Indian Exceptionalism: Colonial Stereotypes and Postcolonial Realities

" Thus, to espouse capitalism without qualification is suddenly to be a good Indian!
"

And you blame us??? Chacha Nehru and his progeny inflicted socialism on us leaving a very bad taste in our mouth. Are you someone who was spared the vagaries of a sociaist economy because you are too young? Or did you grow up in unfettered capitalism and hanker for a golden era that never existed?

antihistory,

Having reread your piece, I was wondering if you cared to discuss how the theme of exceptionalism (if it relates) might apply to particular crises in contemporary history: points of Hindu-Muslim tension, struggles over land and resource ownership, or other examples.

Wheel O time says
#92 Posted by KaalChakra on October 28, 2007 11:01:30 am
dash_dot, american universities - even the best of them - are full of all sorts of weird people, in the name of 'diversity.'


But there ARE a few very good researchers among social walas too. Their distinguishing mark is that they do not reject the scientific approach.


I totally agree with you. In fact this diversity results in "progress" as nothing is ever rejected oturight as being too way out.

What I quoted there was from a paper by Professor Sokal from NYU. It was a hoax paper, which he wrote to show the decrepit nature of "some of the guys" in the social sciences. He later owned upto to this hoax.

Here is the link to the full epsiode: http://physics.nyu.edu/~as2/

The whole page relates to this and the debates that followed it. They make an interesting read and I would recommend it for its many insights.

In fact what we often see today on the "not-so-margins" is the wholesale hoaxing of people. This is done by using mumbo-jumbo, big words, complex sentences - and a whole load of "self-referencing" to create an aura of high-mindedness.

At its core, social sciences (sociology, linguistics, etc) should and must analyse what has happened and what is happening currently within a society or groups of societies. For it provides us with a valuable set of tools to lay out policies for the betterment of the society.

A good handout on this is available here http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/sociology.html

or check this out http://sociology.berkeley.edu/index.php?page=intro

Very easy to read, understand, and assimilate.

This is my point. The rest is all, as they say a lot of .....

Re: # 92

Kaalchakra - this quote is from a paper by Professor Sokal from NYU. It was a hoax paper, which he wrote to show the decrepit nature of the social sciences. He later owned upto to this hoax.

Here is the link to the full epsiode: http://physics.nyu.edu/~as2/

The whole pages relates to this and the debates that followed it. They make an interesting read and I would recommend it for its many insights.

dash_dot, american universities - even the best of them - are full of all sorts of weird people, in the name of 'diversity.' :)


But there ARE a few very good researchers among social walas too. Their distinguishing mark is that they do not reject the scientific approach.

"Dismantling the myth of uniqueness, while preserving an emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs, may be a first step toward thinking about the sources of violence in Indian society."

There is nothing in exceptionalism that warrants response by violence. The sources of violence are not on account of exceptionalism but on account of politics of domination.
Unless and until such violence is part of the exceptionalist discourse like in Islam.
Identity and uniqueness are part of every society. There are common grounds between different societies and there are also uniqueness within them. So what 'myth' you are trying to break is not clear to us.
It is almost a tautology to say :-

""My take on it: Indian society may be exceptional, but only to the extent that any and every other society in the world is also exceptional. "

I think all of us are still trying to understand what priceless pieces of insight your article is trying to convey.

"Hindus and Muslims were two different nations and peoples who could not live together; Indians
were primarily a religious people or religious peoples; Indian communities were prone to violence; Indians were uncivilized, even if in an earlier golden age they had been civilized; liberal values such as democracy or freedom of thought and expression were unknown to Indians."

Hey, all these were not mere stereotypes but were representations which very much true and part of the indian society. British colonial representation only exaggerated this part and turned in into one whole representation of indian society.

The "exceptionalism" of the traditions were a very much part of cultural reality. To say that the exceptionalism of TNT was a product of British colonial representation and not a product of exceptionalism of Quran is absolutely wrong.

Gandhi was a product of romantic liberal thought and there is NOTHING innate about the 'secularism' of indian society.

The author must try and use clear language and define the words and avoid hiding his presumptions in jargons.

Hey we need to have something in plain language or you need to publish in a social studies journal where they understand words like "exceptionalism"

BTW that #88 is a QUOTE from an academic journal of the kind favoured on this board....here is the reference

Social Text #46/47, pp. 217-252 (spring/summer 1996). a leading North American journal of cultural studies -- whose editorial Collective includes such luminaries as Fredric Jameson and Andrew Ross

Dig a bit deeper to read it all...

Re: # 57 this might be of interest to many here.....


""There are many natural scientists, and especially physicists, who continue to reject the notion that the disciplines concerned with social and cultural criticism can have anything to contribute, except perhaps peripherally, to their research. Still less are they receptive to the idea that the very foundations of their worldview must be revised or rebuilt in the light of such criticism. Rather, they cling to the dogma imposed by the long post-Enlightenment hegemony over the Western intellectual outlook, which can be summarized briefly as follows: that there exists an external world, whose properties are independent of any individual human being and indeed of humanity as a whole; that these properties are encoded in ``eternal'' physical laws; and that human beings can obtain reliable, albeit imperfect and tentative, knowledge of these laws by hewing to the ``objective'' procedures and epistemological strictures prescribed by the (so-called) scientific method."

