Imran Khan at LUMS

As I have suggested before,

Imran should join the PML (N) and make it PML (IN).

He has star power but no party. Having the support

of many CHOWK readers is just not enough!

Ras

hmmm...some lurker put a red flag right away on my post. truth must really hurt. :-)

#142 I said Hamid Gul was arrested, not that he "should be" arrested. And even if I had said "should be", only a total dud would think that this implies that one man alone trained an entire army of taliban. But then, like I said, you demonstrated that you were a dud years ago on chowk.

You are best off sticking to your specialty - cutting and pasting stuff from Pakistani newspapers, adding a couple of lines of your standard "paki paki" crap, and topping it of with what you think is american slang added for special affect.

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hamidm: agreed that we are mere tamash beens. But tamash beens are not expected to sit like potted plants - in fact they are the far louder in their boos and/or applause than the players themselves.

Re: # 139

tahmed,

you said, "It is the expat Pakistanis who need to make sure that while he can jail thousands of Pakistanis, musharraf cannot silence the Pakistanis."

.... i hate to tell you this, but expat pakis don't count at all - they are mere tamash beens who can only rant and rave on the internet ...... when i go to pakistan, which is at least once a year, i keep my mouth shut before someone shuts me up (i learned that from romair and masadi who suffer from chronic foot in mouth disease) ...... if you don't know the price of onions and tomatoes, you have no right to talk ....... battling musharraf is good for time-pass but, as ahmedmadani sahib would say, it is all lufangebazi ........

... now carry on and knock down that windmill !

skeptical #128 I think Pakistanis, with their actions, have already removed Musharraf's fundamental claim - i.e. that he is key part of the solution in the WOT. I was listening to C-Span, e.g., and it was pointed out that while Musharraf claims that the emergency was necessitated by terrorists, he in fact attacked civil society which is the very bulwark against terrorism.

Musharraf is now seen more like what he is - a promoter of terrorism.So, the blood shed and bones broken by lawyers and journalists have not gone in vain.

It is the expat Pakistanis who need to make sure that while he can jail thousands of Pakistanis, musharraf cannot silence the Pakistanis.

#136 arjun: did i say that Hamid Gul ALONE did this? Only a complete moron would would think that by referring to Hamid Gul as the father of the taliban I implied that no one else was involved in creating the taliban. But then..you proved yourself to be a moron years ago on chowk with your repetitive harping.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2206063,00.html

I hope this is true!!!!!!!
Lets see and find whether BB means what she is saying...

#126 Posted by tahmed32 on November 6, 2007 6:31:43 am


he would not have waited 8 years to nab the father of the taliban.


Yup prophet tahmed: Hamid Gul did the taliban thing all by himself..the paki army and security establishment was completely in the dark and had no knowledge of it.

you really are cleopatra, queen of denial..

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Re: # 133
Bhai Dash Dot, you are a funny and amusing guy!!!!

Re: # 132 skippy, as they say (or the likes of zeeminimillian, hamidm2 et al) Take_Beer and chill out .... I have stocked up with popcorn for the weekend...unfortuantely I have full day friday so will miss out on the scenes from friday lunch time....

Re: # 128
Tahmed I do think that middle class has to be more pro active than they are...
I see that the pinch is felt by them the most and yet their protest is largely drawing room talk...
I do admire lawyers and journalists, they are the one braving the brutality...
There is an apparent lack of protest on the street which is unfortunately used by the kanjar Musharraf and his cronies as endorsement of what has been done....
I think PPP as it has the street power should call for the protest, but BB is just using the situation to extract maximum advantages....

Re: # 130 "let the fools ban me, I don't give a damn........... "

Scarlet "MASADI" O'Hara thats very Gone Wind the Wind

In addition to #129, don't be surprised if the friends of tahmed among the miserable chowk staff ban me again for my post, even though they have been ignoring the posts of idiots who have been calling for my head and what not on here. They look for excuses to cut me off, because there is a huge disconnect between my ideas and theirs- they want to run Chowk as a propaganda outfit, like PTV, and all propaganda outfits are afraid of the undiluted properly contexualized truth....let the fools ban me, I don't give a damn...........

Hamid writes ".... it seems that the us elite is already rigging the elections !!"

No, they don't need to bother with the rigging, the peons do that, they just point to the one they want as Prime Minister... by the way, why are you so obsessed with so that you are mentioning me in every damn post of yours. I'm not mad at you for trying to deride my posts with nonsense, I just feel sorry for you, unlike tahmed who is a conniving hypocrite who would stab his own people in the back, you are much more forthcoming in your view, however dispicable they might be, but you are an honest man for that you are much higher in my books than that peon of the West, tahmed. Now keep on deriding me, its a pleasure to read that dimwits consider my posts outlandish...

There is this ticker on GEO TV with the clock going since the "emergency"......its ever increasing and you have a fatuos guy (shahid massod ?????????) interveiwing people....

anyway the real issue is this...its been 3 days now...and nothing much has happened...its like life as we know it, and not "not as we know it". A few protestors here and there generally people carrying on as usual....the guys who are the most agitated are the chattering classes and the lairs (that is the way the Law minister called them in the Beeb interview - I now he meant lawyers ;) ).

What are the people waiting for the friday sermons and kutbas etc.

I tell you this is all a small tea in a storm cup!

skeptical: thanks. Let us pray for the brave Pakistanis like Asma Jehangir, the Chief Justice and thousands of the finest among Pakistanis, many of whom were beaten savagely yesterday, and are in jail or locked up in their houses today.

hamimd: hamid gul is probably getting served chai and samosas in his "prison". if mush was serious about terrorism, he would not have waited 8 years to nab the father of the taliban. the taliban are musharraf's ticket to dictatorship, and he is not about to throw away the ticket that enables him to keep fooling the willingly fooled george bush and co.

romair dot dot dot#123 "not the brightest tools in the toolbox....."

you mean, "not the sharpest". if you are to use metaphors, at least get them right. and "brightest tools" makes no sense at all unless you have hammers, wrenches and screwdrivers in your toolbox that shine bright like the midday sun!!

