On disowning Bhagat Singh and Other Vagaries

lONG lIVE THE EFFORTS OF sALIM

Thanks, Ras Siddiqui, for the encouragement, and thanks to other readers for giving their feedback. I'll ask Ahmad Salim to read the article and respond to the comments--especially to the ones related to Dyal Singh Library and Amrita Pritam.
I still have to download video footage and make a movie out of it, but meanwhile you can see the pictures at:
http://karachiphotoblog.blogspot.com/

warm regards

HP miaN is dishonest, as countless times before.

Zia's denigration of the Bhagat Singh was not based on any pretenses that the Singh's contribution was less than worthy to the Indian independence struggle. It was done strictly to accommodate the doctrine of necessity to deprecate the "other" - in the same way that the Afghanistani Taliban destroyed their own relics of the past - like the Bamiyan Buddha! (And HP is not the only person here who was fine with that sordid act!)

The reason miaN HP deliberately looks away from that simple fact is because the reality is too upsetting!

The past relics only have value for those who feel a closeness of some kind to those relics - otherwise, they are another man's treasure but your trash!

In the end, everything ends up in the ganda naala - including our own mortal remains!

#44 by majumdar

So who have run away from Pakistan to enjoy the pleasures of the Godless west. Why dont you come back to Pak and fight for the Momins there.

Majumdar bhai, Borivili to me appears to be Urstruly's soulmate. Notice how both shed copious quantities of tears for their fellow Muslim brethren in Pakistan and elsewhere, without willing to leave their cozy jobs and comforts in faraway lands and actually do something about it.

Borivilli mian,

O worthy man!!! So who have run away from Pakistan to enjoy the pleasures of the Godless west. Why dont you come back to Pak and fight for the Momins there.

Regards

Worthless man I am not a Pakistani and do not live in Islo

Borivilli mian,

(Lok at your hindu hypocrisy more concern for books than for human beings just because they were of a different religion)

Look at your own greatness, mian crying hoarse over murder of Muslims in India and justifying white phosphorus-ing of Muslimas in your own country.

(sick hindus did one of you who claim to purchase this lifeless books and transport them to India lift a finger to save a single child or woman in your own country?)

Healthy Momin, did you lift a finger to save a single schoolkid who was burnt to conders in your own backyard in Isloo.

Regards

Dude you want zia to be concerned about some useless books while you rape and cut his kin folk in ganda nalas and are still doing it till today in Gujarat. Lok at your hindu hypocrisy more concern for books than for human beings just because they were of a different religion, sick hindus did one of you who claim to purchase this lifeless books and transport them to India lift a finger to save a single child or woman in your own country?

worthless....

Borivilli mian,

(u bastards who are abusing Zia for throwing your dirty books where were you when the muslim women of Jalander, from where Zia an Awan hailed, were being raped and thrown in ganda nalas? )

And where were you when your General Mush was spraying the schoolkids in Lal Masjid with White Phosphorus?

(detai led interviews with the rapists, mutilators and killers themselves, role of police, VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal, BJP and Modi himself )

And what about the role of your rulers in butchering Muslims in Dhaka (1970-71), NWFP (1970s), B'stan (1970s), Karachi (1980s and 90s), W'stan, Swat and Lal Masjid (curerntly) Your Mard e Momins have murdered more Muslims than all the Injuns put together.

Regards

HP: It will be hard for me to believe that Amrita did not know Ahmad Salim's name even until 1982, because that poem and letters concerned Amrita Pritam and some other pro-establishment writers as much as Amhad Salim. That letter was at center of debate for long time in leftist Punjabi magazines. I would keep your info for the time being and look for colloborating evidence in future. Evidence could be in Naagmani issues between 1971 and 1982 unfortunately that is much before my time:-)

#30 Posted by dullabhatti
"HP, what year did you meet Amrita Pritam in New Delhi?"
In 1982. When I mentioned Ahmed Salim she had no idea!

#31 Posted by drlokraj

"is he same Ahmad Salim, whom Paash had dedicated a long poem in 71-72?"

