Pervez Musharraf Declares Emergency in Pakistan

A couple of comments in TimesOnLine in response to a commentary on Benazir Bhutto's return to Pakistan:

I feel sorry for Muslim religion. The practice of the religion makes you a fundamentalist.You have to follow Quran completely if you want to call yourself a muslim. Otherwise you are not a muslim. You can not just wear muslim religion on your sleeve and become a muslim for convenience.
Other religions do provide more flexibility; not that they are any better.
I wished that Pakistan maintained its earlier secular statehood and had kept a good share of hindus and christians in the country instead of becoming an Islamic state. It is bad to mix religion and State. If the Duo of Musharaff and Bhutto can re-declare secularism in their constitution and invite back hindus and christians who were original inhabitants of Pakistan, it will become a great country. Better still merge with India and give up any more dream of further Islamization.

Mlksheikh, California

Mlk Sheikh, San Jose, USA / California


Mr. Mlk Sheikh is correct.
The most practical solution for most of Pakistan's problems is re-unification with India. That would bring democracy to people of Pakistan that was long ago promised to them but never delivered by their military masters. That would bring secularism (though not perfect but much better than current zealotry and talibanization of Pakistan). That would enable impoverished masses of both India and Pakistan to achieve better living standard with reduced military expenditure. Madness like permanently putting military on Siachen glaciers (highest battlefield on earth) will be stopped. Combined military can easily tackle the militancy and bring law and order to all the lawless regions like Waziristan, etc.
Economic growth, stable and well functioning Indian democracy, secularism and education system will all be of great benefit to people.
Let's not permanently get trapped in this "Pakistan" experiment that began 60 years ago. Treat as a scientific experiment.

Salim Akhtar, Lahore, Pakistan

Bad news, though not unexpected, for all Pakistanis and their friends. If Musharraf succeeds in silencing the media, judiciary and his political opponents, the vacuum of opposition will be filled by the jihadis.

Time for joint celebration by arjun and zee.

Re: # 1

islam mian,

... we would be more than happy to re-unify with our horrible hindoo cousins if you had toilets ..... bbc is reporting that 700m, ie 7 out of 10, hindoos are squatting on the railroad tracks ...... i am sure that the situation is a little better in pakistan where maybe 5 out of 10 are squatting on the railroad tracks ..... therfore, even thought we appreciate the invitation, i think we are better off as we are .......... no deal

Re: # 2

dost-mittar,

...... i think the deal with benazir will hold - we will know more in the next 24 hours ....

..........as for the pakistani public, i just tried to do a quick poll of my friends and family but nobody seemed to be interested in this latest brouhaha because of all the weddings going on ....... this is the wedding season and musharaf's timing was impeccable ......

....... BFD!

hamidm: somehow I think this is no longer business as usual..none of the options is good. either public anger at musharraf's latest "oversmartness" to stay in power, in which case God knows how many Pakistanis will lose their lives; or else it will be Musharraf Dynasty in place, with maulvis continuing to be propped up while mainstream parties are hounded out. This is the miserable situation this man has created for Pakistan.

not surprising but regrettable. See, now Musharraf has declared emergency -read: martial law--just to stay in power as the judiciary was going to vote against him and declare his presidency null and void. That is what he means by 'interference'. It goes to show there is no such thing as a democratic dictator!

I think Musharraf acted in haste. The ideal situation would have been for elections to go forward and (hopefully) Benazir head a democratic government, and for Musharraf to give up the Army Chief post and just be the President.

He should have done a deal with the Supreme Court that would have allowed him to be President. After all, Musharraf as an elected President is better than an emergency, for everyone, including the Supreme Court judges.

Bad news wud be an understatement. As they wud say in the famous Punjabi saying:

Jhithay dhee khothee
Uthay aand khalothee....

i hope mushy got this cleared with condi rice and the pentagon. otherwise its gonna be big trouble.

How different is this Emergency from the one that Indira Gandhi declared in 1975 when the Allahabad High Court judgement went against her?

Definitely another failure of US foreign policy. Last month it was Turkey, this month it's Pakistan. What more can go wrong in this administration's final 12 months?

It's not just the ideology and world-view of the Bush administration that concerns me, it's mostly their lack of competence. We've been backing all the wrong people across the world, but we don't get much back for all the money we give these folks. If Condi Rice had been doing her job she would have pre-empted what Musharraf just did.

latest from geo:

majority of judges in pakistan have REFUSED to take an oath under the emergency law. A good sign...

rE hamidm2 33

[Re: # 1

islam mian,

... we would be more than happy to re-unify with our horrible hindoo cousins if you had toilets ..... bbc is reporting that 700m, ie 7 out of 10, hindoos are squatting on the railroad tracks ...... i am sure that the situation is a little better in pakistan where maybe 5 out of 10 are squatting on the railroad tracks ..... therfore, even thought we appreciate the invitation, i think we are better off as we are .......... no deal]

Those comments were by two Pakistanis, one in Lahore and the other in San Jose, CA.

I think the latter might have had one too many glass of the local Merlot. The fellow from Lahore must have been possessed by some djinn!

We are now laying railroad tracks to Srinagar to ensure that our Kashmiri brethren have toilet facilities too! Poor guys, they were taking their dumps in Dal Lake and it just got overfertilized and is now choked with weeds.

Re Layman #10

[How different is this Emergency from the one that Indira Gandhi declared in 1975 when the Allahabad High Court judgement went against her?]

Pakistani Muslims have b@lls. In India, even the Muslims are castrated. Fakhruddin Ahmad, then President of India, meekly signed the proclamation of Emergency.