Re: # 123

romair,

.... which batch were you in ? ...... i can probably do a full background check on you with two phone calls ......

... stop this bs before i am forced to expose you !

anil #: "Have you ever considered that Musharraff is playing very smartly...."

....i think you are greatly over-estimating the intellectual capabilities of the leadership of pakistan - both military and civilian......

.....the individuals who are now running the pakistan military were my commanding officers, when i joined...i.e. they were colonels, when i was a lieutenant.....so i know quite a few of them......and as a whole, i know the capability of their group........

rest assured, they are not the brightest tools in the toolbox.....quite the contrary....i doubt they would be able to carry out an intelligent coversation on chowk, much less in an actual debate......and, believe me, i am not exagerating.....they have very little exposure of pakistan, much less of the rest of the world....

......there are only two groups in the pakistan military, which have some highly intelligent people.....these are doctors and engineers.....however, they are support groups and never get command positions....generally, they retire early and join the civilian marketplace......

......allow me to give you the background of my batchmates, who may go on to become the heads of the their respective branches.....their profiles highlight both the good and bad of the pakistan military.....

the guy who will become a general and perhps coas someday from the army, was my roommate, and a friend.....he is the son of a very poor man (equivalent to a servant of the chowk crowd).....the army has allowed him to rise in the society, like he never could have as a civilian....hence his loyalty to the army will be total and he will, probably, have a negative opinion of rich civilians (like the chowk crowd).....and he is a pretty brave guy....the ideal profile for someone who could carry out a coup someday.....

having said that, he did not have the grades to get into any engineering or medical college in pakistan; even the lowest one......i doubt he could do an mba etc.....in essence in my age group, there are thousands of civilian pakistani professionals who are far more intelligent and competent than him, with far more exposure......however, like musharraf, he could be ruling over them someday......

....the one in the navy who is also well on his way, could not have gotten into any professional institution either......ditto for the one in the air force......

.....so one fine day, we may find these three guys, heading the army, navy and air force, sitting in a national security council, ruling over us......they are good friends, but the thought scares the hell out of me....even hamidm mian has more exposure and intellect than them......none could even come close to entering uet, lahore - hamidm mian's alma mater......

on the other hand, these guys (so far) are quite honest and patriotic and and are basically poor or middle class guys who have come up on their own merit.......they are not like us rich guys on chowk.....in their own, "patriotism," if and when (more when then if) they get power, they will destroy pakistan (even if they are well-intentioned)......

....if you want to take it further......i have three other colleagues; two of whom will probably become generals......though not chiefs of staff.....one flunked f.sc. (12th grade) three times........another never went beyond f.sc.......and the third got through b.sc (though i don't know how)......these guys are at a colonel rank and doing well......when they become generals, they will be the main advisors of the three potentinal coas's mentioned above.....telling him whether to coup or what to do in afghanistan or with usa etc......in addition, they will head huge govt. organizations, when they retire......

you are, thus, hugely, overestimating certain things and people......musharraf was a bit different, since he is from a very highly educated family and has some exposure...and is a muhajir, who are generally more sane than the rest of us.....however, not nearly as much as you think......

......more on politicians later.......they have one advantage, that within the seas of wasi zafars, there is the odd aitezaz ahsan and imran khan who have seen the world.....unforunately, the odd benazirs would be good choices, however, they are far too corrupt and self-centered to do any good.......

musharraf is (or perhaps was) a better option than the bbs and ns and qazis of the world......but only because, he is financially honest....which is why, no one is out on the streets........but rest assured, there are far far smarter people in pakistan, who would be much better.......

another silver lining in this cloud: maybe we can send gen hamid gul to guantanamo - that bigmouth is a national liability

........ look guys, i am trying to cheer you up and i assure you that if mushy does not hold elections on time i will join you in calling for his head (along with masadi's and romair's)...... promise

Re: # 117

"as for the lawyers, if they had managed to get even a third division in their inter exams they could have found gainful employment instead of being beaten on the streets ........."

.... this excludes our friend ylh and maybe half a dozen others ....... generally speaking, pakistani lawyers are rejects who couldn't get a job as a patwari ......

Re: # 116
Well said!!!!

All Musharraf had to do was to secure IOK for Pakistan.
None of this would have been an issue, he would have
remained king forever, all sins forgiven and forgotten.

Since he could not do that and is trying to do all this,
he is getting hammered.

masadi mian,

.... it seems that the us elite is already rigging the elections !!

US Ambassador Anne Patterson meets ( Updated at 1530)
ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W Patterson met with Chief Election Commissioner (CEC) Justice (Retd) Qazi Muhammad Farooq here on Tuesday.

They exchanged views about the preparations for the forthcoming general elections in Pakistan. Qazi Muhammad Farooq briefed Anne Patterson about the steps being taken to ensure free, fair and transparent elections.

The US Ambassador stressed the need that the schedule for the general elections should be announced at the earliest. Secretary Election Commission (EC) Kanwar Irshad was also present in the meeting.

tahmed mian,

...... actually i do have a dog in this fight because my entire family, except for me, still lives in pakistan and in a few years i plan to retire there .... that is why i have to be optimistic ......

..... but look, this is not the first time emergency or martial law has been imposed on the country ..... and compared to past instances, it is a mild one ... the only difference is the electronic media and the internet, which makes it possible for the unwashed masses and ignoramuses like masadi to discuss it in public ......