"But deep conceptual shifts within twentieth-century science have undermined this Cartesian-Newtonian metaphysics; revisionist studies in the history and philosophy of science have cast further doubt on its credibility; and, most recently, feminist and poststructuralist critiques have demystified the substantive content of mainstream Western scientific practice, revealing the ideology of domination concealed behind the façade of ``objectivity''. It has thus become increasingly apparent that physical ``reality'', no less than social ``reality'', is at bottom a social and linguistic construct; that scientific ``knowledge", far from being objective, reflects and encodes the dominant ideologies and power relations of the culture that produced it; that the truth claims of science are inherently theory-laden and self-referential; and consequently, that the discourse of the scientific community, for all its undeniable value, cannot assert a privileged epistemological status with respect to counter-hegemonic narratives emanating from dissident or marginalized communities. These themes can be traced, despite some differences of emphasis, in Aronowitz's analysis of the cultural fabric that produced quantum mechanics; in Ross' discussion of oppositional discourses in post-quantum science5; in Irigaray's and Hayles' exegeses of gender encoding in fluid mechanics; and in Harding's comprehensive critique of the gender ideology underlying the natural sciences in general and physics in particular.""

Re: # 85
beej you be red-flagged as yet..... some harridan has been going around red-flagging posts

Re: # 83

nb
very correct in what you say. This is what I have experienced here in the UK and in Canada (where there are great numbers).

Infact compared to the parsees and other small groups these guys ran at the first sign of freedom in the subcontinent (both pakistan and india) .

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nb,

your interesting post raises a lot of questions-what factors contribute to anglo indians, dalits, jains, parsis, jews, muslims, sikhs migration or entrenchment within india.

#51, because Anglo-indians really are a very very small minority-there are many more Jains and Sikhs. I agree with you though that no matter what, people have the right to express themselves, and they do express themselves. Are you aware that they have 2 members of Parliament nominated from their community? However, in a democracy, it is unfortunately numbers that count. I grew up with a lot of Anglo Indians, so I think I know more about them than most people.
And Dotty is right, large numbers of them and their equivalents in Sri Lanka ran out crying at the end of British rule. Think of Charmaine Solomon, the well known Sri Lankan-Australian cookbook writer who shudders she left Sri Lanka just in time because Bandranaike died the next year. To me that is as stupid as someone saying they escaped America in 1962 just in time.
And in Australia, I run into them all the time, still grateful to have left Gorakhpur and Agra and Bardhhaman/Burdwan, and talking about how well they have been accepted. They tell me that, but still complain of racism when they are talking amongst themselves.
For all that, there are a fair few of them who chose to stay on in India, you only need a visit to The Dalhousie Insitute in Calcutta to see that.

Re hamidm2 #61

[... the only point i am trying to make is that if the common man cannot understand what the intellectuals are talking about, what good is it ? ....... should the common man just trust the intellectuals to think for them while they go about doing the grunt work ?......... why don't we all just bend over and let the denizens of this or that think tank or institute have at it !]

But then, wouldn't that be the kind of exceptionalism that Rohit Chopra and Samina Shah are railing against?

Re antihistory #40

[Is it a bad thing that Dalits use the same logic to gain political capital and voice? The quick answer: it is not a bad thing only as long as that does not shut out other voices, within or outside the Dalit community. But already there is some evidence that some segments of the highly fractured (by region, language, gender, and religion etc.) community will benefit more than others from this narrative.]

Yeah; like Lallu Prasad Yadav, M. Karunanidhi, Murasoli Maran and his children, and above all, Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi Vadera, have benefitted and will continue to benefit.

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Re hamidm2 #23

[........ and don't pull a homi bhaba on me because if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classification can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality.]

I take my hat off to you. I had you pegged down as the guy who can talk for an hour with just 6 Powerpoint slides and who says things like "...vertical and horizontal integration of business units.... empowering key decision-makers along the entire spectrum of the organization.... monetizing business opportunities", etc. To think that you can pull a Samina Shah on us, and on Samina herself!

Re: # 74

Please let it be known for the record that the interactor known as "Dash_Dot" spends a great deal of time and energy posting threads about and to me, despite my repeated wish not to interact with him/her.

let me also confess - before neembuji demands (and gets a Legal Order from the Court of Chowk-Staff) (as she has done with the bans on UP)

: I am not a professor, or a lecturer. Just a lowly humble guy - your average joe-blog) making my ends meet one-way or the other - and I donot even have the privilege of being a "PowerPointtologist" that is reserved for my betters.

Re: # 72

That should not be a case with an article on chowk.

Either the guy makes it interesting for us to go and read the background material, or take the trouble to explain this stuff to us. Its like expecting you to understand how Riemann sums can be used to approximate integrals, and the use of compact support to show that some kinds of neural networks can approximate a whole set of non-linear functions, with out a basic introduction to some of these terms and topics. (Let me assure that this is of great practical value and has a lot of economic potential - in fact you are subjected to this everyday of your life). But it is not done out of shear respect.

So please......try another trick on...

we might be numbskull's but not fools. we might have a limited understanding of the vocabulary used, but do have a reasonably good sceptical mindset to question the validity of the mind droppings going on.

Re: # 63

ROTFL neembu mohterama!

You are very quickly impressed with a few titles. Come, come now, that is not the kind of analytical and skeptical mind-set we expect of you. (and yes thats a compliment)

Let me say this - for you to consider this to be an academic journal shows your naivety.

This is a place where common folk not necessarily endowed with titles (I am one of them let me assure you) come to read and understand and perhaps assimilate ideas and views different from theirs.

