Chowk November 3, 2007
#78 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 5:04:45 pm
DM #70 I guess "because he thinks he can" is the part of the answer. "Indispensable" would be part of the answer if you still seriously think that Musharraf really cares about Pakistan. Another part is - because he has some serious financial incentives to stay in power (keep this in mind, since these things always surface in due course).
Your answer on Ayub Khan is based on suppositions and is clearly wrong. This wont cause you to change your mind, and not to get sidetracked in the usual India-Pakistan one-upmanship, but the fact is that no one in Pakistan ever thought we lost the 1965 war. 1971 yes, but not 1965. Pakistani morale was never as high as during and after the war. The reason Ayub left was something totally different - after 10 years, people were fed up of his self-promotion and corruption of his relatives. He left because of demonstrations triggered by high price of sugar which was rumored to be caused by his confidante the Nawab of Hoti, demonstrations left several people dead, and the army refused to kill any more of its own people and the generals told him to step aside.
Your answer on Ayub Khan is based on suppositions and is clearly wrong. This wont cause you to change your mind, and not to get sidetracked in the usual India-Pakistan one-upmanship, but the fact is that no one in Pakistan ever thought we lost the 1965 war. 1971 yes, but not 1965. Pakistani morale was never as high as during and after the war. The reason Ayub left was something totally different - after 10 years, people were fed up of his self-promotion and corruption of his relatives. He left because of demonstrations triggered by high price of sugar which was rumored to be caused by his confidante the Nawab of Hoti, demonstrations left several people dead, and the army refused to kill any more of its own people and the generals told him to step aside.
#77 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 4:59:14 pm
#74 Tauheed Sahib
I believe that the Dilip Kumar is still available. I think he can fill in the Mughal role excellently - he has a proven track record!
Besides, with a last name like Kumar, there is zero possibility of his getting anything wrong or messing anything up!
#76 Posted by Ras on November 3, 2007 4:58:28 pm
Mush Sahib,
Three suggestions (not necessarily in order)
1) Release Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan
2) Let Benazir continue her work
3) Watch your ......
#75 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 4:55:56 pm
#73 Tahmed32
Tauheed sahib, in my opinion, the Mushy had it made. He was THIS close to a deal with the BeeB which would have allowed him a graceful way to fade away - like old soldiers are supposed to!
But the nasha of power got the better of his common sense!
As many chowkies have pointed out, the BeeB is not EVERYTHING one is looking for (except perhaps in the looks department) but at least she would be a step in the right direction!
BTW, the Mushy will grow old a lot quicker if he stopped using his khizab!
Tauheed sahib, in my opinion, the Mushy had it made. He was THIS close to a deal with the BeeB which would have allowed him a graceful way to fade away - like old soldiers are supposed to!
But the nasha of power got the better of his common sense!
As many chowkies have pointed out, the BeeB is not EVERYTHING one is looking for (except perhaps in the looks department) but at least she would be a step in the right direction!
BTW, the Mushy will grow old a lot quicker if he stopped using his khizab!
#74 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 4:51:14 pm
Naqshbandi: Inspired by your for the return of the Mughal-e-Azam, let us altogether say:
Zaheer-ud-Din Babar for Ruthless Ruler!! Long Live Zaheer-ud-Din Babar and the Bloodthirsty Mughlya Khaandaan!! Down with Highways and Low-Income Housing, and up with the Mughliya Palaces and Monuments to their Dead Beloveds.
Zaheer-ud-Din Babar for Ruthless Ruler!! Long Live Zaheer-ud-Din Babar and the Bloodthirsty Mughlya Khaandaan!! Down with Highways and Low-Income Housing, and up with the Mughliya Palaces and Monuments to their Dead Beloveds.
#73 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 4:49:06 pm
bjkumar: I am trying (as always) to look for a silver lining in the dark clouds. Here it is: even (worst case)if he manages to cling to power, Musharraf cannot stop himself from growing older and weaker with each passing day, so his time too will come. So, the worst this man can do is delay freedom to Pakistanis. Even he cannot deny it forever. :-)
#72 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 4:46:16 pm
I just watched (parts of) the video of miaN Mushy's speech. It is enough to bring tears to most warm-hearted people (DM-jee does not count because by definition, anybody living in Canada is to be considered ice cold). It was a good presentation and convinced me that without the good-old miaN Mushy, there never would be or could be or could have been a Pakistan!
Like the rock of Gibraltar, he stands and blocks the way of the bearbed attackers single-handedly (and he will scratch the faces of those who say that he actually allows them cover to operate).
And from that sacred task of defending the world from the Jihadis, he will not be dissuaded - come what may! (Or June, or July,...)
In fact, he is like an adhesive - he is the real superglue of Pakistan - he holds each of the four provinces in each of his hands (and feet) and by sheer will-power and his glue-force, keeps them attached together - at considerable physical anguish and pain to himself! (Or he perhaps just needed some laxative!)
Like the rock of Gibraltar, he stands and blocks the way of the bearbed attackers single-handedly (and he will scratch the faces of those who say that he actually allows them cover to operate).
