The Empire Strikes Again in Pakistan

#157 -

I agree with you that most of the discussion here on Chowk goes far far off topic and it is a reflection of the way our society generally functions...which is why we are on the verge of being a failed state.

I have to disagree with you on one thing, which is giving Jinnah that much importance that we all have to stick to what HE wanted for Pakistan. What is he? God? I give Jinnah no particular importance and see him as just another individual in our history, who was great, yes, but no more worthy of being the sole determinant of our lives than anyone else. I believe that it is quite clear that Pakistan was formed as a Muslim country, by Muslims and we have become a bunch of stupid hypocrites by bringing this whole BS about western style democracy and secularism. We fail to understand the identity of Pakistan is as a Muslim, not a Gora mimicking "Western Secular Democracy" whatever that BS is supposed to really mean.

One of the greatest problems our country faces is the same that most nations throughout history have faced. The elite is nothing like the rest of the nation and they are totally insincere, self-righteous and monopolize the state and its resources. What Pakistan needs is for those dumb Islamic parties to get overthrown by more educated and sincere Muslims who should then lead the drive to take Pakistan where it should have been going over the last 60 years; a role model of an Islamic State. Just like Israel which was formed on the basis of religion, we must recognize that we are a Muslim state and offer citizenship/immigration to all Muslims of the world regardless of their race or language. What Malaysia is today is what Pakistan was meant to be 30 years ago and we could have been much much more by now.

I however doubt that this will be allowed to happen both by the enemies within (the Pakistani "elite") who wish to tyrannize the public with their fanatic Ataturk-ish secular demagoguery/"democracy". The enemies outside are of course, the Americans whose definition of democracy excludes the possibility of the public of another country which it has nothing to do with being allowed to express its Islamic identity. Tyranny of Secularism.

There are no variations of the basic gripe or grouse or cribbing or diatribe or balderdash or humbug or ........!!
Can someone talk the cause and walk the remedy?
From what I can discern in the multitude of cursing or polemic in the many write-ups on this forum [chowk.com], there seems to be a total lack of clarity on WHAT is wrong and WHAT needs to be done: how about starting from the premise that we require a total re-evaluation of the concept that 'parliamentary democracy' is what the doctor ordered for Pakistan? How about giving a shot at understanding what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan?
Can we suggest Chowk Editors to invite comments / views from: Janab Sharif al Mujahid , Dr. Parvez Hoodbhoy, Janab Qazi Faez al Issa, Prof Anwar Syed [his write-up, "Dealing with an emergency", DAWN, 11th November 2007, is a sort of sequel to a long list of revealing/suggestive political frame-work for Pakistan], and many other apolitical commentators.

OK replace learn with earn!!!!

Re: # 154
Skeptical those names of BB and NS were mentioned in response to the querry posed by tahmed32 re: 153. As for democracy I used the word "earned" not "learned".

Re: # 153
Once again similar NS and BB stuff.....
And let me assure you democracy does not fall from the sky....
Have I ever claimed that....
Be fair my friend....
I may be far more Skeptic than you..
You are merely targeting contradictions in individuals....
BB has no right ...
NS has no right...
corrupt blah blah....
Ok if democracy has to be learned do you learn it through purging judiciary and stall growth of institutions....
What makes you think I am pro NS and BB
in the first place.....

Re: # 151
Sure Odd Job would love to have a go at 007 once more :)
As to your other querry, yes BB and NS were bigger disasters in every possible way, they were calamitous...since the public's memory is so short, some might even remember NS's own blatant attack on the supreme court itself in his own bid to gain absolute power, (and how everyone rejoiced to see the back of that inept and corrupt dictator!)...and between the two of them BB and Mr 10% and NS they totally emptied the public's exchequer. You may or may not remember that during the tenures of our own Paki versions of Bonnie and Clyde and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (the famous outlaws of the west), the foreign exchange reserves had dwindled down to a mere few hundred thousand bucks...this is shameful...now they are above 15 billion and economy is the thing that will run the motor of a nation...of course Mushy has committed errors in handling matters in the frontier but lets hope these matters are eventually amicably sorted out...but then don't we all know who created all these Frankenstein monsters for us all? If the parties vying for democracy are themselves undemocratic they have no right to fight for democracy, because they must first purge the corrupt and inept from their midst and present clean new faces to the electorate, because presenting the same failed corrupt people, and their offspring as kings and queens is not democracy. Democracy has to be earned it will not fall from the sky on a platter for us like skeptical thinks.

tahmed32....we see you are very sincere and dedicated to the cause. Please let us know how the rally in Pindi was today and what other protest events you will be participating in.

skeptical #148 thanks. I am sure Goldfinger will see this - otherwise we will send Special Agent 007 to convince him. ;-)

#149 Were BB and NS bigger disasters than Mush? I dont think so. Terrorism did not grow by leaps and bounds under them as it did under Mush. They were removed from power, while Mush has made his unhealthy presence for 8 years and wants to stay around until God himself intervenes by making him grow old and die, as we all will do - even dictators clinging to power.

And remember that even in the 90's the military refused to do its job.

Re: # 146

So who will it be then that will not nurture one man absolute rule? Absolute misrules and not democracy ofcourse of individuals already named by tahmed32, have already been tested out a few times, which were utter disasters. So what now?

Re: # 147
I think you have made it pretty simple for people like him to understand...
Though still I do not think they will understand and even want to understand...

Goldfinger: These "wonderful institutions" will come when the "wonderful institution" ruling the country right now, i.e. the Pakistan Military, goes back doing what a national army is paid to do - i.e. is defend the nation, not take over.

No matter what the failings of BB, NS, even the mullahs - the fact is that democracy is geared to take account of human weaknesses through checks and balances to individual power. And the fact is that BB and NS in particular represent the only real political leadership in calling for the Pakistan Military officers to start doing what they are paid to do - defend the Constitution, not destroy it.