Some justice of a high court who dared say something about the Emergency (perhaps he actually held a hearing in some related case) was transferred to the Nagaland High Court in the middle of the night...much like the previous Governor of Tamil Nadu was transferred to Nagaland when Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion got elected a couple of years ago.

Nagaland is the gulag for India's civil servants and the judiciary.

The thing to see is if elections are held on schedule. I think this Martial Law is being used to deal with all those who don't agree with Musharraf and not affecting those who do(agree with Musharraf). Its like chowk staff and chowk guidelines :).

Re: # 14

I-Slam-Islam bhai,

As an idolator I would not even think in my dreams of "re-unifying" with the Islamic state where every one is high on the Islamic drug.
Perhaps I would prefer that they kill each other than attack idolators.
Islam is Sunnat and Sunnat is like obsession of a crazed film star fan - except that here Mo replaces the film star and the item of worship is a formless moon god.
Unless and until Islam is destroyed the Pakistani muslims have no solution in hand.
Islam makes them fight and become unstable. Unless muslims takes to apostasy in a big way I do not see any solution for Pakistan to come out of the impending doom.

.... and the experiment continues .....

laddu--your wet dream of pakistanis abandoning islam is a silly hindu's fantasy that's all. it ain't happening dude. unless you somehow kill all of us--which isn't gonna happen either because even if you kill us we still win! we're in a win-win situation!

getting back to mushy--it is only merlot-munafiquoon muslims like him who are the enemy of islam by being sychophantic towards the enemies of islam. see, he doesn't care about islam he only cares about his own power. he is your best friend.

maybe pakistanis are not destined for democracy ? :-(

Re: # 4

Hamidm Sahib:

"....... BFD! "

I am in agreement with you.

Jis ki lathi uski bhains - is the rule of law in Pakistan. Governance of Pakistan and transition to democracy is more important. Musharraff indeed has guts and convictions. His overall track record will be lauded, if he were democratically elected. It will be very sad moment, if emotions take over Pakistan. Emotions will not deliver democracy. These institutions need nurturing. Western frontiers were supposed to be strategic depth, instead came few hundred miles closer to Islamabad to choke.

Musharraff (= Army) must be believed for now, if he will handover power-separation to Benazir (=PPP).

Re: # 19 I have been saying for 50 years ( from age of 10, thinking of my parents and people around me, my dauhters, wife, teachers and students who chaet and run to usa with out paying tutor etc). You said properly in nutshell. WE have spend natational life of 60 years in search of mirage of democrcy and at end you get usa inspired democratic armed forces dictectorship. I will go to sleep. Note are ready for retards , retards do not understand still difference between tensor and vector. I told them many times about point nature and invarience of tensor compared to vectors. I get these tutions and money and their brains inferior than my cats and its punishment to teach children of donkeys.). bye now will hit bed. Nots look good

Re: # 19 I have been saying for 50 years ( from age of 10, thinking of my parents and people around me, my dauhters, wife, teachers and students who chaet and run to usa with out paying tutor etc). You said properly in nutshell. WE have spend natational life of 60 years in search of mirage of democrcy and at end you get usa inspired democratic armed forces dictectorship. I will go to sleep. Note are ready for retards , retards do not understand still difference between tensor and vector. I told them many times about point nature and invarience of tensor compared to vectors. I get these tutions and money and their brains inferior than my cats and its punishment to teach children of donkeys.). bye now will hit bed. Nots look good

Re: # 19 I have been saying for 50 years ( from age of 10, thinking of my parents and people around me, my dauhters, wife, teachers and students who chaet and run to usa with out paying tutor etc). You said properly in nutshell. WE have spend natational life of 60 years in search of mirage of democrcy and at end you get usa inspired democratic armed forces dictectorship. I will go to sleep. Note are ready for retards , retards do not understand still difference between tensor and vector. I told them many times about point nature and invarience of tensor compared to vectors. I get these tutions and money and their brains inferior than my cats and its punishment to teach children of donkeys.). bye now will hit bed. Nots look good

hamidm#4:

I think that you are right and so is Jang. I watched Condi Rice and I had the impression that she is fully involved in it. I won't be surprised if BB is also part of the whole game and her going to Dubai and returning was part of a plan.

SC is out of the way and Nawaz is at a safe distance. All Musharraf has to do is to declare that he will be giving up his uniform and assuming Presidency and that the (rigged?) elections will go on. QED!

Re: # 5

tahmed,

... i think we expat pakistanis don't really understand the ground realities - there just doesn't seem to be any "public anger" at musharraf ..... maybe in swat and waziristan, but those savages don't really count and all they will achieve is shahadat - good riddance to bad rubbish!

..... the rest of the rural population doesn't count because they don't have the money to buy a bus ticket to the cities, where the action is ........ the urban population other than the jiyalas and activists are busy with the wedding season ....... maybe after the wedding season they might take notice of what is going on ....... this time around, i doubt if the black coated lawyers will be able to make much of a difference either ......the judges who don't take oath will be sent home and they will find new ones - judges are a dime a dozen .......... the political parties are a bunch of yahoos who are in total disarry and most of them are a jokers anyway ...... it is all same same ......... musharraf will cook up something and a loori langrey civilian government will be in place by march after a rigged election in january ...... enjoy !

Re: # 4 by hamidm2 on November 3, 2007 10:16:28 am

[..........as for the pakistani public, i just tried to do a quick poll of my friends and family but nobody seemed to be interested in this latest brouhaha because of all the weddings going on ....... this is the wedding season and musharaf's timing was impeccable ......]