..... musharraf is a delusional fool who thinks that only he can bring 'real' democracy to pakistan ...... like all faujis, including our own field marshall romair, he is convinced that he knows everything and is surrounded by sycophants who continue to give him bad advice so that they can hang on to their pajeros ..... hopefully, he will step back from the brink and hold the elections on time ... if not, the only people who will gain from this confusion are the mullahs who we all want dead and buried ........

.... i still predict that we will have a hung parliament and a civilian government in january ...... if not, we have the droopy eyed egomaniac fool to blame - like all pakis, the stupid cj didn't know when to stop ..... as for the lawyers, if they had managed to get even a third division in their inter exams they could have found gainful employment instead of being beaten on the streets .........

anil: if musharraf is such a great leader, why dont you invite him to India where he can do you the favor of destroying your Supreme Court, breaking the heads of lawyers and journalists, taking billions in unaccounted military aid and in return pick up people from the streets to provide the necessary "body counts" while allowing the real terrorists a safe haven, make a mockery of your voting rights by re-electing himself every few years, bring out ghoondas on the street with guns to kill peaceful protestors, let maulvis roam free kidnapping ordinary citizens (until some foreign government pulls his ears)?

#1 "It seems that Imran Khan is the only rational voice coming out of Pakistan at the moment."

Yes davkant, he will and can the moment he stops calling for a universal jirga system in Pakistan. Otherwise, it is only good looks and better English that seperates him from that paagal former ISI man, Hamid Gul.
He spoke well at LUMS and I really want to believe in him, but then when started on his jirga thing ... sigh.

Anil,

(Fakhruddin Ali Ahmad Obliged)

Apparently the guy was completely sozzled and lying in his bathtub when the emergency decree was brought to him for signing. The guy signed without a second thought. Not much later died allegedly becuase of grief and shame at what he had done.

(jump started the job left unfinished by Jinnah.)

He is only jump starting the job left unfinished by the ZAB-Yahya duo, not MAJ (pbuh). Witness the way the kanjaroon army is falling apart in W'stan and Swat under the great Gen's watch.

Regards

Re: # 111

Tahmed Sahib:

Things are not this bad. What I do not understand, why Musharraff did not exercise President's emergency powers?

Indian, and U.S. constitutions, I know, provide for the President to acquire emergency powers that can temporarily suspend all or ant elections, legislative and judiciary acts. This includes rights of member states of the union, in case of America.

May be he is novice in this playing within the rules of democracy. Let him learn.

Indians are very good at it. They have thrown out state governments all the time, and suspended elections many times. Yet they would not do it when it was needed to throw out Modi in Gujrat.

Atleast once, even judiciary was curtailed. Fakhruddin Ali Ahmad Obliged, Indira Gandhi. Imposition of emergency is not unheard of in democracy. War powers Act empower President enormously. Executive veto over judiciary also comes through immunity, and ordenances.

I know you love your country dearly, it is not going to dogs. Your commander-in-chief and President Musharraff is playing very smartly. The world will reconize him as a world leader who triumphed over terror, and jump started the job left unfinished by Jinnah. Please no Jinnah - Gandhi on this comment. I greatly admire Gandhi.

Re: # 101

Hamidm Sahib:

Locus of power moves around top two, at most three power blocks, in almost any situation. Although, even three is a crowd, at times. This principle is quite consistent and universally applicable, in democratic, corporate or any other set up for governance.

In Pakistan's case, for now atleast, two slots are already taken, Army and America.

Allah had been drummed as a bogus joker in this pack of three till recently. Even CIA would like to leave Allah out for now.

It really is in America's strategic interest to add one more player - moderate Pakistani civilians. Benazir priced and sold herself well, as that attractive bride.

The third player, like it or not, is going to be America's choice, not Army's. Even though it is a bride for the Army.

Army had drummed up Allah (a la Zia-ul-Haq) as the third choice, this time they are not getting the chance to choose.

This role of America to get a civilian partner, is good for Pakistan to atleast on paper and in minds of few have Harvard's famous road-map to democracy.

It really is more of a concession to Bush under the gun and on the loosing side in Iraq. Your republican party, more than my favorite Hillary Clinton - needs Benazir to let republicans make any sense out of their actions of last seven years in that part (including Iraq). How else they can justify blowing several hundreds of billion dollars, and few thousand American lives. In addition, brought the U.S. dollar to all time low,, that your neighbors across the bridge can cross over and buy Detroit Lions now, with additional free U.S. dollars they get for each Loonie (sp?), what a name, really.

This is one of the few times, when Pakistan can really squeeze the best deals from the U.S. and industrialized west and their lackies in Arabia, so that you may even consider adopting Masadi and Romair.

Musharraff is doing just that. He may be incorruptible, and indeed brought technocrats to help run. Mr. 10% may increase at least 90% going into Pakistan. Every 90 cents counts. Armed forces to fight terror, is the best outsourcing beusiness Pakistan started. Not bad, whichever way one looks.

anil: #100 I have no doubt that musharraf is playing "very smartly". The problem i have is the game he is playing - i.e. destroying national institutions like the supreme court, stealing the basic rights of pakistanis (habeas corpus, the right to elect their rulers).

Canadian Muslims ask Ottawa to react to Pakistan coup

Posted: 05 Nov 2007 08:44 AM CST

The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC), a liberal Islamic group, has asked the Canadian government to cease all links and cooperation with Pakistan’s army generals until such time as they return to their barracks.

In a letter to the prime minister, the Muslim Canadian Congress said it welcomed Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier’s “rebuke” of the martial law in Pakistan, adding, “Ottawa should use all possible levers available to send a clear message to the generals in Islamabad that Canada will not cooperate with a rogue regime that tramples over the judiciary and rules the population at gun point.”

