Of Carnage and Triumph

hamidm/tahmad #: of the four questions i asked, only one has been answered, i.e. hamidm mian's father was not a brigadier......the remaining three remain unanswered.....hence i will ask them again:

tahmad: was your father in the military and was he a brigadier
hamidm mian: was your father in the military (if not a brigadier, then some other rank, perhaps?)

"but...and mr know-it-all .........."

i am, still, truly amazed that you consider me a, "know-it-all"......perhaps it could be that i only have average knowledge and yours is quite a bit below, hence i seem like a know-it-all to you.......

Hindus could be behind many of the blasts in Pakistan

The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India





Blatant double standards
22 Oct 2007, 0000 hrs IST,

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
With Islamic groups “not being ruled out’’ as culprits in the Ludhiana bomb blast, and Bangladeshis being interrogated for the Ajmer blast, it is clear that in India’s fight against terrorism, one group of terrorists is being completely excluded.

This is despite the Nanded blast in April 2006, in which two persons died while making bombs in the house of an RSS member, and the recovery of fake beards from the house. This is despite the revelations during narco-analysis of the accused that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) was training Hindu youth to commit terrorist acts outside mosques. Neither the RSS nor any of its militant wings are ever suspected by the police of being behind any of the bomb blasts that have targeted Muslims with regularity since the 2003 Parbhani blast.

This newspaper highlighted the sensational letter written from Tihar jail by an ex-Intelligence Bureau (IB) informer detailing how IB, working with the Delhi Police’s Special Cell, plants its own ‘‘jehadi maulvis’’ to lure Muslim youth to commit terrorist acts. The Central Bureau of Investigation, directed by the Delhi high court, has corroborated the most important accusations made by the informer. Every politically conscious Muslim, thanks to the Urdu press and the internet, now knows this story.

These two factors taken together are enough to destroy the credibility of the intelligence set-up and the police. Yet, the latter continue to act true to type after every blast, as though nothing’s changed. The same automatic blaming and arrest of the usual suspects; the same revelation that the IB/home department had warned about such a blast.

It is ironic that the very congregations of Muslims that have always been treated with suspicion by the police have become the targets of terrorist killings since 2003.

The depositions of senior policemen before the Srikrishna commission were marked by a Friday-namaz-phobia; they made it a point to stress that ‘‘bandobast was tightened for the Friday prayers and no untoward incident took place’’. The implication was clear: with Muslims gathering in such large numbers to listen to sermons in mosques, there was every chance of them going berserk thereafter.

Yet, there is little evidence of the high-profile Anti-Terrorist Squads (ATS), set up in Maharashtra and elsewhere, having conducted raids on RSS outfits. In fact, the Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act has not even been applied to the Nanded RSS accused, while it has to those accused for the July 11, 2006 train blasts, the Malegaon blasts and the alleged Naxalites. Nanded’s Muslims had to move the court before the state even called in the ATS to investigate the case.

You don’t need to be the IB to fear a blast during Diwali. Imagine the backlash if that happens. Yet, a blast on the eve of Ramzan Eid at India’s best-known Muslim shrine created no such reaction. The Ajmer dargah was teeming with devotees who had fasted the entire month and planned to spend their most important religious festival at their favourite shrine. Even the return of the bodies to their homes in Mumbai’s slums passed off peacefully. Compare this extreme restraint with the threats given by the Modis, Thackerays, Togadias and Singhals in similar circumstances.

After every bomb blast targeting Hindus, these self-styled Hindu leaders ask why Muslims have not condemned it. Their logic is clear: Because some Muslims have targeted Hindus, the entire community has to distance itself from them or else share their guilt. But not once in the recent blasts targeting Muslims has such a demand been made by Muslims of Hindus; neither have Hindu organisations condemned such acts.

The state’s agencies have different yardsticks when dealing with terrorist acts targeting Hindus and Muslims. What’s more disturbing is the difference between the conduct of the victim communities in the aftermath of such acts. Isn’t this difference an indication of the power equation between the majority and largest minority in our secular democracy?

romair,

you idiot ! .... who told you that my father was a brigadier ? ...... the poor man used to ride a bicycle to work because he wanted to save on the petrol - albeit, it was a phillips with a pump mounted on the cross bar and the orderly would dust it off and hold it for him ! ....

..... and don't give me this crap about your poor buddies in the airforce ...... if you had managed to keep your job as a grease monkey for fifteen years, you could have walked off with a house worth two crore rupees ...... and, if you were smart, you could also have landed a couple of plots in dha which you could have flipped and pocketed another 50 lakh or so ......... i know plenty of wing commanders who have done just that then gone ont to a cushy job with shaheen foundation ......... but you are a fool and are now pounding the pavement as an international businessman, plitical pundit and mr know-it-all ..........

..... jeez ! what a maroon !

#141 bulleye: you write "- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite...."

your powers of logic never cease to amaze me!! i bet you could almost reason your way out of an open barn door.

and your implication that i am "not divulging" information about myself is bs - i am actually one of the more open posters on chowk, and when i consider it relevant to what I am writing i mention family details. but that is my choice, not something i or anyone owes anyone on chowk.

only a moron would think that anyone owes some stranger on the internet his personal details.

#141 bulleye: you write "- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite...."

your powers of logic never cease to amaze me!! i bet you could almost reason your way out of an open barn door.

and your implication that i am "not divulging" information about myself is bs - i am actually one of the more open posters on chowk, and when i consider it relevant to what I am writing i mention family details. but that is my choice, not something i or anyone owes anyone on chowk.

only a moron would think that anyone owes some stranger on the internet his personal details.

tahmad #139: "How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk?"

...could i request you to kindly answer the questions:

3. tahmad mian: was your father in the pakistan army
4. tahmad mian: was he a brigadier

...it is not a question of official ranks......it is question of figuring out exactly where one is coming from......it allows one to differentiate the hypocrites from the straight-talkers........e.g.

- if someone migrates to the usa and benefits from the usa by living there, yet still badmounths the place, he is a hypocrite

- if someone urges others' kids to war, but will never send his own, he is a hypocrite

- if someone is a product of higher-ups of the military, and believes that military higher-up is filled with corruption (which it is), yet does not disclose such information about himself, he is a hypocrite....

#135 bulleye: How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk? The internet is the supreme equalizer in many ways - what you write stands or falls on its own merits, without any influence exerted by socio-economic levels, personal gravitas, and so forth. Lets not try to change that.

