Voice from Waziristan

Re: # 67

Economical integration with hand in hand with political integartion is the only solution. One without the other is abmysal failure.

Re: # 66

Strange as it may seem the tribals are allotted a dozen of seats in the National Assembly of Pakistan to partake in making laws for the country which do not apply upon them. Moreover they are allowed utilities like electricity but they seldom pay the bill for it. WAPDA which is a terror for Pakies in general becomes a 'bheegi bili, vis a vis, the tribals.

An acquantis of mine, an XEN WAPDA, appoited in the tribal areas once narrated the following story to me of his altercation with a tribal:

XEN: Khan why don't you pay the bill.

Khan: What for?

XEN: For the electricity you used.

Khan: Who used eletricity? 'Kho chih' your electricity comes in through one wire and goes out through the other. I don't take out any of it. On the other hand it fuses my bulbs some time.

Only a tribal can dare say such a thing to WAPDA.

Fellow Pakistanis,

There is nothing to rejoice for us Indians over what is happening in swat. Ironically the safest place for Pakistani Army is LOC.

Correct me if I am wrong. The problem with tribal areas is that they never integrated with main land Pakistan and it's culture. However great administrator Mr. Jinnah was, he made this great mistake. He never integrated the tribes in Ferderal main stream and gave them too much autonomy.

Coming back to what I was going to post.

Zee,

we have discussed this in the past. In our first interact you had said we are like this only and I had told you then change.

Many of you are fond of saying that there is a Surah in the koran that says (Though a former VHP colleague who is a Hafeez say it is untrue) "Who saves one life saves manking and who kills one kill entire mankind", in light of this what do you suppose you attitude should be.

If AQ is justified in striking America for its support to Israel then so is America hustified in retaliating against those it considers supporters of AQ.

Anyway the moot point to be considered is how can you cut your losses without invoking the wrath of either side (Waziris and America) to see that this deshat gardi is stopped in both your country and ours.

Sanatani

Re: # 56

I was going to reply to your post but could not find it. 1st typed zee then zeem I recall reading the Pakistan urdu primer that Zeem se Zalim show s a Sikh. Are you Zalim or Sikh?

Sanatani

By Monday, however, they had retreated to their fortified positions. In Kabal, the police and the Frontier Corps troops had to retreat inside the large police station compound and build fortifications to ward off attacks by local fighters.

In sharp contrast, armed local Taleban man a check-post in full strength, barely 50 metres down the street from the police station.

"In battle, government troops are only trained to run away," remarks Akbar Hussain, the Taleban commander for Kabal region.

"We don't want to kill them because they are also Muslim, but [the country's military ruler] Gen Musharraf is using them to advance the Americans' agenda."
/////////////

The above is from bbc. It has only confirmed what I had been posting, teh pak troops are only trained to run away or to surrender. No other country would have named teh greatest surrender general a Tiger, tiger Niazi.

Thanks Zee,

The tribal areas seem to have gone once and for all for pakistan. Since it is not part of pakistan, now the US can call in the B52s. It is time that Pakistan formally renounce AWFP.

By the way, did you know that earlier there was east and west pakistan, and after Bangladesh was created, nothing was done to rename teh west pakistan as " pakistan".

So the same process can be continued, the NWFP is gone, but still it is pakistan. By teh way the nukes were meant to protect the territorial integrity of pakistan, nuking teh tribals appear to be the best option.

Dear Mr. Ahmadmadani,

(It appears foreign powers ( indo,afghan) are involved in this type of activity.)

If what you are saying is true, this would prove my friend Manto mian's allegation of a Gandhian-Deobandi conspiracy againt the bholi bhali Pak Awaam.

(And greedy people advocating more trade with India. )

Why would greedy people advocating Indo-Pak trade want to blow up the Sargodha Air base.

Regards

madani saab 59,

You might be correct in the indian support for the tribals and possibly it is known to the pak troops. Another 40 have surrendered to teh tribals today. It may take a while to beat the dacca record, but we are on track.

Re: # 55 Indo/afghan terror raw type people may be paying for suicide bombers. One has to take in to account, the attack occured in Sindh on aerobase which keeps tight attention indian air acrivity. Sakkar and Badin arbases and raders can become target as Surgodha, sukkar and Badin trilaterally keep air spacesafe and watch carefully all air activity in India.It appears foreign powers ( indo,afghan) are involved in this type of activity. And greedy people advocating more trade with India.

Re: # 55

"Surrendering to the indians appear to be the best option for the pak troops at present."

What an option!

But who will get them freed now? Benazir, the daughter of Bhutto who had got 90,ooo of them freed previously but got hanged in recompense.

zee

I told you - kill your own kanjaroons, that a fight you can win... don't even think about hinuds... we will nuke your a## before you can say allah... muslim life means nothing to us - you know that already don't you? :)

#55 Posted by jayp,

There's an order to all this mayhem. After we get this sorted out, we're coming after you ... so rejoice while you can.