As a first step, the prime minister has been asked to “impose a ban on Pakistan army officers and their families traveling to Canada”. The letter also urges the prime minister to summon the Pakistan high commissioner in Ottawa and convey to him the dismay of Canadians who are appalled at the imposition of martial law in Pakistan. “We urge you to inform the Pakistan government that normal diplomatic relations cannot continue unless the Constitution of the Pakistan is restored, all arrested political prisoners are released, and censorship on the media is lifted.”

hamidm: as you said before, you dont have a dog in this fight. you are comfortable in the USA. has it occurred to you that the 160 million pakistanis who actually live in pakistan do have a dog in this fight? maybe it is a bit more than politics as usual as you try to make it - maulvis have become more and more in power during musharraf's rule over the past 8 years, with lal masjid maulvis actually become law givers until they crossed the line and picked up chinese women; hundreds of pakistanis have been "disappeared" by musharraf as he tries to cull favor with the west by claiming to be picking up terrorists.

so, while you are welcome to have fun watching police beat up protestors with sticks, but dont for one minute think that you are any smarter than any of those thousands of brave pakistanis fighting to save their country from this monstrous tyranny. you are merely safe and sound in the US. That is all.

....... in a couple of weeks tahmed (along with george bush and the bum on 34th st and 7th av) will be taking credit for 'convincing' mushy to get back on track ......

Re: # 105

tahmed,

.... et tu ?!! ...... man! you need to get out more often ......

....... this is a golden oportunity for imran khan to get recognized as a serious politician - he should go out there and at least get a bloody head ....

Ras: Thanks for posting. Expatriate Pakistanis who think they owe something to the country they were raised in need to assure those bravely fighting for tyranny in Pakistan that the are not alone.

Ras: Thanks for posting. Expatriate Pakistanis who think they owe something to the country they were raised in need to assure those bravely fighting for tyranny in Pakistan that the are not alone.

Re: # 102

ras mian,

...... i keep on telling you guys not to fret - this is all drama baazi ....... bb will be the pm in a couple of months if she can get enough seats (that is why pervez elahi is in a panic)

....... relax and enjoy the tamasha of lawyers being beaten up - the fools deserve it for not staying home and buying a dish so that they can see sombody else being beaten up instead ......cheap bastards!

For those interested in what is going on and missed this:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec07/pakistan_11-05.html

Re: # 100

anil mian,

..... you can gage what is happening by simply looking at the statements of some of the politicians :

bb just wants musharraf to doff his uniform and hold elections on time (which he will)

fazloo is blaming the other mullahs for resigning from the provincial assembly and bringing on the emergency - he might end up as the 'compromise' candidate for pm and make pakistan the laughing stock of the world (as if romair wasn't enough!)

the chores of gujrat are spewing venom against bb because they are worried about holding on to their rustled cattle

mqm is simply trying to hang on to karachi - they have already conceded sindh to ppp

.......... the only politicians actually protesting are those who don't have a dog to put in this fight - imran khan and the jokers of mansoora ........ nawaz sharif is still a wild card - if mushy lets him come back, he will be dancing to the organ grinder ..........

.......... sub bakwas hai ! .....or as they would say in english, BFD!

Re: # 99

Hamidm sahib:

The only difference is that I called it Musharraff's smart play - "The partnership is thus intact."

Dilwale dulhaniya le jaate hain.

Re: # 94

dulla mian,

... you got it! .... everybody is getting worked about nothing ...... all kinds of conspiracy theories are flying around when all musharraf wanted to do was remain as the president, hold a 'fair and free' election, get a hung parliament and get everyone to shut up for the next five years ..... unfortunately, foolish lawyers and the secular 'civil society' are upsetting his apple cart ..... only the jihadis are playing their expected role by huffing and puffing and blowing themselves up .......

... c'mom guys, stick with the program!

"We want Islamic law because Musharraf cannot suspend Islamic law". (Sirajudin, Taliban spokesperson)

He has a point!

Re: # 95

Tahmed Sahib:

Have you ever considered that Musharraff is playing very smartly. Consider this:
(a) He had to declare the emergency and avoid the legal judgment against him that would foreclose all options of Civilian-Army partnership.

(b) desolve current assemblies and parliaments on time.

(c) Hold free and fair elections as per the schedule.

(d) Let newly elected, elect him as the President.

The partnership is thus intact.

Cues are plenty: - Benazir leaves for Dubai, Rushes back, and she was not arrested, while others have been. His speech honestly says that alternative would be suicide for Pakistan, many will agree if his ouster creates chaos and instability. On the first working day, Bush tells him "Take My Advise", but aid will continue and praises Pakistan's cooperation in fighting terrorism. A minister and chief minister say elections will be held on schedule.

You must watch how cards are being played. Isolated move does not tell the complete story.

Thsi article abt Imran Khan as if he's the unsung politician-hero of Pakistan. Cant agree.

It's reported that he escaped house arrest in Lahore. Unless he's organising a rebelion againt Mush, this escape shows his true nature (similar to Maulana Aziz of Lal Masjid fame).

Leaders who suffered in the name of struggle became heros. We have Gandhi, Mandela and many domestic leaders who suffered long spells of arrest.

Contrary to what's thought abt Imran Khan, he's a timid fellow who ran away from house arrest (the above opinion cud change if he truly organises rebellion againt Mush; since the purpose of his escape is unknown, I wish to brand him as a coward).

dullabhatti: that sums it up. i have heard talk of a mush mansion in texas built in anticipation of his hijrat with a part of this aithyeani. but what do i know...more knowledgeable people like romair would know better.

hamdim saab,

once chaudhary Ghanimat of our village went to see mela ChiragaN in Lahore...he had heard lot about the mela so he loaned an aTheyaani from Lala Mehar Chand's shop in the village, put some rice soup on his turban and headed for Lahore.
it was his first time in Lahore and Mela chiraagaN...poor Ghaama was very impressed by the lights, dhols and the crowds. While he was walking in the mela rubbing shoulders with other melis, someone cut his pocket and stole his aTheyaani. When he was buying jalebis at the halwai's shop he found out that his pocket has been picked..he got very shocked, depressed and angry and left for his village without eating anything, buying anything or enjoying any panghooRha rides. he felt cheapted and violated.

when he was entering the village, Mullah Ghulam rasul met him first.
mullah asked him "how was the mela chaudhary ghanimat?"

