We the Silent Majority and the Muslim Fanatics

Re: # 29
Yups...
You are brilliant!!!!
and humorous in an intelligent "incohorent" way!!!

Re: # 28

yaaah! we seem to agree on the basic outlines, but differ marginally on the internal dynamics.

just a thought here....if we agreed on the basic outlines, agreed on the internal dynamics, and masked all of this - externally we would appear to have differing dynamics. Its the hidden eigen value syndrome!

Re: # 26
I was merely replying to your assertion that masses come out when "real" issues are voiced.....
What real issue was being expected on 18th October 2007….
And why there is a difference on 9th November….

Emergency perhaps….
Turn out at a given day may be a “logistic” issue rather than a reflection of “real” underlying social dynamics…
So a 100 million march with a million in the park picnic syndrome, though extremely well put with intelligent humour, is perhaps dependent on organization and state “permission….”

#26 Posted by Dash_Dot,

The rally in Karachi cost Rs 1 billion from BBs pocket. I don't think she's going to throw good money after bad money after the 158 corpses in Karachi.

Re: # 25

You have put your finger on it, let me quote you

on 18th October Karachi was jam packed with masses and yet PPP’s million march is a non starter to begin with…

This is what I have been trying to highlight right from start. BiBi and Mush-e-ruff have agreed as to what the end/goal is. All that is happening now is that the air is full of empty words and meaningless dynamics.

The key agreement is on who is going to handle the largess given by Uncle Yankee and how it is going to be distributed. Shareef-e-badmash tried to poach part of the purse but he was given the cold shoulder.

So by all means voice your opposition on what is happening now - but answer to yourself what is it you voicing your opinion about or over? It is this "happening" that is the cause of the imbalance in the force field (to use a star wars phrase - hey I have just seen all 6 parts back to back this week).

Re: # 24

Bhai Dash Dot, I know for the average common or what is called in a taunting manner as "unwashed/un civil" man, uniform is not an issue….
I agree with that… but even if you take the real issues, there are not going to long marches in times of emergency….
Collective political action can easily be subdued in Pakistan, after all no one could come out when “Roti Kapra Makan” leader was hanged and yet they flocked by the millions in 1986 and 2007 to the airport when his elitist daughter who unlike her father does not even give a semblance of “commonness” was returning…
People are in this country not organized for collective action….They can only come out through the organizational apparatus of a well entrenched political party such as PPP and that too only when the State allows them the luxury…
You do not find it a little strange that on 18th October Karachi was jam packed with masses and yet PPP’s million march is a non starter to begin with…
Let me be clear about my take….
Uniform is not an essential issue but systems of checks and balances is….The real issues won’t be even discussed until the platform for these issues is structured in such a manner.In emergency you take away the rght for political protest in an effective manner-I am against emergency for that reason...
So my deliberately “incoherent” and cynically humorous friend, we have to voice opposition on what is happening right now…

Re: # 23 well skippy, they say laughter is the best medicine. I say humour is the best source of reason.

I agree with what you say....
"Emergency and usurpation of fundamental rights just to prolong a Military strongman’s rule are not going to provide any chance to discuss these issues and the focus will always be on the crappy problems"

BUt the real problem is this.....the fight has been reduce to just this and if you notice the million man march is a non-starter (in fact chk out hamidm2'd posts - the man is prescient (sp????)). If you really want these guys to turn out then you need to have something more than uniform as an issue.
for the average abdul it dont matter one jot bit whether it is BiBi-e-das-percent, shareef-e-badmash, mush-e-ruff things have always been the same. for the average abdulli iuts the same. No one is ever going to improve their condition.


hence (to quote you)"Regarding the attitude or statements of incompetent politicians like NS and BB, I do endorse your take that no one has actually effectively touched the core issues like employment, equality, feudalism and security" ----I agree. When they do, and if it makes sense to the abdul and abdulli you will get a 100million strong march and make the million man march a picnic in the park!

Re: # 13
Bhai Dash Dot
You do amuse me a lot through a combination of “deliberate” incoherence punctuated by sheer brilliance !!!
You seem to air a rather anti middle class of a stance and assume that democracy or judiciary, since of no concern to the common man are an issue solely for the urban middle class and for the satisfaction of their self righteous morality conditioned by their own material circumstances….
Hmmmm…..
Democracy, in reality is far from a perfect system- in fact no matter how much I may like to support it the reality is that electoral system is heavily skewed towards rich and powerful in Pakistan. But democracy as you said earlier is more than fcuking vote…
It is also about a proper meaningful discussion about the identification of the problems, and launching a concrete effort to actually address these problems…
So you are right, but to give ourselves any realistic chance to have that kind of a platform which can be used for discussing these issues, mundane crap has to be settled down and dealt away with completely. Emergency and usurpation of fundamental rights just to prolong a Military strongman’s rule are not going to provide any chance to discuss these issues and the focus will always be on the crappy problems. Unless these apparently mundane issues of uniform are not settled, we are not going to move forward. Removal of the uniform is not a magic wand, I fully agree, but a small and yet necessary step forward as absolute power has to be curtailed…
Regarding the attitude or statements of incompetent politicians like NS and BB, I do endorse your take that no one has actually effectively touched the core issues like employment, equality, feudalism and security.

