Of Carnage and Triumph

hamidm mian# "..i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ......."

i have accepted nothing, because there is nothing to accept.....you are fabricating information and trying to pass it on to me.....

do highlight where i said that nawaz sharif is a self-made man.......kindly do this after you highlight where i said he is a hero.......

i stated the following:

1. i said nawaz sharif's father is rags to riches story, which he is......i stand by this, and will continue to do so, until someone provides facts that prove otherwise.....

2. i said that other than benazir, the major power players in pakistan that i listed, come from non-power player middle class to pooor families.....and i stand by that......infact i provided a description of the original profession of their fathers.......none of which you have countered......

you have, for some strange reason attributed to me the following:

1. implying that he was a self-made man .......
2. does not make you a hero .......

i never said any of them are heroes, nor do i think nawaz sharif is a self-made man......

hamidm: heed romair's observation in #116 that lower classes like you have taken over the running of Pakistan from romair raja's noble ancestors!! you upset the natural order of things, and of course you are going to have problems. now get back to your mud-hut where you belong, and dont talk back to your betters, like Raja T-Shirt Romair!!

hamid to bulleya "....... you are disgraceful ! "

And what are you, full of grace? Have you ever bothered reading your own posts....moron

Re: # 114

no. i 'd just slap him and walk on...

romair: you are too modest!! with your expert analysis of the situation, everything becomes crystal clear even to dumbbells like me. your 20/20 foresight allows your fans to remain ahead of the curve!!!

Re: # 116

romair,

.... you idiot! ... i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ....... i showed you that he was not .... so stop trying to wriggle out of yet another t-shirt situation ...... and i didn't challenge you on musharraf - he too belongs to the 'elite' class (as classes are defined in pakistan) ......

....... you are disgraceful !

hamidm mian#: "just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ......"

.....all i stated in my reply was that, contrary to popular belief, many of pakistan's current leaders have come from humble families......."other than bhutto family,....in pakistan are from middle to poor families"....

i have provided the background of these families, which you initially challenged, and now seem to have accepted.......

....where exactly did i say they were heroes?.......kindly highlight.......

p.s. in pakistan, politics works on the basis of families and family backgrounds......benazir would be a nobody had her last name not been bhutto.....infact, neither would her father.......however, punjab has, generally, had a change in hierarchy, as far as families go......there use to be a time when rajas etc. dominated the province......now, barring southern punjab, the leadership has moved into the hands of traditionally poorer groups.......which is what i was trying to highlight......

Re: # 109

romair,

.... you idiot! .... bill ford's grandfather was born in a modest farmhouse in michigan and john rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman who sold magical cures .....

........ just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ....... heck, my father was running around barefooted till he was five and was squatting in the fields like an ordinary hindoo until he was fifteen ... he lived in a mud house that his mother plastered every year and sat under a kiker tree minding the family buffalo while he studied ..... good for him! ..... but when i was growing up, we always had an indoor toilet and before the flush system came along we always had a christian who would empty out our commodes (as you know muslims don't do menial tasks we couldn't find any hindoos, because they had all left!) ...... so does that mean that i am some kind of a genius ?!

........ you are a fool and an embarassment for all pakistanis ..... if it weren't for you we wouldn't have to suffer at the hands of people like arjun ....

Re: # 112 naqsh

What are you going to do when you meet in real life? Blow yourself up to kill the kafir who insulted your bedouin god?

tahmad #:"hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!....you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!"

...don't hate me because i am beautiful.......

....i have neither high-powered contacts, nor an incredible mind.....however, if you want to attribute these qualities to me, that is your perrogative.....

.....now, in comparison to hamidm mian, the above may be true......but enganging in a debate with hamidm mian and proving one's point, is like defeating kenya or zimbabwe in a test match......i.e. it does not require a brilliant mind.......anyone can do it.......

Re: # 105

i hope one day we meet in real life that's all you hindu piss drinker.

to add to #110: hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!!

#109 bulleya: you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!

hamidm mian#: "..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ?"

yes they were.......however, how did they get there......where did they start from?.....please do some research and let us know.......you will discover that it was a rags to riches story.....nawaz sharif's father and his six uncles started from rags and built it into riches.....

all the people i have mentioned (other than altaf hussain), were quite well off, some very rich like nawaz sharif, but their families started from a very middle class or poor background.....including abbaji......which is my point......

bjkumar #: "Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......"

i agree with the points you made regarding pakistan and the army's involvment.......

cannot agree with your points regarding india, until proof is provided......

at the moment this discussion is only regarding pakistani politics.......the reformation of the army and relations with india is a much more complex topic.....

in regards to relations with india, there is a long list of complaints that pakistan has against india as well......i think both sides need to address each others' complaints......not just pakistan.......

laddu#: "Most of the democracies have 'political families....I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election."

this is correct.....however, these families come through a process.....hillary clinton, to become president, has to go through a very strict primary election process....both within her party and within usa.....and then she has to compete in an even more rigorous national election.....

.....in pakistan's rural areas, the second generation of the family gets elected without such rigours......the feudals and pirs own their voters......benazir could nominate her pet dog and it will get elected....i am not joking.....hillary could not do so.....

now in more urban areas, like lahore, things are different....nawaz sharif's son will automatically get elected.......but not his pet dog......

"Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan."

......i agree......in fact, now that i have a better understanding of pakistan, having spent six months there, and having had a chance to interact with individuals i would not have had access to fifteen years ago, i think the high command of the army may be the most corrupt group....they have actually legalised corruption......all politicians etc. do pay for their corruption......zardari was in jail, benazir and nawaz in exile......however, it is interesting that not one general has been convicted of any crime and been put in a real jail.....

the ex-naval chief was convicted......however, musharraf placed him in a rest house, not in jail........while ppp's ex finance minister (naveed qamar) and speaker (yusuf gilani) were in a real jail for years, without being convicted......as was the head of pml....javed hashmi......