#135 bulleye: How are the official ranks of anyone's aba-o-ijdaad relevant to what that individual writes on chowk? The internet is the supreme equalizer in many ways - what you write stands or falls on its own merits, without any influence exerted by socio-economic levels, personal gravitas, and so forth. Lets not try to change that.

Ras and Hamidm: Thanks for your words of appreciation.

Romair sahib,

What really are the options in front of Pakistan and gen Mush at the moment?

If they dont fight, two things can happen. First, they risk the jihadis establishing themselves firmly in FATA from where they will gradually spreads their tentacles into the rest of NWFP and after that the whole of Pakistan. In effect creeping Talibanisation of Pakistan. Second, if things go out of control in FATA, their is the possibility that USA decides to military intervene in NWFP without Paki approval in fact in face of downright Paki opposition. And there wouldn't be much that pakistan can do about it. In such a case USA wuldnt care to provide any susbidy to Pak Army if it is doing the fighting itself.

If it does fight in FATA, it risks heavy casualty both to itself and to the civillian population and heavy unpopularity in rest of Pakistan too for the Pakis (barring the kanjaroon elite) perceive it as USA's war. And should the US-Pak alliance win decisively in A'stan-FATA (which is very likely) there is always a possibility that once the war is over USA just walks out without any big payoff to pakistan (except of course saving civil society in Pak which is a big plus any way).

Hard choices for Pakistan and its ruler but on balance you would think that the best option is to fight and win in FATA. While at the same time try to wean away the local population from the jihadi cause by investing in their development

Regards

#134 by bulleya

so the two biggest beneificiaries of the army, encouraging other poorer folks to, "fight on" while quitely enjoying themselves in the usa........

Romair mian, if it wasn't for the lack of opportunity, I'm sure you would have been in the WOT too, fighting for the Paki Army against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. After all, not too long ago, weren't you the one who expressed an itch to lead the American troops into Afghanistan?

four questions for messrs. hamidm mian and tahmad:

1. hamidm mian: was your father in the pakistan army
2. hamidm mian: was he a brigadier....
3. tahmad mian: was your father in the pakistan army
4. tahmad mian: was he a brigadier

let's come clean and establish one's backgrounds....

p.s. a brigadier during those days was equivalent to a lt. gen. of today's world.......

hamidm mian #: "whenever we went up with friends who were junior officers in the air force or army, we never paid the toll - the flying officer"

..i will definitely agree with you on this, when it comes to generals....i have had much larger fights with them then you can ever type on your keyboards.....

in fact, didn't you say your father was a brigadier....hence you, yourself, are a product of this military feudalism.....the fact that you are comfortably settled in usa and can afford a sprinkler guy, should be the first item you (and the rest of us) should be criticizing......quite a bit of hypocrisy......a scion of the military elite, not criticizing himself first....

as for the flying officer and lieutenant, kindly spare a thought for the poor guy.......i used to be one......and lived from paycheck to paycheck......these guys have zero money.......even now, when i go back and meet my batchmates, and take them out to pizza hut, they all get this worried look on their face, when the bill arrives....

now the four or five of them who become generals, will no doubt, make huge amounts of money, through legalized corruptoin......and will then send their kid to the usa, who will benefit from this corruption, and hire a sprinkler guy........or wait, hasn't that already happened.....

so, would it be correct to state, that your dad is, himself, a brigadier and a beneficiary of this legalized corruption.......shouldn't we (or you, yourself) be targeting you, first.......

you are a wealthy expat, sitting abroad, having lived off the benefits of pakistan and the benefits of the pakistan army through your dad, never willing to come back to pakistan to do anything, encouraging every war yet never willing to volunteer for it, and bent on keeping your kids away from it, while encouraging poorer kids to fight........

p.s. if i am not incorrect, i believe mr. tahmad's dad was also a brigadier in the pakistan army........kindly correct me, if i am wrong tahmad......

so the two biggest beneificiaries of the army, encouraging other poorer folks to, "fight on" while quitely enjoying themselves in the usa........allah be praised.....and george bush be praised.......

When a person (Ras) has been reduced to mere cheerleading in posts, you can know that his grasp of the issues and arguments is rather weak. Tahmed has no personal point of view, as usual he is merely pushing the official talking points of the US elite and hence his support for BB. Hamid is pushing the official talking points not of the US elite (who are more sophisticated) but the talking points of Bush (who stumbles through the elite agenda due to weakness in the intellect department), and were it not for Cheney they would have got rid of him by now, so in this progressively lowered expectations, Ras figures in at the bottom pushing the talking points of both the peons of the West....

Re: # 130

ras mian,

.... tahmed is a good chap even though i sometimes berate him for being a 'good' muslim .... if all muslims were like him i could live with islam .......

hamidm2 Sahib,

write on!

Never thought that I would be writing this but

I want to extend my appreciation to tahmed32 Sahib.

Not only is he right in my opinion but he has a much

better understanding of the current situation than bull eya

ahmed mad ani and especially Lad du.

Ras

romair,

... you fool! ....... let me tell you who the real 'feudals' are in pakistan ...... maybe i will just give you a simple example that even your airman's brain can understand:

.... on the way from pindi to murree there is a toll gate at satran meel (seventeen mile) ..... as long as i can remember, whenever we went up with friends who were junior officers in the air force or army, we never paid the toll - the flying officer would simply show his id card and be waved through with a salute by a poor civilian in tattered shalwar kameez and chappals ...... even the legharis and mazaris pay up ....

Naqsh

Slap and Run - that's your plan?... Are you running out of suicide belts?...

BTW - I saw a photo of Salman Khan praying to Pagan Goddess Durga... he did again dude... aren't you supposed to kill him or something?...

correcton to #126 that should be "stray, three-legged dog". mea culpa!!

#125 Great response, General Romair sir, if I may say so. And nothing less is expected from you. Now could you teach this miserable Son Masadi to make such clever comebacks too, rather than merely cursing and abusing and whining like a stray one-legged dog?

tahmad #118: "you are too modest!! with your expert analysis of the situation, everything becomes crystal clear even to dumbbells like me. your 20/20 foresight allows your fans to remain ahead of the curve!!!"

as i said, don't hate me because i am beautiful.......

i have never claimed to have 20/20 foresight.....nor have i ever considered you a dumbbell...however, as i stated earlier, if you say so, i will accept both your evaluations - the one about me and the one about you.......

#121 tahmed writes "hamidm: heed romair's observation..."