Did you ask your family the new requirements on how many guests can be invited for the valima?

hamidm #25 I assume you conducted a quick poll and determined that there is no public anger at the emergency declaration. Even Musharraf is in no position to say where all this is headed at this stage, so let us just pray that innocent lives are not lost and that Pakistanis one day will enjoy the same rights that you and I enjoy in the US. Whether that happens by Musharraf being toppled, or more years of this Reign of the Wardi, I dont know.

As for swatis and tribals - I happen to have known some folks from there, and am pleased to inform you that they are not quite the "savages" you assume.

Hamidm Sahib:

My wish is the same. Pakistanis need 10 to 15 years of peaceful period to rebuild economy, reform education and empower Pakistani women. I think, if Pakistani army can dispatch and contain all terrorism inside Swat, FATA, and other northern territories, and separate the powers for the rest and give to the civilians that will make Pakistan peaceful for rebuilding right institutions.

Hamid Saab.. I have visited Swat a million times with my family, and calling Sawatis savages is an insult to savages. You don’t see women outside, women are forced to peek thru a 6 inch by 6 inch window (but face must not be shown) even to get groceries. I don’t know what T saab is mumbling about. These bastards there live in the 6th century BC and the sooner they are shoved in hell the better for all. They have in the last 5 weeks closed 10 girls schools there. Anyone sympathizing with them is a moron. All of Tribals do not belong in any civilized society. They need to be changed.

tahmed writes " Pakistanis one day will enjoy the same rights that you and I enjoy in the US"

Tahmed means the right to be picked up at will by the FBI and detained and charged with terrorism because he looks like what they call a "rag head", the right to given a janitorial job, to be hired last and fired first, and other such rights that he "enjoys" in the US

Musharraf's speech:

The following points were interesting for me:
- He blamed the judiciary and media for the current situation.
- He said that he has taken this action after discussions with Pakistan's foreign friends; so the US is a party to it.
- He said that the third stage of transition to democracy, namely, the election of a civilian govt will continue.
- He did not explicitly say that the elections will take place as scheduled.
- He did not say whether the ban on media will continue or not.
- He did not make any mention of the goings on in Swat and tribal areas to justify his action.

If indeed the BeeB decided to fly back to Pakistan AFTER knowing of the emergency rule, it can mean only one of two things...

Thing 1:
She has prior understanding with the Mushy and has agreed to rule UNDER him.

Thing 2:
She has no prior understanding with the Mushy and she is ONE HECK OF A COURAGEOUS LADY!

I personally tend to believe the BeeB (I can never understand why the chowkans are so hard on her.)

It is possible that her trip to UAE was to put more pressure on the Mushy to yield REAL power. But Mushy being the weasel he is, never had any intention of relinquishing the same.

Under that circumstance, it is highly courageous of her to return - more than the Sharif's short-lasting return.

I somehow get the feeling that the new BeeB is far smarter than the kathputli of a decade ago!

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bj writes "one of two things..."

the third possibility that you forgot:

3) she has guarantees from the US, and has been told that the emergency mess will be sorted out soon...

Masadi let's leave your abu little girl (your ami) out of it.

Masadi sahib, while I agree that the Parshuram should not generalize, what do you base your assertion regarding the 600 pound pachyderm on?!

Musharaff's speech seemed heartfelt. And yes, it takes chutzpah to quote Lincoln back to America (amused and sunglassed ikaaaan)

dm writes " He said that the third stage of transition to democracy, namely, the election of a civilian govt will continue."

The classic 1984 double-speak, enhance dictatorship to promote democracy, kind of like the US sloganeering continuous war for "peace".

When he said in urdu he consulted his foreign friends, that did not include the West, whom he addressed in English later on and begged for them to understand why he took this decision, even quoting Lincoln's use of emergency powers, with his hands trembling.....he has seen his end, the US is going to get rid of him very soon...

Masadi sahib, the record is clear that the US was trying to dissuade the Mushy till the last second!

Clearly, the Pakistani khakis have decided that they do not mind taking a chance at upsetting the GWB. The US is hardly in any position to extend any guarantees to the BeeB!

You need to give more credit to your own ladis (like the BeeB) when they indeed carry out acts of courage!

Re: # 29 Posted by Kulharee on November 3, 2007 12:41:26 pm

Kulharee: [Anyone sympathizing with them is a moron.] Do you realize that you just called tahmed32, a moron?

[All of Tribals do not belong in any civilized society.] Agreed. But the actual cancer has spread in to Punjab, specifically Lahore, and that is where this war should be fought. Just wait till Zeemax and Urstruly show up with their napaak fauj, etc. expletives.

[They need to be changed.] Pakistan is about to implode, and maybe that would change these illeterate masses. BTW, hamidm has reported that most Pakistanis are at some wedding party. He went to find how many are legally allowed these days at a valima party. As you know, this issue is very important to the ruling elite.

Re: # 29 Posted by Kulharee on November 3, 2007 12:41:26 pm

Kulharee: [Anyone sympathizing with them is a moron.] Do you realize that you just called tahmed32, a moron?

[All of Tribals do not belong in any civilized society.] Agreed. But the actual cancer has spread in to Punjab, specifically Lahore, and that is where this war should be fought. Just wait till Zeemax and Urstruly show up with their napaak fauj, etc. expletives.

[They need to be changed.] Pakistan is about to implode, and maybe that would change these illeterate masses. BTW, hamidm has reported that most Pakistanis are at some wedding party. He went to find how many are legally allowed these days at a valima party. As you know, this issue is very important to the ruling elite.

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Neembu, the best part of internet restriction in Pakistan will be the pleasure of not listening to Masadi’s usual bakwas. Poor guy, on top of being the dumbest bas-terd is also an a-class loser.

