Welcome Home Ms Bhutto

anil#: ...i am always amazed at the naive, and mostly one-sided, view that americans have regarding terrorism and their own actions.......while one can expect naivety from americans born there, one would expect more knowledgeable analyses from expats....

...the usa seems convinced of two things:

- it has never committed any state terrorism....hence anyone targeting americans does so, because, "the are jealous or are nutcases"
- the best way to handle terrorism is through violence and bombings

...it is impossible to convince americans (including apparently expats) that the usa has ever committed terrorism, so it is pointless to debate point 1

......let's take a look at point 2.....the usa has bombed iraq to smithereens, yet it has lost the war, and has created a large group of people ready to commit violence against it

....the usa is on the verge of the same in afghanistan....

....now it is pressurising pakistan to do the same in waziristan, to the point of influecing pakistan's politics....the result will be the same.....pakistan will bomb waziristan......many innocents will get killed.....the population will become anti-pakistan, and will terrorize it....as usa is too far away......

pakistan needs to stay out of american wars....it will be disastrous for pakistan......the current extremism and rise of the religious right is a product of supporting the first war in afghanistan and now the second.......

let the usa fight its own wars at its own expense.......it is these usa wars that create the terrorists, not the other way around

following is an interesting article from news, by nasim zehra:

"This email arrived in my mailbox on October 21. It underscores the human tragedy and the security threat we are confronted with in the tribal areas and beyond:

"Dear sister: Because of a ramshackle power regime in Waziristan, I could not write to you early. Anyhow, as I came back here, sensitive South and North Waziristan agencies were tense and mournful on the eve of Eid as hundreds of people were either killed or they migrated to downtown areas after the latest military offensive in North Waziristan. Tension prevailed throughout Shakai valley, as no one except children was seen wearing new clothes or celebrating Eid with traditional fervour. As I hail from the militancy-struck South Waziristan agency, I am ready to share with you general information about the mayhem in the tribal belt. For your information, the so-called war against terrorism in Waziristan, and in the rest of the tribal belt, is changing into some sort of 'war of liberation' as more and more people who lost their near and dear ones in the military operation are joining resistance forces. Your pen is likely to force the authorities concerned to halt the operation"."

Re: # 294

There is this naive belief that threat to terrorism can be countered by BB owing to her majority. I think the support in the right area is important. Terrorism is largely in NWFP's border areas where PPP does not command any influence. Political solution if opted would require support mass support at the hot bed of terrorism.
The best BB can do is not indulging in street agitation by not joining those who oppose army operation in NWFP.
If that is the support-then I really do not know what to say. The problem is that the events have taken a shape that apparently create this impression and Musharraf and BB are bastion of liberalism and are a pragmatic hope of defeating extremism.
How? is my simple question!!!! Just by not joining those who oppose army action can she effectively tackle extremism!
The army action will be conducted by Musharraf irrespective of the fact that she becomes PM or not. Ever since the army action started PPP has never opposed it. I really do not know what difference it will make to the situation.

Any one reading the chowk clearly can identify those who support the Islamists and mullahs and the stance they are taking in order ensure that the Islamists gain the most out of confusion.

Actually lot of Islamists are hedging their bet on the Islamists within the Army. They are now aligning with the Islamist within the ISI and other commanders in order to find a way to initiate a fresh coup so that Mush is toppled and BB is put behind the bars.
Mush is now facing an imminent rebellion within his army and he has to play his cards well and stay aligned with BB because BB has the popular mandate and the Islamists are waiting to tarnish both of them of making them waste their energies over fighting each other. The game plan has entered the last stage and unless they channelize their energies against the common enemy it is going to be a waste of time.

All this is a mullah game plan with all those Islamists like Zeemax sitting in US and the west and financing them from abroad.

Actually it is a fight between the Islamo-fascists and the rest of the liberal munafiqoons of the world.

shankar #: "From what you are saying, I conclude these pirs have brainwashed these "disciples".....taken for a ride."

...it is not a question of just brainwashing......most of these disciples are dirt poor villagers, uneducated and all......they have, for generations, been worshipping the ancestors of these pirs......they don't know any better.......and the pirs have been exploiting them......

i think they deserve a lot better.......they need to freed of these pirs......which will not happen, if everyone keeps supporting benazir.......this is why these pirs will never allow education and prosperity to reach their areas.....educated and prosperous people will never follow them.....

now the wealthier, and more educated amongst these disciples (a minority) are brainwashed, as you have said.....

"I fear that if the process of such democracy has jaded people, there is going to be a revolution, & the jihadis will come on top...."

i would not put too much faith in newsweeks etc. regarding pakistan......americans think tanks, expats, etc. know very little about the outside world.....

.....as i have always argued, pakistan's boundaries have never been around religion....there has never been a fight of moderates vs. fanatics etc....it is a phenomenon foreign to pakistan and has been imported....

the actual dividing lines in pakistan are (were) ethnic and provincial; not relgious......

