Imran Khan at LUMS

Masadi sahib,

You are right that the US dominates institutions in Pakistan. And I hope you will agree that it happened becuase Pakistan chose to abandon the democratic, secular and inclusive agenda that its founder had set for it. And that returning to it is the only way out for the Pakistani masses.

Regards

Majumdar writes "Your conclusion obviously is that US is all powerful ..."

No, that is not my conclusion. When a peon goes against the master's wishes does that translate into an "all powerful" master? Of course not. But since the master dominates the institution of which the peon is a part and has greater power, i.e. an ability to get its will even though others oppose it, then it can counter any detraction with greater probability of success... that in short is what I mean by the "POWER" elite and not that they are omnipotent.

Majumdar writes "But if Mush stays on will you admit that you are wrong about your analysis?"

If Musharraf stays as Army chief and things proceed as usual then and only then will I have missed something important in my analysis and it will be falsified, the main issue is the uniform and who heads the power institution; staying outside of the uniform is worthless that is why going against US desires the man has declared emergency. He will be removed or he will detract the emergency and abandon the uniform, no two ways about it. Out of the two options now left for him, the removal one is more probable and you will see it happen (if it has not already occurred)...


By the way here is one of HP's responses to my old posts, maybe when in someone else's words you can understand it better:

Posted by HP Jul 4, 2007 12:18 am
Asadi,

We know it is a deadly game. Recently, I met Ahmed Faraz after a long time. He was friends with my uncle in the 70s. He said the US is after Khyber and I agree with him. It is not only Khyber but it is the expansion of the war that is now important for the US interest groups.

The US is now trying to be friends with Sunnis in Iraq and so that the US can can claim that Iranians are helping the Shias.

Baluchistan is supposed to be the staging area against Iran. Mushy on saudi prompting did not agree to that but I think he is about to surrender.
I have no sympathy with Mushy. He can go to hell.

As some one said. `I am digging a bunker in my backyard and stocking up on Hola Fruta.``
and the other one said, The US ass is handed over to them in Iraq, why they wanna repeat that elsewhere?

We live in a crazy world...

Masadi sahib,

Further to #76.

Your conclusion obviously is that US is all powerful and has made up its mind to eliminate Mush and will be able to achieve its objective shortly. But if Mush stays on will you admit that you are wrong about your analysis?

Regards

Masadi sahib,

Are you implying that if Kayani replaces Mush he will do a better job of being a peon? What exactly is a loyal peon supposed to do- create a full-scale genocide in Swat or W'stan, helicopter gunships, white phosphorus and all. Do you think Kayani or any other peon will do the above.

???

Regards

#75 Posted by masadi:

Yes, but why will the army be alienated? Also am not fully convinced about your conjecture on the dictator. Let us see how things turn up, you may well be right.

Got to go.

GT writes " do not understand why:

1. the present emergency will alienate "their occupation force"? (A sizeable section of the Pakistani elites will not be alienated. The stock market actually fell when it was rumoured that the dictator was arrested)."


The US doesn't deal with the "sizable section" of the elites all of whom have to accomodate themselves to the master institution, the Pak Army. When the DOD says it will not cut off funding, it is not voicing support for the emergency, it is voicing support for the Pak Army with which it works. The individual Musharraf has fallen out of favor due to the reasons I mentioned which Majumadar deliberately fails to understand and recognize, the institution and the leaders it produces have not.

Then he writes "2. "the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf ..." when he is well suited to do what they want him to do?"

He was, he no longer is, after his failure earlier this year in February as an envoy of the US elite. After that failure all his troubles started.

hamidm #65 if you checked with others in Pakistan in addition to the sis, you will find that no one else cancelled wedding plans either. Even the funerals took place as usual. Not to mention the sun, which rose from the east without so much as shedding a tear.

Does this mean the future of Pakistan is a self-obsessed dictator who is willing to destroy the Supreme Court and to play games with national issues like terrorism if it buys him a few more week, months, perhaps even years of illegal rule? I dont think so.

#71 Posted by masadi:

You may be right, I have no private info. I do not understand why:

1. the present emergency will alienate "their occupation force"? (A sizeable section of the Pakistani elites will not be alienated. The stock market actually fell when it was rumoured that the dictator was arrested).