He could be! Ahmed Salim was a young and upcoming Punjabi poet in 1971 but was not popular in Punjab as Punjabi poets rarely get recognition in Lahore! He was arrested along with Habib Jalib, Prof Amin Mughal, Shamim Ashraf Malik, and a few others that I don't remember now, in 1971 for protesting against the army action in E. Pak. Last I heard Amin Mughal was somewhere in England. Shamim Ashraf Malik died a decade ago and we all know about Habib Jalib.
I met Salim when he was teaching or was a research scholar at Institute of Sindhialogy at Sindh University in 1978-79.

A word about the nonsense about Hindi and Gormukhi books. Couple of years ago the same story appeared on chowk when someone claimed that in 1966 Ayub Khan asked the Karachi University to burn all Hindi books. That is bull crap. No such incident happened and I think Salim is regurgitating the same story now using Punjab University.
It is a lie.

Every story like this must be put through a simple test. Librarians are professionals and will not allow books to be burned or send down the drain no matter who ordered them. Old books that have no readers demand are ordinarily removed to storage or archives to make room for the new books and that is a standard practice. Since there are no Hindi or Gormukhi readers left in Pakistan, any librarian would move those books to storage. He wouldn’t need an order from Zia or Ayub.

I believe the Karachi University Vice Chancellor Peerzada Qasim started his career as a Liberian in the sixties and he is a pretty liberal person with lots of respect for literature. He writes Urdu poetry himself. I would not believe that a person of his credentials would have allowed books to be burned in Karachi university library without making a fuss about it.

Similarly, I think it is a complete fabrication by Ahmed Salim to claim that books were sent down the drain in Dyal Singh library. No Librarian worth his salt would allow that to happen no matter how regressive he or she is.


What a pity that liberals/Leftists like Ahmed Salim had to resort to lies to collect couple of bucks for their NGOs.

kandivili_passenger,

No matter how much you jump up and down, pop out
veins, throw fits, and try to browbeat hinjews to
shame, you are not getting get Kshmir, it has become
intergral part of India (you know, Atoot Ung),
unfortunately.

I guess no kauwa touching your pind...

Boribhai, the good thing is, at least drlokraj agrees with you. Good start. :)

These Hindu have some complex they have been butchering their minorities since ancient times, budhists and muslims didnt suffer half as much as the Dalits/sudras

Lokraj, yes. and also the letter in "Hem Jyoti" asking Salim some tough questions. There is no way amrita did not know about Ahmad Salim...he has been mentioned and published in Naagmani many times. so I am wondereing whether HP met her before 71 or after 2000;)

These stinking hindus and Indians are still doing to muslim women and children would Zia rightly did to their books read this from Tehelka magazine one of India's leading the Planning and exectuion of the Muslim Genocide/Pogrom in Gujarat here is the link : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107gujrat_sec.asp

detai led interviews with the rapists, mutilators and killers themselves, role of police, VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal, BJP and Modi himself

u bastards who are abusing Zia for throwing your dirty books where were you when the muslim women of Jalander, from where Zia an Awan hailed, were being raped and thrown in ganda nalas? or being sold in open markets and being paraded naked (along with the muslim women of ferozepur, patiala, kapurthala, gurdaspur and a hundred other places)? this Kaura sach and his kind who piss on their gurus have the gall to talk about alexandria when muslims collected the books of the ancient greeks and romans when you hindus and christian rolled in your filth, the renaissance would not have ben possible without the transmission of knowledge through baghdad and cordoba,

dullabhatti,
is he same Ahmad Salim, whom Paash had dedicated a long poem in 71-72?

HP, what year did you meet Amrita Pritam in New Delhi? Do you remember a clear statement from her not remembering Ahmad Salim? or who he is?
thanks. it is important.

drlokraj

Thanks. For now, regretfully, I must pull a neembu on you, suggesting for your reading pleasure a url available on wiki itself. The article is by Koenraad Elst, arguably the greatest living scourge of all Indian communists and communist historians, and clearly not your favorite writer.

Yet he addresses precisely the point you raised. So please have a look. It's only a short write up.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/pushyamitra.html

I personally have a different take on why only a very sick/communist mind (exept you, of course) will see Pushyamitra's destruction of some Buddhist Viharas (I believe he did do so) as Buddhists being slaughtered and driven from India by Hindus. Time permitting, hopefully soon, I will be glad to explain that.