.....this is why, while i have always been against mullahs in pakistan, i am equally against secularists in pakistan (though not in canada).....both these groups push alien ideas into pakistan.......and as i had always argued, these two ideas would lead to nothing but polarisation, around religion, which is exactly what has happened.......

.......pakistan is, basically, a sufi-ist based muslim society.....it is neither orthodox nor secular......this is where the overwhelming majority of pakistanis sit......it is bulleh shah and data ganj baksh; not ata turk or abdul wahab.......

......no major political party will openly state they are secular.....similarly, up til the last elections, maulvis could not even win 2% of the seats in the assembly......a religious figure had much better chance of getting elected in usa and india, than in pakistan.....

.....the only religious violence seen in pakistan was tiny terrorist groups carrying out shia-sunni violence......pakistan has the largest ratio of shias and sunnis living together in the world......and there has not been any social violence of one community against another.....infact can you even highlight any social violence and killings of the tiny hindu community, in pakistan?

.....the mauvlis won elections when the usa started, indiscriminately, bombing afghanistan........they opposed it, and won two provinces.....a gigantic jump in seats......on top of that musharraf placed, himself, in the other extreme and sided totally with the usa.....with the support of the chowk crowd types and expats.....

this has divided the society......the non-existent orthodox/moderate line is now becoming real......benazir has also jumped on this bandwagon to get us support.....so now it will become totally real......this is despite the fact that neither the army cadre nor the ppp voters are pro-america, at their core......

people in pakistan (including me) want a totally independent foreign policy.......however, now the whole govt. is being formed in the usa.....

this is what is going to lead to the rise of the religious parties, even further.....not jihadists, like you are saying......but the religious right - well-organized non-militant political parties like ji and jui etc. (the social set-up urstruly supports)......

if the musharraf/benazir, "you forgive my sins and i forgive your sins" relationship thrives, with us backing, i think within the next decade the maulvis will gain power - something which would have been totally impossible for them to do in pakistan, had events been allowed to take thier normal course, without foreign interventions in the country's foreign policy and political affairs......

#214 by tahmed32

It is a dearly-held myth among Indians that Pakistani could care less about Indians. Gujerat is the other side of the moon as far as most Pakistanis are concerned, and the only time I (e.g.) have mentioned them are on chowk (in order to help Indians climb down from their moral pedestal).

Phew!! I'm getting tired of explaining this to you. Your compatriot Borivili (and he isn't the only one) sheds tears for Indian Muslims day in and day out (look at his posts on THIS very board). And here you are telling us that Pakis don't care a damn. Looks like the only posts you read are your own.

cb #298 Democracy is always "work in progress", and virtually every democracy has politicians beholden on specific issues to the "special interests".

Nevertheless, it is not mere idealism to talk of "power to the people". This is the litmus test: When politicians have to compete with one another to become the head of government, power is with the people. Anything else, and "power comes from the barrel of the gun" (to use Mao's phrase, and Mao understood dictatorship quite well being one himself).

Based on this litmus test, it is not correct to say that the people never had the power - Pakistan has had national elections in the past and politicians have had to compete with one another to become the head of government.

And even if did have not, that is hardly an argument to deny to Pakistanis the basic right to vote incumbents out of office that is possessed by people in an ever-increasing number of countries around the world. And "power to the people" is the best bet for ensuring peace and stability over time in a nation, as history shows.

Chachoo as a concept i agree with you that power should come with checks and balances, and democracy as a concept however faulty is better than any other form of govt.

Practically i think anils right, democracy or not the Mush/BB duo is the best we can do for now in terms of governance.

Its probably this realization that has nearly everyone in pakistan so pissed since most people hate at least one of them :)

....But i must say that 'restoring power to the people" makes it sound like people used to have power in pakistan ...i dont remember that ever being the case even when we did have an on paper democracy. Infact i think it is the depraved economic, political and social corruption of our prior democracies which have put us in the mess we are in today. They made moderate governance look so wretched that even one eyed mullahs started to look beautiful in comparison.

Romair,

From what you are saying, I conclude these pirs have brainwashed these "disciples" to such an extent that they are unable to know when they are taken for a ride. Well,if thats the case, I guess they deserve their fate. It goes against the grain of human nature,though, peasants can be fooled for just so long.

Urstruly's explanation that fuedal goons make sure that the vote is stamped in the right place sounds more plausible. The most critical part of an election is that the vote should be anonymous, otherwise its a joke.

I fear that if the process of such democracy has jaded people, there is going to be a revolution, & the jihadis will come on top.

I think the US knows that too. Have you read the latest Newsweek? The cover story:"The Most Dangerous Nation In The World Isnt Iraq. Its Pakistan"

http://www.newsweek.com/id/57485

cb #293 There is no denying all that you say. Musharraf has other things to his credit - getting rid of the DC and introducing local democracy; the emergence of a lively and free press.

But now it is time for him to go - he has enjoyed unaccountable far too long for his own good and so his basic weakness (i.e. disdain for the ordinary people) been magnified and crossed limits to the extent that the Chief Justice finally stood up to him.