Re: # 145
certainly not by purging judiciary and strenghtening one man absolute rule!!!!

Re: # 144

So where are these wonderful institutions to come from if discussing the individuals who are supposed to nurture and people them is taboo? Fall from the sky like manna?

Re: # 143
again the same answer based upon individual expereinces...The same Bhutto, NS, BB stuff
See my post with open eyes....
I will not add anything further.....

When were we not living in a police state? Bhutto was the worst megalomaniac who helped dismember Pakistan besides committing other crookeries. Similarly the current crop of politicians are all self serving crooks of the first order. By only debarring the tested criminals and bringing in a fresh crop of faces who have some sympathy for the country and its hapless people can we hope to earn some redemption. In which civilised society of the world crooks are elected again and again to the highest office? And it is total folly to expect self serving crooks and petty thieves to come up and build yout institutions for you.

Re: # 141

thanks for the compliment, I think we all need to unite and condemn the current situation. Lack of vocal protest is being interpreted as endorsement by the cronies of this fascist regime. Its not democracy but the entire system of checks and balances which is at stake.

Ref: # 136
Ditto. I could not have put it better than that.

Ref: # 137
Sorry I did get my numbers worng. This was meant for Goldfinger. His shallow argument has been countered very well by Skeptical.

To hell with 'election' -- Musharraf will not have peace untill and unless he reinstates the Supreme Court judges.

This whole charade of emergency was aimed at nobody else except at the Supremem Court.

One reinstatement was not enough of a lesson. This time Musharraf has bitten more than he can chew -- and he will choke to death on it. Pakistan is not Myanmar.

Re: # 136
So your solution about "disruptive" institutions like Judiciary (which by the way has always always been subject to executive apart for perhaps a few months when it showed signs of coming out of its control) should be razed to the core!!!
And rebuilding be done by an all powerful military strongman. Mr Goldfinger, what makes you think that this is rebuilding in the first place? It is the return to orginal state of affairs. Secondly the whole emergency was implemented to purge judiciary so that Musharraf can have his way completely. So what makes you think that this so called "rebuilding" will be for the country's betterment and not for removal of effective checks and balances. I keep on hearing similar crap about Musharraf being a better option than BB and NS blah blah...
Those two also created problems because they tried to concentrate too much powers in their hands and Musharraf is doing the same in a manner which is far more brutal and will have disastrous long term effects on your institutions. Mind you even if his intentions are "noble", one day your favourite stable and benevolent dictator will die or will have to leave. However even if he dies he would have left a precendent and a legacy of a weak and subservient judiiary which will then be abused for the next and not so benevolent dictator. Too much power in one individual has a tendency to be abused and abusers and their apologetics have a tendency to call it "stability" and essential to prevent anarchy.
So do you want a police state where one day you can be abducted by agencies and you do not have any any recourse to law!!! Perhaps then you will understand what this "stability" is all about...

Borivilli mian,

(we will never mass rape and mutilate women and children)

Have you forgotten the mass rape and murders in Dhaka in 1970-71, oh I forgot they were bhooka bangalis not true Momins.

By the way what about the white phosphorusinng of 3,000 schoolkids in Lal Masjid?

Regards

#135 blithe writes "#127
I do not get your point. Are you condoning the dismantling of the judiciary in Pakistan?"

You got your numbers wrong. I don't support the thug Musharraf or what he is doing, Goldfinger and Zyxius the petty thugs, do, ask them...

#133 Zyxius writes "Masadi...question..yes or no... Are you a Bibi Chamcha? I know of a Masadi who is both a Bibi chamcha and an MQM thug. Are you from the same family?"

Zyxius a question for you, yes or no, are you a sob? My ideas on the BB are clearly known to people here when I had the ZAB/MAJ debate with the other thug, Manto on here. I have no connections with any political party let alone the MQM, I would be out of place ethnically were I to join that party, in other words I would not be welcome....does that answer your question?

If you are addressing me, actually yes...every corrupt and corroded institution needs to be plucked from its very roots and replanted so it can grow in unison with the people and the nation. If an institution exists just merely as a tool of disruption in the smooth running of affairs of any sort, and is otherwise inept and corrupt to the core, what should be done to it? There has to be just one person or institution which is more viable than the others to be able to do it otherwise total mayhem will ensue.

#127
I do not get your point. Are you condoning the dismantling of the judiciary in Pakistan? Are you condoning the break up of all institutions apart form the army and its affiliate organisations? You do not seem to believe in the check and balance of competing instituions. Someone of your background may think that Musharraf is a benevelonent dictator but he is creating a system that will promote a line of dicatatorships after he is gone. Civil society will have to work extra hard to undo the mess this most unpatriotic DICTATOR has done to the country. Think before you write on this channel.

Re: # 132

Since you are so bright and every one else a moron, what do you think ought to be done? You just seem to be speaking in convolutions and have no proposals.

Masadi...question..yes or no... Are you a Bibi Chamcha? I know of a Masadi who is both a Bibi chamcha and an MQM thug. Are you from the same family?

You keep speaking of social structure and everyone else being a moron...so I guess you must be at the top of that social structure. Please tell us morons what you mean and who you are talking about as being the leader of our democracy? Please dont tell me its Bibi. She probably would have been standing at a street corner at Hira mandi if she weren't born in Zulfi's home. She's now just a high class version of the same thing.

#131, unlike you, I am actually "on the ground" in Pakistan, and know quite clearly what is going on- and of course the worst democracy is still better than the best dictatorship because dictatorship will ensure that the best democracy you will ever be able to manage will be of the worst kind, but morons will not understand this because they don't have a clue about social structure, for them individuals are free to act as they please and dictators choose to be good and politicians bad, wasting time with such people is itself ignorance so I will refrain from doing so....

