Of Carnage and Triumph

Re: # 57 Romair will not be liked by many as he is putting things as there no massaging of facts and straight forward. People have gone tired of this drama/ farce and people will loose interest in heronite of this commedy /tragedy , General hero has already lost his appeal, only America will write how this commedy/tragedy concludes
There only two hopes
1. courts may disqualify general ( hero disqualification)
2. Courts may decide to put white wash corrouption (heroine in trouble)ordinance as not leagal as constiitution does not allow hiding of corrouption.
I do not know law related things but person like YLH needs to give his opinion from lawyer point of view.
If this happens then producers mrs Rice Bush may dismiss both hero and heroine.
Actually only party never ruled is religious party as USA is aftraid of them is wrong. Actually they can control even better look at conservative religious regimes of arab regime. If america becomes too tired of nondeliverance they will go to MMA and they can do better job of controlling borders. This bunch is sure not pretty but they get blamed for things , they never had power to call shots.
The fate of country is in hands of CJ and other judges.

Re: # 63

I agree.

BB was always under pressure of the khakhis. These khakhis are the real bastards responsible for the collapse of civilian structures. Corruption has been part and parcel of the bureaucracy since the days of zimmi-dari system- the zimmidar and his munsifs and the rest always pocketed a part of the public goods, taxes and penalties.

Corruption is a problem of bad governance, and can be fixed by removing the archaic colonial policies of suppression of citizens through inspector raj.

Removing BB and replacing with Mushy did not remove the inspector raj and the colonial structures of supression remain within governmental machinery.

If corruption is an issue then let it be fought out in the public through democracy- debate it and expose the corrupt publically but that does not warrant intervention by any military. Military has no locus standi to intervene. In fact these khakhis from ayub to zia to musharaff should be shot dead publically for treason.

If any one had the locus standi to depose BB - it was the public through elections. Only democracy can fix itself - because the machinery of democracy ensures that self correction takes place.
By constant intervention the khakhis collapsed good civilian democracy and replaced it with a monster that has ensured that mullahs become powerful.
Let BB come and I am sure these mullahs would be made to work for a living .
She would ensure that they remain within their limits and do turn into some who dreams of turning the world into a war between kafirs and momeens.
Let these mullahs do some good hard labour - they need to justify their place in this world through that and not through some lectures on dooms day.

bj,

... you are making more sense as you get older

1) you are right - bb is the only politician who has national appeal .... in the last election, out of the 6 seats in rawalpindi district (which is considered to be pml country and from where 10 corps rules the country) ppp won 2, dependents got two seats and pml (n&q) got one seat each ........ my man sheikh rashid ran as an independent ... sheikh rashid zindabad ! (it is impossible not to love that carmudgeon)

2) feudalism in pakistan is a state of mind - everyone suffers from it to some degree ..... the most common thing you hear on the streets is "oye, tu janda nahin, mein kaun aan!"...... some, like bb, carry it off with a little dignity while others, like raja romair, sound silly with their tall claims of 'personally' knowing people in high places and being privy to state secrets during their 'career' in the military ...... and then there is me - the feudal in me wants to smack the poor raja upside the head and then turn around and kick his khoti (it is an ethnic joke that raja sahib will understand)

3) ....... later, gotta go now

#57

Bulleya,

(1) The BeeB is from Sindh, but is truly a national politician. How many Pakistani leaders have such widespread appeal?

(2) If she is from a feudal class that is simply providence. She can not change that. In your (apparent) bitter dislike of that whole class, you are blinded to the obvious - that within feudals, like within any large group, there are a variety of qualities of people.

(3) Regarding corruption - I have talked earlier. It is an unpleasant but ever-present subcontinental fact of life. The only reason that the khakis may be less corrupt (and they are not immune, in fact) is because they have a guaranteed "job" - so less a "need" for it!

(4) The khakis - because of their training, will always be more efficient decisionmakers. It does not mean those are the right decisions. More important, it gives them no legitimacy - they are still usurpers of power (even benign ones like Musharraf) who have effectively destroyed the supreme law of the land - by vitiating its constitution! In a democratic setup, the decisions must be made by the people or their legitimate representatives - clumsily, hesitatingly, and all that. It is all a part of the process. It can not be imposed on the people.

(5) In the past, the BeeB never had REAL power - not even as much as the NS. She compromised with the khakis of back then - hoping that even a little bit of power was better than no power. She has realized that such power is dead-end. She needs to be a real decisionmaker in order to make a difference and improve the status of Pakistani population. The population still likes her, she has shown durability. What she did not have in the past - and now has aplenty, is the US support for promoting democracy in that country! The BeeB is showing more maturity and better resilience!