The great paki army modelled on the jihadic priciples and the traditions of Gaznavi are being hunted by teh tribals of waziristan. In waziristan the paki troops are surrendering, and now they are being killed in islamabad. What a set of sad policies, teh strategic depth notion taht created the taliban is driving the pak troops to the arabian sea, or to another surrender ceremony, this time at teh wagha border.
Surrendering to the indians appear to be the best option for the pak troops at present.

from dawn of today. Zeemax, where are you, bagdad has come to pakistan. Pakistan banega iraq...well it is similar to kashmir banega pakistan..isnt it.

Suicide attack on Pakistan air force bus kills eight ISLAMABAD, Nov 1 (AFP): - A suicide bomber rammed his explosives-laden motorbike into a bus carrying Pakistani air force officials on Thursday, killing at least eight and wounding 40 others, officials said. Private TV channels reported that the death toll had risen to nine. “The bus was carrying trainee flying officers when it was attacked by the suicide bomber” in the Sargodha district of central Punjab province, interior ministry spokesman Brigadier Javed Cheema told AFP. “Eight air force officials died in the terrorist attack,” Cheema said, and around 40 were wounded. “It was a suicide attack and the target was the bus which was carrying the air force officials,” chief military spokesman Major General Waheed Arshad said. The dead included a squadron leader, two airmen and five trainee flying officers, security officials said on condition of anonymity. The bomber's dismembered head was found at the scene while some pieces of his body were stuck to the exterior of the bus, police officer Hamid Javed said. The bus itself was badly mangled in the blast. “It was a huge bang and was heard several kilometres away,” a police officer said. Ambulances raced the casualties to local

surrender monkeys gets their butts kicked...

INSIGHT: Troubled state —Ejaz Haider

The state’s approach to insurgency in parts of the North-West Frontier Province, right now in Swat, suffers from two problems. Let’s begin with the first and the most glaring one: the frontier is all but lost. And it’s a full-spectrum failure, ranging from military reverses to political and ideological loss.

This is not a pessimistic view; it’s a realistic assessment. Consider.

What is happening in Swat is a replay of what we have seen in Waziristan, what we are witnessing in other tribal agencies, Bajaur for instance, and what we shall witness in the settled lowlands of NWFP if this tide cannot be stemmed.

The military defeat is obvious. Forget the drubbing the security forces have got in Waziristan. In Swat’s Kabal area, the so-called peace, the tense calm, is not a product of the two sides realising that neither can defeat the other and therefore both must disengage and find a solution, but the extremists holding fire because the security forces have blinked and want to resolve the issue through a jirga.

“Resolution” in all such cases means one thing: acceptance of loss of control and territory to non-state actors. As someone said, while one should never fear to negotiate, one should never negotiate out of fear.

The security forces have no response to the simple and effective weapon, the suicide bomber. Two suicide attacks, kidnappings of security forces personnel and beheadings, three of them publicly, have done two things: inflicted on the state a heavy cost of mobilisation and sent the security forces suing for peace.

The cost factor, direct and indirect, cannot be ignored. How much does a suicide belt cost? RDX is easy enough to procure; the rest — ball-bearings, nails, sharp metal pieces etc — can be got from a local machinist. This shouldn’t be more than a max of Rs10,000, RDX counted. Using a vehicle is more expensive, but even that is a fraction of the cost of a helicopter gunship flight.

This cost differential has also to be seen in relation to effectiveness. How effective has the state been in establishing its writ and taking out the militants? Has the sledgehammer killed the fly? No.

Why? As Hannah Arendt said in her essay On Violence, quoting from Vladimir Dedijer’s The Poor Man’s Power: “...in conventional warfare the poor countries are much less vulnerable than the great powers precisely because they are ‘under-developed’, and because technical superiority can ‘be much more of a liability than an asset’ in guerrilla war.”

True enough. Barry Posen spoke of the “contested zone” where hi-tech largely becomes useless in the face of a determined adversary. Students of warfare know how difficult it is to engage and win against an adversary that is difficult to identify and has the advantage of terrain, kinship bonds and internal lines of communication.

Add to this list, in this case, the fact that the security forces are fighting people who belong to the same tribes and areas from where the army and paramilitaries get a high percentage of their recruitment, that the security personnel also have the same conservative approach to religion, that the military operations are politically unpopular in the country and we have a situation that is hopeless from the perspective of the state.

At the minimum it puts tremendous strain on the organisational cohesion and operational effectiveness of the security forces. Dr Rasul Bakhsh Rais wrote an incisive piece in this space on Tuesday asking “Whose war is this?” The answer, if we go by majority opinion in this country is, America’s.

This brings us to the second problem. Even if we discount the military disadvantage the security forces have in exactly the same proportion that the militants have the advantage on the ground, we have a scary scenario: the state may be trying to do something for which it has no popular, political backing.

A double-whammy it would be. It has lost territory and control against the militants on the periphery and since its struggle is not backed by popular opinion in the country, it may have forfeited its legitimacy — or be in the process of losing it — at the centre also.