Bubba...yep I did. didnt I?

sheikh rashid zindabad !

.... he told us the other day on tv that this would happen ....... if you want to know what is going to happen next, stay tuned to sheikh sahib .......

...... he also had the balls to clearly state that you can either have islam or democracy as there is no room for democaracy in an islamic state ......

sheikh rashid zindabad !

bjk writes "Clearly, the Pakistani khakis have decided that they do not mind taking a chance at upsetting the GWB. The US is hardly in any position to extend any guarantees to the BeeB!"

That is where you don't get it, the US controls the "Khakis", they just want an individual out of the picture at the moment, and they are in position to use the "khakis" for that end if they so choose. The BB would never return without American guarantees, that I can guarantee you...

Masadi sahib, the US was telling Mushy for weeks NOT to impose emergency.

The US asked Mushy to not to impose emergency even YESTERDAY!

After Mushy did so anyway, the US has denounced it.

The US has explicitly asked him to bring in democracy - the Mushy has given no hint of it - not even lip service!

It is absolutely incorrect to assume that the khakis listen to the US when their own selfish interests are involved!

Re: # 42

Masadi Sahib, please refrain from these kinds of personal attacks

Kunkil,

Please refrain from referring pejoratively to tribal communities.

DM Sahib,

I believe that it is just frustration caused by prior issues. I think all Indians know that the country cannot take the next few steps towards prosperity without taking the Pkaistanis along. It is a pity that this is taking so long.

giani_240

bjk writes "It is absolutely incorrect to assume that the khakis listen to the US when their own selfish interests are involved!"

The Khakis "always" listen to the US, now and again one of their leaders develops the madness that he or she is indispensible,and it is not the institution that the US works with, that individual might act independantly to his own detriment, as we will shortly see with Musharraf, taking that and concluding that the "khakis" act independantly regardless of what the US wants is total BS.

The main issue over the declaration of emergency was not the SC decision or lack thereof, neither was it that the SC and media have conspired to ruin the economy for "personal gain"- the issue at the heart of the matter was the UNIFORM. Strip a man of uniform in the Pakistan political context and he becomes as powerful as a cockroach running around in Hamid's Islamabad bathroom. As I have been saying ever since the CJ crisis erupted, the US is quite well versed in skinning rats, they will take his uniform off either privately ( he does it on his own) or publicly (using a hellfire aimed for his a$$), the only option left (as I had said months back) for him to avoid crisis after crisis (0f the US creation using the Pak Army)and at the same time maintain power (i.e. the uniform) was to declare emergency and martial law, which would then leave the only option left for the US that of sending a hellfire homing towards his a$$. Read what I wrote several months back as you want these events unfold....

In #50 read "Read what I wrote several months back as you want these events unfold.... " as


Read what I wrote several months back as you watch these events unfold....

MiaN Hamidm2,

Mushy is an idiot to think that he can rule the country like the previous khaki dictators. The world is a lot smaller and the media of communication too diverse to control – and it does not matter how many of your fellow countrymen are sitting on train tracks – the khakis can’t do crap to stop public protests!

I would say that miaN Mushy is on his last leg now. Whatever chances he had of retaining a (small and marginalized) role for himself in the post-November setup, he has blown it. He has blown it royally! He can antagonize anybody, but antagonizing the US is absolutely foolhardy!

My bet is he is not going to last the calendar year!

I personally do not think the BeeB has an understanding with him – and that lady seems to have a lot of courage!

Regarding your fascination with the Rashid character (who, as per your affirmation – is endowed with “balls”) – here is something to consider. Please consider – Mushy may be a dictator but he has no hanky-panky-business going on the side, as far as we know! If leaders of the country kept chasing the fair maidens of the country, how will they have any time to govern?!

neembu writes "Musharaff's speech seemed heartfelt"

Not as "heartfelt" as Zia used to look, teary eyed and all...all dictators "feel from the heart" as they impose their BS on the helpless masses. When you deceive others for a living, soon a full circle is made and the end is self-deception...

#53 Masadi sahib, you are right on that score. Some of these rulers would make excellent actors/actresses.

Re: # 53

possibly. but he seems to have more credibility than benazir. none of this of course is saying much

the other thing is that mushy said that islamacists want a parallel islamic system that coexists with the federal govt. any comments?

See let me tell you one thing the important core commanders are all personally chosen by Musharraf, the Karachi Core commander spent his Eid drinking and making mery in Bali. Now the only way Mush will go is if the core commanders and kiyani say thank you very much. What will force them to bite the hand that feeds them? unlesss the army rank and file mutinies, either in the nwfp which forms a quarter of the army or in the punjab which forms 65% there will be no change.

But now is the real test for Mush can he handle the situation without a mutiny, i think he can, and this war on terror will slowly drag on and provide the cover for him from the US to stick on as well

Re: # 1 Hey IslamIslam!

Who said, "...The most practical solution for most of Pakistan's problems is re-unification with ndia.......Blah, blah, blah.."

Do you honestly believe anybody with a vee bit of intelligence -in India wants to touch Pakistan with a 100 mile long pole?. No kidding! I bet most have come to the conclusion that partition was a good thing with all these loonies running Pakistan!

Kamath

Musharraf action 'very disappointing' -- White House WASHINGTON, Nov 3 (AFP): The White House Saturday called Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency “very disappointing” and said he needs to keep a pledge to hold elections by January. “This action is very disappointing. President Musharraf needs to stand by his pledges to have free and fair elections in January and step down as Chief of Army Staff before retaking the Presidential oath of office,” said the statement from White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe. Rice says move highly regrettable: U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told CNN television on Saturday Pakistan's declaration of emergency rule was “highly regretable” and she hoped its intention was to have free and fair elections.