You need to do something better with your retirement than BS-ing here all day long. Have some dignity you peon of the West. Your posts remind me of the retired donkey let loose by its owner, in your case the US elite, after use and abuse, and not realizing that he is free he keeps singing the same tune as he stumbles from neighbourhood to neighbourhood and road to road. I pity you fool, have some self respect....

masadi, naqshbandi: what an auspicious timing. Just as I was talking about our other distinguished, all-knowing Pakistani on chowk, Romair!! You gentleman form the Holy Trinity, namely the Father Romair, the Son Masadi, and the Holy Ghost Naqshbandi!!

Together you spread grace around the world and protect it from that Great Satan Hamidm!!

hamidm mian# "..i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ......."

i have accepted nothing, because there is nothing to accept.....you are fabricating information and trying to pass it on to me.....

do highlight where i said that nawaz sharif is a self-made man.......kindly do this after you highlight where i said he is a hero.......

i stated the following:

1. i said nawaz sharif's father is rags to riches story, which he is......i stand by this, and will continue to do so, until someone provides facts that prove otherwise.....

2. i said that other than benazir, the major power players in pakistan that i listed, come from non-power player middle class to pooor families.....and i stand by that......infact i provided a description of the original profession of their fathers.......none of which you have countered......

you have, for some strange reason attributed to me the following:

1. implying that he was a self-made man .......
2. does not make you a hero .......

i never said any of them are heroes, nor do i think nawaz sharif is a self-made man......

hamidm: heed romair's observation in #116 that lower classes like you have taken over the running of Pakistan from romair raja's noble ancestors!! you upset the natural order of things, and of course you are going to have problems. now get back to your mud-hut where you belong, and dont talk back to your betters, like Raja T-Shirt Romair!!

hamid to bulleya "....... you are disgraceful ! "

And what are you, full of grace? Have you ever bothered reading your own posts....moron

Re: # 114

no. i 'd just slap him and walk on...

romair: you are too modest!! with your expert analysis of the situation, everything becomes crystal clear even to dumbbells like me. your 20/20 foresight allows your fans to remain ahead of the curve!!!

Re: # 116

romair,

.... you idiot! ... i have accepted nothing! ... you said that nawaz sharif was the son of a poor brick-kiln worker implying that he was a self-made man ....... i showed you that he was not .... so stop trying to wriggle out of yet another t-shirt situation ...... and i didn't challenge you on musharraf - he too belongs to the 'elite' class (as classes are defined in pakistan) ......

....... you are disgraceful !

hamidm mian#: "just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ......"

.....all i stated in my reply was that, contrary to popular belief, many of pakistan's current leaders have come from humble families......."other than bhutto family,....in pakistan are from middle to poor families"....

i have provided the background of these families, which you initially challenged, and now seem to have accepted.......

....where exactly did i say they were heroes?.......kindly highlight.......

p.s. in pakistan, politics works on the basis of families and family backgrounds......benazir would be a nobody had her last name not been bhutto.....infact, neither would her father.......however, punjab has, generally, had a change in hierarchy, as far as families go......there use to be a time when rajas etc. dominated the province......now, barring southern punjab, the leadership has moved into the hands of traditionally poorer groups.......which is what i was trying to highlight......

Re: # 109

romair,

.... you idiot! .... bill ford's grandfather was born in a modest farmhouse in michigan and john rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman who sold magical cures .....

........ just because your father or grandfather had a tough life does not make you a hero ....... heck, my father was running around barefooted till he was five and was squatting in the fields like an ordinary hindoo until he was fifteen ... he lived in a mud house that his mother plastered every year and sat under a kiker tree minding the family buffalo while he studied ..... good for him! ..... but when i was growing up, we always had an indoor toilet and before the flush system came along we always had a christian who would empty out our commodes (as you know muslims don't do menial tasks we couldn't find any hindoos, because they had all left!) ...... so does that mean that i am some kind of a genius ?!

........ you are a fool and an embarassment for all pakistanis ..... if it weren't for you we wouldn't have to suffer at the hands of people like arjun ....

Re: # 112 naqsh

What are you going to do when you meet in real life? Blow yourself up to kill the kafir who insulted your bedouin god?

tahmad #:"hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!....you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!"

...don't hate me because i am beautiful.......

....i have neither high-powered contacts, nor an incredible mind.....however, if you want to attribute these qualities to me, that is your perrogative.....

.....now, in comparison to hamidm mian, the above may be true......but enganging in a debate with hamidm mian and proving one's point, is like defeating kenya or zimbabwe in a test match......i.e. it does not require a brilliant mind.......anyone can do it.......

Re: # 105

i hope one day we meet in real life that's all you hindu piss drinker.

to add to #110: hamidm is also jealous of your high-powered contacts!!

#109 bulleya: you are right as always. hamidm is only jealous of your vast knowledge and incredible mind!!

hamidm mian#: "..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ?"

yes they were.......however, how did they get there......where did they start from?.....please do some research and let us know.......you will discover that it was a rags to riches story.....nawaz sharif's father and his six uncles started from rags and built it into riches.....

all the people i have mentioned (other than altaf hussain), were quite well off, some very rich like nawaz sharif, but their families started from a very middle class or poor background.....including abbaji......which is my point......

bjkumar #: "Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......"

i agree with the points you made regarding pakistan and the army's involvment.......

cannot agree with your points regarding india, until proof is provided......

at the moment this discussion is only regarding pakistani politics.......the reformation of the army and relations with india is a much more complex topic.....

in regards to relations with india, there is a long list of complaints that pakistan has against india as well......i think both sides need to address each others' complaints......not just pakistan.......

laddu#: "Most of the democracies have 'political families....I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election."

this is correct.....however, these families come through a process.....hillary clinton, to become president, has to go through a very strict primary election process....both within her party and within usa.....and then she has to compete in an even more rigorous national election.....

.....in pakistan's rural areas, the second generation of the family gets elected without such rigours......the feudals and pirs own their voters......benazir could nominate her pet dog and it will get elected....i am not joking.....hillary could not do so.....

now in more urban areas, like lahore, things are different....nawaz sharif's son will automatically get elected.......but not his pet dog......

"Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan."

