Chowk November 3, 2007
#81 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 5:26:33 pm
Re: # 46
"The US asked Mushy to not to impose emergency even YESTERDAY!
After Mushy did so anyway, the US has denounced it.
The US has explicitly asked him to bring in democracy..."
Personally, I do not believe the US is sincere at all in what they say in this regard. They are, probably, quite satisfied with the developments. What matters to them in the bottom line is the prosecution of of their war in FATA and NWFP. They know that Mush can do it far more effectively than any democratic govt the people were going to elect.
This is just nAtack to placate the global and Pak public opinion.
"The US asked Mushy to not to impose emergency even YESTERDAY!
After Mushy did so anyway, the US has denounced it.
The US has explicitly asked him to bring in democracy..."
Personally, I do not believe the US is sincere at all in what they say in this regard. They are, probably, quite satisfied with the developments. What matters to them in the bottom line is the prosecution of of their war in FATA and NWFP. They know that Mush can do it far more effectively than any democratic govt the people were going to elect.
This is just nAtack to placate the global and Pak public opinion.
#82 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 5:26:37 pm
DM #70 and just to complete my post to you below - you got the tashkent summit all wrong too. The fact is that Bhutto was furious at Ayub Khan for agreeing to an exchange of territories. In fact the standard joke back then was that ZAB was told by one of his staff the news that "the bastard has died", and Bhutto's response was "Which one?" (i.e. Ayub of Shastri). Another common rumor was that Shastri died of happiness because Ayub gave away too much in agreeing to pre-war boundries.
#83 Posted by bjkumar on November 3, 2007 5:33:34 pm
Tauheed sahib, it is almost sacrilegious to utter the names of the ZAB and the Ayub and that whole rat-pack of Pakistani chest-puffers in the same breath which mentions the name of the Lal Bahadur Shastri!
#84 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 5:35:30 pm
Re: # 56
I think they want an Islamic govt., whether it is "parallel" or "perpendicular" is of little consequence. Despite their small number, they seem to be more clear, and motivated, about what they want. My guess is that they shall give Mush a run for his money in the coming months and years.
I do think that the least common denominator can be found in Pak pulling out of the US WOT for the sake of saving the nation. But I doubt that is how it is going to work out.
I think they want an Islamic govt., whether it is "parallel" or "perpendicular" is of little consequence. Despite their small number, they seem to be more clear, and motivated, about what they want. My guess is that they shall give Mush a run for his money in the coming months and years.
I do think that the least common denominator can be found in Pak pulling out of the US WOT for the sake of saving the nation. But I doubt that is how it is going to work out.
#85 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 5:38:10 pm
Re: # 57
"What will force them to bite the hand that feeds them?"
The whipping they will likely get in the coming months and years ... thats what.
"What will force them to bite the hand that feeds them?"
The whipping they will likely get in the coming months and years ... thats what.
#86 Posted by anil on November 3, 2007 5:40:51 pm
Re: # 63
Tahmed Sahiib:
"...The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power? ... "
Don't you think, the question most avoided in Pakistan has been - who can take the lathi away from the Army?
Those who got the lathi, they used it to destroy the institutions as vigorously as Musharraff just did, Nawaz Shariff is a case in point. Best is to let him work out with Benazir, and let her work out to send him and his army to fight in FATA, Swat, and northern territories, till their testasterone levels are down to normal and want to be civilian. White House has already announced its support to the Army, and said nothing about democracy or Benazir. If there is a deal, it will unfold.
Other question is how would next 7 days unfold, and who gets the upper hand? Benazir and Musharraff will make rapid moves. Else Benazir is all over, and Musharraff is set for 10 more years. Between the lines, it is clear that all other options have been assumed by powers to be, to lead to more unstability at the very least.
Tahmed Sahiib:
"...The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power? ... "
Don't you think, the question most avoided in Pakistan has been - who can take the lathi away from the Army?
Those who got the lathi, they used it to destroy the institutions as vigorously as Musharraff just did, Nawaz Shariff is a case in point. Best is to let him work out with Benazir, and let her work out to send him and his army to fight in FATA, Swat, and northern territories, till their testasterone levels are down to normal and want to be civilian. White House has already announced its support to the Army, and said nothing about democracy or Benazir. If there is a deal, it will unfold.
Other question is how would next 7 days unfold, and who gets the upper hand? Benazir and Musharraff will make rapid moves. Else Benazir is all over, and Musharraff is set for 10 more years. Between the lines, it is clear that all other options have been assumed by powers to be, to lead to more unstability at the very least.
#87 Posted by viqarm on November 3, 2007 5:41:17 pm
Re: # 60
"A redrawing of borders might serve useful and to cut through the farce. Let each province mature and declare independence. Some will eventually join their long-time tribal allies, leaving two or three independent lands and a more transparent political agenda".
Not a bad idea ...
"A redrawing of borders might serve useful and to cut through the farce. Let each province mature and declare independence. Some will eventually join their long-time tribal allies, leaving two or three independent lands and a more transparent political agenda".
Not a bad idea ...
#88 Posted by Naqshbandi on November 3, 2007 5:43:49 pm
tahmed!
yusuf khan aka dilip kumar would be much better than this
power-mad dictator who believes his own hype!!
actually i am a big fan of monarchy...
yusuf khan aka dilip kumar would be much better than this
power-mad dictator who believes his own hype!!
actually i am a big fan of monarchy...