Borivili_Express miaN, do you know this Ali Ettefagh guy?

(From the Washington Post)

Ali Ettefagh from Tehran, Iran
(Dr. Ali Ettefagh serves as a director of Highmore Global Corporation, an investment company in emerging markets of Eastern Europe, CIS, and the Middle East.)

Why Not Dissolve Pakistan, Too?

Pakistan is not a country. It is a failed British fantasy about the fabrication of a nation-state. It has other failed and failing peers in the Middle East, all fabricated during the 20th century. It is time to seriously review all of these structures and redraw the borderlines.

Pakistan was a phrase coined for an idealistic confederation of five Muslim provinces within the old British-controlled India (Punjab, Northwest Frontier Province or Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and Baluchistan). However, these are tribal lands with distinct traditions and have very little in common. These provinces were all knocked together, on presumption of a common religion, and a “dominion” was fabricated within the Commonwealth with self-governance authority akin to independence after World War II. It was all part of the post-war fire sale of territorial control of Britain. The ill-conceived plan even set up a separate territory of East Bengal as East Pakistan, a subcontinent away, with the rough-and-ready argument of common religious beliefs and a majority Muslim population. East Pakistan eventually became independent and renamed itself Bangladesh.

Pakistan’s short 60-year history is full of coups and raw, violent tribal rivalry, peppered by jailing or executing the previous rulers. Most recently, we saw a stark and bold example of such rivalry: a returning Pakistani politician, a former prime minister, was deported from his own country.

There is no commonly accepted language among these tribes and thus the official language of Pakistan is English.

For as long as I remember, Iran’s eastern border with Pakistan has always been a hub of instability, smuggling and violent crime. Pakistan is the main transit route for opium and heroin from Afghanistan, where more than 90% of the world’s opium supply is produced. In turn, that cash flow encourages money laundering, armed banditry, murder, violence and corruption. Therefore, several conflicting layers of official structure naturally form, each operating as lawless gangs or states within a state. Drug-infested territories have a poor record of development. Power and corruption leads to uneven, Byzantine relations between groups and to opaque alliances. Meanwhile, the masses remain in poverty: according to the World Bank, that’s about a third of all Pakistanis.

In this kind of political greenhouse of a country, no new politicians or doctrines surface. I wonder why news about Pakistani politics seems to be a game of musical chairs, with familiar names and faces periodically recycled.

There are other issues to ponder, namely a nuclear arsenal, missiles, a brisk small-arms export business (about $250 million a year) and the schizophrenic dual-tracked “friendship” with the U.S., al-Qaeda and Wahhabi extremists. Pakistan’s aimless Kashmir policies are perfect examples of circular political indecision. U.N. peacekeepers have remained stationed in Kashmir for more than three decades.

Pakistan is a relic set up as a counterweight to India -- and its tendency to tilt towards the Eastern Block. I think it is high time to revisit the old composite structure of five provinces combined into one artificial country. A redrawing of borders might serve useful and to cut through the farce. Let each province mature and declare independence. Some will eventually join their long-time tribal allies, leaving two or three independent lands and a more transparent political agenda.

#58 Kamath sahib

I don't think most Indians would mind too much if our Pakistani brothers had a change of heart AND the mindset!

Do these words sound sadly familiar, or merely ironic in retrospect?

"...Accountability must take place, and bringing in competent individuals to key positions is a decision that should not be taken in haste. Time WILL reveal the sincerity of purpose of individuals in question and actions will speak louder than words to give each of us confidence. I have one request though, and I would not say this if it was not absolutely crucial at this time. Pakistanis, wherever they are abroad, need to understand that this is a very unique point in Pakistan's history. We need to make the world appreciate the context in which the much needed reforms will be undertaken."

Bilal Musharraf on chowk.com
October 14, 1999
Article name: He Had No Choice

Dost Mittar: I see you carefully took notes on Musharraf's speech. i didnt listen to musharraf's speech, since anything he says is worth no more than anyone asking for understanding after committing a blatant crime.

The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?

#57 borivili_express, there have been several attempts by junior officers against Musharraf. Agreed, he may be able to fill the corp commander roles with loyalists, but what about the levels below them? The entry-level jawan is presumably more in tune with his Islamic brethren. Only the officer corps is Westernised, and coming from the upper class. If enough people in the officer corps are disenchanted with Musharraf, then he will have serious trouble on his hands.

#63 Tahmed32

[Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?]

Mushy is selfless and considers that remaining in power is its own reward!

Re: # 1

Who is stopping these two gentlement from moving to India? I am even willing to chip in some change towards road expenses.

Re: # 24

Yup! And under the "suspended constitution" too.

Plus, since pleasing Condi (and her boss, presumably) ia all that counts anyway, why not just "proclaim" BB the PM and Mush as the civilian president and save a lot of money in the process.

BJ
[...if our Pakistani brothers had a change of heart AND the mindset!...]

Before that- you may want to change mindset of islamic fools already in india... remember, blasts happening once every few months in india these days...

Just let pakis be... like hamdidm said - BFD... this so called emergency a storm in a freking tea-cup... it wasn't as if pakiland was constitutional governance in last 8 years of mushy rule,or at anytime in its 60 years of miserable existence... so what's the big deal?...

For majority of pakis who live in rural areas, life hasn't changed much hundred years-they still live under thumb of the feudal overlords... emergency means nothing to them... or even to the urban pakis, who are going about their lives... except for a few lawyers who have too much time in their hands...