(the rest _ as I have just noticed has been said by Wheel O Time and Hamidm2 (Hope you are sufficiently impressed with his ability to outdo you guys with his vocabulary and prose and analysis ;-) - Hamimd2 you are one heck of a guy....) have said it better than I can....

OK, neembu, I will do that.

In the meanwhile, it will be GREAT if 'professor' chopra took time to explain a little better what he meant by Indian exceptionalism, why that term has been used, and by whom, and why he does not believe in it. Because, if all this is clear only to those who read Leila Ahmed first, professor chopra would have already lost most of us.

In any case, my objections were only about the methods professor chopra uses to make his point. One can actually argue any thing and make a decent case for it.

Thanks for listening.

Re: # 71

I did not find the language, ideas, sentence structure, concepts, etc. to be unclear. Let me put it into perspective: google Leila Ahmed's Women and Gender in Islam. I believe a chapter from this book is available on the net. Read a few paragraphs of her work and see if you can understand it.

Before you claim that you cannot, please know that I assign this book to juniors and seniors at a State University. They may not know interdiscplinary studies, or the subject matter, but they understand her framework, her discussion and her analysis. Hope that puts this whole discussion in perspective for you.

Neembu, I cannot deny that 'interfaith dialogue' isn't my personal favorite subject.

Self interrogation, yes, that will be very helpful, but what is the point of that if most Indians can't understand what the interrogation is about?

Look, neembu, of ALL these chowkies here, Professor Chopra chooses to (or can) 'interrogate' his subject with you. Now, there is nothing against you, but this seems like someone who is happy living in his ivory tower, and supposedly talking to himself.

"Social" scientists ought to be a bit relevant, to talk to us ordinary people, in our language sometimes. Or at least be able to argue their points of view with people like us, who are often ignorant, and always bigoted.

If professor chopra does not have the confidence or the ability to explain and defend himself among us commoners, it is hard to return any respect.

Hope you see where some of us are coming from.

Re: # 69

but thats the whole point, isnt it? to find point of intersection. my fields include cultural studies, so i was able to understand his explication and what i didnt understand, i asked politely.

you could ask politely, but you chose to insult someone whose work seems to move towards positive and honest self identity and the effort of interfaith dialogue.

or do you resent that this work is so self/state interrogative?

neembu, the first thing "professor' chopra should have done was to explain what he meant by Indian Exceptionalism. Then he should have traced, for us, a little bit of the term's history, if any. Then he should have told us WHY he does not believe in it.

As of now, I do not know (and one guesses, many do not know) what the 'professor' is talking about. You said something, and the man quickly agreed, supposedly seeing one possible sympathizer.

IMHO, that is not the mark of a mature mind, but I am sure we can all learn from him if he clarified his ideas.

Re: # 65

and yet we can also look to hafiz's blasphemous assertion that God favors religions besides Islam, Oludah Equino's narrative of enslavement as Thomas Jefferson performed moral incontinence, Aisha's authorship in the Hadith.

These are also voices from the margins.

Re: # 64

I don't think you have offered any critique of prof. chopra's ideas except invective. kindly explicate where you found this theoretical framework lacking. your response will be evaluated on its' production of evidentiary support.

# 65, ...or, for children only.

Re: # 63

... you know what is really dangerous about these 'social scientist' ?........ some guy like lenin or stalin gets hold of stuff by marx and engels and goe berserk ! ..... or, even worse, a mob gets hold of some stuff by rousseau and goes on a rampage .... or, why go far, a cave dweller gets hold of the work of god and starts a holy war ....

.... i would suggest that all 'great' works of social science should carry the warning label, "not for politicians, prophets, peasents and children"

LOl, neembu ji, you are too quickly impressed with these 'professors.' :)

neembu, chowk is not an academic board. Most of us do not come to chowk to read up on what others are doing in their fields. Academic works or qualifications don't and shouldn't impress too many here. What concerns us here is specific ideas different interactors present before us.

From all that "Professor" chopra has written here (and he may have written pretty good stuff elsewhere), "professor" chopra comes across as a moron, a third-rate thinker who would be laughed out of any meeting of serious people.

Hope you won't take this personally on 'professor' chopra's behalf. One is referring merely to the ideas 'professor' chopra has presented here, not to him as a person or researcher in his field (where he may be an established great man, a thought leader, a path breaker, or what we in India call a 'Yug Purush.')

Re: # 61

Perhaps if you read up on what this author is doing in his field rather than insulting him, his work and any one else who understands it, you might find that the "social science" and comparative cultures fields are not what you characterize them to be.

I have to say, its embarrassing to see how most of the interactors on his board are behaving. I'd try to couch my interactions with you in more positive terms, but frankly, I'm a bit tired of the same old carlin act.

Prof. Chopra, this is your board. Please continue to write at chowk; clearly your pieces being published here are at least one good move by chowk.com. I would apologize for the behavior of these chowkies, but I've come to realize that I'm not responsible for them, or anyone else's self esteem issues.

***********

The problem with post colonial - post modern theory of Indian exceptionalism is that it tries to continue the theory that juxtaposes realities and facts and make them facts and realities.. I'm not going to say and neither agree that it is just the intellectual theorising of exceptionalisms (i.e colonial construction and later acceptance as post-colonial realities ) that leads to Shiv Sena and Hindu Muslim riots..

**********

Re: # 59

saminashah,

.... i have never claimed to be an academic or a researcher - i am just a lowly powerpointologist ......