......i agree......in fact, now that i have a better understanding of pakistan, having spent six months there, and having had a chance to interact with individuals i would not have had access to fifteen years ago, i think the high command of the army may be the most corrupt group....they have actually legalised corruption......all politicians etc. do pay for their corruption......zardari was in jail, benazir and nawaz in exile......however, it is interesting that not one general has been convicted of any crime and been put in a real jail.....

the ex-naval chief was convicted......however, musharraf placed him in a rest house, not in jail........while ppp's ex finance minister (naveed qamar) and speaker (yusuf gilani) were in a real jail for years, without being convicted......as was the head of pml....javed hashmi......

"I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis,..."

Hey, this is your Pak Studies and your history books that is speaking. If we wanted to we would have finished you off in 1971. But as you - 'Allah is merciful'.
We are not interested in anything to do with you . We do not mind if you belch allahu a thousand times a day or band your haed 50 times a day .
Just do not think about hurting any of the idolators or thinking that we would live in your Shariah land as your zimmi slaves.
Just keep of Mr. momeen troll.

" advising them to do this or that."
Hey, you can keep on blowing yourself or flogging each other for not being momeen enough. No problems.Go ahead!! But, Just do not think of sending jehadis to our land or killing hindu idolators.
We are only interested to the extent that is necessary to be prepared for selfdefence against the evil of Islam that is being nurtured in Pakistan against non muslims and hindu idolators.

say this publically-

" I declare that Allah is not the God but an evil Satanic deity. Mohammad is not a prophet but a charlatan and a rapist, pedophile bandit."

Re: # 103
"Heck, even after spending all my life with these Hindus I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis, advising them to do this or that. :("

Kaal you are clearly a momeen troll.

Can you negate the kalima publically in order to prove that you are a hindu idolator??

bori bhai, you won't get this Hindu man, beej. Heck, even after spending all my life with these Hindus I don't get what makes them so interested in lording over Pakistanis, advising them to do this or that. :(

Bjkumar what kind of hindu duplicity is this; for your own criminals and genociders you say:

"nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!"

for us you say we should punish them incuding those who have deposed despots' but have commited no crime against humanity as have your hindu modis and thakray

no wonder hindus are famed for their duplicity even by the former british officials in India

#100 Express

Don't go wishy-washy on me. Answer the rest of the questions which the Bulleya is too chicken to answer!

(From #89)

- the army chiefs and all their key leaders admit their crimes of subverting the constitution. They accept the applicable prison terms awarded by the courts in order to prove that they indeed are capable of accepting responsibility......

- the armed forces modify their structures so the power will never be centralized and there never will be a coup ever again. They accept the supremacy of civilian institutions forever......

- the armed forces release the Hamidur Rahman report in its entirety, and hold the guilty parties (whoever those be) accountable for their criminal acts and tender an unqualified apology to the country of Bangladesh for the unspeakable atrocities of 1971 and compensate the victims or their descendants.......

- the armed forces publish openly and punish all the ISI criminals who perpetrated the IC-814 outrage.......

"nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!"

This is the shame BJKumar that such criminals and mass murders and demogogues should live openly and freely in the 21st century in a country that purports itself to be democratic

shame

#97 Express

Dear Express, funny that you cut into my conversation with the Bulleya and pick this particular issue.

Does it mean that you agree with me on the other requirements that the khakis need to fulfill (as listed in #89)?

Bolo yaar, zubaan ghaas charne chal gayi, kya?

In any case, whatever the deeds of the two individuals you mention - they are not accused of doing anything inside the great Pakistan country (called P. country, for short).

Further, unlike the cowardly khakis of the P. country who deny that the Indian mobsters are their honored bosom-buddy-guests, nobody in India denies that these individuals live in India. In fact, they live there openly!

I know, I know - that sense of the ummaaaahhh is really overpowering for you - commonsense be darned!

I feel your pen! (Then I stick it to you.)

Re: # 80 Posted by masadi on October 20, 2007 11:05:40 am

[but no feudal can ensure that it remains a feudal country, were it not for the US elite/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state,]

Nonsense. If there are other economic forces feudal system could be minimized to bare minimum. In the US farmers are just 2% of the US GDP.

Surely, hamidm, can elaborate further.

BJ Kumar

"the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country......."

Pakistan will hand over the mob figures only after India has punished the perpetrators of the genocide against muslims in India including Bal tHakary and Modi; if your systems are weak and you cant punish them then hand them over to Pakistan where they will be given the apropriate punishment

Otherwise you are just another whining twofaced hindu with no credibility.

[why do you think so many pakistani feudals are in politics.....why aren't so many businessmen, lawyers, farmers etc. in politics.....]

The reason is quite simple. Intellectuals are not welcome in any Islamic country, and Pakistan is no exception. It takes money to politicize people whether it is money from agri-land or oil land or opium land.

What is himidmism?

Actually, Pakistan is being prepped for an imminent attack on Iran. Unlike their attack on Iraq, Western powers want to be completely prepared and assault Iran, before G.W. leaves office. Any insurgency coming from Pakistan will be neutered in Pakistan by the Pak-NATO alliance.

Re: # 91 NS is not dirt poor man. He is great industialist specially in iron and foundries. He has industry reated to foundries in S. Arabaria Saudi Arabians want him there as he is plan putting steel factories there.

Re: # 91
I am not saying that she has manipulated the situation against NS but rather to exhort herself from cases particularly those which are in foreign courts. Pakistani judicial system has little credibility-even it convicts BB her international standing remains intact. She was worried about international cases and knew that a conviction was likely. I am merely saying that contesting elections is NS right also not merely BB’s. Here the right is being selectively given.

Re: # 88

I do not think she manipulated the situation against NS. NS and BB rivalry is too open despite public pronouncements. NS made a fool of himself by first signing his exile papers and then trying to over run Pakistan with the support of the mullahs of MMA. NS chickened out when clinton told him about the readied nukes during kargil and called off Mush's plans which infuriated the real jehadi in Mush. NS is the real opportunist - BB's family suffered and Zardari faced 10 years in prison- if she was that powerful he would not have done so much of term. Why not NS face that term than take those 40 bags stuffed with dollars and live in mansions in exile?? NS is the joker of the pack now and mullahs are trying to use him. Mush has seen through the alliance between NS and the mullahs.

Re: # 84

romair,

.... you fool! ... where did you get this : "nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer " ....

..... mian muhammad sharif and his five or six brothers were big industrialists in amritsar before they came to lahore ....... ever heard of ittefaq foundaries ? ....

.... stop spreading your nonsense on chowk - this place is already stinking to high heaven with the garbage piled on by mad masadi .........

#81 Bulleya

Yaar, you forgot a few. Let me supply......