Re: # 127
Actually it is very easy to just sit there and try to shoot everything down through the air and say this that or the other, however ground realities are quite different and its not as easy at it seems to you....I too say that democracy is the best path for us, but democracy, mind you not the horrible corrupt dictatorial theivery that passes off for democracy, which the corrupt press and the stupid serfs would again wish to hoist upon us, and please none of that BS about the worst democracy being better than the best dictatorship etc

Re: # 128

Goldfinger,

I have no issues with you. If it helps i too don't give a f about god (of any religion).
you advice is well taken, but sometimes you have to talk at the level of the person you are interacting with, in this case bosdhika_exp.

Zyxius writes "He should have left Mushy's democracy agenda alone and let Phase 3 take place."

What a damn joke, phase 3, the guy gets rid of an elected government under the barrel of the gun, establishes his kingship, cannot tolerate the pillars of the state to operate independantly and then has the audacity to talk about "democracy"- the worst form of double speak that would put "1984" to shame, dictatorship for the cause of democracy; maybe Cheney with his "war for peace" coached the bas****.

Re: # 119

My good friend Netizen I will heed your advice and refrain from wasting time with you further...however I just merely wish to tell you that you can not rouse my passions by spewing invectives against peoples religions for I believe in no religion whatsoever, as I neither bow five times a day on the ground nor do I drink a cup of urine daily or shower with it, however by being abusive towards a faith that so many people in the world believe in you really are giving people a glimpse into your dark and ugly soul.

Goldfinger writes "Enlightened Masadi you speak of ideal times and ideal situations"

No I do not speak of ideal times and situations, I speak of ways to get there and the path to ideal times is not thorugh a dictator who has lost his mind and is at the helm of an institution that regardless of the character it throws up at the command post will do the same. I speak of what is and the what is tells us that more of the same BS will beget more of the same. You don't want to understand that becauae not only are you a political illiterate where it comes to Pakistani affairs, you have no clue about how societies work. Coming from that area of ignorance you and your other dumb friend Zyxius will look at persons and pin their hopes on the next one that might come along like Bush versus Clinton, not knowing that the nexus of institutions that throws up garbage like Bush and Clinton will continue with the very same policies come what may. When the Imperialists wanted the pak army to raise the slogan of Jihad during the Zia era, it did, not when it asked it to raise the slogan of "moderation" it is doing so, it is neither enlightened nor is it moderate and any damn fool would do a better job than the sob you are defending, the very vast majority of Pakistanis has gone to hell during his very tenure and like I said the corruption of an institution that pervades the entire society and has helped destroy it is much greater than the corruption of any one individual. When you'll understand that you understand how both this and the US society operates, until then you're just a moron .

Enlightened Masadi you speak of ideal times and ideal situations. At hand these are not. We are now passing through some of the most trying times of our existence. Its just too late to say what should or should not have been, however in a way all of our institutioins and organizations are so shot that indeed we need to grub them all and start anew. And yes the military needs to be out of everything, however now when even our very existence is under threat and the situation is dire, you do have to look at individuals and balance them against each other, not institutions. And after you do so, and despite some of the horrendous errors of judgement he has made and might still make in the future Mushy still seems a better alternative than any of our other viable but treacherous and multi-faced options available to us. Some of those, under real democratic norms, would long ago have been abolished and institutionalised by their own parties as thugs of the first order. The post by Zyxius was spot on!

All bhai/behens, hindoo macacas, ex-pat kanjars, and assorted 'civil society' walla liberaloon, motheratoons, kafiroon enlightenedoons etc. Listen up and listen good:

The Union of Islamic Caliphates of South Asia (UIC in short) is in bloom!

Zyxius#107:

A well thought-out post.

If you are an old-timer, you would know that I have generally supported Musharraff's policies. But I think that increasingly, his interests conflict with that of Pakistan, and this Emergency was there to protect himself. Hell wouldn't have broken loose if SC had decided against him and the election of the President had been invalidated. The army would still have been in firm control and the civil administration would have continued on and a new election would have taken place which would probably have even reelected Mush as the President.

The worst thing that Mush has done is created dissension in the one institution of Pakistan which was solid, modern, disciplined and above ethnic, linguistic and religious sectarian divisions, namely the army. There are now rumblings in the army, especially below the corps commanders' level. If there is a rebellion in the army, either at the senior level or, more likely, in some units posted in the insurgent area, Pakistan's survival would truly become uncertain.

Jai Bhole Naath#122:

The crazies in Michigan must be behaving these days for you to find time to cater to the needs of the crazies at chowk.:). Welcome!

I think that you are underestimating the intelligence of the US policy-makers, all of whom are not as dimwitted as their President. They not only know the difference between the Taliban (created by Pakistan) and Al Qaida (created by themselves) but also have now accepted the difference between "good" and "bad" taleban. This is why attempts are afoot by their man-in-kabul, Hamid Karzai, to make a compromise with the "good" taleban.

Zyxius,

Democrats defer with Bush on the war in Iraq.Even Bush's greatest critic, Barak Obama, has said he would be in favour of hot pusuit into FATA to hunt Al Qeeda.

In the minds of Americans, Democrats or Republicans, there is no difference between Taliban & AlQeeda. Whichever administration comes to power, will want Pakistan to hunt down "extremists". Now whether Pakistanis make a distinction is a another matter.

Mushy has shouted hoarse to differentiate between "freedom fighters", "good taliban" etc. But hasnt found many takers in the West.

What do you think the West's response would be, if Pakistan declares its not going to fight their war? If OBL is hiding in Pakistani territory, reorganising & continuing to goad the West, neutrality for Pakistan is not an option.

#120 Posted by Zyxius on November 7, 2007 6:18:03 am

Nice try but here's reality

pakis of all shades want indian kashmir really bad

the paki army promises it can get them kashmir

the paki junta is ok with strenghtening the army so it can get kashmir

it fights with india, loses and fails to win kashmir

it then blames the civilian setup for the loss and turns it's guns on the paki junta

so the reason you don't have democracy and your army is bombing your people: kashmir..