Regards.

Re: # 27
kaal, here is some part of it from man article on wikipedia, (not written by Rahul Sankritayan of course):

Persecution under the Sunga Pusyamitra

Pusyamitra Sunga (reigned 185 to 151 BCE) assassinated the last Mauryan emperor Brhadrata in 185 BCE, and subsequently founded the Sunga dynasty. From the mid 3rd century BC, under Ashoka, Buddhist proselytization had begun to spread beyond the subcontinent. Buddhist texts such as the Ashokavadana and Divyavadana, written about four centuries after his reign, they contain accounts of the persecution of Buddhists during his reign. They ascribe to him the razing of stupas and viharas built by Ashoka, the placement of a bounty of 100 dinaras on the heads of Buddhist monks and describe him as one who wanted to undo the work of Ashoka.[39]

Some historians have rejected Pushyamitra' s persecution of Buddhists and the traditional accounts are often described as exaggerated. The Asokavadana legend has been likened to a Buddhist version of Pusyamitra's attack of the Mauryas, reflecting the declining influence of Buddhism in the Sunga Imperial court.

Later Sunga kings were seen as amenable to Buddhism and as having contributed to the building of the stupa at Bharhut.[40]. The decline of Buddhism in India did not set in until the Gupta dynasty.

Drlokraj, please base your opinions on either logic or some historical information, or both. Not on what 'some people' say (there is no shortage of opinion in any mental assylum) or what communist brother Rahul Sankretayan whispered into some people's ears.

If you have some logic and or information, please, let's hear it. We would be happy for the opportunity to agree with you, if warranted. Thanks.

#25 Posted by HP on October 30, 2007 8:06:50 pm

Gibberish & poor knowledge/info abt the subject.(minus the unknown part abt the author).

I know Ahmed Salim from way back. He used to write poetry and used to talk a lot about his friendship with Amrita Pritam which proved to be bogus when I got a chance to meet her in Delhi and she failed to recognize his name. I don't know if he still writes poetry or not. Back in the 70s and 80s, he was also known for making up stories. Though I know for sure that he was arrested in 1971 for protesting against the army action in E.Pak. That was really courageous considering the situation in Punjab at that time. This act was one reason for his fame.

Bhagat Singh and what he did was truly great but if we put the whole thing in context, he had a small but a courageous part in Indian independence.(Today he would have been called a terrorist by Indians.)

Just to remind people that INC and even the CPI were not really keen on calling him a hero at that time. He was not even given a proper defense by Indians.

The influence of movies and the fake that goes with that has a huge influence on Indian minds. Because there were a few movies about him, all of a sudden he is the all time great.
There were tons of Indian before him who fought for Independence with civility and courage and attempted to keep the independence struggle within respectable boundaries.

There was a school of thought which perhaps was represented by outlaws like Bhagat Singh that believed that isolated acts of terror would bring Indian independence closer.

Actors like Bhagat Singh add romanticism to the whole struggle. Take the romanticism out and there is nothing left in Bhagat Singh story. Makes a good narrative but there is no real impact of what he did on Indian politics.

Until I hear from Independent sources about the Gormaukhi and Hindi books, I am not inclined to believe a word of Ahmed Salim.

e: # 20 and 23

I agree with you that Buddhism was long in decline by the time Muslims came to India, but was not completely out of the picture...what I said in # 17 was that the coup de grace to Buddhism in India was the sacking of monasteries like Nalanda which housed many monks and were centres of Buddhist learning...monks played a very important role in the propagation and explanation of Dharma to the laity and once they were out of the picture, what was left of Buddhism in India came to an end...Muslims first attacked India in 712 A.D. and Nalanda was sacked in 1193 A.D...in the interim Buddhism was most definitely not "dead" but continued in pockets in India especially in the northwest under the Hindushahis and the northeast under the Palas...while the spread of Muslim rule is only one of many reasons, it is an important one.