... the only point i am trying to make is that if the common man cannot understand what the intellectuals are talking about, what good is it ? ....... should the common man just trust the intellectuals to think for them while they go about doing the grunt work ?......... why don't we all just bend over and let the denizens of this or that think tank or institute have at it !

.... but then you will protest and say, "no, no ..... we don't want to think for you guys; we are simply observing how you guys behave and trying to understand what motivates you to make a fool out of yourself; of course, we would like it very much if you behaved properly, like we want you to, but you don't have to" ..... horse puckey! ..... i think you guys are fascists and i don't want you anywhere near my kids!

Re: # 55

I remember Samar to be one of the first cultural productions of its' kind in NYC.

I'm starting to wonder when we're going to see the academic and or research work of some of the interactors here. Hamid, Anil, Doddy, Kaal, please feel free to submit your scholarship to chowk.com, with your credentials, etc. so that it can be evaluated.

Until then, show some self respect.

Re: # 54

anil mian,

......... and you went to harvard! ..... thank god my older kid didn't get in ! ..... maybe you can get saminasha or rohit bhabha to explain it - i don't have the foggiest idea ! :)

"You social people should (quit) trying so hard to be intellectual! and get on with life."

"Sokol...."

Dash_Dot, I swear in the name of all that is unholy, there are at least SOME social people who are quite intelligent. And although I hate to drop names, I will do so this one (and last) time, only to save the reputation of a whole group of innocent people, despite Rohit bhai's best efforts on Chowk.

In an earlier incarnation I knew (fairly well) some folks in the sociology departments of Cornell and Stanford. Granted, these people were hardly grunt workers, being acknowledged leaders in their fields and their departments.

We are looking at a very very different kind of "social intellectualism" here.

Peace.

hamidm:

........ and don't pull a homi bhaba on me because if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classification can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality.


I was literally ROFL. :-)

re # 49

Neembu.

Thanks. I am not too familiar with Appiah's work though I have read other scholars who comment on his work. I know his recent work on multiculturalism has fostered an engaging debate.

A quick response to your other question: there are many interesting initatives in many fields of art, literary and scholarly production that involve the kind of collaboration you speak of. I think South Asia Citizen's Web which has a weekly wire may be a good starting point. Magazines like the Little Magazine, Himal, Seminar may also be a good starting point.

Regards
Rohit Chopra

Re: # 23

Hamidm Sahib:

"........ and don't pull a homi bhaba on me because if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classification can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality...."

What is this?

My head was already spinning out of control after reading Rohit and Neembu's mutual admiration society essay / dialogs.

Please stay with humor..

Re:#52

Leila Ahmed's point is very important.

Re: # 50

Leila Ahmed pointedly reminds readers that the field of Islam and women is in dire need of archival and reconstructionist scholarship BY women of Muslim descent, and yet, you'll see too many Muslim men being indifferent.

Re: # 41

nb, numbers are one aspect, but focusing on only that aspect serves to close the conversation rather than opening it to relevant exploration. why wouldnt anglo indians be a part of the discourse as are parsis, jews, jains, dalits, muslims, etc.?

Dalrymple criticizes Indian historians as follows:

(This is regarding the fact that no one had studied the Mutiny papers)

"For at a time when ten thousand dissertations and whole shelves of Subaltern Studies have carefully and ingeniously theorised about orientalism and colonialism and the imagining of the Other (all invariably given titles with a present participle and a fashionable noun of obscure meaning - Gendering the Colonial Paradigm, Constructing the Imagined Other, Othering the Imagined Construction, and so on ) not one Ph.D. has ever been written from the Mutiny Papers.."

i.e. all these "intellectual brahmins" refuse to do good old dirty archival work.

antihistory,

Re: # 40

Interesting! Have you read any of Anthony Appiah's work and if so, are there any concepts, theories that relate to some of the work that you are conducting?

I checked out your blog; looking forward to reading about your research and project work-it sounds worthy and exciting. I understand that you have collaborated with Vijay Prashad (who btw is read by Asian and African American scholars at my institution!). Would you mind writing a bit about how this piece fits into your work as a whole?

Finally, have there been collaborative efforts b/n various marginalized Indian communities at narrative making (ie. academia, grassroots social action, art projects, etc) that speak to your field?

Thanks for sharing your scholarship!

Rohit and Neembu just one word Sokal.

You social people should trying so hard to be intellectual! and get on with life.

Re: # 42

Once more stop being so considerate ...wheel O time. This young man is trying to get into the knickers of some bright young girl......and you are breaking all his arrows in the quiver.....he wrote this article to test the H2Os here.....stop muddying it so much......

Re: # 40
Now I know you are a real charlatan. If you know anything about Indian History, you would realise that the Anglos looked upon themselves as being british and a cut above the Indians. In fact they were and even today many of them are rather racist in their views. Please read up on your effing history before you start thinking....

When Independence was granted to Indian these guys ran in droves from the country - leaving some parts of it in dire straits. I should know it (and this is first hand stuff here). Once you turn yourself into a quisling then you should stop complaining.

Infact Post Independent India has been very accomodating to these idiots.

If you are an anglo stop whinning and get on with life you little twerp.

#43 got cut up by chowk....

wheel o time you olde coot (LoL)

with one bound you got yourself a lifetimes pass to keep visiting the hallowed portals of la-la-land of the sociologists.


Hamidm2 ya. you sock it to them.

