Ahmar Mahboob October 26, 2007
#1 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 26, 2007 11:21:43 am
Generally a good article and very well argued Ahmar Sahib. You should also mention that madrassahs per se are not a bad thing nor a new phenomenon: they have existed as traditional centres of religious and spiritual learning since the inception of Islam and in all parts of the Muslim world. Traditionally--at least until the 19th/20th century parents sent their best and brightest children to the madrassahs. All the great people we talk about in islamic history --from Rumi to Ghazali and Ibn Sina to and all the great fuqaha and awliya are primarily products of the madrassah. Islamic civilisation it can be argued is in itself primarily a product of the madrassah. Now of course the madrassahs receive the worst input and the results are apparent.
Your essay is a powerful argument for developing countries leaving the IMF and World Bank which are just outposts for the neocolonists especially the World Bank.
IMF loans are a form of modern slavery at a state level.
Your essay is a powerful argument for developing countries leaving the IMF and World Bank which are just outposts for the neocolonists especially the World Bank.
IMF loans are a form of modern slavery at a state level.
#2 Posted by SaimaShah on October 26, 2007 11:23:01 am
Excellent article that makes a very valid connection. It isn't a coincidence that the creation of wealth excludes the have nots or those who cannot price themselves according to the requirements of 'the system'.
#3 Posted by Naqshbandi on October 26, 2007 11:24:59 am
the UN is the other trio in the satanic troika which keeps the developing world poor and dependent on the capitalist first world. UN, IMF, World Bank.
Time for a new economic order. I think the Scandinavian socialist economic free market model is closest to the Islamic concept of social equality and justice barring the return of the gold dinar (and no I am not a Murabitoun!).
Time for a new economic order. I think the Scandinavian socialist economic free market model is closest to the Islamic concept of social equality and justice barring the return of the gold dinar (and no I am not a Murabitoun!).
#4 Posted by SaimaShah on October 26, 2007 11:37:51 am
On that note, the best schools in India were Madrassahs. Everybody in those days went to Madrassahs. In face the persian culture and the british culture were taught side by side in a very famous college. Eventually the Madrassah was separated from the regular college-it was a deliberate step to create an upper class elite that mimiced the White in all respects so much so that they saw themselves as White. It was done because the British were racist and believed that their way of life was the best and it was the duty of Jesus's followers to educate the rest of the world into following the righteous and true path. It succeeded particularly well because of the Hindu, Sikh, Muslim divide and the partition in which the Muslim populations were effectively separated as 'others' from the rest of the indigenous population. Hindutva and Islamization policies have also helped in furthering colonialism's agendas. Christainity, not Islam has been the most successful homogenizing force that the world has known. Yes, they were bloody smart, on the other hand it isn't working that well anymore.
#5 Posted by masadi on October 26, 2007 11:45:31 am
Chowk staff banned me unfairly yet once again because I replied to tahmed's baseless nonsense, this has got to be one of the most atrocious bs here, they ignore a person's contributions and promote ah's like ferozk who just today is condoning the military action in Swat, i.e. the US occupation force, a foreign (though indigeneously staffed) force trying to put their so called "writ of the imperialists" unto an indigeneous folk who have lived off that land and are not foreign to it.....immoral fools like these people similarly support the Israeli occupation of Palestinians, and how do they justify it, using slogans of "statesmanship", and then have tha audacity of talking about "democracy" after pushing for the people's will to be ignored (in favor of the will of the imperialists)
#6 Posted by masadi on October 26, 2007 11:51:58 am
Now back to this article. The author is quite myopic, that structural adjustment asks for reduced public expenditure is no secret, but holding that as a cause of "madrassas" is missing the big picture. If this were the case than madrassas would have arisen in every country which deals with the IMF on similar terms (and rest assured Pakistan is not the only one). Now, I am willing to concede that the rise of the madrassa might be related to structural adjustment as a latent consequence but it certainly isn't the cause of that phenomenon. The direct cause of that was long before this new imperialism of the structural adjustment type came into being, it is a consequence of colonization and its exclusion of the population from the mainstream institutions that were designed for the benefit of the colonials. Once excluded the madrassa arose not only as a place of religious education but as a political and economic refuge. This was taken up by the new colonials (the US elite) with huge infrastructure/indoctrination/financial and other help during the Soviet Afghan war: that my friend is the direct cause of the current madrassa phenomenon, they (the US elite) legitimized it, nurtured it, strengthened it indirectly by their policies and now want to fight the Frankenstein of their own creation.