The point is that carrying out a military operation is difficult enough under the circumstances; but it is downright hopeless when the very approach is considered flawed by the people. Let’s consider the argument in favour of a political, reconciliatory approach.

One point needs clarification at the very outset. Military alone cannot deliver a solution and — as should be clear from excerpts we are carrying from Clausewitz’ On War — its use has to be part of a viable policy. In areas hit by insurgency and strife, the military’s primary function is to create space for negotiations from a position of strength.

What kind of political solution can we expect when the state has capitulated militarily before the militants? Logically, such a solution cannot be in favour of the state. There is no concept of negotiations between a victor and a vanquished. The latter simply has to accept the demands imposed on it by the former.

If this is what we mean by a political process then the best thing to do would be to pull back the army and allow the militants to take over and create their own laws and political system in the areas liberated from state control. If everyone is happy with this victory, so be it.

But let’s take this to its logical conclusion. If the rest of Pakistan is not comfortable with the system the militants want, then the logic of ending the military operation in the NWFP would take us to accepting that the state has lost the major part of its cis-Indus territories, at least west of Attock.

Once that happens and it will, going by this logic, then external actors will move into the power vacuum to neutralise an adversary they consider as a clear-and-present danger. Are we prepared to accept that?

Here’s the paradox then: the military has so far been ineffective and its presence is being criticised; but if it is pulled back, we might as well say goodbye to state control in the NWFP.

Is there a solution?

If the logic of pulling back the military is not accepted and the assumption is that it is not, unless we want the scenario presented above, then the issue that needs to be addressed is whether and how the military can be used more effectively. That issue needs to be tackled separately; it is also a tale of ironies. We shall return to it.

#52 kaalchakra: did you mean Arjun VI?

arjun,

"how people who've been soooo wrong in the past"

That's not fair. People were right. Only the bad world (US/India/Israel) came in the way.

#47 Posted by DrDr on October 30, 2007 5:17:47 pm

It's funny how people who've been soooo wrong in the past about everything can still pretend to be brilliant analysts/thinkers.

Re: # 49

Just to benchmark.

Is this arjunX the same as Arjun_M and other arjunX's. There was one other arjun_X......

Re: # 43 Arjun people of good taste demand you go home and take rest. Now you should know things change with time. But K problem is there and it is hurting india by 1000 cuts. While little encouragement for FF (Freedom fighers) get magnifide in effect. Just now general is stressed little so its good time to have give and take for future of India. If kashmir is not solved to satisfaction the wound of inda can be kept long as please. Do not get too smart and happy as either way who wins in W.STan is long term problems to india. Things can chage fast on ground. With new 31 helicopter Gunship army has become now mobile deadly accurate accuracy and trouble makers have no weapon against helicopter gunship. So if army wins then pressure on western will be reduced and army will turn attention to K front. If big push is given and one way ticket to FFs then hard time on India. If troublemakers win then it will be impossible for indian army. So either way India will be on pressure. It is good time to give and take before FF forces become strong. You need states man like general to calculated risk for peace.
Good day. You are quite miserable but has tenacity one has tto admit, but that is used for nonliberal attitude increase.

arjun come on dude, romair is no more wrong than the foreign policy wizzes who thot us iraqis wud welcome us soldiers as liberators
prognastication aint ez

NYtimes says some paki blew himself up in front Mushy's fortified compound...

there hamidm2, your wishes have been fulfilled by arjun5....

Dear Chowk Interactors,

Please be warned that interacting with "Arjun5", and being any combination of Pakistani, Muslim and/or disagreeing with his viewpoint makes it in his warped and abusive mind excusable for the following:

1. Using your real name with full maliciousness and impunity on chowk.com

2. Linking your name to slanderous and deceptively misleading google url spam entries to various webcrawling websites.

In the past month, my name and chowk have been linked to at least ten webcrawling sites and the support of "gitmo terrorists", the murder of a Christian Dalit woman, etc.

See the following example

"Chowk: Identity Politics Culture and Religion of
India Pakistanhere we go again...s.
s. advocating the cause of the gitmo
terrorists shouldn't you, perhaps, focus your energy
and limited intellect on ...
www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/45861 - 12k - Cached -
Similar pages - Note this"

webpage:
http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/45861


ALL these interacts are headed with a line written by "Arjun5".

Is this acceptable to interactors at chowk.com?

seriously...

Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad
Posted by Romair Sep 23, 2001 02:29 pm


The US will then push for a UN based solution which will divide Kashmir into three parts, with an independent Valley (something the Kashmir Study Group (and I) have been suggesting for a while). I think Musharraf has plans to stay as President for the next ten years. The US will ensure that it assists him during that time, and I see an independent Valley within the next five to ten years.

why not? It's fun...


Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad
Posted by Romair Sep 23, 2001 11:48 pm
Zahra #412: I had suggested before the interview that Benazir is now cornered. The whole world is now aware of her corruption. Her two trump cards of denouncing the military govt. and presenting herself as a, ``westernized`` alernative are down the drain, now also. She cannot criticize Musharraf as the US (and most Pakistanis) have now seems to have figured out that he is the right man to back.





Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad
Posted by Romair Sep 23, 2001 02:29 pm
Asif Naqshbandi #401: As someone who has followed the Kashmir issue more closely and personally than probably anyone on this site, I think I can safely state that Pakistan`s position is now stronger than it has ever been historically on the Kashmir issue. The chances of a Kashmir solution now are greater than they have ever been. India has never been in such a defensive position on this issue, as it is right now.

The US stance has always been to support the right of self-determination in Kashmir. The US is not going to do anything against Pakistan now. Nothing. Zero. This is a new phase of a long-term alliance, with Musharraf at the head. He is becoming a hero in the US media circles. His definition of differentiating between fighting terrorism and supporting freedom fights is now going to become the international standard, as he is one of the only people in the world whose govt. has actively participated in both. A friend of a friend in the Pakistani Foreign Service told me that Bush called Musharraf and emotionally told him if he opposed the US, Pakistan would turn into Afghanistan, and if he supported the US, the US would ensure that Pakistan becomes a very prosperous country. Mush

should I go on?

yup..when it rains, it pours...now all the helicopters are being used to bomb the tribals...

Islams Challenge
Posted by Romair Sep 28, 2001 08:53 pm
When it rains, it pours:

``US to offer emergency military sales to Pakistan

$75m package may comprise gunship helicopters, equipment for patrolling Pak-Afghan border`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

It seems like the same is starting to happen again. However, this time there is a different twist. Unlike during the Afghan war, the average American is now also aware of Pakistan, and is starting to support Pakistan. Also, the US senators and senior govt. officials are making it a point to state that they will not, ``dump`` Pakistan, this time around.

wow..look how right romair was about mushy..

Islams Challenge
Posted by Romair Sep 29, 2001 01:03 pm
rjanjua #257: ``That man has done an excellent job so far (considering the fact that he is a gunner).``

He is also the Chief commando. So that is a another negative on the intellectual side. However, what people keep forgetting is that he was born in Delhi. His parents and grandparents grew up in India. This fact alone makes him more balanced and intelligent than all us easily-provoked ignoromoses from the Northeast. He has the intelligence, shrewdness, and cunning of an Indian, and the aggressiveness and fearlessness of a Pakisani. Best of both worlds. Unlike, some previous military and civilian commanders who had the intelligence, shrewdness, and cunning of a Pakistani, and the aggressiveness and fearlessness of an Indian. And he is a flaming liberal (a side of his personality, he has yet to show), which is the kind of personality the currently overly conservative Pakistan needs at the helm.

I had been backing him from the day the coup was carried out. Infact, it was very easy to do so. I have worked with and met enough Generals to be able to differentiate between the genuine honest ones and the self-serving ones. At the expense of sounding like a racist, a non-MQM Muhajir leadership is the best kind of leadership for Pakistan, at the moment, in my opinion. This is exactly what the current leadership is. And if Pakistanis would develop enough common sense to leave behind their theoretical Western democracy books, and think with Pakistani practicality, they will realize that that this is exactly the leadership Pakistan needs for the next ten years.

we need some insights into the pakistan situation from the poster called romair..he was a brilliant analyst..his ability to predict events is unmatched..


A World Upside Down
Posted by Romair Oct 5, 2001 11:58 am



Pakistan is now in an interesting position.

It is already the most allied of allies with China. It is also now a very strong ally of the US. Also, Pakistan, along with Saudia Arabia, has become the most critical country amongst the leadership (or benchmark) of the Muslim world of 55 countries.

Pakistan is now in a much stronger position on Kashmir now than it was at the time of the coup.

If the Indian leadership is realistic, it should reach a settlement on Kashmir now. Otherwise, in two years, Pakistan will most likely be in a stronger situation than now. If things pan out the way I think they are, i.e. Musharraf as a powerful President keeping the corruption of an elected assembly in check, and the West, China and Islamic world pumping money into Pakistan, in ten years Pakistan may reach an economic situation where Pakistan will then refuse to negotiate on Kashmir.


If Pakistan returns to its traditional 6% growth rates, and is simultaneously an ally of China, US and the Islamic world, then the options available to India in Kashmir will be much more limited than they are now. And even now, they are much more limited than they were at the time of coup.

So if anyone in India is listening: negotiate on Kashmir while you still have some cards up your sleeve, would be my advice.

