I consider to be an incorrect assertion does not mean that I am being merely upset. So instead of mollifying me, you should consider what I am saying and address that rather than merely ignore the points I made.

than mollify u i/o than mollify

Ahmed,

It's like somebody asking 'since when u stopped beating ur wife'. That way I consider u/hamid as Indian-hater and Pakistani-hater & Islam-hater (depending on the situation).

Btw, I better be a Pakistan-hater in ur eyes than mollify.

Though I dont agree with most the views of Urstruly and his fratenrity I can agree that they speak in one voice. They never waver abt their views whereas uou/Hamid change views depending on the situation or interactor.

#45 vrv: i think hamidm is just as consistent in his views as urstruly. what is more, hamidm's views are consistent with his actions (i.e. he appreciates the US way of life, and has moved here) which cannot be said for urstruly.

So what you say is not the truth. And you have ignored my question - am i wrong in saying you are a pakistan-hater.

TAhmed,

Why am I a Pak-hating Indian? coz I tell the truth abt Urstruly being consistent in his views and Hamid's not?

If that's the case, I already said thanks.

#43 vrv: am i wrong?

TAhmed,

Thanks for the title 'Pakistan-hating Indian'.

vrv: you are not the first pakistan-hating indian to applaud urstruly. i wonder why. :-)

Hamid,

Urstruly is consistent in his views and ppl wud be sure of his views on any given issue whereas u jump in and out of issues depending how ur mood swings.

The only issue is that these ppl wud not match u post2post and make fool of themselves.

Thanks that u indirectly condemned these bombings.

Re: # 39

urstruly,

.... i guess you and others of your ilk - zeemax, abu sufwan, echo and masadi - are happy that the soldiers of al-lah tried to strike a blow for your cause ..... i hope you are watching the carnage on geo to satisfy your lust for the blood of those who do not share your twisted world view ...... i am sure you have a good erection

Re: # 38

I think our misery will eventually force us to either change or become dinosaurs and perish.

Urstruly,

Ur points are good but who bells the cat?

Ras,

The links are informative but I cant get over the image of Surrey Palace she bought (& sold later) and the number of antiques smuggled outta Pakistan.

Lets wait and see how u guys overcome the blues.

Re: # 36

GT, like I said, I quoted only one verse. There are many snd according to Asool (method of interpretation) the verses cannot be contradictory.

Please check out the website I posted to understand the concept of State in Islam, if you are interested.

#33 Posted by Urstruly:

OK the other reference makes more sense. The following is closer to waht you say.

(7:3) "(O Jamaa'atul Mu'mineen) Follow only that which has been revealed to you by your Rabb and do not follow any friends and protectors other than Him. (The subservience to Divine Laws and not of any human being is the real freedom), but very few keep this reality in mind."

#33 Posted by Urstruly:

I do not want to argue for the sake of arguement. The passage can be read as:

"In the pursuit of pomp and glitter, do not ..........."

It does not say what to do or not to do, for example, "in the pursuit of mere survival .....". Other verses may, this verse does not. If you have the time and inclination, do point out other verses. No need to quote just the references. Thanks.

PPP always had street power and if today if it is able to bring people to streets owing to euphoria generated by the return of their exile leader and that too with facilitation of state whats the big deal!
Mr Paracha's consistent insistence on down playing lawyers movement and calling it anal urban middle class morality is banal. I would again pose a simple question. How many people came to streets when Bhutto was hanged and yet today they have " jammed" the streets prompting our psuedo intellectual journalist to call the lawyers movement a reflection of right wing urban middle class mentality.
First of all, it should be understood that a well organized party with sufficient funds and logistical apparatus can bring people on the streets particularly when it has sufficient time to prepare and when it knows that state will not stop people from coming.
I would have still agreed with Mr Paracha's stance that rural poor do not give a crap and therefore have come to welcome their beloved leader, had PPP actually reflected the misery of the rural poor and during the past twenty years had raised issues pertaining to rural poor. During the past tweny years PPP has inducted feudals and party in the rural areas is basically dominated by those feudal Lords. Mr Paracha unfortunately does not belong to the rural area and I think has never even been to rural area to actually understand about what issues rural people give a crap about.
If the real issues are poverty equality and feudalism, would Mr Paracha tell me that when did the feudal dominated PPP raise them in the past twenty years. After all his apparent explanation behind today's successful showing of PPP is that people side with those who voice the real issues rather than media manufactured anal urban middle class issues.