Let pakis be... don't encourage them to come crying to india at slightest hint of trouble...

bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph). then round up all the waderas, army generals, political mullahs, politicians and put them up against the wall and shoot them. after that have fair and free elections with only those allowed to stand those whose families have NEVER had anyone stand before. Then turn pakistan into a consitutional monarchy. Or, better still, find a sayyid who is also an alim and make it into a constitutional caliphate.

tahmed32#63:

"The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power?"

Because he thinks he can. He probably also believes that he is indispensable. And he still has the backing of the two of the three forces whose support is needed to govern Pakistan - Allah, Army and Amreeka.

Moreover, Ayub went because Bhutto was successful in convincing Pakistanis that Ayub lost the war against India in Tashkant that the Pakistani soldiers had won in the field. Yahya had to go because he lost the war against India. Neither of them was needed by the U.S.

#69 Naqshbandi sahib

[bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph). ]

Be careful, miaN hamidm2 will quickly disclaim his lineage to Gramps Gopinath and start bragging about his Mughal connections!

I just watched (parts of) the video of miaN Mushy's speech. It is enough to bring tears to most warm-hearted people (DM-jee does not count because by definition, anybody living in Canada is to be considered ice cold). It was a good presentation and convinced me that without the good-old miaN Mushy, there never would be or could be or could have been a Pakistan!

Like the rock of Gibraltar, he stands and blocks the way of the bearbed attackers single-handedly (and he will scratch the faces of those who say that he actually allows them cover to operate).

And from that sacred task of defending the world from the Jihadis, he will not be dissuaded - come what may! (Or June, or July,...)

In fact, he is like an adhesive - he is the real superglue of Pakistan - he holds each of the four provinces in each of his hands (and feet) and by sheer will-power and his glue-force, keeps them attached together - at considerable physical anguish and pain to himself! (Or he perhaps just needed some laxative!)

bjkumar: I am trying (as always) to look for a silver lining in the dark clouds. Here it is: even (worst case)if he manages to cling to power, Musharraf cannot stop himself from growing older and weaker with each passing day, so his time too will come. So, the worst this man can do is delay freedom to Pakistanis. Even he cannot deny it forever. :-)

Naqshbandi: Inspired by your for the return of the Mughal-e-Azam, let us altogether say:

Zaheer-ud-Din Babar for Ruthless Ruler!! Long Live Zaheer-ud-Din Babar and the Bloodthirsty Mughlya Khaandaan!! Down with Highways and Low-Income Housing, and up with the Mughliya Palaces and Monuments to their Dead Beloveds.

#73 Tahmed32

Tauheed sahib, in my opinion, the Mushy had it made. He was THIS close to a deal with the BeeB which would have allowed him a graceful way to fade away - like old soldiers are supposed to!

But the nasha of power got the better of his common sense!

As many chowkies have pointed out, the BeeB is not EVERYTHING one is looking for (except perhaps in the looks department) but at least she would be a step in the right direction!

BTW, the Mushy will grow old a lot quicker if he stopped using his khizab!

Mush Sahib,

Three suggestions (not necessarily in order)

1) Release Chaudhry Aitzaz Ahsan

2) Let Benazir continue her work

3) Watch your ......

#74 Tauheed Sahib

I believe that the Dilip Kumar is still available. I think he can fill in the Mughal role excellently - he has a proven track record!

Besides, with a last name like Kumar, there is zero possibility of his getting anything wrong or messing anything up!

DM #70 I guess "because he thinks he can" is the part of the answer. "Indispensable" would be part of the answer if you still seriously think that Musharraf really cares about Pakistan. Another part is - because he has some serious financial incentives to stay in power (keep this in mind, since these things always surface in due course).

Your answer on Ayub Khan is based on suppositions and is clearly wrong. This wont cause you to change your mind, and not to get sidetracked in the usual India-Pakistan one-upmanship, but the fact is that no one in Pakistan ever thought we lost the 1965 war. 1971 yes, but not 1965. Pakistani morale was never as high as during and after the war. The reason Ayub left was something totally different - after 10 years, people were fed up of his self-promotion and corruption of his relatives. He left because of demonstrations triggered by high price of sugar which was rumored to be caused by his confidante the Nawab of Hoti, demonstrations left several people dead, and the army refused to kill any more of its own people and the generals told him to step aside.

#77 Very well then sir.

Dilip Kumar for Mughal Emperor of Pakistan!! (definitely better than Bloodthirsty Zaheer-ud-din Babar for King).

#76 Ras: Aitezaz was truly great on TV today (just before they arrested him and also shut down the TV station). He basically said - You can arrest Aitezaz Ahsan, but every true Pakistani will become an Aitezaz Ahsan.

Re: # 46

"The US asked Mushy to not to impose emergency even YESTERDAY!

After Mushy did so anyway, the US has denounced it.

The US has explicitly asked him to bring in democracy..."

Personally, I do not believe the US is sincere at all in what they say in this regard. They are, probably, quite satisfied with the developments. What matters to them in the bottom line is the prosecution of of their war in FATA and NWFP. They know that Mush can do it far more effectively than any democratic govt the people were going to elect.

This is just nAtack to placate the global and Pak public opinion.

DM #70 and just to complete my post to you below - you got the tashkent summit all wrong too. The fact is that Bhutto was furious at Ayub Khan for agreeing to an exchange of territories. In fact the standard joke back then was that ZAB was told by one of his staff the news that "the bastard has died", and Bhutto's response was "Which one?" (i.e. Ayub of Shastri). Another common rumor was that Shastri died of happiness because Ayub gave away too much in agreeing to pre-war boundries.