Shankar,

If you read my post, I am actually saying that I think enmity with India is ridiculous. We have no reason to be beefing up our military for India or anybody else and we should declare unilateral peace with India anyway. I am under no impression that India wants attempt anything on Pakistan, even if you do have plenty of ugly idiots like Harysh who talk a lot of crap.

Aid from the US is based on assistance in the war on terror. That includes extra-ordinary renditions, bombing civilians populations to destroy single targets causing massive "collateral damage" (how would you like calling 9/11 that?). I think that this aid comes at a very high price that no country should pay. The US has indeed become the evil empire and its good people have no idea what their leaders are doing in the name of democracy and freedom. We should ride out the GWB administration and see if the next one isn't such a fanatic born again christian. This war is extremely unpopular in the US also and Bush will likely be villified for the rest of time. Already Cheney is compared to Darth Vader by almost everyone. He is the personification of evil! I would not throw my lot in with these guys.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Zyxius,

Since 9/11, Pakistan has recieved more than $10billion from the US alone. Thats not counting the total aid you have recieved from the Europeans, Australian & Japanese. Incidentally, very few Pakistanis have thanked the West for that aid. Musy was able to improve the economy primarily because of that.

Yeah..its one thing to say "screw America; let them fight their own war". Your economy is vulnerable to sanctions.

The Pakistani military has never won a war in its glorious history. I think the Pakistani public is brainwashed & hoodwinked into believing that India wants to gobble it up.

There were no nuclear weapons in 71. Did India "gobble up" East Pakistan? Bangladesh is a soverign country...."certainly not a sattelite country".

I think you are becoming Jay's bakra. That fool has been thriving on crap since Chowk was founded.

Re: # 111

bj mian,

.... actually they have a real job to do which they have been neglecting because they have busy collecting garbage and trying to run the government ....... they are supposed to move the line of control further to the east and a little to the south - that is what we pay them for .......... hopefully, they will do their real job one day ...... the bums!

PS: Yesterday's mirchi still seems to be working...LOL!

#114 by Zyxius

Why Harysh, did the Kabulis refuse to pay you after you spread yours? You seem to be speaking from experience.

Nah Zyxius mian, you don't have to learn everything from personal experience. Fools learn from their own experience, the wise learn from others' (in this case, you).

Why Harysh, did the Kabulis refuse to pay you after you spread yours? You seem to be speaking from experience.

#112 by majumdar

They can undergo vocational training under Aunty Shamim. With all the Pathan population in Pakistan/A'stan, they will have a ready market for their services.

And if the Kabuliwallahs refuse to pay (as is their wont), they can always opt for the Canadian visa.

Beej bhaiya,

(And what will the khaki officers do? Work for a living?!)

Not a bad idea. My suggestion: They can undergo vocational training under Aunty Shamim. With all the Pathan population in Pakistan/A'stan, they will have a ready market for their services.

Regards

[abolished its army altogether]

And what will the khaki officers do? Work for a living?!

Zyxius,

Agreed that BB, NS and AH are a bad lot. But do you think politicians in India or US or Italy are any better. The only reason these guys end up doing less damage (generally) is that there are strong institutions which provide the necessary checks and balances. The solution for Pak is to move to a democratic setup and allow institutions to develop over a period of time.

Regards

I do see the contradiction and I realize how bad it is...but I really do believe that anyone else will be much worse. Bibi, if she wasn't born in Zulfi Bhutto's house would probably have been on some street corner of a red light area in Amsterdam. She is only slightly better than Altaf Hussain. All of them would do much worse. I think that the sooner Phase 3 is completed, the sooner we will be on our way to being out of this mess with more broad based say in the way our affairs are run. If it is prolonged to much, we will be plunged into civil war, and it will be a legitimate civil war. That would be the worse kind.

Zyxius,

(Mushy has made some terrible mistakes and he should be held accountable for those, but not while he is running the country and we have so many problems to take care of.)

&

(The war against our own people cannot go on. No matter how much we think they are extremists, we cannot forget that they are our own flesh and blood and we cannot declare war on them...)

Don't you see the contradiction here. Who started Pakistan's war against its own citizens, Mushy himself? In short a huge chunk of the current crisis has to be put squarely on Mushy's own shoulder. And there is no evidence that Mushy wants to redress the scenario.

Regards

I think everyone has mixed feelings about what is happening to our country. I stand by Mushy in this situation but I do have very grave concerns about so many things:

1. In the US, after GWB controversially won his first election there were threats of court battles and the situation could have gotten ugly...but they have a tradition of rallying behind the person whom is in charge. I wish we had more of this in us; even if we disagree with our leaders, we should never take democracy to mean that destabilizing the entire situation is an expression of our democratic rights....its just not right for the country. Its not easy to make another country, we should cherish what we have and protect it with our dear lives.

2. Mushy has made some terrible mistakes and he should be held accountable for those, but not while he is running the country and we have so many problems to take care of. The war against our own people cannot go on. No matter how much we think they are extremists, we cannot forget that they are our own flesh and blood and we cannot declare war on them...it will lead to civil war in Pakistan and dismemberment of the state. This is an American agenda and Mushy and all other "leaders" should steer clear of the US agenda in Pakistan.

3. Bibi seems to be even more eager than Mushy to push the American agenda. She even disgracefully said in the press that the Americans should use all leverage, including aid, to pressure Pakistan into compliance. Rather than fight for our sovereignty, Bibi is more than willing to sell us down the river to save her legacy and looted gains. I fear that Bibi will lead us to civil war through the US agenda in Pakistan.

4. The Americans seem hell-bent on destroying Pakistan from within. Iraq and Iran still require and outside force to invade and destroy. In Pakistan they have found that internal fractures don't require them to even set foot on the ground; they are having us fight one another. The recent batch of soldiers sent to SWAT was screen to ensure no pashtuns were included. How can we start discriminating amongst ourselves like this?