I wont disagree that ordinary people loved ZAB and he was despite shortcomings a great leader. Ordinary people have consistently voted for PPP as a token of respect to the great leader not because PPP has been voicing real issues which touch the core of millions. Todays showing which had full facilitation of state also can be better interperated in that light rather than through this psuedo leftist as well as marxist interpretation for which Mr Paracha is famous for.

Re: # 31

I do not understand your understanding. The superlative "Do not..." does not leave a choice as you suggest. We can only say something is voluntary when there is a choice.

More over, "Our remembrance" is not necessarily "Our laws". Furthermore, (18:29), i.e. the following verse, urges caution and leaves consequences to be decided by Allah:

(18:29) And proclaim: 'This is the truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe; and let him who will, disbelieve. We have prepared a Fire for the wrong-doers whose billowing folds encompass them. If they ask for water, they will be served with a drink like dregs of oil that will scaled their faces. How dreadful a drink, and how evil an abode!

Am I seeing this right?

Urstruly:

You should be a bit careful. Here is the verse (a la the Koran you recommended me):

"(18:28) keep yourself content whit those who call upon their Lord, morning and evening, seeking His pleasure, and do not let your eyes pass beyond them. Do you seek the pomp and glitter of the world? Do not follow him whose heart We have caused to be heedless of Our remembrance, and who follows his desires, and whose attitude is of excess."

The above verse has to do with "voluntarily" following, I think. It does not necessarily say what to do when one is "compelled" to follow.

Re: # 28

Ans# 1:

Chapter 18 verse 28 is onley one of the many, but I am quoting only one here:

""Do not obey any such person whose heart has become neglectful to Our laws, one who follows his own desires and whose case has gone beyond all bounds"

In order to understand the mechanism of an Islamic polity I would recommend that you check the following website; starting with Soveriegnity:

http://www.parvez-video.com/state_affairs.asp

Ans# 2;

Those who have firm belief in Allah and his Prophet 9pbuh) unanimously agree on this edict, and why an Islamic polity is necessary. The munafiques, the illiterate ( you know in which sense) and the people with mentality of servitude and low self-esteem show doubt.

An estimate of 2 lakh PPP supporters have jammed the roads and streets of Karachi. Common people, most of them. The media seems stunned. Just heard Mr. Paracha speak to a reporter on Aaj TV. He echoed Najam Sethi’s comments given to Geo TV. Both believe the media was concentrating on issues made up of “middle-class morality” … Mr. Paracha even went on to call it “anal urban middle class morality.” And both said this show of street power and mass strength proves that the common Pakistani and those living in rural areas don’t give a crap about issues like the NRO and the lawyers movement. Paracha seemed pretty pleased with the way things have turned out for BB.
So, first supporting Mushy and then defending MQM, NFP now seems to be moving towards PPP, even though, he was always a known supporter of the party, if not BB.

#26 Posted by Urstruly

"....the only leadership that should be acceprtable to a Muslim would be that that would lead them through the path of Qura'n and Sunnah. A Muslim has no obligation to respect or accept an authority that compels them to go astray from this path."

1. Where is this authenticated in the Koran?

2. Is the above universally accepted by: (a) Islamic scholars; (b) pious Muslims?

Regards.

I will get back to VRV tonight.

In the mean time...

Some IMPORTANT Links

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/Apr06/21/04.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/Oct06/06/01.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2004/oct04/08/02.html


Plus

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2007/July07/13/03.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2007/Jan07/17/02.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2004/Jan04/16/07.html

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/July06/07/12.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2005/Dec05/23/07.HTM

Re: # 25

Your contention is absolutely indisputable. For Pakistan in particular and elsewhere in the world in general, democracy means that the candidate of your liking should come into power and if he or she doesn't the it is not democracy.

In principle it is the curse of the system (democratic) itself. It is flawed on two fundamental premises. One, it only alowes voting population to chose what they perceive to be lesser of the two evils. But in fact it is just an ideal state; in reality voters chose "their own" candidate regardless of whether he is lesser evil or more evil. The US elections in the recent years are an example, where people have voted for their "cause" regardless of whether candidate is corrupt and incompetent or not.