And you are right on Benazir too. But I am not counting on Benazir personally to bring back the rule of law in Pakistan. Rather I am counting on her return being part of the process (per the post I referred to earlier) that is the best bet we have of restoring power to its rightful owners, namely the people of Pakistan.

Re: # 289
The government ban on crowd explains the main difference in crowds. Where were the crowds when Bhutto was hanged and yet they flocked to Airport in 1986 and 2007 when his daughter came back. In 1992 when BB was at the height of popularity, she along with the help of other oppositions tried to have a long march, but could not as government arrested every PPP leader and did not let the processions take place by dispersing people at the root.
Look PPP has always been an organized party with the ability to bring in crowds, and this time despite the impression which is being created that president did not want the receptor to be big, PPP was fully facilitated. Just see those banners, sign boards etc! Every commercial sign board was allowed by government to be used as PPP banner.
If government wanted to stop people from coming you would not have even seen one tenth of the crowd. After all people did not come out when ZAB was hanged as Zia regime through arrests was able to prevent mass gathering.
Lastly, the ability to bring in crowd may only be one indicator but not an exhaustive indicator of the vote bank. NS’s main vote bank is the urban lower middle and middle class which is not the type which comes out on the streets the way PPP’s supporters do. If crowds were allowed at NS reception, it would have been a big reception though not as big as that of PPP. But it would have been big enough to remove the doubts.

Dost sahib & Hamidm sahib:

Like it or not, Pakistani politics is not about democracy. It is more about governance in difficult times of threats - phantom or real - from political Islam. The divide in consensus in Pakistan on what should be key issues, like what constitutes terrorism, how should it be tackled - will dwarf what divides Republicans and Democrats here, or Labor and Conservatives in England. Even under defective, democratic institutions, like India, fair elections can be fought with such a clear divide. Afterall Indira Gandhi was voted out of power there.

Pakistani democracy and governance are not conjoined twins, and would not be mere twins for a long time. The issue as I had pointed, based on news and opinions, to Dost and HP (yes, even him) earlier that Musharraf (=Army) and BB (=PPP) partnership is the most stable moderate governing force. It is coming true. It seems to be based on a belief that PPP commands civilian majority, and Army commands testasterone power - so important in Pakistan.

Both are needed to tackle terrorism. This my friends, is ground realities, other scenarios / combinations will create more problems for Pakistan.

doesnt matter chachoo...reluctantly partially or whatever can you deny he had the political will and political effectiveness to do what no one has done before him?
asma jehangir rocks but she was around during BB's time too....how come this bill wasnt passed then?

BB can not get feudals to pass any bill that doesnt fork swill down their miserable throats. Since that is what pathetically passes for "liberal democracy" in pakistan i sincerely hope Mush can keep a tight leash on them and short of physical violence i would support anything he does.

oh and regarding civil war? chachoo i dont know why you think the civil war is "democrats" versus...erm.. "republicans" its not about democracy at all ...except maybe for you :) So how did you get the impression that BB just by being here would bring peace? if anything she has promised more war. Ofcourse just by her being here its bye bye economy and hello private swiss bank accounts or can you deny thats what happened in her last stint?

Re: # 192

hamidm

But pirs or syeds are generally on top. Even Communist Party of Pakistan was once led by Syed Sajjad Zaheer and its Student Wing by Syed Zuhair Rizwi. If you go further all intellectual ledership is provided by semitic race, like Karl Marx, Frieud, Einstein, Lenin, to name a few in modern times even. None of them was a landlord or a Pir, as per common terminology.

# 176 by bulleya

Your name always remind me of Bulleh Shah, the greatest humanist of the world. He was a Syed but himself a 'Mureed' of an Araeen pir.

Btw, your name suggests that you are a mureed of Bulleh shah like myself. Is it so.

There was also G.M. Syed Marhoom also. I saw even Hindus touching his feet and calling him 'Saaeen', 'Saaeen'. It were only his qualities of heart and head for which people belonging to all casts and religions adored him.

In fact every institution can be abused by selfish people as was done with Peeri Mureedi by professional peers.

Re Mullah32 #261

[cb #257 please leave the "godhra excuse" to those who are not smart enough to be admitted to medical school.]

Abso.......lutely!

Those who know the Koran well enough to be admitted to Al Azhar University, Cairo know that all kaffirs are to be treated like bakras during Eid!

Re: # 289

dost,

..... some years ago i was part of a union/management meeting as a consultant .... as these meetings usually go, the committee chairman stood up, threw his papers across the table, said, "fuck you!" and walked out, slamming the door behind him .......

... later that day, over dinner, i asked the plant manager, "what the heck was all that about !" ..... he got really iritated and said, " you know, i can fuck that guy in five minutes - all i have to do is put my arm around him and walk doen the main aisle of the plant ....... he would be finished!" .........

...... i guess the plant manager was a lot smarter than the us administration ..... they have fucked poor benazir by putting their arm around her ......if they really wanted her to win in the elections they should have invited nawaz sharif for dinner at the white house ....... and he would have come