2. "the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf ..." when he is well suited to do what they want him to do?

Unless, you are suggesting that there are serious rumblings within the Pakistani army. I had asked people on chowk about this sometime back. HP and Zee told me that the chances of this happening is very low.

Masadi sahib,

You are still to give us an explanation as to what USA's beef with Mush is? What is it that the next peon (I presume it wud be Kiyani) would do that Mush wouldn't do for them?

Btw do you think that the turn of events makes it all the more imperative for Pakistan to turn its back on its errant course since 1948 and return to the secular democratic and inclusive vision that MAJ (pbuh) had envisaged for Pakistan while creating it?

Regards

GT writes "2. The Pentagon (if not the entire US admin.) supports this emergency."

No, they don't support the emergency, they don't want to alienate their occupation force, the Pak Army, who does their bidding, the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf and not with the military who will eventually dispose off him, if not already done

Re: # 64
Good insight

#65 Posted by hamidm2

"... stop getting excited ..."

I fully agree with you, nothing to get excited about. I recall that most middle class Indians were quite happy with the Emergency ... trains running on time etc. It takes a long time to understand what it means to "rule oneself" as opposed to "let others rule us". Till then, of course, nothing is lost and there is no reason to get excited. So there .... now let us talk about the golf scene in Pakistan.

The aerial war on Iran will be conducted via Pakistani bases with aircraft bearing Israeli markings, and that will be the end of that

Hamid writes ".... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite ......... "

It is not that simple and I wont devalue my intellect to endorse your nonsense, so you can forget about that. Neither will I be so stupid as to ignore the power institution in Pakistan, the Pak Army in events of significance in this country and nor will I ignore the group that dominates it, the US elite. Neither will I be so ignorant as to not attribute the US that is bribing and has been sending in all kinds of dignitaries to meet independantly with power figures in this country and the strategic importance of this country to the US when I interpret events. Only damn fools would ignore all of that.

That said, the US wants Musharraf out of uniform to make way for a new military dictator come the Iran war, that (taking off his uniform) will be achieved with or without Musharraf's willing participation was my contention all along. The SC was no independant thorn in the side of the military, it was even under the CJ subservient to it, and the decision allowing Musharraf without the uniform to be president would have come from that very court, don't forget its previous decision facilitating Musharraf's election. In this context I would like to say that there is a big disconnect between the lawyer's movement and the SC including the CJ. The issue here (for this emergency) was the uniform not any SC decision, that was mere distraction, and Musharraf doesn't want to give it up but the US wants to skin him, like I said either voluntarily or in public (through a hellfire aimed for his a$$).

He went against their desires this time by declaring emergency/ martial law or at the very least, after breakdown of talks and warning shots (bombings near military headquarters) fell into the trap being set to catch the rat and dispose off him. He is now for all intents and purposes finished.

Hamid writes ".... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite ......... "

It is not that simple and I wont devalue my intellect to endorse your nonsense, so you can forget about that. Neither will I be so stupid as to ignore the power institution in Pakistan, the Pak Army in events of significance in this country and nor will I ignore the group that dominates it, the US elite. Neither will I be so ignorant as to not attribute the US that is bribing and has been sending in all kinds of dignitaries to meet independantly with power figures in this country and the strategic importance of this country to the US when I interpret events. Only damn fools would ignore all of that.

That said, the US wants Musharraf out of uniform to make way for a new military dictator come the Iran war, that (taking off his uniform) will be achieved with or without Musharraf's willing participation was my contention all along. The SC was no independant thorn in the side of the military, it was even under the CJ subservient to it, and the decision allowing Musharraf without the uniform to be president would have come from that very court, don't forget its previous decision facilitating Musharraf's election. In this context I would like to say that there is a big disconnect between the lawyer's movement and the SC including the CJ. The issue here (for this emergency) was the uniform not any SC decision, that was mere distraction, and Musharraf doesn't want to give it up but the US wants to skin him, like I said either voluntarily or in public (through a hellfire aimed for his a$$).

He went against their desires this time by declaring emergency/ martial law or at the very least, after breakdown of talks and warning shots (bombings near military headquarters) fell into the trap being set to catch the rat and dispose off him. He is now for all intents and purposes finished.