You are absolutely right about Adi Sankara being a major reason for the strengthening of Hinduism and the decline in Buddhism's popularity...it was never a majority religion to begin with except in pockets here and there...most of the great Buddhist sites in the country were in fact commissioned by rulers who had Brahmanical leanings (there is a very good article in the current issue of Frontline magazine about that)...once the patronage from kings for stupas and monasteries stopped, Buddhism suffered further...nevertheless the Sangha carried on, weak and emaciated, but was not completely dead

regards

Re: # 22

I havn't said that. I was responding to kabuliwala's comment about muslims being responsible for ousting of Budhism from India, though some people do claim that Budhist monastries were destoyed by hindus and monks were killed and many monks ran away to eastern countries along with some old budhist literature. Did Rahul Sankretayan not go to Tibet in search of those old budhist monuscripts?

drlokraj, hope you don't believe Hindus went around slaughtering Buddhists or destroying libraries :)

Alihasan,

What are you talking about, disowning bhagat sing by whom, the pakistanis. Why should they preserve anything of bhagat sing. He was a hindu, an indian.

Alihasan, ask pakistanis about Abdus Salam, ask YLH about teh nobel prize winner, ask him whether an article should be written on chowk to celebrate his birth anniversary...even ask tahmed..all will say no, he was an ahmadia, a non muslim...what chance the kafir bhagat sing has got.

Wake up Alihasan, you have been away for so long , listen to teh children of TNT, the ones who are guided only by the doctrine that muslims cannot live with people of other religions. Alihasan, name that man who created that ideology.

Re: # 17
Budhism was dead long ago before the muslims set their feet on Indian soil and hindu renaissance by Shankar Acharya was responsible for this.

Simple logic -

If it is in Quran then it is has already been revealed and is redundant. It is not in Quran it is Kufr and needs to be destroyed.


Either way it is to be destroyed.

So the Bedouin Logic reigns supreme in Islam!!!

Throwing a piece of history into a ganda nalla is probably similar to desecrating a grave...a cowardly and "safe" way of taking out frustration on a dead person who symbolizes something strong like religion, patriotism or whatever. The act actually reeks of fear that, even dead, that person or way of thought may exist in some way, in memory or history, and rise up to influence the present.So it ends up as an effort to try and wipe out facts and ignore or rewrite history to suit present needs.

# 16 Kaura bhai,

I agree with you on many things, but I think you are mistaken on this one...the only reason the great works of Greek thinkers like Aristotle have survived from the ancient times is because the early Arab Muslims had them translated into Arabic, like much of the great Iranian and Indian texts...the panchtantra for example...it was from these Arabic translations that the Christian West, much later on, salavaged Greek Philosophers' works and had them translated into Latin and other languages.

Having said that, Muslims in India, Turks most likely, burnt down the great libraries at monasteries, which contained great tomes of Buddhist and Eastern philosphy...Nalanda in particular...in fact the sacking of Nalanda sounded the death knell of Buddhism in India, which had been in a long decline from earlier times.

regards

The destruction of books....reminds me of more famous catastrophe perpetuated by plate pissers in Alexandria....

another reason the Christains left muslims behind...
Euro/Christians have embraced their Greek and Roman foundations and past....muslims continue to delve in darkness like pigs roll in filth.....
you can't reason with people mad and blind with religious fanaticism.....

Re: # 12

My only point is that the part of the shared history that a party does not need, could have been respectfully handed over to the other who values them more. Then again I have known bitter divorces where the outcome had been worse than consigning them to ganda nala, while in the other shared things were indeed handed over, however sad the situation. The action indeed reflects on the party.

drlokraj, obviously, not everyone in Pakistan could have supported getting rid of those (or any other) books. Even if zia had conducted a referendum asking whether he could replace those books with better books, he would not have won over all people.

(It seems like such a trivial issue. Why we are getting so excercised about it, and 'blaming zia' - I just don't know.

Had there been a good numbers of lovers and scholars of Hindi/Sanskrit/Gurumukhi who protested then, or now, in Pakistan, one would have thought at least Pakistanis had something to worry about.)

kaal, just because Zia was heading the country, that too in a un-constitutional way, it does not mean that he represented what all people of Pakistan shared his view on the collective past.

anil ji, perhaps we as Indians are very attached to Guru Ram Singh and Shaheed Bhagat Singh. It may be (since we do not have his explicit opinions) that that is why Zia had to/wanted to throw them in ganda nala. And many would agree with him.