The second flawed premise is that that system allowes "leadership" to emerge reagardless of whether the leadership is representative or not. For example, throughout all democracies around the globe only 25-45% of the voting population participate in the democractic process, which means either a vast majority of popopulation has no stake in the affairs of state or they do not trust the process. In either case the emrgent 'leadership" by no stretch of imagination can be called a "representative" leadership. The recent elections in a Canadian province are an eye opener where only 17% of voting population cast vote. Can the resultant leadership be called "representative"?


Islam on the other hand sets two ground rules for the leadership:

1. In Chapter 2 of Qura'n Allah has given examples of Bani Israel (Jews) many times where He sought oath or a promise from the people that they would never ever choose or elect a corrupt or morally bankrupt leadrship. Defying that they always did and hence suffered the misery of 2000 years.

2. The second ground rule, which is authenticated by both Qura'n and Hadith is that the only leadership that should be acceprtable to a Muslim would be that that would lead them through the path of Qura'n and Sunnah. A Muslim has no obligation to respect or accept an authority that compels them to go astray from this path.

The Pakistani nation defies both ground rules knowingly, deliberately, and arrogantly and hence suffers the misery of the past 60 years. And just as you predicted this misery will continue for decades and generations to come, until and unless we sart adhering to the ground rules.

Ras,

U r not a stereotype Pakistani. Do u REALLY believe the arrival of Benazir is the arrival of democracy? Why somebody getting elected other than BB OR NS be called tthe arrival of democracy?

When Mushy got elected as Prez by the lameduck Assemblies, whilst his uniform is on, ur democracy was buried. AND with such an overlooming control of the Army & ISI on the state of Pakistan, u can never expect a genuine democracy in Pakistan.

Can anybody dispute this?

A warm welcome home to Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto.

It has been a long time but she has not been forgotten.

The most important issues to address are Roti (Rupees 4,

Terrorism and the Return of Democracy.....

Who knows what the future brings but let us think positive.

I fully agree with Zakkk here. The major problem with NFP is his obsession with the religious right. He is deeply fearful that these powers may get into power and therefore he keeps on downplaying the lawyers’ movement as well as anything which opposes Musharraf regime. Although I do not endorse religious right but NFP should stop treating Musharraf as liberalism's last hope. His support for Musharraf manifests itself in various ways such as ridiculing the issue of uniform, satire about the significance of emergency and any criticism on president as Media gimmicks to attain more ratings. It seems despite passing of so many years his obsession with corporates is still intact.

According to NFP, these are not real issues and therefore any movement built upon on these will fizzle out.

I would partly agree that real issues are poverty, security and economic development. But current issues are also important as creation of effective checks and balances, reduction of power of army as well as president are necessary to create apparatus which would ensure that all the future governments do not abuse their powers and are geared towards concentrating their energy towards development. I know it won’t happen overnight but it will be an important building block.

Moreover if the movements have to be based on real issues to be effective and sustainable, let me ask one question here to Mr Paracha. Kindly let me know which movement has taken place in the past 3 decades, which aimed at addressing the “real” issues and which was effective also. And moreover if the criterion of truth is mass support than why he continues to claim that he is marxist leninist as frankly Pakistan does not seem to be moving towards a Proletariat revolution. When his own convictions are concerned, he measures truth through his own rationale and discards the fact that a vast majority of people do not accept those as valid. However regarding issues in which he is taking a contrary opinion, he is quick to cite lack of public support as a proof that the opinion is rubbish.

I have heard about market rates to arrange for people in India. I understand the rate is anywhere between Rs.1000-10000 with meals.

I guess the same may be true in pakistan as politics everywhere is the same. Anybody have this kind of info on going rates for masses in Pakistan?

I am sorry to say that you just don't know what the 60s movement or the 70s harampai was.There was no movement by Bhutto. it was all a joke until east Pakistan got in to the act. Lefty students used to take out ten kids and there used to be more policemen around them. After the demo on Regal chowk, student leaders used to run to the newspaper offices to beg the editors to run the news with their names in that. Some big name student leaders came up that way. Including Mairaj and that lefty doctor who is still underground ( I cannot remember his name now). At that time newspapers were the only source to build political name recognition.