#34 Posted by bulleya on October 30, 2007 5:31:40 am


....the only way talibanisation can occur in Pakistan is if the govt. keeps bombing waziristan.....and that too, at the encouragement of usa.....


yup..quite the dilemma...either you bomb the pakis with the jihadi bent or the US bombs you...the result is the same...bombs in pakiland..




to attack pakistan and will carry out an explosion in pindi or islamabad....


yup..either it's the jihadi bombs going off in pindi or US bombs...

dhobi ka fauji, na allah ka na amrika ka..


pakistan, through the stupidity of a few heavily pro-usa elite, is in the first stages of becoming iraq......


you mean like the pro-US elite who were itching to join the US invasion of afghanistan so much so that they were willing to give up their "IT careers"?

or the pro-US elites who thought, with uncle sam's wind in it's sails, pureland could afford to continue to nurture the jihadis and sic them on india...


......there is a simple solution, stop bombing waziristan.....stay out of us wars


this one line explains why pureland is so messed up..pakis, even to this day, have deluded themselves into believing that they were willing participants in the war on terrorism and weren't dragged into it by threats..

Re:bulleya
"......there is a simple solution, stop bombing waziristan.....stay out of us wars..."

Amazing strategery!! Pakistan's elites have sold their souls to the US, not today but many decades back. Do you think they have the testicular fortitude to stand up to the US and declare that they opt out of the war on terror? Look at the way the Indian polity is debating the civilian nuclear deal and in fact scuttling it to avoid diluting any sovereignity. If this was Pakistan, everyone would bend over backwards to sign on the dotted line as long as the US gave some crumbs.

After all this time, if Pakistan decides to thumb its nose at the US, you know what will happen. The US will lash out in the most vicious manner. There is nothing more infuriating or humiliating than to see a slave stand up to its master. Its not for nothing that Powell threatened Musharraf with "bombing back to the stone age".

Basically the Pak elite is caught between a rock and a hard place - F16 bombs vs suicide bombs. It remains to be seen which set of bombs will prevail.

Romair,

(stay out of us wars)

Easier said than done. Do you think USA will allow Pak to stay away from the WOT?

(when in afghan war 1, pakistan supported, uncoditionally, the usa.......)

What you have chosen to omit is the fact that Pakistan did so in its own (perceived) self-interest- Billions of dollars in civil and military aid, expansionist ambitions in J&K and Afghanistan

Regards

....the only way talibanisation can occur in Pakistan is if the govt. keeps bombing waziristan.....and that too, at the encouragement of usa.....

....waziristanis have never been anti-pakistan.....they have never carried out violence against pakistan......why are they, all of sudden, ready to join taliban and al-qaeeda, in attacking pakistan.....in fact, why are taliban and al-qaeeda, themselves, attacking pakistan, when they have never done so before.....

......the answer is simple....taliban, waziristanis and al-qaeeda consider usa their enemy.....so they are in a state of war against the usa......it is a either you are with us or against us theory......so they will bomb anyone who assists the usa.......the easiest target is pakistan......

.....this is a very dangerous cycle.....pakistan will bomb waziristan, killing people.......somebody from there, will use taliban and al-qaeeda, as a vehicle, to attack pakistan and will carry out an explosion in pindi or islamabad....then pakistan will bomb again, under the premise that it needs to take out terrorism, forcefully......again someone will bomb pindi and islamabad.......eventually it will turn into a daily affair....

there will, of course, by people on both sides, encouraging both sides to militarily solve the problem....i.e. people pushing the pakistan govt. (usa govt., daily times, hamidm mian types) on one side, and al-qaeeda and taliban supporters on the other.....musharraf, needing usa support, will continue to bomb, regardless of consequence....his generals, to keep him happy, will continue complying.....any officer who does not obey is court-martialed and jailed (i know of some)......bb types will require us support to get elected, and will support attacks, in a round about manner......

pakistan, through the stupidity of a few heavily pro-usa elite, is in the first stages of becoming iraq......

......there is a simple solution, stop bombing waziristan.....stay out of us wars......this will make the local population pro-pakistan, again......after that, the popularity of talibn and al-qaeeda will automatically fall in those areas......taliban and al-qaeeda have no historical social base in pakistan.....

this whole problem started, when in afghan war 1, pakistan supported, uncoditionally, the usa.......

....it has been proven that there is absolutely no way to fight civilians through the military......it is being proven in iraq.......if the usa with a massive military cannot defeat iraqis, what chance does any other country have, with much tinier mlitaries.......

this is a social problem, not a military problem.......

#32 Posted by rf786 on October 30, 2007 2:49:10 am

the mullah dude thought the move to the new job would weaken the jihad...the support for jihad didn't actually diminish.

Re: # 28

Arjun Jee,

Can u please clarify this confuision:

"Musharraf, Aziz and Yusuf had run the proxy war in Kashmir in the early 1990s, and Aziz, a Kashmiri by birth, had been on the ground handling Musharraf's disastrous Kargil operation in 1999,"

After that u say:

"Aziz was so close to Pakistan's sponsored jihadi organisations that when Musharraf had tried to promote him to commander of 10 Corps (Rawalpindi) in October 1999 as a precursor to making him army chief, a job that would have brought him back to the capital, Jamaat-e-Islami and Maulana Fazlur Rahman of the Jamiat Ulema Islam protested, warning it would weaken the ihad in Kashmir"

Weaken the Jihad? These two statements self-contradictory? Maybe u can clarify.