5. The judiciary should always remain independent and the Chief Justice did many great things. However, he should not have gone in the same current as the opposition which sought to destabilize the country. In this, he committed a grave offense against the country. In all democracies, national interest is weighed heavily against idealistic concerns of the legal community and often national security prevails. In the west, specially the US and UK, you have countless examples in recent years. Why did the CJ not give a damn about destabilizing the entire country? He should have left Mushy's democracy agenda alone and let Phase 3 take place. Idealism fails to realize that stability, not democracy, is what we need. We cannot have democracy because we dont have enough free people to vote. Feudalism and Feudals must be eliminated before true democracy can happen in Pakistan.

6. The media has been absolutely disgraceful. They simply thrive on controversy and negativity. I have not seen anything positive about everything good that has happened in Pakistan in the last 8 years. And if they do show something positive, they will never credit the government for it. People like Ayesha Tammy Haq simply have no sincerity for the country and are out there for photo ops. Where the hell were they during Bibi or Nawaz's terms? They know that Mushy will not lock them up for their behavior on TV so they take unfair advantage and openly display a disgraceful bias without any information that balances their disinformation. Just pick up Dawn and you have Mr Social Elite's (Hameed Haroon with his british accent) newspaper demonstrating its impeccable "Civil Society" credentials by ensuring that nothing positive is allowed to make it to the front page. No sir, criticism of the government is a sign of enlightenment amongst the GT magazine crowd and they love to show how pro-democracy they are and how much they represent the forces of moderation in Pakistan. Do the really represent anyone in Pakistan except themselves? The point is that the media has been a disgrace and should have been more responsible and people like Hameed Haroon should finally stop taking their monthly stipends from the CIA and show some loyalty to the country of their forefathers. Western media does criticize, but it does not cross and break every boundary as does Pakistani media. New freedom has been totally abused and I am glad that some rules will be put back in place.

7. The war on terror is a war not only on Islam, but all muslim countries one by one. We should steer clear of it and tell the Americans and their Zionist masters to go Screw their themselves. Enlightened moderation is bullshit. Please stop trying to come up with a new Deen-e-Ilahi and stick to your job as the leader of the country, not the faith. Meddling in this will get you killed and there will be no sympathy for you in any quarter except the sellout GT magazine crowd and bastard/prostitute infested "Civil Society".

8. The army really should get the hell out of everything. In fact, we should cut our budget down completely and declare unilateral peace with India. What the hell are we fighting for anyway? Its costing us both much more than its worth and there really shouldn't be any enmity anymore. The army should also be kicked out of banking, fertilizers, land development, DHA's and everything else. They should be stripped of their perks and sent back to the barracks. No more DHA, no more Askari corporation, no more the country existing for the army rather than the other way around! The armed forces should also be forced to give up all lands in and around the cities and be kicked out into the outskirts. Army people should not be compensated with land and the army should never be allowed to build DHA-like areas. These should all be returned to civilian rule.

9. Federations can only function properly if all the provinces are more or less equal. Punjab really throws all of this out of balance and steps should be taken to correct this mistake once and for all. Punjab should be split into 3 provinces; South, Central and North. This would give Pakistan 6 more or less equal provinces and Balochistan, NWFP and Sindh may have fewer legitimate complaints in the future if we take this bold step. The army should also be de-punjabized. It must represent all of Pakistan and this monopolization should be ended. I realize that many top generals come from NWFP and even amongst the Urdu speaking people, but everyone knows that the army has a punjabi culture and we must change that to make everyone feel that it is theirs.

10. Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf, Fazlur Rehman, Qazi, Bugti, Pir Pagara, and all other leaders that we have seen so far are all traitors. I wish the extremists would take them out instead of innocent people. The people should finally wake up and come up with a new set of people to represent them. PPP is a party of feudals. MQM is a terrorist party. PML is a punjabi party, not a Pakistani party..they always did what they did for Punjab and Lahore and didn't do much for Karachi with taxes mostly paid by Karachites. Qazi and FazlurRehman are munafiqs who misuse religion for their own gains while they secretly party it up in Dubai with underage hookers and gigolos. Not kidding!!

11. There is an exercise taking place right now to destabilize Pakistan in which Bibi, the lawyers, the media and others are all participating for their own ends. This will probably end up taking us to civil war. As drastic as this sounds, I think Mushy should have taken some tough decisions and actually really come down hard on these elements before. Now its almost too late. He should have executed a few of these elements for treason and all of these photo op people would have immediately backed off to their normal positions. Now, he has no choice but to try to smooth things out and hope for the best. He will probably compromise with Bibi and seal all of our fates with this witch from hell.

12. Mark my words, Bibi will cause a civil war. She is arrogant, a slave to foreign interests, totally insincere, completely misguided, surrounded by feudals/thugs/prostitutes/social climbers, unable to work with others, easily makes enemies for life, hated by the army, hated by most people who remember what she and her husband have done to our country.

God, I pray for a miracle!

Masadi sahib,

Maybe it is high time Pakistan followed Costa Rica's example (which disbanded its military just to avoid military coup) and abolished its army altogether. Seriously speaking Pakistan does not face any external threat, neither India nor Iran nor China would want to attack Pakistan and even if they do Paki nukes can take care of them. The real threat Pakistan faces are internal insurgency (which are best tackled by combination of political and developmental effort and paramilitary forces) and lack of institutions.