- the army chiefs and all their key leaders admit their crimes of subverting the constitution. They accept the applicable prison terms awarded by the courts in order to prove that they indeed are capable of accepting responsibility......

- the armed forces modify their structures so the power will never be centralized and there never will be a coup ever again. They accept the supremacy of civilian institutions forever......

- the armed forces release the Hamidur Rahman report in its entirety, and hold the guilty parties (whoever those be) accountable for their criminal acts and tender an unqualified apology to the country of Bangladesh for the unspeakable atrocities of 1971 and compensate the victims or their descendants.......

- the armed forces publish openly and punish all the ISI criminals who perpetrated the IC-814 outrage.......

- the armed forces arrest and extradite to India the Indian mob figures responsible for bombings in that country.......

I think the above may be good starters!

Re: # 87
I do agree that she should be allowed and for that matter she is the only one being allowed. The field is being cleared of her rivals- no not the Mullahs but Mian Nawaz Sharif.
If you have followed our history closely, you will find that it was rather a centre to right Nawaz Sharif who actually tried to make friends with India. He was deceived by army which launched Kargil operation and the resulting embarrassment led to Nawaz Sharif's ouster by the army. Although personally I am not a right wing person but Nawaz Sharif should have been at least allowed to come back as it is his democratic right also. The reason why you find some people against BB is that she has cleverly used the situation and got rid of all the corruption charges by actually linking her political support with that condition. It is not her coming back to which I am objecting but to her actual intentions. Moreover compared to Nawaz Sharif her exile was a self imposed exile- no body kicked her out.
I would have still agreed to this manipulation if she was the right answer-but in reality her vote bank is concentrated in wrong areas. Moreover people also keep on forgetting that Taliban government was actually formed during her tenor and with her explicit approval although the lady seems to deny that again and again.

Re: # 84

Most of the democracies have 'political families' at the helm- right from Nehru to Keneddy to Bush to Clinton and other places it has been the second generation taking up the calling of their family- it is like a caste system.
It has its advantages as well as dis-advantages- I do not understand how being ZAB's daughter becomes a dis-qualification for contesting a fair election.

Corruption is only an excuse for the army to take over the country. In doing so they destroyed every democratic institution in Pakistan.

Re: # 84 Generally poor are as corroupt as rich. Poor are not corroupt not because of virtue but have no chance to be corroupt, they are powerless.

Re: # 81 This is best one can think of to happen.
But as I said before Pakistan history shows we never gate lucky break but we get screwed up.
Even if it happens central exitential problem of "K" is there. Without K problem we would not have become totally dependent of USA. What best can happen to "K" problem so it is solved to satisfaction of Pakistan and once for all army forget about eastern and southern theatres which is over 2000 miles of problem line. Is there any light at end of tunnel ? Without "K" problem solved army will have to have share lion's resources and otherthings are secondary.
Any thoughts ?

even the poor become corrupt when in power:

- the general perception in pakistan is that it is a family dominated state, run by rich elites.......however, a closer look reveals otherwise......other than bhutto family, the rest of the powerhouses in pakistan are from middle to poor families:

- benazir - daughter of a super rich elitist feudal family

however,

- musharraf - son of middle class immigrant civil servant
- nawaz sharif - son of a very poor brick kiln laborer
- chaudhry shujaat - son of a police constable
- altaf hussein - an immigrant middle class pharmacy student
- ashfaq kiyani (coas designate) - son of a poor army sepoy

Re# 77 Thanks for understanding the point. I was not expressing contempt for the common man but merely trying to convey what was being said by that man. My family voted for PPP particularly in 1970s and even today as a matter of her democratic right I do not have any objection on her return. Its just that she is manipulating the situation and creatiing this impression that she is the answer.
I do not think that extremism can be controlled by popular support which is actually geographically not pronounced in troubled areas. The better political way, that is if you want to control extremism politically, is to pacify the dominant political forces which are present there even if they are conservative mullahs so that they are not able to raise agitation while army action is taking place. I do agree that army action also has to take place as I am against this form of blind and mad hatred which those militant elements are cultivating. But keep it focused and targeted.

Re: # 73 Romair i do not agree with you all times but you are giving right description what is happening or will happen.
My friend , boss told me some thing is going to happen soon in midwinter he has told many tings which proved right before.
USA govt and GOP has a plan for to introduction of army on permanant basis and establishing it self in all major towns in W. Stan. Army will enter in winter in Soth and North W.STan for permanant basis with big backing with field artillery fire power and air cavalary ( Big helicpter Gunships). The idea is to deny safe heaven to Taliban who are making troubles in A.Stan. try to choke taliban activity which they feel will be terrible blow to T.Bans. They have tested communiation gears already and new satellite positions being done to have full communication and instant communications. The formations will be following tactics of American forces or like Stepnaz forces. The ground forces of army will not be told anything and will go in action so no leakage. New general ( vice chief) is all time in touch with USA group in A.Stan.
I wonder you have heard from your privy sources same thing. Basic ideais to make history tribal status of terrority and no effects will spared in man, materials, airmachines and specially helicopter Gunships.
Thanks in advance if you know or want to add about establishing new system in W.Stan. Good night, sleepy

ideal scenario (probabaly too idealistic, though practically possible)

- supreme court disallows musharraf's election...musharraf quitely accepts the decision and leaves.....

- supreme courts disallows nro and hears corruption cases against bb and ns.....it convicts them and through a national reconciliation deal, they promise to return all the money, and retire from politics......

- ppp and pml go into crisis mode to elect new leadership......aitezaz ahsan becomes leader of ppp and javed hashmi of pml......

- uk hears cases against altaf hussain, filed by imran khan, and convicts him and jails him....mqm elects new leader....

- pakistan political politics align along two lines....liberals on one side (ppp, mqm, anp, ti etc.)....conservatives along other lines (pml, pti, jamaat etc.)

- liberals win elections in a close fight, winning sind and nwfp.....conservatives win punjab and baluchistan......

- aitezaz ahsan becomes prime minister.....asfandyar wali cm of nwfp, new leader of mqm cm of sindh....

- javed hashmi becomes leader of opposition....shahbaz sharif becomes chief minister punjab, and some dude becomes cm baluchistan (i don't know much about baluchistan).....

- imran khan is asked to leave his national assembly seat and the conservative coalition, and is jointly nominated as president......

- yusuf raza gilani of ppp becomes speaker national assembly.....raza rabbani of ppp becomes senate chairman.....