Ghaama answered angrily "mela moola kaahda si, bhainchodaN sara adambar meri aTheyani luttan lai keeta si" (what mela...bhaincho whole mela was set up to rob me off my atheyaani).

so this whole Marshal law thingie by Mush is a conspiracy to rob you guys of your aTheyaani. don't pay too much heed to the lights and sounds of this Musharaffi mela.

Re: # 92 ".... there is something wrong with this picture"

Hamidm2, quick get that MS-Office-PPT going. A few quick slides and a decent presentation, and they will get the idea. The only thing missing is your input! ;-()

why are they going after asma jehangir instead dropping very small nukes on the savages in waziristan and swat

..... that's what i don't like about this whole sordid affair ... i was hopeful that once the emergency was lifted in a couple of weeks or months, there wouldn't be a single jihaid left to threaten sheep and madrassa boys ...... so why are they beating up on lallu lawyers and octagenarian professors instead of wild-eyed jihadis ???

.... there is something wrong with this picture

Reading the full text of Musharraf's address to the nation, one cannot help but sympathise with the president and give full support to him from saving Pakistan from its self destruction.

He may have violated the constitution. So what? Where is the greater good under the present circumstances? The opposition fuels fire for their own selfish gains.

The justice department is not at fault if it declares Musharraf's election unconstitutional. We must raise our hats to the Supreme Court of Pakistan. At the same time the president is not at fault to declare the state of emergency to keep the crisis under control.

One must under the present circumstances look at the broader picture for the good of the country. What Musharraf cannot do as a president with the joint responsibility of the chief of the armed forces, that any of your past elected prime ministers or the ones vying for this job can do? Has he not brought Pakistan to prosperity? Has he not elevated Pakistan to a near superpower? What are the accomplishments of your previous prime ministers and presidents? Do they not pale in comparison to what Musharraf has done for Pakistan?

So what if he continues to be the president under the current deteriorating state of affairs? Can the opposition not wait for few more months/years to grab power? What plans do they have to bring peace and prosperity to Pakistan? I am sure Musharraf will listen to them.

People of Pakistan, wake up. And remember since 1947 when you got your independence, for how many years you had real democracy in Pakistan. You have to learn to be democratic to enjoy democracy.

Laton k bhoot baton se nahih maantay.

What Musharraf did was totally right under the present circumstances. Have patience. He does not care to give up his presidency. He does care for you and your nation.

Is there any body more qualified than him to lead you under these difficult times of unrest and terrorism? Bear with him. Look at your history since your independence, and learn something from it. Don't be a lakir k fakir in interpreting the the legality of his position. See what's good for your country.

President Musharraf, my warmest regards to you. And may Allah help you in preserving peace and sanity in Pakistan, even though you may intend to violate constitution, temporarily.

May Allah bless you!

Re: # 89

....... sigh !

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The analysis in atime.com puts musharaf at the top; it sounds credible

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IK06Df02.html

Emergency Withdrawn, Constitution Restored

ISLAMABAD Nov 16, 2007. President Mr. Pervez Musharraf announced that the Mickey Mouse emergency has been withdrawn and the constitution has been restored.

The caretaker Prime Minister Mr. Amin Fahim announced that all lawyers and their tabalchis will be released immediately and those whith head wounds will be provided with free bandages by the government. However, on the request of the US Elite and the little green men from Mars, the government has refused to release the man known as Mad Masadi. "We need to protect the children", the PM said.

Emergency Withdrawn, Constitution Restored

ISLAMABAD Nov 16, 2007. President Mr. Pervez Musharraf announced that the Mickey Mouse emergency has been withdrawn and the constitution has been restored.

The caretaker Prime Minister Mr. Amin Fahim announced that all lawyers and their tabalchis will be released immediately and those whith head wounds will be provided with free bandages by the government. However, on the request of the US Elite and the little green men from Mars, the government has refused to release the man known as Mad Masadi. "We need to protect the children", the PM said.

AND

" WAQT AGAYA HAI K HUM FAISLA KARAY, ISS MULK PAY RAAJ KARAYGI TOA KHALQ-E-KHUDA KARAYGI JO TUM BHI HO AUR HUM
BHI HAI "

Totally agree with Imran Khan.

Imran Khan - the only hope for sane leadership.

Pakistan’s largest religious party Jamaat-e-Islami reported that more than 500 of its workers and supporters had been detained since Sunday, including its leader, according to senior members of the party and police.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21609019/

GO MUSHARAF!

masadi, your connection of the various dots, and your use of words makes a rather persuasive case and a great picture.

But nothing is ever closed.

There must others, in pakistan, who have also reached this conclusion, but they seem to be playing along with the theme (you just painted). Surely there must something else afoot here.

But why would the US want the Khyber? (ref #79). They can do without it.

Masadi sahib,

You are right that the US dominates institutions in Pakistan. And I hope you will agree that it happened becuase Pakistan chose to abandon the democratic, secular and inclusive agenda that its founder had set for it. And that returning to it is the only way out for the Pakistani masses.

Regards

Majumdar writes "Your conclusion obviously is that US is all powerful ..."

No, that is not my conclusion. When a peon goes against the master's wishes does that translate into an "all powerful" master? Of course not. But since the master dominates the institution of which the peon is a part and has greater power, i.e. an ability to get its will even though others oppose it, then it can counter any detraction with greater probability of success... that in short is what I mean by the "POWER" elite and not that they are omnipotent.