Pakistan is going thru a situation which is not good enough for the short attention span, raised on sound bites generation. You appear to be one of them.

Paracha finally fails to deliver. For a media person to not figure out what is happening out there is unfathomable.
Here is my take paracha, run with it.

Pakistani politics is like a soap opera with numerous turns, twists and sub plot with major theme changes. Seriously, you should have figured it very quickly. You got the Imran Khan part right but missed the rest. If you watch Indian TV, you will spot that it is an extension of Bollywood. All big shows are related to movies in one way or other because movies, songs, and emotional themes sell and Indian TV shows build reputation on what is already successful. Same is the case in the US but the US tv has built its own identity too.

In Pakistan, there is no other kind of entertainment for TV to build around and create a market for itself. They finally figured it out that politics in Pakistan is high ticket selling item and now they are selling it, building the audience and their franchises based on Politics. All Pakistani popular channels are primarily political channels. They have more news, more talk shows and some very aggressive hosts. Today I watched Faeza Dawood for the first time and I can see that there was no other way for this girl to make a name for herself, Even though she is clearly talented. Look at Dr. Savera. This is one ideal host for any show but she too is forced to talk politics.

You talked about Imran but you missed the clown of the this political drama Shaikh Rashid and what about the mullah who try and look very sharp but have no idea what they are talking about.

Buddy pay attention to these little things. The media needs the movement. Media needs drama queen Benazir and the media needs melodramatic kidnapping of Nawaz and I promise you they will keep this thing going or they will lose money. I can foresee that soon media will offer political parties money too for elections and the media would find more Shaikh Rashids to fill up the air time during the next few months.

I wish Main Tufail was still the Amir of Jammat Islami, He was the ultimate clown. He would have beaten Shaikh Rashid and Imran Khan both in TV rating.

Re: # 18 Today history is happening and all worlds eyes on arrival of Mrs. Bhutto.
Almost 90 years ago similar thing happened in Russia. Mr. Vladimar Lenin arrived from europe after exile of several years to lead russian revolution. He was self exiled homself to save himself from Tsarist military regime. Then he changed and affected russia and world.
Today after 90 years same scene is repeating only place will be Karachi than Petrograd.
Lots of people will come out to greet around million people just to be part of history. Just like lenin Mrs Bhutto is going to change Pakistan for ever for good and bad only history will decide. I hope is for betterment of country. So all people should welcome daughter of Quaid E Awam and wish her best luck and hope for best and prepare for worst is prudent welcome way.

Comparing the mass movement politics of the 1970's and 1960's today with present day activism is comparing apples and oranges. The old concepts of static borders, deep ideological divides and a monolithic state no longer apply.

A modern day movement may be smaller but that does not mean one should diminish it's effect. The state apparatus is also far weaker and requires less force to provoke a collapse. This applies universally rather than specific to Pakistan.

With reference to Imran Khan, the writer seems to have a deep personal dislike for the man, so whenever I read his name mentoned by NFP I expect the following bits to be quite negative.

Very interesting take, good read.

Well I'd rather throw a simple plain common sense , masses did'nt come out against Presidential Elections because it was Ramadaan! and they still wont come out against benazir because they are all off on eid holidays.

elephant-

For all those who are hailing BB's return remind me of those goons who would never learn. This so called land of pure is full of people who would always be blind in support of their leader in spite of whatever has been done by her so far.

In any democratic country the party members question their leaders and pile up pressure on the leaders if they compromise on principles. This pressure acts like a feedback and governs the actions of the party leaders. Sadly this is not the case in Pakistan. PPP remains a party formed around Bhutto cult and workers keep on worshipping the daughter of their dead leader in spite of whatever her role has been so far.

If the cases against her are fraudulent, then why insist on withdrawing them. If Pakstani courts are "kangroo" courts then surely foreign courts are going to acquit our genuine leader. Every one knows she insisted far more on withdrawal of those cases.

Tomorrow I know Karachi will turn into "mini Pakistan" and compared to 1986, this time her return is also facilitated by USA as well as the military strongman.