#7 Posted by mohar11 on October 26, 2007 12:04:03 pm
All the while I thought saudi petro-dollars are responsible for madrassa explosion in pakiland... that and the need for cheap supply of foot soldiers for pakis' strategic wet-dreams... No?
#8 Posted by Skeptical on October 26, 2007 12:44:36 pm
It is an interesting take but I think one has to take into account the geographical distribution of these Madrassas vis a vis the population density in the respective regions particularly the conservative regions.Because if Madrassas to population ratio is higher in NWFP and Baluchistan while public schools to population is the same or nearly same across the provinces than the religious mindset of the populace is perhaps more responsible rather than lack of public schooling. Moreover one also has to see whether Public schools exist in the near vicinity of majority of Madrassas and whether the growth in Madrassas has actually coincided with the reduction, if any, of the public schools in the same vicinity. After all these factors have been taken into account only then we are in a better position to state that whether neo classical economic program is one of the significant factors behind this phenomenon
#9 Posted by rf786 on October 26, 2007 1:12:05 pm
Mahboob Bhai Salam,
With all due respect, your article is an absolute misrepresentation of statistical data that are being deliberately twisted to confirm the populist view that everything that ills Pakistan is because of the west. Statistically speaking, you would get an F for this fabrication.
I have a few questions for you:
(1) How are Maderssas financed?
(2) What is the correlation btw Maderassa financing and IMF SAP?
(3) What are the absolute amounts of education spending?
(4) How many school girls have been blown up by taliboon?
(5) What is the relationship btw Saudi petrodollars and maderassa growth?
(6) How come maderassas have grown in urban areas?
(7) What is the ratio of Afghan refugee children in Maderassas compared to Pakistani children? This data needs to be analyzed for periods extending from 1970-1980, 1980-1990 and 1990 to present.
With all due respect, your article is an absolute misrepresentation of statistical data that are being deliberately twisted to confirm the populist view that everything that ills Pakistan is because of the west. Statistically speaking, you would get an F for this fabrication.
I have a few questions for you:
(1) How are Maderssas financed?
(2) What is the correlation btw Maderassa financing and IMF SAP?
(3) What are the absolute amounts of education spending?
(4) How many school girls have been blown up by taliboon?
(5) What is the relationship btw Saudi petrodollars and maderassa growth?
(6) How come maderassas have grown in urban areas?
(7) What is the ratio of Afghan refugee children in Maderassas compared to Pakistani children? This data needs to be analyzed for periods extending from 1970-1980, 1980-1990 and 1990 to present.
#10 Posted by jang on October 26, 2007 2:00:35 pm
in short, a new way to blame the other. great job.
#11 Posted by hamidm2 on October 26, 2007 2:58:08 pm
i had kimchee for lunch today .... after coming back to work i felt a little bloated and have had gas since then ..... what caused this:
a) the us elite
b) the south korean lackeys of the us elite
c) the hindoo-zionist-cia axis of evil
d) the imf
e) the world bank
f) the us elite
......... i think the answer is a and e
#12 Posted by ISlamIslam on October 26, 2007 5:54:09 pm
There has been an explosion of private schools in India too.
We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts.
It is the Koran, stupid.
We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts.
It is the Koran, stupid.
#13 Posted by masadi on October 26, 2007 8:42:42 pm
islamislam writes "We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts."
Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks. The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena. It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause, rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...
Hamid, I know there are great geo-political manuverings going on in your gut but spare us your moronic BS.
Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks. The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena. It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause, rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...
Hamid, I know there are great geo-political manuverings going on in your gut but spare us your moronic BS.
#14 Posted by hamidm2 on October 26, 2007 8:59:57 pm
Re: # 13
masadi,
.... if you keep on blaming everything on the US elite you will never be able to find a cure for your impotence ...... trust me, they didn't put anything in your free cheese while you were at howard (or was it prairie view?)- it is all in your head .... get over it!
masadi,
.... if you keep on blaming everything on the US elite you will never be able to find a cure for your impotence ...... trust me, they didn't put anything in your free cheese while you were at howard (or was it prairie view?)- it is all in your head .... get over it!