Thanks

Atif: Yaraji, even a simpleton like me understands that it is the government itself, which is responsible. They have allowed them to grow to show the world that there is problem in these areas. Sometime, to show the world they attack them and then go about shouting about it. They do not even hesitate to sacrifice their own poor soldiers in the process. Tell me, if ISI is not helping them, then how come they have all the latest weapons except tanks and armored vehicles. Now, they have even acquired some armored vehicles also after kidnapping army convoy and are roaming around in it. Almost every single Taliban commander, however small and insignificant he may be, possesses four wheelers and roams around with the escort of bodyguards. Part of the money that is coming to combat terrorism is actually used to help them.
////////////////////////////

This is the best thing that can happen to any nation. Get money from the US for killing their own, and you do not want to finish all, so keep having the jihadis coming.

Most of the people of pakistan, other than the land lords who lived in that area, moved to pakistan in the hope of getting the assets left behind by the hindus. " read the article on Bhagat sing and it is occupied by a pakistani".

Pakistan has a history of people not having to work for a living and they construct ingenious ways to make easy money. The army has found the best of money making venture in teh jihadis. This is after cornering teh corn flakes and cement business, construction, transport and the public sector.

#29 Posted by mohar11 on October 29, 2007 1:29:44 pm

yup..if the koolaid he drank had one part per million of alchohol, he'd be dead by now...

Re: # 28

Now wait for the wagah-candle-holder-in-chief Mr bleeding heart Dost-Mitter to come out and make a speech on how india has to help when the neighbor house is on fire... even though the neighbor himself set his own house on fire... :)

Pakis are whacking each other...good...

roses are red, violets are blue
the jihadis you created, are now killing you..

Musharraf ran proxy war in Kashmir in 1990s: Book

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf [Images], Commander of 4 Corps (Lahore [Images]) Lt Gen Mohammed Aziz and Chief of General Staff Gen Mohammed Yusuf had run a proxy war in Jammu and Kashmir [Images] in the early 1990s, a new book has claimed.

"Musharraf and Aziz had trained together as commandos in the 1960s and, together with Yusuf, had played critical roles in the training of the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s under the tutelage of General Hamid Gul," the book Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Weapons Conspiracy stated.

"Musharraf, Aziz and Yusuf had run the proxy war in Kashmir in the early 1990s, and Aziz, a Kashmiri by birth, had been on the ground handling Musharraf's disastrous Kargil operation in 1999," the book by investigative journalists Adrian Levy and Catherin Scott-Clark said.

The authors are internationally renowned and award winning investigative journalists who worked as staff writers and foreign correspondents for the Sunday Times before joining the Guardian.

Aziz was so close to Pakistan's sponsored jihadi organisations that when Musharraf had tried to promote him to commander of 10 Corps (Rawalpindi) in October 1999 as a precursor to making him army chief, a job that would have brought him back to the capital, Jamaat-e-Islami and Maulana Fazlur Rahman of the Jamiat Ulema Islam protested, warning it would weaken the ihad in Kashmir.

Musharraf subsequently backed down, the authors said.

Aziz held great influence over Pakistan's president. He persuaded Musharraf against clamping down on the Taliban and Osama bin Laden as a result of the then US president Bill Clinton's [Images] visit to Islamabad in 2000 and he also vetoed US demands for action against Pakistan-based activities of outfits such as the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and Lashkar-e-Tayiba.

Aziz was promoted to chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, a position that until then Musharraf had retained for himself.

Yusuf was promoted to vice chief of army staff, the second most important job in the Pakistan army.

Thanks to youtube, we can now watch allah's army duking it out with the jihadis everynight over beer and popcorn.

"Me: What the tribal elders are doing about it?

Atif: What can they do; traditionally they were respected and obeyed but in new situation they are totally helpless."

This will prove to be a good thing in the long run for the people of that region. The erosion of tribalism in the favour of ideology is a logical step in the evolution of a society.

However, this is a very shitty thing for the rest of Pakistan, since they are hellbent on a confrontation with the US. Instead of bombing these poor people, we should let them go their own way and do their own thing.

seriously..I saw a hamid mir piece on youtube...the paki army is using artillery and helicopter gunships to kill allah's chosen muslims, the pakis..

that would be like india using artillery and heli-gunships in kulu-manali..any government that did that would be out on it's rear..

Klifton Khala Subha Subha to aap kelye haiN, hamarey liye do peher ka vaqt tha!

I do understand the diff between RSS and Taliban now!

I did see that expose that you are talking about it was on in August. What can i say the younger generation super gorafied Pakistani now cant even pronounce Urdu properly, lekin afsoos ki baat yeh haiN ke vo mujh se zyaada kam nahii haiN umer meiN!

Its amazing how lack of exposure and trying degrade ones mother tongue to such dismal levels of uselessness!