#43 got cut up by chowk....

wheel o time you olde coot

Wheel O time you olde coot!

nb, excuse me, but it is very rude of you to inject some common sense in this uncommon dialogue.

We are learning about Indian Exceptionalism here. In any other country, a community like Anglo Indians would be part of all national discourse.

Re: # 27
so she'll be zipping around town collecting tickets and losing her licence?
neembu, Anglo-Indians are marginalised because they re a tiny, tiny community. The only people that probably even know they exist are Indians who went to Christian schools.

Re: # 38
(# 37)

Neembu

Thanks. You have answered the questions better than I could have and raise very important issues.

Is it a bad thing that Dalits use the same logic to gain political capital and voice? The quick answer: it is not a bad thing only as long as that does not shut out other voices, within or outside the Dalit community. But already there is some evidence that some segments of the highly fractured (by region, language, gender, and religion etc.) community will benefit more than others from this narrative.

I also think that Dalits are subject to the same criticism as any other Indian community.

Re: you other point, about anglo-Indians. Anglo-Indian identity provokes all sorts of anxieties about what defines Indian identity.

Two stereotypes about Anglo-Indians are (a) that they are not really 'true' Indians because of their partly European lineage and (b) during colonial rule their loyalty lay with the British.

But exactly the same points can be made about every Indian community

Every Indian community claims that other Indian groups are 'outsiders' and insists they are the original Indians.

Secondly, during colonial rule many Indian/ South Asian communities defined themselves as loyal to the British: in the carnage after the revolt of 1857 as historian Rajat Kanta Ray points out, the bhadralok Bengali Hindu students in Indian colleges prayed for the victory of the British; Syed Ahmed Khan insisted Muslims were friends of the British; the 'martial races' of Sikhs, Jats, and Gurkhas were considered extremely loyal; Christians and Parsis also
swore allegiance to the British.

Of course everyone of these communities also participated in the anticolonial struggle.

But if one questions Anglo-Indian loyalty to India, one has to question the loyalty of other groups too. This, I think, is one main reason for the silence about them.

Regards
Rohit

Re: # 32

because labor, even intellectual, is unglamorous and tedious.

antihistory,

also, why are anglo indians not absorbed into the national narrative? are they symbols of colonial transgression, unplaceable entities in colonial/colonized/postcolonial structures? is their otherness to mainstream india indicated by paticular policies and are there places in which they enact agency?

Re: # 33

antihistory,

so in appropriating the conceptual language of this dominant voice, the Dalit community replicates/works within the system of dominant narrative and performs the same construction, only in their case, their history/identity is foregrounded.

Is this completely a bad thing? If I understand your thesis correctly, replicating/appropriating the dominant narrative enacts a kind of binary dialogue which is antithetical to development of Indian plurality in its multiplicity of voices, identities, experiences and narratives.

But is there nothing interrogative in a minority's usage of the dominant voice? I'm thinking of Audre Lorde's oft quoted using the master's tools to dismantle the master's house?

Rohit, you prove your utter brilliance everytime you write a couple of words.

From # 35, we learn the following about Indian Exceptionalism:

(1) Hindu Right and (non-Hindu) Indian Left don't consider each other 'true' Indians.

(2) SC/ST are "shut out" by both Hindu Right and (non-Hindu) Left.

(3) SC/ST now call all others not true Indians.

(4) Indian political discourse doesn't recognize Anglo Indians.

(5) 1-4 constitute Indian Exceptionalism.

hamidm sahib, that is simple too. At the very top, there can't be a greater number of intellectuals than one can count on one's fingers. And on chowk, all of us are lucky to have neembu ji and rohit bhai.

Re: # 29 Racism is completely dominating all west. And browns are flooded with bad stuff.They act as buffer between whites and blacks and get squeezed by both. Like maximum des people are killed by black people as des people make money on backs of people by selling them venom of alcohol and black muslims have found that alcohol is problem and desis are spreading that stuff as agents of white to destroy black race. Now here brainwashed desi do not understand he is more near to blacks culturally and colorwise than their master white people. He becomes "peon" of wast as friend and great thinking person on clear lines like Mr.Masadi. I first ponted and supported his line of thinking but they just bann him to silence him very mean ways of elites. Now our caused of pakistani interest can advanced lot in USA if expak becomes friends of black leaders and contributr money to leaders of oppressed people. Instead of that little pakistani fine man when lands in Newyork he calls this misfortunate black group of people dangerous instead of understanding his suffering of 400 years and join elites group. If it goes on desi will have to run back to indo pak as Blacks can not hurt white interests they can attack brown man whio is small arms harmless and physical weak. There is common between blacks are most of muslims but arabs insult them by excluding them they understand and resent. As arabs will by big car and ask date white but not muslim dark woman. It feels very angry to blacks as they made lots of money on black slave trading and they have not forgotten that. Black population is on rise if pakistanis can connect with them culturally they can help lot in future but they will not as they will not mind if muslima will marry jewish boy but never black man. But things change slowly and dark+ brown population is going up and so called dna and tests will level with time as you put saffron in milk in time all looks yellow. Only one should be patient.

Re# 13

Neembu:

Thanks for your mail. Your reading is absolutely correct that some weaker and vulnerable groups are shut out when they face dominant voices. I will clarify what I meant in the paragraph and then provide a couple of examples of this.

Usually in Indian politics, the Left and Right are seen as opposed in their views and ideology. No doubt they have different agendas.