Well done my fellow jiyalas, you truly deserve her and keep this blind support up so that there is no pressure on her when she comes back into power. And keep on calling all those who are daring to question her majesty's actions as armchair political theorists who are unable to comprehend the long term wisdom behind BB's shrewed moves.

PPP of 2000s is so different from that of late 60s. It is full of feudal lords and pirs. All the idealist element is long gone. However BB has a very powerful weapon in her hand- the political legacy of her far far better father whom people worshipped and support of jiyalas who think that she truly emulates her father who despite shortcomings was far better than her.

And yes she is shrewed, as she is able to understand that goons will always support her no matter what. Thats is why she has skillfully done a shady deal. And yet despite the fact that even the most banal individuals outside PPP know that her only objective was to get those strong cases withdrawn, she has people writing in Daily times about how well she understands the problems of our country.

Re: # 13


http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\10\17\story_17-10-2007_pg 3_5

NFP,

As always, great article.

People have no idea who and what these lawyers represent, ask their clientele and then it will be no surprise why this concocted movement fizzled out.

PPP is making some progress, lets see how this story unravels.

Once again, many thanks for sharing your ideas.

For Khuda Bux (or KB) & Friends who have gone from

the USA to greet Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto in Karachi....


"Jab Tak Sooraj Chand Rahay Ga

Bhutto Tera Naam Rahay Ga"


NFP, you once again have gone against the grain

and shared much wisdom. Write on!

Nadeem,
Thanks for this write-up. It is one of the better articles in chowk that I have read for a long time. While people like me have been hailing the role of the media, you have correctly pointed out the other angle of 'the great tamasha'.

A pro-democracy movement cannot be sustained by the "professional classes" and the media alone. Nor can it be sustained by students alone, as we saw during the Tiananmen Square movement, the Naxalbari movement and those in Pakistan (of which I do not know much about). But a 'movement' for democracy is a prolonged affair. A great case study is that of Britain. But let us not go into it right now. Suffice to say that at some point in time the unwashed have to get involved. And they will get involved only when they get to see a CREDIBLE direct connection between democracy and "roti". That day will come in Pakistan. However, before signing off I would like to mention a crollary to what you have written and it has to deal with the media and street protest.

Let me start by agreeing that the press is not out there to usher in "democracy". It's primary objective is ratings and profit. Nevertheless, in doing so they do play an important role in "protests" and it depends on "chance". Consider, for the moment, that people in Pakistan really want to take to the streets to protest. However, a large section would go out to protest if and only if they see sufficient numbers on the street (i.e. the probability of success is high). Another section is indifferent between protesting and not protesting. A few go out and protest. The crucial section is the second group. Indifference leads to random turn-out. AND THE MEDIA IS NECESSARY TO INFORM THE THIRD GROUP ABOUT THE ACTUAL TURNOUT. This is what happened in Berlin, the random turn-out was high. Unfortunately, in Pakistan the turnout was low. But it could have gone in either direction. But mobilization should continue. And who knows the next time around you may be lucky. In that case do not be surprised. The number of less-apathetic people would not have necessarily increased. It would just mean that you had a better draw from amongst the second group.

I hope another call for a protest is given before the dictator is sworn in again. No problem if it fails again whatever be the spin.

Sorry for the long post.

#2 Posted by Love2love
Its just a lot of billboards and shit not all that many people. But if I ever have to hear that horrible jeeay bhutta song again I'm gonna kill somebody.

Maybe the people have really wisen Up.

...they did came out on the CJ issue, and paid for 44 Lives in Karachi, because that for them was a geneuine Issue

...All Other Hulla Boo, and Lok Tamashas, don't interest them any more.

...Elections just round the corner, it would be really interesting to see, How really much have they wisened UP.

News for pakistanis
From jang of today

Fourth — relief for absconders. The NRO Ordinance has a soft corner for absconders. It states that any ‘order or judgment passed by a NAB court in absentia against an accused is void ab initio and shall not be acted upon.’ Therefore, if a holder of public office or any person has managed to evade the legal process and a NAB court proceeded against him and convicted him in absentia, such conviction will be void ab initio — as if it does not exist. Those who surrendered themselves to the due process of the law will find no recompense in the ordinance.