Majumdar writes "But if Mush stays on will you admit that you are wrong about your analysis?"

If Musharraf stays as Army chief and things proceed as usual then and only then will I have missed something important in my analysis and it will be falsified, the main issue is the uniform and who heads the power institution; staying outside of the uniform is worthless that is why going against US desires the man has declared emergency. He will be removed or he will detract the emergency and abandon the uniform, no two ways about it. Out of the two options now left for him, the removal one is more probable and you will see it happen (if it has not already occurred)...


By the way here is one of HP's responses to my old posts, maybe when in someone else's words you can understand it better:

Posted by HP Jul 4, 2007 12:18 am
Asadi,

We know it is a deadly game. Recently, I met Ahmed Faraz after a long time. He was friends with my uncle in the 70s. He said the US is after Khyber and I agree with him. It is not only Khyber but it is the expansion of the war that is now important for the US interest groups.

The US is now trying to be friends with Sunnis in Iraq and so that the US can can claim that Iranians are helping the Shias.

Baluchistan is supposed to be the staging area against Iran. Mushy on saudi prompting did not agree to that but I think he is about to surrender.
I have no sympathy with Mushy. He can go to hell.

As some one said. `I am digging a bunker in my backyard and stocking up on Hola Fruta.``
and the other one said, The US ass is handed over to them in Iraq, why they wanna repeat that elsewhere?

We live in a crazy world...

Masadi sahib,

Further to #76.

Your conclusion obviously is that US is all powerful and has made up its mind to eliminate Mush and will be able to achieve its objective shortly. But if Mush stays on will you admit that you are wrong about your analysis?

Regards

Masadi sahib,

Are you implying that if Kayani replaces Mush he will do a better job of being a peon? What exactly is a loyal peon supposed to do- create a full-scale genocide in Swat or W'stan, helicopter gunships, white phosphorus and all. Do you think Kayani or any other peon will do the above.

???

Regards

#75 Posted by masadi:

Yes, but why will the army be alienated? Also am not fully convinced about your conjecture on the dictator. Let us see how things turn up, you may well be right.

Got to go.

GT writes " do not understand why:

1. the present emergency will alienate "their occupation force"? (A sizeable section of the Pakistani elites will not be alienated. The stock market actually fell when it was rumoured that the dictator was arrested)."


The US doesn't deal with the "sizable section" of the elites all of whom have to accomodate themselves to the master institution, the Pak Army. When the DOD says it will not cut off funding, it is not voicing support for the emergency, it is voicing support for the Pak Army with which it works. The individual Musharraf has fallen out of favor due to the reasons I mentioned which Majumadar deliberately fails to understand and recognize, the institution and the leaders it produces have not.

Then he writes "2. "the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf ..." when he is well suited to do what they want him to do?"

He was, he no longer is, after his failure earlier this year in February as an envoy of the US elite. After that failure all his troubles started.

hamidm #65 if you checked with others in Pakistan in addition to the sis, you will find that no one else cancelled wedding plans either. Even the funerals took place as usual. Not to mention the sun, which rose from the east without so much as shedding a tear.

Does this mean the future of Pakistan is a self-obsessed dictator who is willing to destroy the Supreme Court and to play games with national issues like terrorism if it buys him a few more week, months, perhaps even years of illegal rule? I dont think so.

#71 Posted by masadi:

You may be right, I have no private info. I do not understand why:

1. the present emergency will alienate "their occupation force"? (A sizeable section of the Pakistani elites will not be alienated. The stock market actually fell when it was rumoured that the dictator was arrested).

2. "the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf ..." when he is well suited to do what they want him to do?

Unless, you are suggesting that there are serious rumblings within the Pakistani army. I had asked people on chowk about this sometime back. HP and Zee told me that the chances of this happening is very low.

Masadi sahib,

You are still to give us an explanation as to what USA's beef with Mush is? What is it that the next peon (I presume it wud be Kiyani) would do that Mush wouldn't do for them?

Btw do you think that the turn of events makes it all the more imperative for Pakistan to turn its back on its errant course since 1948 and return to the secular democratic and inclusive vision that MAJ (pbuh) had envisaged for Pakistan while creating it?

Regards

GT writes "2. The Pentagon (if not the entire US admin.) supports this emergency."

No, they don't support the emergency, they don't want to alienate their occupation force, the Pak Army, who does their bidding, the beef of the US power elite is with Musharraf and not with the military who will eventually dispose off him, if not already done

Re: # 64
Good insight

#65 Posted by hamidm2

"... stop getting excited ..."

I fully agree with you, nothing to get excited about. I recall that most middle class Indians were quite happy with the Emergency ... trains running on time etc. It takes a long time to understand what it means to "rule oneself" as opposed to "let others rule us". Till then, of course, nothing is lost and there is no reason to get excited. So there .... now let us talk about the golf scene in Pakistan.

The aerial war on Iran will be conducted via Pakistani bases with aircraft bearing Israeli markings, and that will be the end of that

Hamid writes ".... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite ......... "

It is not that simple and I wont devalue my intellect to endorse your nonsense, so you can forget about that. Neither will I be so stupid as to ignore the power institution in Pakistan, the Pak Army in events of significance in this country and nor will I ignore the group that dominates it, the US elite. Neither will I be so ignorant as to not attribute the US that is bribing and has been sending in all kinds of dignitaries to meet independantly with power figures in this country and the strategic importance of this country to the US when I interpret events. Only damn fools would ignore all of that.

That said, the US wants Musharraf out of uniform to make way for a new military dictator come the Iran war, that (taking off his uniform) will be achieved with or without Musharraf's willing participation was my contention all along. The SC was no independant thorn in the side of the military, it was even under the CJ subservient to it, and the decision allowing Musharraf without the uniform to be president would have come from that very court, don't forget its previous decision facilitating Musharraf's election. In this context I would like to say that there is a big disconnect between the lawyer's movement and the SC including the CJ. The issue here (for this emergency) was the uniform not any SC decision, that was mere distraction, and Musharraf doesn't want to give it up but the US wants to skin him, like I said either voluntarily or in public (through a hellfire aimed for his a$$).

