Where's the news?

Ras,

U r not a stereotype Pakistani. Do u REALLY believe the arrival of Benazir is the arrival of democracy? Why somebody getting elected other than BB OR NS be called tthe arrival of democracy?

When Mushy got elected as Prez by the lameduck Assemblies, whilst his uniform is on, ur democracy was buried. AND with such an overlooming control of the Army & ISI on the state of Pakistan, u can never expect a genuine democracy in Pakistan.

Can anybody dispute this?

Re: # 25

Your contention is absolutely indisputable. For Pakistan in particular and elsewhere in the world in general, democracy means that the candidate of your liking should come into power and if he or she doesn't the it is not democracy.

In principle it is the curse of the system (democratic) itself. It is flawed on two fundamental premises. One, it only alowes voting population to chose what they perceive to be lesser of the two evils. But in fact it is just an ideal state; in reality voters chose "their own" candidate regardless of whether he is lesser evil or more evil. The US elections in the recent years are an example, where people have voted for their "cause" regardless of whether candidate is corrupt and incompetent or not.

The second flawed premise is that that system allowes "leadership" to emerge reagardless of whether the leadership is representative or not. For example, throughout all democracies around the globe only 25-45% of the voting population participate in the democractic process, which means either a vast majority of popopulation has no stake in the affairs of state or they do not trust the process. In either case the emrgent 'leadership" by no stretch of imagination can be called a "representative" leadership. The recent elections in a Canadian province are an eye opener where only 17% of voting population cast vote. Can the resultant leadership be called "representative"?


Islam on the other hand sets two ground rules for the leadership:

1. In Chapter 2 of Qura'n Allah has given examples of Bani Israel (Jews) many times where He sought oath or a promise from the people that they would never ever choose or elect a corrupt or morally bankrupt leadrship. Defying that they always did and hence suffered the misery of 2000 years.

2. The second ground rule, which is authenticated by both Qura'n and Hadith is that the only leadership that should be acceprtable to a Muslim would be that that would lead them through the path of Qura'n and Sunnah. A Muslim has no obligation to respect or accept an authority that compels them to go astray from this path.

The Pakistani nation defies both ground rules knowingly, deliberately, and arrogantly and hence suffers the misery of the past 60 years. And just as you predicted this misery will continue for decades and generations to come, until and unless we sart adhering to the ground rules.

I will get back to VRV tonight.

In the mean time...

Some IMPORTANT Links

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/Apr06/21/04.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/Oct06/06/01.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2004/oct04/08/02.html


Plus

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2007/July07/13/03.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2007/Jan07/17/02.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2004/Jan04/16/07.html

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/July06/07/12.HTM

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2005/Dec05/23/07.HTM

#26 Posted by Urstruly

"....the only leadership that should be acceprtable to a Muslim would be that that would lead them through the path of Qura'n and Sunnah. A Muslim has no obligation to respect or accept an authority that compels them to go astray from this path."

1. Where is this authenticated in the Koran?

2. Is the above universally accepted by: (a) Islamic scholars; (b) pious Muslims?

Regards.

An estimate of 2 lakh PPP supporters have jammed the roads and streets of Karachi. Common people, most of them. The media seems stunned. Just heard Mr. Paracha speak to a reporter on Aaj TV. He echoed Najam Sethi’s comments given to Geo TV. Both believe the media was concentrating on issues made up of “middle-class morality” … Mr. Paracha even went on to call it “anal urban middle class morality.” And both said this show of street power and mass strength proves that the common Pakistani and those living in rural areas don’t give a crap about issues like the NRO and the lawyers movement. Paracha seemed pretty pleased with the way things have turned out for BB.
So, first supporting Mushy and then defending MQM, NFP now seems to be moving towards PPP, even though, he was always a known supporter of the party, if not BB.

Re: # 28

Ans# 1:

Chapter 18 verse 28 is onley one of the many, but I am quoting only one here:

""Do not obey any such person whose heart has become neglectful to Our laws, one who follows his own desires and whose case has gone beyond all bounds"

In order to understand the mechanism of an Islamic polity I would recommend that you check the following website; starting with Soveriegnity:

http://www.parvez-video.com/state_affairs.asp

Ans# 2;

Those who have firm belief in Allah and his Prophet 9pbuh) unanimously agree on this edict, and why an Islamic polity is necessary. The munafiques, the illiterate ( you know in which sense) and the people with mentality of servitude and low self-esteem show doubt.