And from that sacred task of defending the world from the Jihadis, he will not be dissuaded - come what may! (Or June, or July,...)
In fact, he is like an adhesive - he is the real superglue of Pakistan - he holds each of the four provinces in each of his hands (and feet) and by sheer will-power and his glue-force, keeps them attached together - at considerable physical anguish and pain to himself! (Or he perhaps just needed some laxative!)
#71 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 4:33:15 pm
#69 Naqshbandi sahib
[bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph). ]
Be careful, miaN hamidm2 will quickly disclaim his lineage to Gramps Gopinath and start bragging about his Mughal connections!
#70 Posted by dost_mittar on November 3, 2007 4:29:39 pm
tahmed32#63:
"The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?"
Because he thinks he can. He probably also believes that he is indispensable. And he still has the backing of the two of the three forces whose support is needed to govern Pakistan - Allah, Army and Amreeka.
Moreover, Ayub went because Bhutto was successful in convincing Pakistanis that Ayub lost the war against India in Tashkant that the Pakistani soldiers had won in the field. Yahya had to go because he lost the war against India. Neither of them was needed by the U.S.
"The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?"
Because he thinks he can. He probably also believes that he is indispensable. And he still has the backing of the two of the three forces whose support is needed to govern Pakistan - Allah, Army and Amreeka.
Moreover, Ayub went because Bhutto was successful in convincing Pakistanis that Ayub lost the war against India in Tashkant that the Pakistani soldiers had won in the field. Yahya had to go because he lost the war against India. Neither of them was needed by the U.S.
#69 Posted by Naqshbandi on November 3, 2007 4:19:15 pm
bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph). then round up all the waderas, army generals, political mullahs, politicians and put them up against the wall and shoot them. after that have fair and free elections with only those allowed to stand those whose families have NEVER had anyone stand before. Then turn pakistan into a consitutional monarchy. Or, better still, find a sayyid who is also an alim and make it into a constitutional caliphate.
#68 Posted by mohar11 on November 3, 2007 4:12:59 pm
BJ
[...if our Pakistani brothers had a change of heart AND the mindset!...]
Before that- you may want to change mindset of islamic fools already in india... remember, blasts happening once every few months in india these days...
Just let pakis be... like hamdidm said - BFD... this so called emergency a storm in a freking tea-cup... it wasn't as if pakiland was constitutional governance in last 8 years of mushy rule,or at anytime in its 60 years of miserable existence... so what's the big deal?...
For majority of pakis who live in rural areas, life hasn't changed much hundred years-they still live under thumb of the feudal overlords... emergency means nothing to them... or even to the urban pakis, who are going about their lives... except for a few lawyers who have too much time in their hands...
Let pakis be... don't encourage them to come crying to india at slightest hint of trouble...
[...if our Pakistani brothers had a change of heart AND the mindset!...]
Before that- you may want to change mindset of islamic fools already in india... remember, blasts happening once every few months in india these days...
Just let pakis be... like hamdidm said - BFD... this so called emergency a storm in a freking tea-cup... it wasn't as if pakiland was constitutional governance in last 8 years of mushy rule,or at anytime in its 60 years of miserable existence... so what's the big deal?...
For majority of pakis who live in rural areas, life hasn't changed much hundred years-they still live under thumb of the feudal overlords... emergency means nothing to them... or even to the urban pakis, who are going about their lives... except for a few lawyers who have too much time in their hands...
Let pakis be... don't encourage them to come crying to india at slightest hint of trouble...
#67 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 4:09:08 pm
Re: # 24
Yup! And under the "suspended constitution" too.
Plus, since pleasing Condi (and her boss, presumably) ia all that counts anyway, why not just "proclaim" BB the PM and Mush as the civilian president and save a lot of money in the process.
Yup! And under the "suspended constitution" too.
Plus, since pleasing Condi (and her boss, presumably) ia all that counts anyway, why not just "proclaim" BB the PM and Mush as the civilian president and save a lot of money in the process.
#66 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 4:01:47 pm
Re: # 1
Who is stopping these two gentlement from moving to India? I am even willing to chip in some change towards road expenses.
Who is stopping these two gentlement from moving to India? I am even willing to chip in some change towards road expenses.
#65 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 3:44:50 pm
#63 Tahmed32
[Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?]
Mushy is selfless and considers that remaining in power is its own reward!
#64 Posted by Layman on November 3, 2007 3:33:40 pm
#57 borivili_express, there have been several attempts by junior officers against Musharraf. Agreed, he may be able to fill the corp commander roles with loyalists, but what about the levels below them? The entry-level jawan is presumably more in tune with his Islamic brethren. Only the officer corps is Westernised, and coming from the upper class. If enough people in the officer corps are disenchanted with Musharraf, then he will have serious trouble on his hands.
#63 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 3:24:58 pm
Dost Mittar: I see you carefully took notes on Musharraf's speech. i didnt listen to musharraf's speech, since anything he says is worth no more than anyone asking for understanding after committing a blatant crime.
The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?
The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?
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