However, each of them has an idea of what a 'true' Indian is or what the essence of Indian culture is. The Left will say that Indians are naturally socialist and not materialistic and there is some natural quality of secularism that all Indians have. The Hindu Right will say that a certain version of upper caste Hinduism is what truly defines Indian culture.

Both have this idea that there is some true quality of Indian identity, although they define that quality differently.

But where is this quality? Where does it lie? One can always show enough counter-examples to prove that it is fictional: an article of faith.

And no matter how many debates take place, this idea of unique Indianness always survives and endures.

This is what I meant by the statement that the illusory center of exceptionalism always survives.

Examples of communities that are shut out by this idea: Dalits and the indigenous communities that are designated STs, for example. The irony though is that Dalits, to make their voice heard, now also have started arguing that they are the only true and 'original' Indians. They are following the same logic.

Another example is would be Anglo-Indians. They have been completely invisible and marginalized in the political conversation in post-independence India, because that conversation cannot recognize them.

Regards
Rohit Chopra

Re: # 30

saminasha,

sorry .... i will leave this board to the intellectuals so that they can discuss this important issues, but before i leave i have to ask you one thing:

....why do these hifalutin discussions always take place on cspan in a tiny conference room with two dozen tired looking men and women in worn out tweed jackets and bad hairdos sitting on hard chairs that are not properly lined up?........ why is the panel always shuffling papers and why do they always speak in a monotone? .... why do they drink coffee out of paper cups and why don't they have donuts on the table in the corner? ....

Alas, hamdim2 sahib, you are as bigoted and behind the curve as I am. Blame grandfather gopinath for our anti-intellectualism - our inability to keep pace with every-day scientific advancements proving rohit right. :(

-------------------------

Neembu's # 25, agreed. That's what US-Israel-India alliance against good things means.

That is one exceptionalism rohit might not mind acknowledging - the exceptionalism of US-Israel-India evil/colonialism/injustice etc.

Re: # 28

hamid unkil,

thanks for attempting to turn this board into another anti intellectual forum for your stand up. it's so respectful of the labor and focus of academics who serve an important purpose in our societies.

later.

Re: # 18 One way of west elites to keep down people of color is to take tests which are biased against people of dark and brown color. When tests produce results as wanted ( balcks, asians, dark, brown and china race gets lesser marks in these prejudiced tests.) Real master or very matured person will never take test, why he /she should subject to recist tests. Tests are just designed to keep people down like indian, pakistanis, blacks and latin americans. Actually all people who are oppressed from america should just boycott recist exams which at one stroke decide some group of people are underclass are recist and should be abolished. All people should have freedom to study whatever they want. That is reason Indian and pakistani people are suffering and going hungry and angry in England and ameria etc.Now all black brown people are very poor generally so they suffer in every way. IF same income level people of all reces tasted all will have same results. Also black and brown people have suffered lot by slavery and they are not given intelligent work for hundreds of years so they slowly get their DNA count number down naturally. Just like now if you take very uneducated landless woman from Sindhi bad rural areas she can not match urban and universal and well travelled person or well fed, well educated and brought up as potential leader like B.Bhutto, there is no comparison. What people should strive not for equal opportunity but "EQUAL OUTCOME" that is need of time. Then america will be defeated and all worlds people will come up and go to USA etc. Why national boundaries just protect elites from world poor masses. Soon time will come when hundreds of millions of Chines, Indians , Muslims and arabs will flood usa if this artificial barrers pulled dowm. As free markets need free workers movement. Just as white people came to Des and dark loands of africa and asia they did not ask permission. Similarly all arab oil is used by elites and arab instead of gratitude get big western shaft and nothing. People of color should just move to west and and remould oppressive lands in to lands of brotherhood, and lands of plenty.

Re: # 26

kaal,

... i was completely turned off by the first sentence ... i thought, "here we go again, another rant against the evils of colonialism; now all we need is masadi and a sandwich and we should be able to have a picinic"

... but as i read on, i found out that this was even worse than that - this man is in total denial of the fact that all men were not not born equal and when people with similar genetic traits band together to form a society, the society is exceptional ........ for example, who can deny that:

- blacks are exceptional basketball and football players... i know, i know, poor jimmy the greek was fired for suggesting it, but it is the truth

- jews are exceptionlly pushy and loud ..... i can pick out a jewish family at kennedy airport by the decibel level and the whiny tone of the princess harassing her poor hen-pecked husband ......

- punjabis are exceptionally boorish (and loud) .... as soon as they walk into a gathering the noise level goes up and the level of conversation plunges into the gutter ....

- pathans are ... well, pathans

......... and i could go on .... i am sure you will say this is sterotyping, but i say, "if the sterotype fits, wear it!" ........... and stop whining

Re: # 22

nb,

.... you are right, but these kids just don't get it ...... my older one who, thank god, doesn't look too indian was so thrilled when she got her first traffic ticket that she pinned put it up on the fridge alongside the younger one's grades ... why?.. because the officer had checked off the 'white' box in the race category! ..... unfortuntely, the younger one is exceptionally disadvantaged ...... damn grandpa gopinath!

Elementary, hamidm sahib. Rohit is telling us that you and I are bad people.

Re: # 21

nb,

exceptionalism in not limited to India. what is interesting is how the construction of exceptionalism contributes to a post colonial/developing nation's self narrative. the "american dream" is one example of exceptionalism that can be said to be authentic to some individuals and communities given an advantageous context of supportive institutional policies, and a punishing myth that is used to denigrate communities who fail to achieve it because they lack those structural advantages.