Regards

Unlike the ignoramus Goldfinger who points fingers at individuals, I look at the institutions of state and military, how they interact and what results that has produced, more of the same BS will produce more of the same. The military as a factor needs to be taken care of, it needs to be removed from ALL matters of the state and all incursions into industry and all feudal aspirations. In fact the people of Pakistan need to oust this occupation force of the Americans from our soil. They need to be ousted and thrown out, lock stock and barrel

skeptical writes "As I have said before Police state should be condemned in whatever Government arrangement we are refering to"

When politicians have to operate under the military gun either explicit as today or implicit in the "sham democracy", that is no democracy, but even the sham democracy is to be preferred to outright BS of the Musharraf kind. Goldfinger is a mere apologist for dictatorship, he as well as Musharraf want to kill the nation and its institutions in order to "save" it. The corruption of the military dictators is second to none, it is corruption on a society wide level, not the personal level of the politicians. If the military as a factor is removed, and with it the imperial decree, the politicians in Pakistan will cure their corruption, guaranteed, as they people will take care of them if they don't, together with the military gone, we will need curbs on industry, nationalization by the people would be a good start and the breakup of the feudal system, the military, feudal and the industry/neo feudal nexus of power is what creates corruption among the politicians, they are not born corrupt, they simply haven't been given room enough to grow, applying more of the same bs, military dictatorship will do nothing to fix the problem, on the other hand, the corruption of this nexus will far exceed any personal corruption of the BB or NS or anyone else...

The conspiracy theory is there or is the movement self spiralling.
Remember in 1977 when dollars were poured in to eliminate popular Bhutto, but ultimately it was coup which eliminated him.
If the supreme court has suddendly decided to amend its past inactivity by being proactive by meddling in all the affairs of state and giving it a right direction. Does it has the legal authority to enforce its decision. That is the job of Administartion. How does Judiciary expect to enforce its decision with a hostile administration. Or to put it another way, once the judiciary's job is over (getting rid of Musharraf and weakening the Pakistan Army and defence) what in the world can guarantee that they will continue to be proactive in future and will not be BOUGHT by new administration. (Remember they could do nothing when Nawaz S was returned to Holy Land)
APDM broke Maulana FazlurRehman parted way with JI. Nawaz Sharif was abusing BB for partnership with Musharraf till few weeks back now wants to ally with BB for its survival in Punjab against their old friend Pervez Ilahi.
Let these people fight for something better than their "Kursi".
Moreover at this crucial moment when survival of Pakistan is at stake, we need to come up with a better plan than to fragment the society further behind people who have no better agenda than getting their hands in the pie.
Musharraf and his advisors are to blame for some rash decisions which have resulted in alienation of people of Pakistan. We should not hasten the demise of Pakistan by fragmenting the society further.
Are our leaders ready to take the destiny of Pakistan and its people. Let's give MQM, FazlurRehman and Pervez Ilahi (and whoever wants to do so rather than doing only agitation)another chance to continue to serve their constituency. Lets leave the defense and foreign policy of Pakistan in the hands of defense forces as has been norm since 1977.

no dish for you...

Authorities stop sale of satellite dishes in Islamabad

* Prices of satellite dish antennae rise in Rawalpindi and Islamabad

By Aamir Yasin

RAWALPINDI/ISLAMABAD: Authorities stopped the sale of satellite dish antennae on Tuesday in a bid to prevent people from accessing private TV channels for the latest political developments concerning the state of emergency.

Police visited various markets in and around the twin cities and verbally ordered shopkeepers selling dish antennae to close down their shops or face stern action.

Price hike: The government has already pulled news channels and cable networks are only airing entertainment channels, a move that caused a sharp increase in the sale of dish antennae and digital receivers nationwide. The price of a dish antenna rose from Rs 5,500 to Rs 9,000 in Rawalpindi and from Rs 5,000 to Rs 20,000 in Islamabad as a result.

In Rawalpindi, shopkeepers told Daily Times that police visited Imperial Market, Raja Bazaar, Iqbal Road, Commercial Market, Chotta Bazaar, Saddar and DAV College Road and told shopkeepers to close their stores immediately.

Plainclothesmen were deployed in and around the markets to keep an eye on the shops that dealt in dish antennae and accessories.

Muhammad Kareem, a shopkeeper in the electronics market on DAV College Road, said that the demand for dish antennae had risen tremendously after the state of emergency was imposed in the country and that he had sold more than 50 sets.

“There are two main wholesale dealers of dish antennae in Rawalpindi – Kamran Electronics and Antennaways - and they had to close their shops,” Kaleem Ahmad, a shopkeeper, said.

In Islamabad, dish antenna shops in Aabpara, Blue Area, Super Market, Jinnah Super Market, F-10, G-8, G-9 and other markets were closed. However, the sale of dish antennae continues, as people are willing to pay extra to get them on the black market.

Re: # 100

bubba,

calm down ! ..... everything will be just fine as soon as geo is back on air and the politicians can go back to yelling at each other ... two more days and fazloo and bb will be falling over each other trying to cut a deal with mushy ..... the only real impact of this emergency thing will be that some lawyers might have to buy new suits ........ and don't worry about the silly cj; he will get a cushy job in the next administration .... who knows, he might even become the president one day ........

As the CJ Iftikhar Choudary asked us, we must continue our struggle to get rid of this nuisance megalomaniac General Musharraf. This General and his administration has become a liability to the nation of Pakistan.

sue-u-2: Those are brave men and women indeed. Musharraf knows that terrorists are in fact his job security - and it is these lawyers and the rule of law that they represent that he truly fears.

I don't know much about Pakistan. However I've been very inspired by the judicial systems and lawyers rising up for thier rights in Pakistan. I beleive the American system is one of the best in the world but we do get carried away by billable hours *grin*


/fh

whose left? .....the sufi's !!!

"we wont let a few thugish landlords and their indentured slaves decide the destiny of Pakistan, and you can add to that a few ignorant pathans and their more ignorant mullahs"

yar borivli, you take away landlords, slaves, pathans and mullahs then whats left? who are these theykedards of pakistan that who decide the destiny exactly?

The Freedom Agenda Fizzles
How George Bush and Condoleezza Rice made a mess of Pakistan.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Nov. 5, 2007, at 7:18 PM ET
(Continued from page 1)

We can't do much about this now, but we might have been able to do something about it two years ago or six months ago. The fact that we didn't is a grave indictment of Bush's foreign policy, both its practices and its principles.

For instance, nearly all of the $10 billion in U.S. military aid to Pakistan has gone to its military. Bush could have at least tried to funnel a larger portion of the aid to democratic institutions.