Tauheed sahib, it is almost sacrilegious to utter the names of the ZAB and the Ayub and that whole rat-pack of Pakistani chest-puffers in the same breath which mentions the name of the Lal Bahadur Shastri!

Re: # 56

I think they want an Islamic govt., whether it is "parallel" or "perpendicular" is of little consequence. Despite their small number, they seem to be more clear, and motivated, about what they want. My guess is that they shall give Mush a run for his money in the coming months and years.

I do think that the least common denominator can be found in Pak pulling out of the US WOT for the sake of saving the nation. But I doubt that is how it is going to work out.

Re: # 57

"What will force them to bite the hand that feeds them?"

The whipping they will likely get in the coming months and years ... thats what.

Re: # 63

Tahmed Sahiib:

"...The question to ask is: Why is Musharraf willing to go to extremes that even Ayub Khan and Yahya did not go in order to remain in power? ... "

Don't you think, the question most avoided in Pakistan has been - who can take the lathi away from the Army?

Those who got the lathi, they used it to destroy the institutions as vigorously as Musharraff just did, Nawaz Shariff is a case in point. Best is to let him work out with Benazir, and let her work out to send him and his army to fight in FATA, Swat, and northern territories, till their testasterone levels are down to normal and want to be civilian. White House has already announced its support to the Army, and said nothing about democracy or Benazir. If there is a deal, it will unfold.

Other question is how would next 7 days unfold, and who gets the upper hand? Benazir and Musharraff will make rapid moves. Else Benazir is all over, and Musharraff is set for 10 more years. Between the lines, it is clear that all other options have been assumed by powers to be, to lead to more unstability at the very least.

Re: # 60
"A redrawing of borders might serve useful and to cut through the farce. Let each province mature and declare independence. Some will eventually join their long-time tribal allies, leaving two or three independent lands and a more transparent political agenda".

Not a bad idea ...

tahmed!

yusuf khan aka dilip kumar would be much better than this
power-mad dictator who believes his own hype!!

actually i am a big fan of monarchy...

Re Naqshbandi #69

[bring back the last surviving male descendent of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or his nearest relative) and make him into a king (or caliph).]

A couple of guys running a restaurant in Hyderabad claim to be the last descendants of Bahadur Shah Zafar.

Can you imagine Hyderabad biriyani becoming the National Food of Pakistan?

That is enough to make Hamidm cry and head straight for a bottle of Macallen.

bjkumar #83 Agreed for Ayub who was coup-maker while Shastri was an elected leader. So my apologies for naming the coup-maker and the elected leader Shastri in the same breath. Bhutto too was properly elected. Granted Bhutto was a wadera and Shastri was not, and granted Bhutto messed the then relatively flourishing Pakistan economy - but then, Shastri didnt do much in getting the then relatively stagnant Indian economy either (at least as far as I am aware).

Naqshbandi: So, it is agreed then.

Dilip Kumar for President!!

"actually i am a big fan of monarchy..."
no, please, dont ever say that again. certainly not on a day like today (Musharraf's ability to break his own record of bringing sad days for Pakistan is for the Guiness Book of Records). The only monarch deserving of appreciation is the monarch butterfly.

anil: you may be right and we Pakistanis may have to live another 10 years under a ruler who has made a mockery of their basic right to vote.

However, ever dictators grow old and die and their name is mud in history. As Habib Jalib wrote about Ayub:

Jo Shaks tum sey pehlay yahan takht nasheen tha
Usko bhi khuda honai peh itna hee yaqeen tha!

Re: # 3

hamidm

Do you think Hindus will usurp your toilets if you rejoin India? No dear Hamid most of the people prefer squatting in the open, especially in the villages where squatting in the lush green fields with lot of fresh air full of oxygen is really enjoyable.

In any case, India, in my view, is too vast a country, with so many diverse nationalities and cultures that it is well nigh impossible to govern it properly as a single state. At the most we can have a loose union like the European Union. SARK is perhaps a good step in this direction.

Quite interesting that the same army chief did a military coup TWICE!

Let's wait for Bilal Musharraf's article titled "He again had no choice!!!"

... contd #94

Oh wait a sec. I just noticed Bilal Musharraf does not have to say 'He had no choice' this time around. MQM has said it for him:

"People should understand the reasons behind the necessity of imposition of emergency"

(Altaf Hussain speaking from London)

It is Martial-Law and not Emergency.

Emergency is constitutional and proclaimed by the President, but this order is issued by Musharraf in his Army Chief's capacity and not as President. Further, the order suspends the constitution in the first place so how can it be issued under it? It also gives powers to the army chief to 'amend' the constitution, so constitution of 1973 is as good as abrogated.

Terming it as 'emergency' is classic 'Mind Fcking' and an insult to intelligence of people.

This is the last nail in the coffin of status-quo. I don't think we will see Pakistan in its present form by the end of this particular episode.

Re: # 18

"unless you somehow kill all of us--which isn't gonna happen either because even if you kill us we still win! we're in a win-win situation!"

Hi wolfy, we do not believe in killing men - we only want the cult of hatred to be removed from the heart of Pakistan.
Even now Musharaff has admitted that "Terrorism (== Islam) has entered the heart of Pakistan"
Unless and until the hatred embodied in mullah Islam is replaced by some Pir Baba cult of "munafiqoons" there is no hope for Pakistan.

Re: # 96 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2007 9:02:55 pm

[I don't think we will see Pakistan in its present form by the end of this particular episode.]

So what's gonna happen you think? Pakistan implodes? Is West Punjab waiting to join East Punjab? The actual war on terror: will it be fought in Punjab, between east and west punjabis or between the Pushtoons and the Punjabis?

#98 Posted by bubba,

So what's gonna happen you think?