Urstruly:

You should be a bit careful. Here is the verse (a la the Koran you recommended me):

"(18:28) keep yourself content whit those who call upon their Lord, morning and evening, seeking His pleasure, and do not let your eyes pass beyond them. Do you seek the pomp and glitter of the world? Do not follow him whose heart We have caused to be heedless of Our remembrance, and who follows his desires, and whose attitude is of excess."

The above verse has to do with "voluntarily" following, I think. It does not necessarily say what to do when one is "compelled" to follow.

More over, "Our remembrance" is not necessarily "Our laws". Furthermore, (18:29), i.e. the following verse, urges caution and leaves consequences to be decided by Allah:

(18:29) And proclaim: 'This is the truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe; and let him who will, disbelieve. We have prepared a Fire for the wrong-doers whose billowing folds encompass them. If they ask for water, they will be served with a drink like dregs of oil that will scaled their faces. How dreadful a drink, and how evil an abode!

Am I seeing this right?

Re: # 31

I do not understand your understanding. The superlative "Do not..." does not leave a choice as you suggest. We can only say something is voluntary when there is a choice.

PPP always had street power and if today if it is able to bring people to streets owing to euphoria generated by the return of their exile leader and that too with facilitation of state whats the big deal!
Mr Paracha's consistent insistence on down playing lawyers movement and calling it anal urban middle class morality is banal. I would again pose a simple question. How many people came to streets when Bhutto was hanged and yet today they have " jammed" the streets prompting our psuedo intellectual journalist to call the lawyers movement a reflection of right wing urban middle class mentality.
First of all, it should be understood that a well organized party with sufficient funds and logistical apparatus can bring people on the streets particularly when it has sufficient time to prepare and when it knows that state will not stop people from coming.
I would have still agreed with Mr Paracha's stance that rural poor do not give a crap and therefore have come to welcome their beloved leader, had PPP actually reflected the misery of the rural poor and during the past twenty years had raised issues pertaining to rural poor. During the past tweny years PPP has inducted feudals and party in the rural areas is basically dominated by those feudal Lords. Mr Paracha unfortunately does not belong to the rural area and I think has never even been to rural area to actually understand about what issues rural people give a crap about.
If the real issues are poverty equality and feudalism, would Mr Paracha tell me that when did the feudal dominated PPP raise them in the past twenty years. After all his apparent explanation behind today's successful showing of PPP is that people side with those who voice the real issues rather than media manufactured anal urban middle class issues.

I wont disagree that ordinary people loved ZAB and he was despite shortcomings a great leader. Ordinary people have consistently voted for PPP as a token of respect to the great leader not because PPP has been voicing real issues which touch the core of millions. Todays showing which had full facilitation of state also can be better interperated in that light rather than through this psuedo leftist as well as marxist interpretation for which Mr Paracha is famous for.

#33 Posted by Urstruly:

I do not want to argue for the sake of arguement. The passage can be read as:

"In the pursuit of pomp and glitter, do not ..........."

It does not say what to do or not to do, for example, "in the pursuit of mere survival .....". Other verses may, this verse does not. If you have the time and inclination, do point out other verses. No need to quote just the references. Thanks.

#33 Posted by Urstruly:

OK the other reference makes more sense. The following is closer to waht you say.

(7:3) "(O Jamaa'atul Mu'mineen) Follow only that which has been revealed to you by your Rabb and do not follow any friends and protectors other than Him. (The subservience to Divine Laws and not of any human being is the real freedom), but very few keep this reality in mind."

Re: # 36

GT, like I said, I quoted only one verse. There are many snd according to Asool (method of interpretation) the verses cannot be contradictory.

Please check out the website I posted to understand the concept of State in Islam, if you are interested.

Urstruly,

Ur points are good but who bells the cat?

Ras,

The links are informative but I cant get over the image of Surrey Palace she bought (& sold later) and the number of antiques smuggled outta Pakistan.

Lets wait and see how u guys overcome the blues.

Re: # 38

I think our misery will eventually force us to either change or become dinosaurs and perish.

Re: # 39

urstruly,

.... i guess you and others of your ilk - zeemax, abu sufwan, echo and masadi - are happy that the soldiers of al-lah tried to strike a blow for your cause ..... i hope you are watching the carnage on geo to satisfy your lust for the blood of those who do not share your twisted world view ...... i am sure you have a good erection