Re: # 20

hamid unkil,

your daughter mashallah sounds very bright and has several options available to her. buy her jorie graham's overlord, elizabeth bishop's collected poems, natalie angier and oliver sack's books on human biology and physiology.

i also believe that in order to understand rohit's essay, you need to grapple a bit with it. its inexcusably bad manners for interactors here to take pot shots and not engage honestly with the author's ideas.

kaal,

... you and saminashah make me feel so stupid!.... can you please explain this to me in ten bullets ....

........ and don't pull a homi bhaba on me because if, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classification can be seen as the desperate effort to 'normalize' formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality.

hamidm, considering your daughter looks very Indian, be happy with whatever she does.. it is difficutl to overcome such a disadvantage.

I think the writer has it wrong; I don't think exceptionalism is unique to India, and it is not always used as an excuse either.

Re: # 16

saminashah,

.... i am sure you understand this gobbeldygook, so why don't you do me favor and explain it to me in less than fifty words .... after years of trying to explain anything and everything on one powerpoint slide and in less than ten bullets, i just don't get this long-winded stuff .....

.... by the way, i passed on the copy of billy collins that you made me buy years ago to my younger daughter who seems to be on a slippery slope to skid row .... she keeps on saying that english and latin are her favourite subjects and that she wants to be a teacher .... i keep on telling her that she won't be able to afford the bmw and the coach purses that she covets if she doesn't listen to me and gets a real job like investment banking or law ....... luckily, she has all a's in math and science and really seems to get physics - i was absolutely thrilled and relieved yesterday when she announced that she 'loves' physics ...... but i am still worried - she could end up like this guy, rohit, or - god forbid - like masadi .........

Excellent example of Indian Exceptionalism, neembu. Thanks.

An example of exceptionalism taking place in the "hard sciences" field that seemed to go unremarked on by the Usual Suspects:


CNN.com
Nobel-winning biologist apologizes for remarks about blacks
Story Highlights
Jim Watson told a newspaper he was "gloomy about the prospect of Africa"

Watson: I can't understand how I could have said what I'm quoted as having said

Watson won the Nobel prize in 1962

Scientist has made controversial remarks in the past

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Nobel laureate biologist Jim Watson apologized "unreservedly" Thursday for stating that black people were not as intelligent as whites, saying he was "mortified" by the comments attributed to him.

"I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," Watson said during an appearance at the Royal Society in London.

"I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have."

"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief," he said.

Watson, 79, an American who won the 1962 Nobel prize for his role in the discovery of the double-helix structure of DNA, told the Sunday Times he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours, whereas all the testing says not really."

Watson also asserted there was no reason to believe different races separated by geography should have evolved identically, and he said that while he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true."

His comments were met with an avalanche of criticism, and London's Science Museum canceled Watson's planned Friday appearance, saying his remarks had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate."

The British government's skills minister, David Lammy, who is black, called the comments "deeply offensive."

"It is a shame that a man with a record of scientific distinction should see his work overshadowed by his own irrational prejudices," Lammy said.

Watson's remarks to the Sunday Times were the latest in a number of controversial comments from the eminent biologist.

In 1997, Britain's Sunday Telegraph quoted Watson as saying that if a gene for homosexuality were isolated, women who find that their unborn child has the gene should be allowed to have an abortion.

During a lecture tour in 2000, he suggested there might be links between a person's weight and their level of ambition and between skin color and sexual prowess.

"That's why you have Latin lovers," he said, according to The Associated Press, which cited people who attended the lecture. "You've never heard of an English lover. Only an English patient."

And in a British TV documentary that aired in 2003, Watson suggested stupidity was a genetic disease that should be treated.

Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

All AboutThe Nobel Foundation • Alfred Nobel

Rohit, you always write very intelligently, and on this one, you have placed the very seal of perfection. Bravo.

We lesser beings, of course, don't even know what Indian Exceptionalism is (ali_1 says it has to do with the size of our equipments, and some liberal friends argue, it comes from the satanic US-Zionist-Hindu fundoo alliance).

Even I can see, you have clearly explained Indian Exceptionalism, and even more clearly proven it to be false. Bravo again.

Re: # 15

Hamid Unkil,

With all due respect, several readers on chowk's front page can understand this essay. Why is it necessary to insult the author and readership?

Re: # 7

dash_dot,

..... thank you for saving me the trouble of exposing this 'unmitigated tripe' ... i say, balderdash!

... you ask why the author does not use "simple vocabulary rather than trying to mesmerise others with long winded sentences "...... how else would these worthless social 'scientists' justify their nonsense - if they put their simple-minded ideas into simple words that everyone could understand, they would be quickly exposed as charlatans and loose their subsidies .......

btw, anti history-feel free to point out how this interactor board seems to perform exceptionalism!

Rohit,

Can you discuss the following paragraph:

"The long and short of it is that the shifting, elusive, and ultimately illusory center of Indian exceptionalism survives unscathed and uninterrogated. From the far right to the extreme left, many different voices in Indian society collude in preserving the illusion. My take on it: Indian society may be exceptional, but only to the extent that any and every other society in the world is also exceptional. Dismantling the myth of uniqueness, while preserving an emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs, may be a first step toward thinking about the sources of violence in Indian society. We have only to look at the dangers of other exceptionalisms (or earlier incarnations of our own) to recommend such an approach."