Now can you imagine his kids!!!

ally jan subha subha itni saleeq urdu ...

vaisay
you are right all violent fascist bigoted groups work the same way intellectually but the RSS/VHP are broad in their selectively (all hindus and even the muslims who support them). Also besides sporadically murdering muslims they dont have much interest in interfering in other peoples lives. They ceratinly are not one tenth as violent as the taliban. All the above make them fundamentally a much more reasonable group.

i just saw the BBC karachi expose by that guy from glascow on youtube (the one all about karachi models and so on) ...have you seen it?

Re: # 21 Kaal

they are different and operate at whole differnt levels...

Ally, it doesn't help calling them 'worse'. They are different, and if anyone wants to talk to them, it is important to know the difference.

For instance, it is easier for Hindus (not for you, nor for communists) to talk to RSS/VHP folks than it would be for you to engage in discussions people behind this movement.

It just is wise to know that difference.

well then they're even worse than RSS/VHP...

Re: # 18
[...these ppl are our RSS and VHP...]

You wish :)... For one, RSS/VHP do not kill their own...

Kaal

This is already happening, but the fact is, Talibanis dont want to even think about debating with other ideolgies, they are not really interested (can an unemployed, uneducated twit with a gun and a 4x4 with chamcha all around him really be concerned with this?)

OBL has done his thinking and has called all other Muslims muafiq/kafir etc.

Even on Chowk, look how hard it is to deal with the likes of Zeemax and Atif. These ppl are our RSS and VHP

KyuN Zee miaN lag gayee aag? Haqiqet ko kabul kar lena chahiye, yehi manfi nataij haiN shidet pasand tasavver ka.

Iss kism ke firqa varana dehshet gardo ko tercih dene valla sirf o sirf Pakistan ka dushman hi ho sakta haiN.

Klifton Khala

Aap ka manderja zel jevab bilkul durust haiN.

bhatti shaib, I am sure drlokraj means to be helpful, but one wouldn't make much progress believing that ideology has nothing to do with what people do.

IF anyone in Pakistan is interested in 'opposing' the implementation of Islamic sharia by waziristanis, they will have to engage the latter ideologically, and not just by force.

(When the fight is between Muslims and non-Muslims, ideological dialogue will be irrational, because no commonality of most important ideas is possible; but among Muslims, you can't avoid a discussion of ideology, of key ideas. Hope you see that.)

Touching story. Hope things improve for your friend and the people in Dera Ismail Khan

Re: # 12

Dr. ji, hope you are fine.

I hope that your analogy holds true and that this is a passing phase and will end soon.

Re: # 11

"One honest man is worth a million ideologues. Pakistani media and its opinionmakers however free and independent cannot see beyond their ideological mindsets and hence no such narrative will appear there. It is refreshing to read such simple descriptions of ground reality, unconstrained by any need to uphold pre-determined conclusions."

Well said!!

Hello Khalid,
good to see you on F P

Your article reminds of exactly similar situatin in Pujab(east) during Khalistani terror in 80s when lot of people, majprity hindus had to leave there own houses and business particularly from border areas of Amritsar and Gurdaspur to haryana or delhi. Most of the recruits into the khalistani fold were young men with pencnant for arms and sensation seeking. Many were just antisocial elements and the so called ideology had hardly anything to do with what they were doing. There was another phenomenon noted towards the fag end of that period that many so calld khalistanis were actually made to do abductions and take huge ransoms by some police officers and when they refused, they were killed in false encounters.
Another similarity in such 'movements' accross nations seems to be that they are almost always concentrated in border areas.
Hope,this is a passing phase and people start living normal life again.

One honest man is worth a million ideologues. Pakistani media and its opinionmakers however free and independent cannot see beyond their ideological mindsets and hence no such narrative will appear there. It is refreshing to read such simple descriptions of ground reality, unconstrained by any need to uphold pre-determined conclusions.

... A tale of three decades:

1979 - Russia invades Afghanistan. Afghan refugees head south and east to Pakistan. American support, money, training, and weapons are forthcoming. Mujahideen emerge; Jihadism is born.

2001 - America invades Afghanistan. Afghan refugees again head south and east to Pakistan tribal areas. Southern Afghanistan becomes war zone. Mujahideen morph overnight into terrorists.

2002 - 2005 Pak and American military action in the tribal areas. Jihadist/terrorists organize and mount resistance. Refugees move further south and east towards NWFP settled areas.

2005 - 2007 Further Pak-American military action in Waziristan and Bajaur. Jihadist/terrorists continue to retaliate. Move into Swat, Tank; cameo appearance in Bannu and D. I. Khan.

2007 - Pak determined to act in Waziristan and Swat. Jihadist/terrorists put on suicide bombing, kidnapping and beheading show. Resistance continues. Displacement of radicalized refugees further south and east into the NWFP.

2008 - Pak bombing missions in Peshawar and the rest of NWFP. Kidnappings, bombings, beheading continue. NWFP becomes war zone. Radicalized refugees head for attock.