Regarding looks - you can have Imran Khan, I will retain the BeeB!

To each, his own! :)

chowk staff,

........ if you can't ban masadi, at least please ban romair for a week or so - he is ruining my breakfast !

...... i think you should ban anyone who changes his name and tries to start a new life, hoping that no one will notice that garbage stinks if you put it in fine china - there is something fishy about these people

Re: # 53

ib mian,

.... the reason that all suicide bombers are pashtoons is because they are better muslims than the rest of us ..

... i agree that the government has to go after the wild-eyed tribesmen who have been bothering the suris, the lodhis, the mughuls, the abdalis, the british and the sikhs since 846 AD...... however, it might be better to start by abolishing the fcr and extending the political parties act to the tribal areas - it is time we started treating these people as full pakistani citizens and getting rid of the sardars, maliks and their silly jirga system ...... i think it is patronizing and demeaning to treat these poor bastards differently than the average unwashed abdul in korangi ...... the tribal is three rungs down on the ladder of human evolution and he needs to be pulled up or else he will continue to pull you down ......

From the article in #59..as you sow, so shall you reap..(i.e. karma is a female of the canine species)

The militants contacted by the AP Friday refused to say whether they suspected Pakistan's intelligence agencies or military of involvement in the attack on Bhutto. But they said sympathizers within government structures do indeed help suicide bombers.

"In the Pakistani (secret) agencies and in the army there are so many people who are not secular, who are fundamentalists and will help a suicide bomber to carry out his job," said Saifullah, a former district leader of Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen. Saifullah uses just one name.

Several senior al-Qaida operatives have been arrested in homes owned or occupied by members of the Jamaat-e-Islami party, which was part of a six-party religious alliance that governed North West Frontier Province until the parliament was dissolved earlier this month.

Several militant groups have also been linked to Pakistan's secret service, including Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Harakat-ul-Islam and Jaish-ul Mohammed. Pakistan has outlawed some of the groups but allowed them to resurface under other names.

Lashkar-e-Tayyaba was banned in 2002 but reconstituted as Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which was outlawed as a terrorist group by the United States. Pakistan, however, has refused to ban it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pakistan_militants

Pakistani militants share deep beliefs



By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 19, 6:56 PM ET

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - Some are al-Qaida, some are Taliban and others are homegrown. But all of Pakistan's militants share a vision and unshakable beliefs that include a ban on a woman leading the nation and opposition to a close alliance with America.

Militants contacted by The Associated Press in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province Friday called Thursday's suicide attack revenge for the Pakistani military operations in the area and the support Bhutto and Musharraf have offered the United States in its fight against terrorism.

Mahmoud Al Hasan, a leader of Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen(yup..the indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters of the HuM), a militant group aligned to Pakistan's religious Jamaat-e-Islami party, condemned the bombing because of the civilians who were killed, but attacked both Bhutto and Musharraf as a "slaves" of the United States.

A businessman in the northwestern city of Peshawar who finances militant groups said the attack against Bhutto was well-coordinated and planned. The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of being arrested by authorities, said there are hundreds of would-be bombers in Pakistan who are ready to blow themselves up in such attacks.

SR# are you back in pakistan?

bjkumar #: interesting comments........i think people may be looking at bb from a distance.....a closer look may reveal something else.....

"They like her because her liberal credentials are better than any of her adversaries.."

benazir is a feudal....through and through.....she is the chief feudal head of pakistan......the second tier is feudal and pir (barring the odd jehangir badar and aitezaz ahsans).....feudals can never (i repeat never) be liberal......do take sometime to go the areas where these feudals and pirs rule......you will vomit with disgust at the way they treat fellow humans......liberalism doesn't mean going to oxford and denouncing mullahs and allowing dance parties and free flow of alcohol (all things that ppp leadership will do)....that is hamidmism, not liberalism.....liberalism means, above everything else, a respect for fellow human beings and a tolerance for those different from one's own self.......in terms of respect for humanity, believe me, even jamaat-i-islami is far more liberal than feudals....it, at least has some genuine time for the poor person across the street...not that i support either.....

"BB has a good record of reducing both terrorism and lowering tensions with India."

the person who was really ready to lower tensions with india was nawaz sharif.....he was ready to open trade and i believe was actually starting to sell sugar (?) to india.....he arranged vajpayee's visit etc.......only a businessman is going to improve relations with india.....take my word for it.......because only a businessman has a lot to gain from that.......feudals, maulvis and army have everything to lose......

musharraf has also reduced tensions with india.....moreso than anyone else.......but for different reasons......

benazir, along with maulana fazl, created the taliban.....it was bhutto who declared ahmedis non-muslims.....these guys flow with the wind.....