My reading of it is that "Indian exceptionalism" is a dynamic that is a component of the dominant narrative voice within India? In essence, this dominant voice performs not only the constructionism of exceptionalism, but marginalizes any other voice that might challenge, interrogate, shift against this voice.

If this reading is correct, something happens to marginalized voices within their interaction with the dominant voice (institutionally, culturally, artistically, etc.)-what is it? Finally, can you give one or two examples of voices marginalised by exceptionalism?

Thanks for the interesting read!

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Rohit Chopra writes [....any number of Hindu nationalist initiatives in India and the diaspora to censor or harass voices opposed to them; the harrasment of artistes on charges of obscenity;....]

The harassment of artists started with the banning of "Satanic Verses" in India. You couldn't/wouldn't say that because of YOUR bias but had to reference a BBC article talking about the harassment of that M F (hey, Chowkidars, try and ban me for that!) Hussain and Richard Gere.

Stop making exceptions for Muslims in India first.

Re neembu #1

[What is particularly interesting is that this is also a transnational construction that taps into the "Model Minority Myth" in the West. This is particularly significant when we see some elements of Indian communities distance themselves from Muslim and Pakistan immigrant communities post 9/11 and the attendent domestic and international policies of the US.]

Wanting to nuke Mecca and to deport all Muslims back to their countries of origin post-9/11 has nothing to do with buying into the Model Minority Myth and everything to do with common sense.

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fcuk! I have that #6 in word and I swear that to at the end is of in the word document! Chowk seems to a have a mind of its own!

typos in #4 corrected

what a lot of gobble-gobbledegook - .... this is what comes out from a social scientist's mind....words which carry little meaning and utterly worthless - and you wonder why people dislike/or have such little respect for social scientists.

e.g:


"The long and short of it is that the shifting, elusive, and ultimately illusory center of Indian exceptionalism survives unscathed and uninterrogated."

WTF does this mean?...its a whole string of words which are essentially meaningless. Okay it may make some sense to the subsidised lot in the social sciences...but really how far is rooted in the real world. In one word " bollocks".


" My take on it: Indian society may be exceptional, but only to the extent that any and every other society in the world is also exceptional."

Oh Dear please tell us something new. This "insight" is well known. Every society wants to preserve for itself what is has already got and garner more for itself. How about using simple vocabulary rather than trying to mesmerise others with long winded sentences which only serve make yourselves sound rather abstruse and not even obtuse!


" Dismantling the myth of uniqueness, while preserving an emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs, may be a first step toward thinking about the sources of violence in Indian society."

Yeah! That very same "emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs" - could be the "the sources of violence in Indian society." - Come man you can do better than this.

Such a load unmitigated tripe - and you want us to swallow this.

And then " We have only to look at the dangers of other exceptionalisms (or earlier incarnations of our own) to recommend such an approach."

big bloody deal!

I am sorry but this article is an unmitigated disaster zone. Riddled with gobble-gobbledegook. Words meant to impress, but carry no meaning whatsoever. What a waste to time energy and bandwidth!

my oversight in #5 ..... should have been just Bahri!

oh dear...you are really a social scientist......well what said holds true even more....

BTW do you know Prof Bahri-Petraglia?

what a lot of gobble-gobbledegook - .... this is what comes out from a social scientists mind....words which carry little meaning - and you wonder people dislike social scientists so much.

e.g:


"The long and short of it is that the shifting, elusive, and ultimately illusory center of Indian exceptionalism survives unscathed and uninterrogated."

WTF does this mean?...its a whole string of words which are essentially meaningless. Okay it makes some sense to the subsidise lot in the social sciences...but really how far is rooted in the real world. In one word " bollocks".


" My take on it: Indian society may be exceptional, but only to the extent that any and every other society in the world is also exceptional."

OH Dear please tell us something new. This "insight" is well known. Every society wants to preserve for itself what is has already got and garner more for itself. How about using simple vocabulary rather than trying to mesmerise others with long winded sentences which only serve make yourselves sound rather abstruse.


" Dismantling the myth of uniqueness, while preserving an emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs, may be a first step toward thinking about the sources of violence in Indian society."

Yeah! That very same "emphasis on the richness and particularity of Indian social practices and customs" - could be the "the sources of violence in Indian society." - Come man you can do better than this.

Such a load unmitigated tripe - and you want us to swallow this.

And then " We have only to look at the dangers of other exceptionalisms (or earlier incarnations of our own) to recommend such an approach."

big deal!


I sorry to say this article is an unmitigated disaster zone. Riddled with gobble-gobbledegook. Words meant to impress, but carry no meaning whatsoever.

Like they say - for every generalisation that is true in India, the opposite is also true... multiple realities live side by side... so the "Exception" that people often mention isn't really so, it's another reality...

In a ultra diverse population - this is bound to happen... things are smothening out a bit, spanning over the multiple fault-lines - but it will take time... In the meantime - this analysis seems to be an excercise in futility... has no practical value...

Neembu

Many thanks. You raise an excellent point, one that deserves much more attention. The pressures to be a model minority translate into strategies of reshaping Indian identities along certain lines, often eagerly adopted by Indians themselves. Thus, to espouse capitalism without qualification is suddenly to be a good Indian!

Regards
Rohit Chopra

Fabulous discussion.

What is particularly interesting is that this is also a transnational construction that taps into the "Model Minority Myth" in the West. This is particularly significant when we see some elements of Indian communities distance themselves from Muslim and Pakistan immigrant communities post 9/11 and the attendent domestic and international policies of the US.