- hamidm mian and urstruly decide to return to pakistan, and move from becoming keyboard revolutionaries to real ones......

Re #73 bulleya, Pakistan is a feudal country- true, but no feudal can ensure that it remains a feudal country, were it not for the US elite/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state, feudalism in Pakistan would have eclipsed long ago. Today's feudals do not independantly control affairs in Pakistan, they have to leech off the mutual fulfilment of motives of the real power brokers the US elite and their occupation force in Pakistan. On the other hand feudalism is much more insecure than industrial capitalism, so defeating the former should be relatively easy were it not for US/Pak Army meddling in the affairs of the state...

#76 zensufi

Yaar, do not despair. Just change your nick tp zenmuni or aomething along those lines and before you know it, you will have the ole Kaal eating out of your hand again. Really!

#73 Bulleya

Yaar, you now have me all depressed. Perhaps like Gandhiji (or was it the Osho), I need to take mauna-vrata which, in addition to benefitting the soul by calming it, also keeps one from getting into more trouble.

I recognize the BeeB is a very polarizing figure! She is clearly beloved by all those people who showed up to receive her but not by everybody. The question is - who is better than her? Not too many, I am afraid. Therefore, let us hope she does better this time around.

Be that as it may, it is not the army's role to be the ruler or even the kingmaker. They would be better off leaving the average Pakistanis to make their own decisions and should stop trying to "help". They are pretty lousey at it.

Re: # 74

I could see an underlying current of contempt for that man on the street which rather provoked me.
No offense intended but it was just the elitist presumption of some of the Pakistanis who scoff at any mention of democracy or allowing BB to contest the elections with an anti-mullah agenda.
I could see some elites being too uncomfortable with BB leading the nation and setting back the mullah's march towards Pakistan's political power (and the nukes as well).

Re: # 72
Yes, true... political parties everywhere are locked in battles, but most battles are civil and/or diplomatic as oxymoronic as that may sound! Re the sufi bit, yeah... I like to twirl like Dancing Dervishes.

Re: # 69
I second you opinion,corrouption is part of life and one looks at as Lubrication to things move is fine only problem is now lubrication is essential. I agree no point in making too much of corrouption as ultimately we will die and can not carry money at day of judgement. To understand all is to fotgive all.

Re#70
The point which was being made was about the Bhutto cult and the expectation from her from those who were present there. If you carefully read the post you will understand what is being actually said. I was not giving a complete verdict but merely communicating what was being said. And these statements were also covered in the media and aired. The fact is that her support is not because of her stated desire of getting extremism under control and that is not the expectation from rural people who form the main bulk of her support.
Moreover I have also tried to explain the geographical distribution of her support and try to convey why over expecting from her to deliver the goods is not the right idea.
If you disagree, fine but kindly try to first read carefully before coming up with your verdicts about my education level. I can also come up with crude personal remarks but I will refrain from it. I think the central idea behind this site is to encourage concrete dialogue about this issue and not to flaunt our so called better education/intelligence levels and to pass verdicts about others.
That is all-no hard feelings

bjkumar #: "The BeeB is from Sindh....have such widespread appeal?"

...very few....probably only nawaz sharif....the reason is quite simple....there is no system or mechanism for any politician to break through the feudal dominated political structure...even if someone like nawaz sharif comes up, the base of his party remains feudal, as pakistan is still a feudal country......if the "BeeB" steps aside, and someone else takes over PPP, then that individual will have equivalent appeal....which is why she will never step aside....

by the way, she would have been a nobody, had she not been zab's daughter......it is his appeal she is riding on....

"that within feudals, like within any large group, there are a variety of qualities of people."

on this one, i have to totally disagree with you....it's like saying, within rapists there might be a variety of people.....feudalism and its support, inherently, is an evil act......it is based on the exploitation of the poor person.......

why do you think so many pakistani feudals are in politics.....why aren't so many businessmen, lawyers, farmers etc. in politics.....feudals are in politics to ensure pakistan's feudal structure never changes......thus, the whole class is, inherently, evil, when it comes to politics.....

"the decisions must be made by the people or their legitimate representatives - clumsily, hesitatingly, and all that. It is all a part of the process. It can not be imposed on the people."

this is correct.......however, this is not going to happen, if the ruling class is allowed to totally break the law......legislatures and constitutions cannot come into existence on their own......they require judicial oversight......and democracy requires pre-requisites to be in place.......the first of which is end to large scale feudal landholdings.......

"In the past, the BeeB never had REAL power"

she had enough power to hold elections in her own party, at least......and to not carry out massive personal corruption.....it is one thing to make some bucks on the side in some deal.....but to set up so many companies in the virign islands......and buying mansions in europe.......one has to draw the line, somewhere.....

i think you are working under the assumption that bb and her feudal friends and all concerned about the common man and the image of pakistan and what not......these guys are crooks through and through.....they have one concern......to ensure pakistan never progresses from a feudal based country to an urban one......to ensure this, they have to be in political power.......

the net result of this will be a religious revolution.....bb cannot and will not provide good governance.......good governance will mean equal opportunities to all, which will result in an end to feudalism.......the whole purpose of bb and her class is to ensure this never happens.....eventually, people will get tired of the liberal side of pakistan, which is led by feudals and pirs (who, in their own areas are the most illiberal people), and will turn towards the military, as they always do......however, people are fed up of the military also.....who else is left......the religious right....

expecting the feudals to reform pakistan is like asking the fox to gaurd the chickens.....doesn't matter how good or brave or articulate the fox is, its aim is to eat the chickens, not to guard them.....

ppp is good for pakistan......without its feudal and pir leadership....

p.s. if bb comes into power, it may be good for the rich expat and even non-expat pakistanis who live in big cities.....ppp leadership will allow the, "party culture" in lahore, islamabad, karachi etc......something the maulvis would never allow......so the chowk crowd will be ok under bb..... but the country will be back to terrible 90s, on its way to financial defaults, with ppp loyalists filling up all govt. jobs resulting in very inefficient corporations etc.....

sufi ji, political parties everywhere are contantly locked in battles. As a sufi, you are probably more comfortable with constant revolution.