He went against their desires this time by declaring emergency/ martial law or at the very least, after breakdown of talks and warning shots (bombings near military headquarters) fell into the trap being set to catch the rat and dispose off him. He is now for all intents and purposes finished.

Hamid writes ".... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite ......... "

It is not that simple and I wont devalue my intellect to endorse your nonsense, so you can forget about that. Neither will I be so stupid as to ignore the power institution in Pakistan, the Pak Army in events of significance in this country and nor will I ignore the group that dominates it, the US elite. Neither will I be so ignorant as to not attribute the US that is bribing and has been sending in all kinds of dignitaries to meet independantly with power figures in this country and the strategic importance of this country to the US when I interpret events. Only damn fools would ignore all of that.

That said, the US wants Musharraf out of uniform to make way for a new military dictator come the Iran war, that (taking off his uniform) will be achieved with or without Musharraf's willing participation was my contention all along. The SC was no independant thorn in the side of the military, it was even under the CJ subservient to it, and the decision allowing Musharraf without the uniform to be president would have come from that very court, don't forget its previous decision facilitating Musharraf's election. In this context I would like to say that there is a big disconnect between the lawyer's movement and the SC including the CJ. The issue here (for this emergency) was the uniform not any SC decision, that was mere distraction, and Musharraf doesn't want to give it up but the US wants to skin him, like I said either voluntarily or in public (through a hellfire aimed for his a$$).

He went against their desires this time by declaring emergency/ martial law or at the very least, after breakdown of talks and warning shots (bombings near military headquarters) fell into the trap being set to catch the rat and dispose off him. He is now for all intents and purposes finished.

Re: # 64

GT,

... stop getting excited ... this emergency shemergency thing is business as usual in pakistan .... nothing is going to change as i said in my post below ..... i talked to my sister and she said nobody has cancelled any weddings, the naukarani showed up for work as usual and zeetv is still on air .....

It seems that:

1. The dictator is not under house arrest.

2. The Pentagon (if not the entire US admin.) supports this emergency.

3. There won't be much opposition from the moderates.

4. Pure terror will be unleashed in swat etc., the ability of the press to report on this will be drastically curtailed.

It is true that:

(a) Lawyers. human rights activists etc. cannot lead a movent against a dictator without popular support. HOWEVER, what these guys have done, and are still doing, is extremely useful for the ongoing fight for democracy in Pakistan. Today, the fight is against the army but tomorrow it may well be against the dictatorship of the Lal Masjid Party.

(b) The fight today is between the army (US) and the militants. The army is viewing the lawyers etc. as minor irritants. Even if the press reportage on the forthcomming carnage in the tribal areas is going to be minimal, there is no certainty of the army winning the fight. Watch the stock market. If there is capital flight then be prepared to welcome the LMP into power.

Give hope of Roti Kapra Makan
Sarak Bijli & paani
not this bunch rich urban likes so feudal useless citizens





Lawyers And Judges of India And Pakistan & INDIA are oppointed convenveniently by the party in power .
BJP govt in its stint filled the judgs and defending &prosecuting lawyers with rss and VHP leaning of them.
Even now Judiciary in India is Mockery despite being so called democracy.It is just another arm perpetuating corruption opression bias & rascism

Dont They nic name Lawers as LIARS....

After all what do they do for common citizens
Do the produce any thing except verbal diarroea and reems of paper documents.A farmer and Soldier are ral citizen for the god of country these theorists should be exiled after al no one will miss them .

#61 Skeptical the cyber jehadi think if you were in this state for 60 loong yrs as Kasmiri.

Yaar right now the question in front is of different nature. Its about fundamental rights of people...I see the point you are making through the picture but here much more is at stake……
So if some fundos are destroying our rich cultural heritage, you think there is justification for Musharraf to purge judiciary, abuse human right activists and exert state brutality on lawyers…
If ordinary person due to his subsistence living is not taking to the street does that mean it is an endorsement of what is being done…..
There are certain matters which may not immediately affect our day to day living, but they are important because you never know when the contingency may arise in future. The central question is that Judiciary has been purged and with that common man has lost recourse in case his fundamental rights are usurped. Pakistan has become effectively a police state with no semblance of any justice for the people. For any one who supports this scenario and endorses Musharraf on the pretext that he is a viable option or for that matter liberalism’s pragmatic hope unfortunately does not even know what liberalism is all about. We Pakistanis are made to understand by the elite of this country that the only way of living in this country is to keep ourselves depoliticized and turn our eye blind to the question of fundamental rights. Just live our lives and pray that we do not have an encounter with law enforcement agency-because if we do, there is absolutely no hope for our survival. The recourse is no longer there. And you are actually relishing that judiciary has been purged, calling lawyers names and flaunting lack of common man’s protest as evidence that what ever has happened has happened for the best!!!

getting excited over nothing

..... i don't know what everyone is getting excited about and pissing in their pants ..... this is what will happen:

..... by the end of this week the new supreme court will rule that musharraf's election is okay

..... on november 14, muisharraf will announce that he is doffing his uniform and is now the presdent in mufti

......on nov 15, the assembles will be dissolved and musharraf will announce the new interim government with makhdoom amin fahim as the interim prime minister

...... elections will be held in january and will result in a hung parliament

...... all sorts of horse-trading will follow, a lot of money will exchange hands, fortunes will be made and benazir or maulana fazloo will end up as the prime minister; the chaudaris will continue their raj in punjab and the mqm will continue their reign in karachi; ppp will rule in sindh and everyone will share the spoils in nwfp and baluchistan