This crisis was triggered last March when Musharraf fired the chief justice of the Supreme Court for criticizing his rule. That set off the unprecedented street rallies by the nation's lawyers. That emboldened the Supreme Court, which started to take its duties seriously. That gave rise to the near-certainty that the court would rule Musharraf's reign illegal. That tipped Musharraf to suspend the constitution—and, with it, the courts.

Since Bush officials stay in touch with Musharraf quite frequently, and since they are known to pay at least lip service to democracy, someone could have at least advised Musharraf to get off this track. No one could have expected him to turn democrat, but he could have taken palliative measures—or cynical ones: for instance, paying off the justices—to ward off a crisis.

The Bush foreign policy was neither shrewd enough to play self-interested power politics nor truly principled enough to enforce its ideals.

One consequence of this crisis is that Bush's "freedom agenda" is finally bankrupt. He will never again be able to invoke it, even as a rhetorical ploy, without evoking winces or laughter.

In his second inaugural address, where Bush first declared that the main aim of his foreign policy would be to spread democracy and topple tyranny all around the world, he warned dictators that good relations with America "would require the decent treatment of their own people."

Musharraf's proclamation is the definitive proof that no dictator takes—or ever will again take—that warning seriously.

In the same address, Bush spun an appealing but specious syllogism: Tyranny breeds discontent; discontent breeds hatred and terrorism; terrorism threatens U.S. security; therefore, promoting democracy enhances U.S. security. Or, as he put it, "America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one."

Musharraf's proclamation, and Bush's muted response to it, proves that interests and ideals, alas, still sometimes clash.

But the most dismaying contradiction appears in the 2006 edition of the official document titled "The National Security Strategy of the United States of America." In his introduction, Bush wrote, "We seek to shape the world, not merely be shaped by it; to influence events for the better instead of being at their mercy."

Musharraf's proclamation reveals that we are not the "sole superpower" that Bush and his associates thought we were; that sometimes the combination of vital interests and mediocre diplomacy put us all too desperately at the mercy of events.

The Freedom Agenda Fizzles
How George Bush and Condoleezza Rice made a mess of Pakistan.
By Fred Kaplan


Now we've really got problems.

The state of emergency in Pakistan signals yet another low point in President George W. Bush's foreign policy—a stark demonstration of his paltry influence and his bankrupt principles. More than that, the crackdown locks us in a crisis—a potentially dangerous dynamic—from which there appears to be no escape route.

For much of last week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other top U.S. officials had been urging Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, not to declare martial law. He not only ignored these pleas; he defied them.

Last month, Rice persuaded Musharraf to let exiled former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto back in the country—and persuaded Bhutto to go back—as part of a power-sharing deal. The idea was that Musharraf, who doubles as army chief of staff, would retain control of the military in the fight against terrorism, while Bhutto would attract the loyalty of Pakistan's increasingly discontented democrats. That ploy, too, turned out to be illusory: Bhutto was attacked the moment she got back; Musharraf showed no interest in sharing power.

Musharraf is portraying his suspension of the constitution as a necessary step to stabilize Pakistan and fend off Islamist terrorists. Yet the timing suggests it was, for the most part, a power grab. Pakistan's Supreme Court was about to rule that Musharraf's reign as both president and army chief of staff was unconstitutional. That meant the coming elections (which may or may not now be called off) would have ended his reign. And so he dissolved the court. He also arrested many democratic activists and shut down the nation's independent media.

It should now be clear, if it wasn't already, that Musharraf has been diddling Bush & Co. the past three years or longer.

In exchange for his promises to root out Taliban terrorists on the Afghan border and within Pakistan's own intelligence service, Bush has supplied Musharraf with at least $10 billion in aid. Yet while Musharraf has rendered considerable assistance in the war on terrorism, the Taliban—and possibly Osama Bin Laden himself—retain their sanctuary in Pakistan's northwest territories.

In exchange for Musharraf's promises to be a good democrat someday, Bush has declared Pakistan to be a "major non-NATO ally." Yet, with his strategically timed state of emergency, Musharraf has revealed he's not at all interested in democratic transitions.

But what can Bush—or his successor—do about it? The problem is that there's some truth to Musharraf's official reason for his crackdown. He has been going after al-Qaida jihadists, especially those inside his own country, though not so much Taliban fighters on the border of Afghanistan. And he is in a genuinely tight spot. On the one hand, he fears what some Western officials call the "Talibanization of Pakistan." On the other hand, he can't go after them too avidly, for fear of sparking a backlash from some of his own officers who have Islamist sympathies and who don't want to be seen as fighting America's war.

As Daniel Markey, a former State Department specialist on south Asia, wrote last summer in Foreign Affairs magazine, the army is "Pakistan's strongest government institution and the only one that can possibly deal with immediate threats of violent militancy and terrorism."

If the United States were to respond to this power grab by cutting off aid to the Pakistani army, the army would turn elsewhere—and the Islamist factions would be strengthened. If the United States were to cut its links to Musharraf … well, Musharraf is the face of the Pakistani army. If he goes, probably some other strongman would take his place, but the tenuous coalition he has assembled could fall apart in the process, with unpredictable—but almost certainly unpleasant—results.

And let's not forget the ultimate unpleasant fact: Pakistan has a test-proven nuclear arsenal.

Someone was speculating this morning on the BBC that the Bush administration might have a secret ally, an agent of sorts, within the Pakistani military command, poised to step in and serve U.S. interests if Musharraf fell. This is very doubtful. First, there are the obvious reasons (Bush's intense commitment to Musharraf and the military's relative impenetrability). Second, if Bush did have some fallback leader, it's unlikely Rice would have put so much effort—however fruitless the gesture now seems—to getting Bhutto back in the country for a power-sharing gambit. Nor, by the way, are there any civilian politicians in whom the United States could put its hopes; as Daniel Markey indicates in his article (and he is far from alone in this view), there are no civilian politicians, parties, or other entities that could exercise power without the military's nod.