#15 Posted by masadi on October 26, 2007 9:02:54 pm
rf writes to the author "I have a few questions for you"
Of course you are lazy and don't have a clue about it but want to criticize the author nonetheless so you come up with nonsense questions, all the while ignoring the role of the CIA/US in setting up many of these schools, importing indoctrinating literature published in Nebraska, with help from "Saudi Petro Dollars", with tacit approval of the Americans, all for the purpose of fighting a proxy cold war with the Soviets. Once that structure develops it is self perpetuating, especially in a society that spends next to nothing on public services- and here is where the IMF becomes a factor. The madrassas have always been with us and exist in India as well but what they have become now, and where they have become now, is a new phenomena that needs to be studied in the geopolitical context of the region. The IMF is a factor in strengthening the structure of the madrassa, there can be no questions on that whatsoever.
Of course you are lazy and don't have a clue about it but want to criticize the author nonetheless so you come up with nonsense questions, all the while ignoring the role of the CIA/US in setting up many of these schools, importing indoctrinating literature published in Nebraska, with help from "Saudi Petro Dollars", with tacit approval of the Americans, all for the purpose of fighting a proxy cold war with the Soviets. Once that structure develops it is self perpetuating, especially in a society that spends next to nothing on public services- and here is where the IMF becomes a factor. The madrassas have always been with us and exist in India as well but what they have become now, and where they have become now, is a new phenomena that needs to be studied in the geopolitical context of the region. The IMF is a factor in strengthening the structure of the madrassa, there can be no questions on that whatsoever.
#16 Posted by ISlamIslam on October 26, 2007 10:16:44 pm
Re masadi #13
[islamislam writes "We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts."
Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks....]
If you are talking about the attacks in Sri Lanka, it is not the RSS schools in India that indoctrinated them into becoming suicide bombers. Nor were the bombers quoting The Bhagavad Gita or saying "Kali Mata ki Jai" as they set off the bombs....as opposed to "Allahu Akbar", if you get the drift of what I am trying to say here.
[....The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena....]
The frikking Arabs had no idea about explosives or triggering mechanisms, otherwise there would have been explicit instructions in the Koran as to killing the kaffirs with suicide bombs.
Now, you are not going to deny Koranic verses about killing the kaffirs, are you?
While you are at it, since there were no loudspeakers in Mo's time, why do your mullahs use loudspeakers to call the Faithful to prayers?
By extension, suicide bombs are also sanctioned in the Koran.
[...It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause,....]
Okay, it is the Pakistani mindset, not the Islamic mindset. How come then the suicide bombers in Spain, London, Glasgow, etc., are all Muslims?
[....rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...]
Yes, the-Great-Satan-made-me-do-it defense!
[islamislam writes "We don't have Hindus wandering around with suicide belts."
Hindus were one of the pioneers of suicide attacks....]
If you are talking about the attacks in Sri Lanka, it is not the RSS schools in India that indoctrinated them into becoming suicide bombers. Nor were the bombers quoting The Bhagavad Gita or saying "Kali Mata ki Jai" as they set off the bombs....as opposed to "Allahu Akbar", if you get the drift of what I am trying to say here.
[....The Koran has nothing to do with suicide attacks, I challenge you to produce one verse which supports the phenomena....]
The frikking Arabs had no idea about explosives or triggering mechanisms, otherwise there would have been explicit instructions in the Koran as to killing the kaffirs with suicide bombs.
Now, you are not going to deny Koranic verses about killing the kaffirs, are you?
While you are at it, since there were no loudspeakers in Mo's time, why do your mullahs use loudspeakers to call the Faithful to prayers?
By extension, suicide bombs are also sanctioned in the Koran.
[...It has more to do with a group's reaction to real or preceived oppression. The Koran has been with Pakistan for a long time as have been madrassas but suicide bombings in Pakistan are a new phenomena therefore you cannot hold either the Koran or the madrassa as the cause,....]
Okay, it is the Pakistani mindset, not the Islamic mindset. How come then the suicide bombers in Spain, London, Glasgow, etc., are all Muslims?
[....rather it is the direct consequence of the so called US war or terror- yes, the US elite are the cause of producing it by their tactics and policies that deliberately want to perpetuate such things to feed the so-called war on terror, a war without end...]
Yes, the-Great-Satan-made-me-do-it defense!
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