... Pak militarty high command continues its deep meditation at the GHQ, eyes and minds wide shut. Other orifices, especially in the rear, working in overdrive.

Further into the future - Pak military action in Islamabad. Jihadist/terrorist head for the Punjabi heartland.
.
.
.

Jihadist/terrorists sighted in the outskirts of Karachi. Pak army in full retreat towards the Arabian Sea.

THis was predicted mr. Romair just few weeks back and people rediculed him. He correctly said "america is too strong and in they can not do any thing but they will hurt pakistanis as he is on ground." It is ironic he was considered fool and people rediculed. He suggested rightly do not actively oppose America but do not help her. Let them do whater they want. Then we can disengaged from American wars. THis has happened many times. In 1965 indian aggression and american arm embargo. 1971 india shamely invaded again usa china did do a dime. Afghan wars and we are left holding bags. As romair said before afghan war there were no suicide bombers or terrorists , army was never challenged, now little Leaders are having little lakshars, drugs and gun running. NOw it is even hard to think this gun and drug and terror culture will go away even after american exit. Time will only tell.
Hope people do not talk about and redicule person just because he has better understaning things on ground.
Thanks Mr. Romair putting things bluntly and not massaging facts to hit.

This is the really sad truth of today.

Pakistanis are at a loss as to what to do about this problem

God save the country from those that claim to represent God!

This is one of the most significant articles to appear on

CHOWK in quite a while. Thank you Khalid Bhatti Sahib.

First the cover of Newsweek and now this.

It will take a lot more than the Pakistan Army and helpless

Jiyalas to defeat this problem.

These days everybody blames Al Quida for every ill of Pakistan. How is it possibele. I do not believe this exaggerated propaganda. I bet it is created , generated by Ameican, Indian and Zionist intelligence agencies.

Kamath

Re: # 5

Sorry I have a correction to make:

Please read 'accusing' instead of 'accuse' at the end of the third line of para 2nd.

Thanks

Khalid

What is required now is the soul-searching by the people of Pakistan who used to looking at religion as a panacea. But this is what the people would never dare to do under the present milieu. When their very leaders assumed to be moderate and liberal like Benazir and Musharraf use religion as a political stunt how can you expect the people doing any soul-searching. Just see Benazir: While commenting on the recent bomb attack on her rally in Karachi, she says that no Musalman can do that, but then goes on to accuse some Muslim political leaders for the attack. And Musharraf goes on bragging off and on about the opening of the doors of Kahbah for him for six times. In fact the very identity of the Pakies is in crisis. In a country claimed to have been established on the basis of a faith the very faith of all its citizens has been made questionable.

Interestingly, there were times when the Pakhtoons had extreme nationalistic tendencies; so much so, that some of the Pakhtoon activists against One Unit during fifties would accuse Punjabies of using Islam for imposing their hegemony over entire Pakistan would openly threaten that they would relinquish Islam enmasse if their province was not restored. But today the position has somewhat been reversed. The same Pakhtoons today are using Islam as to threaten the very existence of Pakistan by making it the most dangerous country in the eyes of the world.

In the circumstances I would advise you to use ‘Imam Zamin’ and sacrifice black goats as many as you can afford as is being done by Benazir herself and by her ‘Jialas’ on her behalf.

You are just the wrong person to discuss this subject with! Better be all prepared for your exams! :)

--------------

Cliffs, one just hopes outsiders are not imposing their own values on people of the region, even if they believe those to be 'better' values...

From what one reads, people of the area really want sharia to be implemented fully (zee has written a few posts explaining some relevant history too).

"smacks of elitist fascism, and of disrespect for others" yes the taliban are 100% fascist and disrespectful but elite ? i didnt know that :)

I am not sure kaal that any of this was elitest its not taliban vs just the elite (which is the charismatic version spread only on the internet) its taliban against anyone who isnt taliban. He is absolutely right ...i have family in quetta and its much the same story there except it is less violent ofcourse. Luckily most of my family had the good sense to leave many years ago..... but i remember as a child visiting quetta and going to peoples weddings .....there was not much dancing but a long of singing and mehndi and diyas what have you. From what i hear going to a wedding in quetta now is like visiting a morgue.
You and zee may not think thats improtant but its a metaphor for the way these dementors (harry potter reference) have destroyed everything and replaced it with ...what exactly ? what have they ever achieved besides oppressing women and institutionalising cruelty and illiteracy?

Somehow this article smacks of elitist fascism, and of disrespect for others.

Oh ... so we find it is all about brainwashing (whatever that is), ISI, criminals, and US money. Good to know it's that simple. Surely that can be fixed.

when we went around dancing at the beat of “Dhol”. I think it would be a very long time till we are able to hear the beat of “dhol” and voices of joy again in those areas, if any at all.

Certainly you will, but you're correct not in those areas. However you will for sometime hear those at Data Darbar and Baba Shah Jamal for a bit more time. So meet your friend in Lahore.