This is why the Bush administration's response to the clampdown has been, as they say, "muted." The fact is, the United States needs Musharraf more than Musharraf needs the United States. And the fact that he's rubbing our noses in it doesn't make it any less true.

http://www.slate.com/id/2177249

very well put.

What democracy and people are u donkeys talking about, the people of pakistan never come out to vote, we wont let a few thugish landlords and their indentured slaves decide the destiny of Pakistan, and you can add to that a few ignorant pathans and their more ignorant mullahs. NO Sir that wont happen.

Re: # 87

Netizen are you that typical runted bathed in cumin narrow minded hog?

o worshipper of modi and thakrey we muslims dont depend on mass murders and rapists of minority women and children to overcome our inferiority complex of a thousand years

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 83

I agree totally with you on the checks and balances thing we would not be where we are now if we ever had that however thats a totally different tangent, what I mean to say is that we just don;t want the same old corrupt faces to come in as our saviours again since they failed miserably sundry times before and will surely do so again

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 82

mr. goldfinger,

keep your finger out of this!

Re: # 83
Well said!!!

#80 we are barking up the wrong tree if we are looking for geniuses. The important thing is to have a system of checks and balances, aka democracy. No one man is so gifted that he can assume unchecked power (certainly not musharraf, btw, who would not be in the spot he is in where 80% of the country is against him if he was less clever and more wise)

Re: # 78

Mr. Netizen please don't get too apoplectic you might get a brain haemorhage and collapse in front of you computer

Why dont you come and fix us we have been interfering in Kashmir that you claim as yours for 20 years why dont u cross the border and fix us:) we are waiting, lakhs and crores of us armed and ready. Or you can only fix the women and children who live under your rule. People who do mujras on kothas shouldnt point fingers at others.

Come and attack us if u can walk the talk?

Re: # 74

In an ideal world that would be perfect but must change be brought just for the sake of change? What if somebody is doing better than any other prospects in sight, must he still be thrown off just to bring in change and the corrupt for the sake of change? OK if we have some brilliant geniuses waiting in the wings but who and what do you see for a change?

well we saw u f allah for the past 1000 years :) and how u fed the chinis

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 74
Tahmed this is a simple point which many on this website are failing to understand. In fact Mr Brovili Express started to abuse me when I tried to criticize Musharraf's steps to make Pakistan a police state

#72 isnt 8 years of posing as the lesser of two evils (military rule vs. mullah rule) enough for mush? and what kind of a low bar is it to be a lesser evil than terrorists?

i would rather have a corrupt politician who can be thrown out of power by the people if he/she does not shape up than have a supposedly honest general who refuses to leave even after 8 years of illegitimate rule.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 63

none can be for a po;ice state but then don;t they say that of two evils choose the lesser one

Re: # 63

none can be for a po;ice state but then don;t they say that of two evils choose the lesser one

Netizen unlike you even our mujahids are honorable no matter how low you hindus stoop we will never mass rape and mutilate women and children, you might think Modis have scared us, no they have only disgusted us and shown us the true face of hindus and hinduism which we had been warned of by our elders

You are welcome to heroworship modis to us it helps reveal your true and hidden face

#62 Posted by Goldfinger on November 6, 2007 11:53:47 am

HAHA...mirchi lagi?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#60 Posted by borivili_express on November 6, 2007 11:46:38 am

HAHA..that's what you said in 1999..that a commando general has now taken over and he would kick dhoti wearing vajpayee's rear and get kashmir for the purelanders.

Beware of Indians like this netizen, they consider heroes those who mutilate muslim women and children for the sole crime of being muslim read the latest issue of Tehelka magazine.

Pakistanis no matter what crises the nation goes through, now you know why we need nuclear weapons to protect ourselves from beasts who praise demagogues and genociders?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

South east Paksitan

Look in principle we are all pro democracy. But we know democracy means BB or NS. We know their record was crap and they were hugely corrupt , absolute poverty was at a level of 35% before 2000 and now its at 23% ...the economy was the pits.....etc etc.

Mush has done some good things for the country. His struggle for absolute authority getting a little hard to bear though and its making him do crazier and crazier things.

In the end we have two very flawed ways to go ....a sad pathetic democracy or a sad pathetic dictatorship.


North west pakistan

This is where the action is. Time is running out for us to avert a real catastrophe there ...and by that i mean civil war, famine, desperation and the usual fall out of disintegration....not to mention a potential hostile takeover by loonies. If only we knew who would be better at mending that fence without impaling themselves or anyone else.

Re: # 59
As I have said before Police state should be condemned in whatever Government arrangement we are refering to. I agree with you as long as you are against a police state.

Re: # 58
Rather than worry about dead Pakis raw should really worry about those countless half dead Indis that slumber on the rail-road tracks of Bombay (because they are all homeless) only to rise daily and then empty their innards in an ugly chorus for the world to see and puke about

Re: # 55
OK fine mr express, the point is that agencies do not just hand over your country men like that. They torture and abuse and at times do not even give USA chance to exercise their decency the poor man is already dead.
Since you have taken a position here your ego is preventing you to acknowledge that this practice is a wrong practice. The point is again missed by you-it is not CJ, Mushi, BB or NS. Its about people and their fundamental rights

And yes stop these abuses and act like a grown up man. I am just asking you to reflect. If you think I am wrong, fine-but let me assure you that poor's blood is not an amusement for me. If it had been, I would have been supporting Musharraf today. I can also come up with these filthy abuses but I wont. Take a chill pill. No hard feelngs we are just interacting on a site which states "unflinching idealism since 1997"
I have nothing more to add- you are prefectly entitled to your views.

But Just pray indians that a Marde momin does not take over the army or the state or before india can enter the 21st century it will be sent back to your beloved Ram Rajya or even earlier to the age of Ramapithecus.