Bhutto's politics aside, look at the impact of this tragedy on Pakistan. Every time such setbacks occur, the people and the country's infrastructure suffer. How is a country to advance if its political parties are constantly locked in battles? The people need to be resilient and move on forward not backward. The word “revolution” means “a turn around” --- Pakistanis need a revolution which focuses on advancement - political, technological, educational, financial…

Re: # 68

"answer was – nothing!! We just love Bhutto and she is his daughter"

You ask a stupid question and any lay man would brush it off with a casual answer than take you seriously. If any one thinks that what the common man thinks is given by that casual answer to that stupid question then that stupid guy needs to get his head examined.
Only a man with little education would probably think that his assumption about a common man on the street get confirmed by such a casual answer to a stupid question.

Re: # 66

ahmedmadani sahib,

..... i have no doubt that corruption was rampant during benazir's government, but it was no more or no less than in any other government ...... i have been hearing people moaning and complaining about corruption even as they slip a ten rupee note to a traffic cop, cheat in the matric exam, send a 'chit' to their friend to give their nephew a job, pay off the labor inspector and the excise inspector and the income tax officer .......... corruption, like kashmir, is in our blood .........

.... i am sure some of the 'cases' against bb are justified, but i am sure many of them are also politically motivated ..... otherwise, even in a country like pakistan, where the justice system has always been the hand maiden of the government in power, they would have been able to convict asif zardari of something in the last 10 years ...... so let's not even talk about that dirty hamam in which we are all naked .....

........ the best thing musharraf can do is legalize corruption and charge a 20% surcharge on black money that goes goes back to the treasury ! ..... then let's get back to the business of returning the country to democracy by letting nawaz sharif, altaph bhai, and all other chore uchakas to come back and contest the elections ......

.... the only people who should not be allowed to stand in the elections are those who pray five times a day (3-4 is okay) and unnecessarily fast during the month of shawal .... that should disqualify the jammat-i-islami but not baitullah mehsud and maulana fazloo - for that we will have to pass a law against bestiality and pederasty ......

So BB is the last hope!!! I think she has just used the situation cleverly to create this perception in both USA and also in some Government quarters.

How can she actually confront extremism and take Pakistan out of these troubled waters is difficult to understand. Firstly the argument that she never had real power and now she will have it. I pose a simple question, which kind of power you are talking about. Power to use army? I think President is already using it and in no way is he going to relinquish it. And if the situation could be solved through power than a military guy is a far better option.

Secondly any democratic leader is accountable to people, use of power does carry a risk of political backlash because the perception is that we are doing it for US interests and nothing else. I know that is not 100% true but it is largely true. And wesay bhee perceptions often matters more when it comes to political backlash. Let me tell you one thing here- people who were dancing in the streets were not dancing because they were thinking that with her arrival terrorism and Jihadism is going to vanish. It’s the euphoria of the daughter of Bhutto coming back. I have asked several supporters as to what do they expect from her. The remarkable answer was – nothing!! We just love Bhutto and she is his daughter.

Her support is built upon Bhutto cult not on her explicit desire to control extremism. For that matter her support mostly lies in rural areas of Sindh and Punjab and these areas do not face the problem of extremism. Extremism is largely concentrated in border area of NWFP and it is targeting mostly army and some cities not villages of Pakistan. Yes the blast took place in her procession but that was because the procession was in Karachi whereas people were from all over the country and at that point concentrated there.

The support is thus immaterial in tackling the actual problem. If you want to politically counter the problem, you need to have mass support in areas where the Jihadi culture is flourishing and also the areas which are being targeted. Both these areas are anti BB for different reasons and therefore her political support is insignificant.

Since the topic is extremism, I will not deliberate upon her feudal status and corruption record. I think that fact is being acknowledged by even those who are supporting her arrival.

Old leash for an older dog...

Backstage, U.S. Nurtured Pakistan Rivals’ Deal
By HELENE COOPER and MARK MAZZETTI

WASHINGTON, Oct. 19 — To lay the groundwork for Benazir Bhutto’s return to Pakistan, some of the highest ranking officials in the Bush administration lavished attention on her as they worked to broker a power-sharing arrangement between Ms. Bhutto and her longtime rival, President Pervez Musharraf.

But the violence that greeted Ms. Bhutto on her return after eight years in exile and the finger-pointing between her camp and General Musharraf’s after the attack on her motorcade on Thursday has raised questions about whether the tenuous deal that the United States helped midwife can survive.

Bush administration officials on Friday publicly played down the potential for a deepening rift between General Musharraf and Ms. Bhutto, pointing out that the opposition leader herself had praised the rescue efforts of Pakistan’s security forces after Thursday’s attack and that General Musharraf had called Ms. Bhutto to make sure she was safe after the blast.

On Friday, American officials acknowledged that there was no clear basis for confidence that the two leaders could work cooperatively. Now that Ms. Bhutto has returned to the country, they acknowledged that their control over events was limited, as Thursday’s bombing showed.

“There’s really not much left to say or do at this point,” one Bush administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss American policy on Pakistan. “But there’s no clear indication that there is a foundation for both sides to work together cooperatively.”

Ms. Bhutto used her time in exile to nurture influential connections within Washington’s power corridors. Still, the Bush administration had long kept her at arm’s length, in large part out of deference to General Musharraf, who cast his lot with the White House after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Two years ago, Ms. Bhutto could not even get the State Department’s top official for South Asia to show up at a dinner party in her honor. (A desk officer in charge of Pakistan was sent instead.)

But in recent months that began to change. The American courtship of Ms. Bhutto included a private dinner and a jet ride with Zalmay Khalilzad, the American ambassador to the United Nations, and, over the last month, several telephone calls to Ms. Bhutto from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

“The Bush administration for a long time decided that the only telephone number in Pakistan they were going to call was Musharraf’s,” said Husain Haqqani, a former adviser to Ms. Bhutto and a professor of international relations at Boston University. “But Bhutto made it clear to them that her phone number was available to call anytime.”

In turning back to Ms. Bhutto, administration officials said they acted with reluctance, after General Musharraf’s own political missteps and the mounting opposition to his military government had weakened his grip on power and threatened to plunge Pakistan deeper into turmoil.

The administration concluded over the summer that a power-sharing deal with Ms. Bhutto might be the only way that General Musharraf could keep from being toppled.

It began quietly nurturing the accord, under which Ms. Bhutto’s party did not boycott General Musharraf’s election last month, and the president issued a decree granting Ms. Bhutto and others amnesty for recent corruption charges, opening the way for her return.

Administration officials say that Ms. Rice stepped up her personal involvement last month, when it seemed possible that General Musharraf’s other political nemesis, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, would make his own bid to return to power, and upset the deal.