------
Now, no one is arguing that these things had no value for anybody. Only that they did not and need not have for some people.

Kaal:

There is a shared history, no point getting judgmental about it. Yes, there is a right choose that exclusively belongs to those who exclusively own. The question is no as simple, when it arises out of a shared history / past.

I do not see any sensible rational in throwing Hindi and Gurmukhi books in a ganda nala, or withholding information on Guru Ram Singh, and Shaheed Bhagat Singh. These are out of shared past.

Kaal,

Thanks. Complaining and moralizing is also a sword though perhaps not as effective (I have to agree). Your views as a Pakistani, must cause much palpitation in many a liberal Pakistani heart :) But point taken, boss.

GT, it seems to me that a lot of things are decided by those who have the (bigger) swords. It's only the losing side that habitually complains, and moralizes.

Was it worth the trouble of keeping all those books? Had I been a Pakistani I would have said, no. As an Indian, I would have (if I could afford) paid to bring them to India and preserve them.

Dear kaal:

You say,

"One ALWAYS has to pick and choose from one's past: what to remember, what to forget, and what to celebrate. One creates the past depending upon what kind of future one hopes for."

OK. But one should be able to pick and choose FROM a set of alternatives. Isn't that so? But here that set of alternatives is being destroyed. Now you may say that even that is fine. But then WHO decides as to which alternative should be destroyed from the set? The individual .... or someone else who knows what is good for that other individual. How does this ALL-KNOWING gentleman get to become all-knowing? Is he selected by people/god etc. Or is it the case that we all know what is good for others. Who-ever has the bigger sword then gets to decide for all others. If so, then is this also OK?

I would be extremely grateful if you could give a straight-forward answer, unlike those given by your social-science friends from Cornell and Stanford.

Zia'd have given those books to us than throwing them in gutter. ;-)

Re: # 5 Mr. Ras... people are not rejecting past, people are on hard times, just one has to work like animal ox to survive. There is time to remember or for sentimentality , this all heritage etc is western elite concept . To remember past is grief what we have become of whose ancestors conquired all world ( Ottoman + Mughal empire), when believers were surrounding Vienna and what have become of bus begging to western elites and begging to have right to vote. Better we forget past as study of past will make us shameful. Instead what our forefathers did we should do little.
Sorry for disagreeing.

Cemendtaur Sahib (aka Mr. C),

thanks for this beautiful writing and for exposing the truth

through Ahmad Salim about how Pakistanis reject their

heritage.

Please keep contributing on CHOWK and Pakistan Link.

Best Wishes,

Ras

It sad thing to read. But nothing against Mr. Singh as such. Now nobody cares even of Quaid. Its generic, people are tired od politicians even good. There is fatigue. Time creates heros and swallows also. Today leaders are PM aziz, presdent general , and so on . No body will miss them tomorrow just like general A,Y,Z and now General M, name will be rememberd may be due to misdeeds. KInd of life has become too fast to have time for reverence, life is fast and just sentimentalit is out. Time are appearing for old times like me but time will come for new young people when they will remember this as gone great times. Please read article about W.Stan that is new era. good morning.

Too much self-flagellation here. One ALWAYS has to pick and choose from one's past: what to remember, what to forget, and what to celebrate. One creates the past depending upon what kind of future one hopes for.

Bhagat Singh was a no doubt a great man, and few would disagree regarding the need to celebrate his life. But this shouldn't turn into a mess.

just reproducing a Daghistani saying which I read in Rasul Hamzatov's 'Mera Daaghistan':
"If you fire at your past with a pistol, the future will blow you out with a cannon"

I read whatever part of Shauqat Sardar's autobiography was published in Preetlari and was wondering why the publication was stopped midway.

Thank you for this...I myself am discovering the true Bhagat Singh and his ideology, trying to extricate him from the mythology that surrounds the great man...efforts of Ahmad Salim Saab will go a long way in that...I am grateful to him.

regards