"Perhaps one reason her reign was so corrupt (if it was indeed more than that of others) is because the khakis ensured that corruption was the only thing she was allowed to do."

actually, nawaz sharif is more corrupt than her......she just got more publicity, becuase she plants her stash of cash outside pakistan, as she doesn't have an industrial base in pakistan.....while nawaz sharif invests his stash in pakistan.......however, she and zardari (and nawaz) are massively corrupt.....they are in some international who's who of corruption.....zardari was on a transparency internaitonal pamphlet front page.....

"She appears to have learnt from some of her past mistakes"

that is what everyone said last time.......a core feudal cannot learn......they have to totally change their lifestyle, which they will never do.....why does she, specifically, want to be pm for the third time......why not let someone else in her party be pm?........will she push land reforms?.......why doesn't she face the courts for corruption.......why not face the swiss courts, where she has been convicted?.........why do under-hand deals to make kosher the massive wealth outside pakistan?

if she is truly courageous, she should march into swiss courts and face them......anyone can make a speech in karachi......make one in a zurich court room and i will be impressed......after all swiss courts aren't politically motivated, are they?

"she still retains her appeal to the aam awaam, as is clear from her welcome."

yes, this is true.......she like all major politicians has a votebase.......but look at the number of people who hate her......just on this site.......there are far more who hate her and think she has destroyed pakistan......

all feudals and pir based political parties will have a large votebase......since they control the votebase......they own the votebase......it consists of very poor people who have no opportunities.......however, until musharraf came along, she had completely lost the urban edeucated free votebase......there wasn't a city in pakistan, where ppp could win......mqm owned karachi, nawaz owned lahore and pindi.......anp owned peshawar....

"is probably better-looking than all of her competition combined..."

yes, this is true........though imran khan would be at the top if we look at both genders......i went to her book signing in dubai, and she was looking quite good for a lady in her 50s.......

benazir is a unique lady......with a hell of a lot of guts and leadership qualities......the only women in the islamic world and perhaps in south asia, who scares the hell out of every man in pakistan - including generals, pirs, feudals, badmashes etc.....i have seen big feudals and pirs, personally, get scared to death, when she calls.....

she (like her father) had everything going for her......yet she blew it.......she is only in it for power......for personal power......the power of being a prime minister and not being an ordinary citizen.......

on top of it, unlike her father she is massively corrupt (so power and money)........

i am convinced that there are two groups of people who can never create progress in pakistan........maulvis and feudals.......it doesn't matter what you dress them up as - be they a good looking westernized lady or a good looking westernized maulvi.......

the return of benzir - part III - is going to be hell for pakistan......take my word.....i would still take musharraf over her.......though he is a lost case, now also......

on the other hand, ppp, without benazir, would be quite acceptable......it has some good solid genuinely progressive people......

#34 Posted by bulleya on October 20, 2007 2:37:03 am


.....one has to be amazed at the forgiving nature of pakistanis


you've served out more whoppers than BK but you still forgave yourself and resumed your role as the poohbah of geopolitics.

so pakis are forgiving and forgetful...

#37 Posted by SR on October 20, 2007 3:12:32 am


quickly managed to encourage national amnesia


You believed what you wanted to believe and forgot what you wanted to forget. Nobody can make anyone forget anything. or delude them into believing something that isn't true.

#53 IB - you cant write a post without some ethnic angle to it, and you consider yourself "normal"?? indivduals like you are sick. and after may 12 mqm is hardly in a position to be considered as any better than the criminals who attacked the peaceful crowd yesterday.

How come all suicide bombers are Pashtoons? (except for one - on mullana turabi - was a Burmese)

The government should immediately start an offensive in tribal areas - but it's never too late. There is a serious cultural and religious identity problem in Pashtoons - and that needs to be addressed as well.

Benzair Bhootani (Salims word) would prove to be a good partner to Mushraff , MQM and normal Pakistanis because she’s a natural alley against religious extremists and nut-cases like urstruly.

Re: # 42

bj,

.... finally! .... a post by you that i fully agree with - specially #6 ....

.... like i said before, bb is the ony queen we have in the lousy hand of cards that is full of jokers and knaves ...... and she has balls! ...... i hear all the corruption charges against her and all that but, to be honest, i don't think her government was any more corrupt than any other - it was just more hyped and asif zardari didn't help with is 'badmash' looks and reputation ..... hopefully he will stay out of the limelight this time around ........ the biggest problem with ppp is that it won't be able to survive without her ...

#29 Posted by masadi on October 20, 2007 12:56:25 am


In #28 read

as


you don't need to post corrections.

Most of us read masadi's posts as

US elite US elite US elite US elite

anyway...