In addition to her conversations with Ms. Bhutto, Ms. Rice had several phone conversations with General Musharraf, including one in which she called him at 2 a.m. Pakistan time to urge him not to seize emergency powers.

John D. Negroponte, the deputy secretary of state, and Richard A. Boucher, the top State Department official for Pakistan, each went to Islamabad to press General Musharraf into the deal.

For Ms. Bhutto, years of relentless networking among America’s political, diplomatic and media elite also helped to vault her back into position to lead one of the United States’ most critical allies. “She is a networker par excellence, and she’s been keeping her contacts,” said Karl F. Inderfurth, the former assistant secretary of state for South Asia who dined across the table from her at a dinner party during her last swing through Washington, in September.

Ms. Bhutto was first introduced to America’s political power brokers in 1984, via the dinner party circuit. Peter Galbraith, whose family was friends with the Bhutto family and who at the time was on the staff of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, escorted the visiting Ms. Bhutto around Washington.

he also maintained her close ties to Washington during the Clinton administration, both while she was prime minister and afterward, when she was living in exile in London, Dubai and New York after being forced from power, accused of corruption. In 1998, Ms. Bhutto asked Mark Siegel, a well-connected Democratic Party operative, to set up a meeting for her at the White House with Hillary Rodham Clinton.

One close Bhutto friend described that meeting as “intimate and warm,” and as one that had touched, at Ms. Bhutto’s prompting, on Mrs. Clinton’s personal struggles in the midst of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

Re: # 57 Romair will not be liked by many as he is putting things as there no massaging of facts and straight forward. People have gone tired of this drama/ farce and people will loose interest in heronite of this commedy /tragedy , General hero has already lost his appeal, only America will write how this commedy/tragedy concludes
There only two hopes
1. courts may disqualify general ( hero disqualification)
2. Courts may decide to put white wash corrouption (heroine in trouble)ordinance as not leagal as constiitution does not allow hiding of corrouption.
I do not know law related things but person like YLH needs to give his opinion from lawyer point of view.
If this happens then producers mrs Rice Bush may dismiss both hero and heroine.
Actually only party never ruled is religious party as USA is aftraid of them is wrong. Actually they can control even better look at conservative religious regimes of arab regime. If america becomes too tired of nondeliverance they will go to MMA and they can do better job of controlling borders. This bunch is sure not pretty but they get blamed for things , they never had power to call shots.
The fate of country is in hands of CJ and other judges.

Re: # 63

I agree.

BB was always under pressure of the khakhis. These khakhis are the real bastards responsible for the collapse of civilian structures. Corruption has been part and parcel of the bureaucracy since the days of zimmi-dari system- the zimmidar and his munsifs and the rest always pocketed a part of the public goods, taxes and penalties.

Corruption is a problem of bad governance, and can be fixed by removing the archaic colonial policies of suppression of citizens through inspector raj.

Removing BB and replacing with Mushy did not remove the inspector raj and the colonial structures of supression remain within governmental machinery.

If corruption is an issue then let it be fought out in the public through democracy- debate it and expose the corrupt publically but that does not warrant intervention by any military. Military has no locus standi to intervene. In fact these khakhis from ayub to zia to musharaff should be shot dead publically for treason.

If any one had the locus standi to depose BB - it was the public through elections. Only democracy can fix itself - because the machinery of democracy ensures that self correction takes place.
By constant intervention the khakhis collapsed good civilian democracy and replaced it with a monster that has ensured that mullahs become powerful.
Let BB come and I am sure these mullahs would be made to work for a living .
She would ensure that they remain within their limits and do turn into some who dreams of turning the world into a war between kafirs and momeens.
Let these mullahs do some good hard labour - they need to justify their place in this world through that and not through some lectures on dooms day.

bj,

... you are making more sense as you get older

1) you are right - bb is the only politician who has national appeal .... in the last election, out of the 6 seats in rawalpindi district (which is considered to be pml country and from where 10 corps rules the country) ppp won 2, dependents got two seats and pml (n&q) got one seat each ........ my man sheikh rashid ran as an independent ... sheikh rashid zindabad ! (it is impossible not to love that carmudgeon)

2) feudalism in pakistan is a state of mind - everyone suffers from it to some degree ..... the most common thing you hear on the streets is "oye, tu janda nahin, mein kaun aan!"...... some, like bb, carry it off with a little dignity while others, like raja romair, sound silly with their tall claims of 'personally' knowing people in high places and being privy to state secrets during their 'career' in the military ...... and then there is me - the feudal in me wants to smack the poor raja upside the head and then turn around and kick his khoti (it is an ethnic joke that raja sahib will understand)

3) ....... later, gotta go now

#57

Bulleya,

(1) The BeeB is from Sindh, but is truly a national politician. How many Pakistani leaders have such widespread appeal?

(2) If she is from a feudal class that is simply providence. She can not change that. In your (apparent) bitter dislike of that whole class, you are blinded to the obvious - that within feudals, like within any large group, there are a variety of qualities of people.

(3) Regarding corruption - I have talked earlier. It is an unpleasant but ever-present subcontinental fact of life. The only reason that the khakis may be less corrupt (and they are not immune, in fact) is because they have a guaranteed "job" - so less a "need" for it!

(4) The khakis - because of their training, will always be more efficient decisionmakers. It does not mean those are the right decisions. More important, it gives them no legitimacy - they are still usurpers of power (even benign ones like Musharraf) who have effectively destroyed the supreme law of the land - by vitiating its constitution! In a democratic setup, the decisions must be made by the people or their legitimate representatives - clumsily, hesitatingly, and all that. It is all a part of the process. It can not be imposed on the people.

(5) In the past, the BeeB never had REAL power - not even as much as the NS. She compromised with the khakis of back then - hoping that even a little bit of power was better than no power. She has realized that such power is dead-end. She needs to be a real decisionmaker in order to make a difference and improve the status of Pakistani population. The population still likes her, she has shown durability. What she did not have in the past - and now has aplenty, is the US support for promoting democracy in that country! The BeeB is showing more maturity and better resilience!

Regarding looks - you can have Imran Khan, I will retain the BeeB!

To each, his own! :)

chowk staff,

........ if you can't ban masadi, at least please ban romair for a week or so - he is ruining my breakfast !

...... i think you should ban anyone who changes his name and tries to start a new life, hoping that no one will notice that garbage stinks if you put it in fine china - there is something fishy about these people

Re: # 53

ib mian,

.... the reason that all suicide bombers are pashtoons is because they a