#89 Posted by ISlamIslam on November 3, 2007 6:30:11 pm
Re Naqshbandi #69
[bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph).]
A couple of guys running a restaurant in Hyderabad claim to be the last descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar.
Can you imagine Hyderabad biriyani becoming the National Food of Pakistan?
That is enough to make Hamidm cry and head straight for a bottle of Macallen.
[bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph).]
A couple of guys running a restaurant in Hyderabad claim to be the last descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar.
Can you imagine Hyderabad biriyani becoming the National Food of Pakistan?
That is enough to make Hamidm cry and head straight for a bottle of Macallen.
#90 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 6:51:40 pm
bjkumar #83 Agreed for Ayub who was coup-maker while Shastri was an elected leader. So my apologies for naming the coup-maker and the elected leader Shastri in the same breath. Bhutto too was properly elected. Granted Bhutto was a wadera and Shastri was not, and granted Bhutto messed the then relatively flourishing Pakistan economy - but then, Shastri didnt do much in getting the then relatively stagnant Indian economy either (at least as far as I am aware).
#91 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 6:57:15 pm
Naqshbandi: So, it is agreed then.
Dilip Kumar for President!!
"actually i am a big fan of monarchy..."
no, please, dont ever say that again. certainly not on a day like today (Musharraf's ability to break his own record of bringing sad days for Pakistan is for the Guiness Book of Records). The only monarch deserving of appreciation is the monarch butterfly.
Dilip Kumar for President!!
"actually i am a big fan of monarchy..."
no, please, dont ever say that again. certainly not on a day like today (Musharraf's ability to break his own record of bringing sad days for Pakistan is for the Guiness Book of Records). The only monarch deserving of appreciation is the monarch butterfly.
#92 Posted by tahmed32 on November 3, 2007 7:08:54 pm
anil: you may be right and we Pakistanis may have to live another 10 years under a ruler who has made a mockery of their basic right to vote.
However, ever dictators grow old and die and their name is mud in history. As Habib Jalib wrote about Ayub:
Jo Shaks tum sey pehlay yahan takht nasheen tha
Usko bhi khuda honai peh itna hee yaqeen tha!
However, ever dictators grow old and die and their name is mud in history. As Habib Jalib wrote about Ayub:
Jo Shaks tum sey pehlay yahan takht nasheen tha
Usko bhi khuda honai peh itna hee yaqeen tha!
#93 Posted by teshah on November 3, 2007 7:10:09 pm
Re: # 3
hamidm
Do you think Hindus will usurp your toilets if you rejoin India? No dear Hamid most of the people prefer squatting in the open, especially in the villages where squatting in the lush green fields with lot of fresh air full of oxygen is really enjoyable.
In any case, India, in my view, is too vast a country, with so many diverse nationalities and cultures that it is well nigh impossible to govern it properly as a single state. At the most we can have a loose union like the European Union. SARK is perhaps a good step in this direction.
hamidm
Do you think Hindus will usurp your toilets if you rejoin India? No dear Hamid most of the people prefer squatting in the open, especially in the villages where squatting in the lush green fields with lot of fresh air full of oxygen is really enjoyable.
In any case, India, in my view, is too vast a country, with so many diverse nationalities and cultures that it is well nigh impossible to govern it properly as a single state. At the most we can have a loose union like the European Union. SARK is perhaps a good step in this direction.
#94 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2007 7:38:02 pm
Quite interesting that the same army chief did a military coup TWICE!
Let's wait for Bilal Musharraf's article titled "He again had no choice!!!"
Let's wait for Bilal Musharraf's article titled "He again had no choice!!!"
#95 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2007 8:57:03 pm
... contd #94
Oh wait a sec. I just noticed Bilal Musharraf does not have to say 'He had no choice' this time around. MQM has said it for him:
"People should understand the reasons behind the necessity of imposition of emergency"
(Altaf Hussain speaking from London)
Oh wait a sec. I just noticed Bilal Musharraf does not have to say 'He had no choice' this time around. MQM has said it for him:
"People should understand the reasons behind the necessity of imposition of emergency"
(Altaf Hussain speaking from London)
#96 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2007 9:02:55 pm
It is Martial-Law and not Emergency.
Emergency is constitutional and proclaimed by the President, but this order is issued by Musharraf in his Army Chief's capacity and not as President. Further, the order suspends the constitution in the first place so how can it be issued under it? It also gives powers to the army chief to 'amend' the constitution, so constitution of 1973 is as good as abrogated.
Terming it as 'emergency' is classic 'Mind Fcking' and an insult to intelligence of people.
This is the last nail in the coffin of status-quo. I don't think we will see Pakistan in its present form by the end of this particular episode.
Emergency is constitutional and proclaimed by the President, but this order is issued by Musharraf in his Army Chief's capacity and not as President. Further, the order suspends the constitution in the first place so how can it be issued under it? It also gives powers to the army chief to 'amend' the constitution, so constitution of 1973 is as good as abrogated.
Terming it as 'emergency' is classic 'Mind Fcking' and an insult to intelligence of people.
This is the last nail in the coffin of status-quo. I don't think we will see Pakistan in its present form by the end of this particular episode.
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