..... abdul paki will continue to get screwed

.... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite .........

getting excited over nothing

..... i don't know what everyone is getting excited about and pissing in their pants ..... this is what will happen:

..... by the end of this week the new supreme court will rule that musharraf's election is okay

..... on november 14, muisharraf will announce that he is doffing his uniform and is now the presdent in mufti

......on nov 15, the assembles will be dissolved and musharraf will announce the new interim government with makhdoom amin fahim as the interim prime minister

...... elections will be held in january and will result in a hung parliament

...... all sorts of horse-trading will follow, a lot of money will exchange hands, fortunes will be made and benaziror maulana fazloo will end up as the prime minister; the chaudaris will continue their raj in punjab and the mqm will continue their reign in karachi; ppp will rule in sindh and everyone will share the spoils in nwfp and baluchistan

..... abdul paki will continue to get screwed

.... masadi will say this was a all planned by the american elite .........

http://www.valleyswat.net/tourism/images/cont/Janabad_Buddha.jpg

pic is here......

the link for some reason the " /" got turned to "\" turn them around

Re: # 56
kindly send the pic again or send the link

skeptical, do you think we will see these again......

tell you what thought Skeptical, this news artciel from the Daily Times is even more funny

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\115\story_5-11- 2007_pg3_6


esp when you see your fellow human beings destroying their culture heritage and legacy!

you are welcome skeptical.

There are plenty of serious people with lots of clarity thatyou can see right through them and find out what they had the prev night.....


They do say, "Clarity is best viewed from the inside of a claret bottle"

Re: # 43

Bhai Dash Dot, you are really funny!!!!! I think in this time of national depression, we need people like you. Your amazing humour is furhter reinforced by even more amazing lack of clarity...
Bravo!!!!

l0ok at Emergency of Indira Gandhi Look At Dismissal of Govt in Jharkand by Congress judges and latest preveting opposition in Kasrnataka to rule dspite having majority MLAS .You r no worse than India if not better in democracy

Here is one of my posts from back in July, though there were others much before this one

#980 Posted by masadi on July 20, 2007 10:16:15 am

I had predicted long before today's decision restoring the CJ to his office, that this crisis, manufactured by the Americans, using the Pakistan Army in order to punish Musharraf, will lead to its logical end, i.e. a decision against Musharraf. The fools among the people will say that this is a historic moment for Pakistan, something is changing and the Army is losing its authority. Wrong answer, and utopian dreams. The Army is still in charge, Musharraf is losing authority (two different things), because he has lost American support (the main difference between the two).

Don't interpret me wrong. I am not for Musharraf, the sob will get what he deserves soon but these adjustments by the Americans only harm Pakistan and Pakistanis and do not benefit it. The same judiciary that has before always legitimized military rule in Pakistan, cannot change overnight because a CJ took some meds that enhanced the size of his b****. No that is not the case, without military backing this crisis wasn't possible, without military backing this decision was not possible. Now the poor bas**** Musharraf, like I said earlier is running helter skelter like a trapped mouse, one crisis after another. America is leaving no options open for him except for his resignation and a quick sub lease of the Mian's summer home in Saudi Arabia, or a hellfire, with the finger prints of a Mullah, aimed right for his a$$. He knows it, he is scared but he is also stupid, he thinks that somehow he will manage to escape from it all, keep the uniform and keep the presidency and redevelop his relationship with the Americans.....wont happen...


http://www.chowk.com/interacts/12131/1/0/a

p.s to this tahmed the peon of the West added that I should do my job and go and fetch samosas for the faculty at government college...

Over time peons develop the illusion that they are indispensible and independant, the US doesn't deal with such peons, it replaces them with new ones. In this case it has to do with the upcoming Iran war and Musharraf didn't deliver, the new chief will after a brief "democracy" period.

Masadi sahib,

If Mushy is just the peon of the West and doing their bidding why does it want to replace him (as you are trying to suggest)? Why go through all the pain of replacing him when the next guy will just be tweedledum to tweedledee?

Regards

Those reading this from Pakistan, you can hear some of NPR's coverage and their hourly news broadcasts at npr.org

tahmed writes "the "surrenders" in swat are said to have been in fact soldiers refusing to fight their own people"

There is a disconnect between the soldiers and officers of the Pak Army and a further disconnect between the lower rank officers and the senior leadership. The soldiers do not decide affairs and don't have the authority to put Musharraf under house arrest. The top leadership firmly in the pockets of the US elite i.e. it is a US occupation force, reflects US desires against the desire of their peon out of favor, i.e. Musharraf. If the rumor about his house arrest is true, and I have reason to believe it is, then the US occupation force has acted keeping in view what the US elite desire and have desired ever since the cycle of crisis erupted for Musharraf, to take his uniform off and thereby castrate him for all real power intents and purposes. Kayani and not the rank and file of the military have acted, but the peon of the West, tahmed will deliberately try to mask the hierarchy of influence under which this military acts. He will similarly try to mask the fact that the US built up Musharraf and strengthened him at the expense of the Pakistani people and now due to ulterior, external motive want to get rid of him and he like a captive donkey who thinks he is still free but is tied down, wants to stay in the position of power. The people in this entire equation are mere spectators, though the unintended consequences of this game, like the lawyer's movement was a positive development that will bite the US elite and their lackeys in their butts for a long time to come, as will the fallout from this "emergency".

Re: # 44

tahmed32, I agree it looks as if, the game is up for Musharraf....this just appeared on thebeeb website

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7078656.stm

the ground is and has been prepared....

BiBi is flying in to Islamabad and being readied for the coronation.

I do not think she has it in her to deliver the goods. Pakistan has to wait for the next generation of leaders. The current crop have seen way too much to be of any use.

Published by the Guardina UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2205390,00.html

"Mr Aziz said the former cricketer Imran Khan and