Frankly, I don't know. These situations have their own dynamics and these may take any shape.

Re: # 99

The game is already set.
The fight is between the Islamists, the so called 'moderate' supporters of these Islamists in west and Pakistan and the rest of guys who love their razors and merlots.
The battle is between the resurgent cult of hatred embodied by the likes of Fazloo, Moududi, JI and the latest political wing called MMA versus the rest of the munafiqoons, kafirs and idolators.
The battle is between those who consider their Islam to be the purest and the best and those consider that the Prophet was only a charlatan and there is true knowledge and understanding of the universe beyond that stupid Bedouin's book.
The battle is indeed for the terror cult of Islam in the heart of Pakistan. The war on terror has reached the last end game in the doors of Pakistan. Once the battle is won - Iran would be the next.

me personally think this war is beyond this regime's grasp. regime is a gonner, west punjab will lose. pashtoons are not alone and small in numbers like baluchis. the two will be killer for punjabi army, plus the east punjab sikhs have already schemes to get all of punjab. unless pak army plays the shia army card against the sunni pushtoons. nobody likes pakistan disintegration, us to send centcom to control nuclear assets. hence iran gets surrounded, and all those 29 spots of iran nuclear sites are easy targets for some bombing. only spot in total control for center is the mafiasos hangout of Karachi.

#100 Posted by laddu,

Laddu Mian, have you arranged for a head donor yet? You might need one :)

#101 Posted by bubba,

And amidst all the destruction and chaos in the region, bharat will sit pretty - right?

Re: # 102

Mian , remember we idolators are merciful and instead of killing men we used smaller "Kirpan" to cut your covenant with that blood thirsty moon god.
We cut your covenant and deliver it to your haram so that the women folk rejoice out of freedom from that piece of nasty flesh that is used to impose slavery upon them.
Remember , even till date every sikh carries a kirpan that comes handy to cut that covenant.

Re: # 100 Posted by laddu on November 3, 2007 9:41:00 pm

[- Iran would be the next.] And the whole world could only imagine of what comes next. Any idea?

Re: #103 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2007 9:48:31 pm

[And amidst all the destruction and chaos in the region, bharat will sit pretty - right?] Of course not. Bharat will have her hands full trying to figure out toilets for her population.

me personally think that faith wars are here to stay for a long time, and that region is just too explosive.

Is this the beginning of the end of the (limited) US leverage over Pakistan?

As Crisis Deepens, White House Endures Diminished Power to Influence Events

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, November 4, 2007; A01

In August, a 2 a.m. phone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice helped pull Gen. Pervez Musharraf from the brink of declaring a state of emergency in Pakistan. Two days ago, Rice made a similar plea. This time, the Pakistani president was not swayed.

Musharraf's decision to suspend his nation's constitution and declare emergency rule yesterday poses a sharp setback for U.S. efforts to push Pakistan toward democracy, and it calls into question President Bush's unstinting support for Musharraf despite the general's growing unpopularity and inability to counter hard-line militants, analysts said.

The United States now finds itself with few good options and dwindling power to influence events in the nuclear-armed state, particularly because experts believe Musharraf's actions may have ensured his demise as a national leader. The Bush administration has given Pakistan $10 billion in aid since 2001 -- much of it military assistance -- and U.S. officials had warned that Congress may balk at continuing aid if emergency powers were invoked. But some analysts cautioned that if the United States is perceived as withdrawing support for Musharraf, it may increase the risk of a civil war and the shattering of Pakistan.

Rice, who called Musharraf on Friday and warned him against taking this step, said yesterday that Musharraf's actions are "highly regrettable," telling reporters traveling with her that "the United States has made clear it does not support extra-constitutional measures, because those measures would take Pakistan away from the path of democracy and civilian rule."

U.S. officials appeared taken aback by Musharraf's move but quickly shifted yesterday from expressions of dismay to resignation, insisting that any "extra-constitutional measures" be brief. There was no suggestion of immediate cuts in aid, and Rice indicated that she had told Musharraf that, even if he imposed emergency rule, he nonetheless should move quickly to elections.

The Bush administration must now start "from the premise that he's gone, whether the people chuck him out or the military chucks him out," said Xenia Dormandy, who until last year was the National Security Council's director for South Asia. "I would be very surprised if he lasts even six months."

Dormandy faulted the Bush administration for sending "mixed messages" to Musharraf in recent months, allowing him to believe he could weather the fallout from a declaration of emergency powers. She emphasized the State Department's statement yesterday that the United States stands "with the people of Pakistan in supporting a democratic process and in countering violent extremism," and noted that it did not mention support for Musharraf.

"The train is derailed and off the tracks," said Stephen P. Cohen, author of "The Idea of Pakistan." "We have to give ourselves a share of the responsibility for this. We placed all of our chips on Musharraf."

At this point, Cohen added: "I don't think there is anything we can do. We are not big players in this anymore."

Bush has long been a firm supporter of Musharraf, believing he was a "strong partner" in the fight against terrorism who put his life at risk after he dramatically switched sides and opposed the Taliban in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.

Musharraf's democratic credentials have been less than ideal for an administration that publicly champions the cause of freedom. He seized power in a bloodless coup in 1999 and has never fulfilled a pledge to give up his position as army chief while serving as president. But the administration rarely challenged him openly to support more rapid democratization.

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) said Musharraf's action requires the United States "to move from a Musharraf policy to a Pakistan policy," building "a new relationship with the Pakistani people, with more nonmilitary aid, sustained over a long period of time, so that the moderate majority in Pakistan has a chance to succeed."

Even on countering terrorism, Musharraf has proven to be a disappointment. Despit