From dawn opinion piece of today
////////////////////////

P.S. For those who weren’t around at the time of Zia’s monstrous martial law, a microphone used to be attached to the rack upon which the person being lashed was spread-eagled so that the assemblage could hear amplified sounds of the man screaming in agony as whip after whip landed on his body.

///////////////////////

those good old days are not far of for the islamic republic of pakistan

Then what happened to the judicial activism that ylh and tahmed were expecting. Take it from me, there can be no movement towards a civil society as we know it in pakistan, it will be an islamic republic as enshrined in the pak constitution and it will evolve from now onwards steadily. The glory days of Zia with the public beheading and lashing is only a few years away.

see my next post from dawn

Yes , I agree with skeptical, it's only the Government who created the good and bad picture.
First in the history of pakistan , absconder and criminals are allowed to come and loot again .Peoples are not interested in any figure.

Most of the people go to political gatherings and receptions for "tamasha" or for fun only ( like the same tamasha which is again being repeated on the arrival of the saviour Benazir)..

People of Pakistan are not organized..privileged ruling class and establishment has divided them to the core...there is no middle class to bring or sustain any revolution...majority of masses stays busy in dollar a day survival struggle and those who have some ability to do some thing for the country..their teeth are sunk in newly found chicken roasts...so night will get even more darker..and plunderers will find it more easy to plunder in the dark hours of night...and this engineered chaos will entangle confused masses further in its web..

Mr Paracha is right in saying that "thundering clouds" of TV shows don't have ability to do any thing practical or sincere for the country..

Re: # 2
Let me make one thing clear here. Political workers coming in to greet their leader returning from exile and that too with full facilitation of state does not mean a political movement with roots in masses. If Musharraf regime wants to stop this gathering you will see no thousands of people in the streets of Karachi. Mind you Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto was the most popular leader and he was hanged. Tell me how many people came out in protest and yet they flocked to the airport in millions when his daughter came back in 1986. The difference was that Junejo regime allowed PPP to gather and welcome their leader. Now again since the daughter of the East has done a deal with Musharraf regime, her arrival has full state support. If you are a Karachite just see all those banners etc. There is some Nora Kushti kind of opposition from CM Sindh but thats it.

I am not a pro Nawaz Sharif person but the fact is that thousands of his workers were arrested before his arrival and entire area around airport was sealed. No gathering was allowed to take place at all and Mr Sharif himself was forced on another plane. If Musharraf regime wants to stop PPP workers from going to airport, let me assure you it would be able to. After all Zia regime prevented people from coimng out when Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto was hanged and what could be more significant than that.


bbrought in through state sponsorship

#1 "People now do not come to streets the way they used to."

You should check out the number of people lining up to greet Benazir in Karachi, Skep. :) The media was asuming otherwise, and had predicted a big reception for Nawaz Sharif instead and which never came.

The movement by the lawyers was a movement for their own institution and at its peak it was powerful enough to force the introduction of PEMRA ordinance as well as what happened on 12th May. Just because you do not agree with the objectives does not mean that it was a mere media construct. And whats wrong with the objectives of the movement. At the fundamental level it aims at making juduiciary independent organ. Seperation of organs and creation of effective checks and balances is one of the foremost tenanats of liberalism.

Mere media constructs do not lead to incidences like 12th May and forceful stoppage of media coverage. Yes you can argue that the movement has lost its steam or that after 20th July's verdict people have not come to the street but this is basically because lawyers started to overstep their boundaries and started raising questions about issues that belonged to political realm. The problem with certain journalists like you is that you have started to equate Musharraf with liberalism in Pakistan and any threat to his regime is treated as a threat to liberalism in Pakistan. The major reason behind this is perhaps because the entire opposition to Musharraf constitutes of religous right and you fear that his ouster may bring these forces in Pakistan.

When that movement was at its peak you were calling it a mere media show and now you are calling it failed media construct without any roots in the masses. It was to begin with not a mass movement, it was a movement by the lawyers mainly to discipline their own institution. As it gathered pace, it started to have some support from political parties as well. The movement still has a strong support of lawyers though you can argue that it does not have a visible support of masses. But for that matter during the past twenty years, what movement has mass support. People now do not come to streets the way they used to.