#18 Posted by Naqshbandi,

I see you're increasingly coming around to my POV.

Just a bit more, and you will make it!

Hey Harish,

I just saw your picture and I must apologize for some of the things I said. You are definitely not a janitor in Dubai….you are at least driver material. In fact, my driver in Dubai looks a lot like you. He’s a little shy and won’t let me take his picture so show everyone, but I swear to God you look just like him. Don’t be offended, you didn’t mention your education in your profile. If you tell me you have a degree, maybe we can get you into a call center after a little training to do something about that “illay illay unda unda popre lay” accent of yours.

#19 Posted by masadi on November 8, 2007 11:07:30 am

really? when was the last time you heard an American go to bradford to help out his fellow "white man" during race riots started by brit-pakis?

The dumb8 writes "When was the last time you heard of a catholic spaniard planning to blow up a british embassy because of what the brits are doing to their fellow irish."

That is because it is largely a local conflict and not an internationalized conflict thanks to the US and its importation of "Islamic" fighters to fight the SU, which has internationalized a Frankenstein of its own creation. You see a similar phenomena in WW1 when volunteers from the US went in to aid the Brits because of ethnicity and national origin, you see it during race riots when people come to the aid of those that are similar to them, you even see it during sporting events, and when the Church tried to internationalize conflicts during the Middle Ages you heard of it among Catholics on a much larger scale. Just because the Hindu and Catholic identities have been eclipsed by national or ethnic concerns does not mean the phenomena is any different to the international fighters brandishing their Islamic identity, who are actually the Crusader's caricature of Islam brought to life by labelling...get a damn education fool.

We need to return to the Quran and Sunnah as historically represented for over 1000 years by the Four School of Sunni Orthodoxy which coexisted without any problems. Traditional Islamic fiqh principles are so brilliant that they allow qualified legal islamic scholars to adduce rulings for any modern development now or in the future till Qayamat.

I do think though that the mainstream Muslim majority [both Sunni and Shia] are also largely to blame for the rise of the extremist lunatic fringe who disavow the classical consensus for their own deranged interpretations which lead to the atrocities we see today. Our fault is that we depoliticised Islam completely--understandable perhaps given the traumas of colonisation and loss of caliphate and Muslim sultanates everywhere--and turned Islam into a purely devotional faith. Whereas traditionally classical Islam balanced the temporal and the spiritual: the Sufis also advised the sultans and took part in jihad! By leaving the political arena to the extremist ghair muqallids we have shot ourselves in the foot. The solution is for the silent mainstream Muslim traditionalists of the 4 Schools and the Sufi tariqahs to get politically involved so that we can have insha Allah--when it is His Will--a union of strong, Islamic, states governed by the Sacred Law with an Amir at its head till Allah sends the Mahdi alayhisalam.

The Christian/Hindu/Marxist Tamil Tigers have carried out more than 200 suicide bombs but we never hear about their religion!


Duh...if hindu punjabis from patiala blow themselves up in colombo bars for the LTTE's cause because they are hindus, that would be hindu terrorism..

When was the last time you heard of a catholic spaniard planning to blow up a british embassy because of what the brits are doing to their fellow irish.

muslims are in major denial..

Another excerpt from the same series in Economist, to which category most chowk hindoos belong, which is why I have nothing but contempt for them:

... some in the Hindutva movement think the real territorial crime is the existence of Pakistan itself. Hinduism, they claim, is the religion of “Hindustan”, the whole subcontinent. Maps in Hindutva offices have a habit of missing out the Pakistani border.

At the moment India's relationship with Pakistan is relatively peaceful, partly because Pakistan is not in a state to be unpeaceful with anybody. But both sides now have nuclear weapons. And Hindus persistently worry that Indian Muslims are a fifth column. One Hindu nationalist, Prafull Goradia, suggests that Indian Muslims should be forced to take an oath of loyalty (though he would rather Muslims of all sorts moved to Arabia).

Islam's agenda is "submission" through careful genocide and terrorism- it is a perfect mafiaso code - all Bhai Bhai love it - that is why it is the most popular in jails - the mafiasos love to see the world of Allah coinciding with their vision................

Back to the Ottomans ...

How different is Islam?

Turkey matters enormously to two big debates about religion in public life. The first is specifically to do with Islam: how compatible is it with political modernity? The second should be universal: where exactly to draw the line between religion and the modern state? Sadly, Turkey is one of the few Muslim countries where that debate is possible to have.

Merely posing the question of whether Islam is different raises Muslim hackles. They sense a post-September 11th witch-hunt, and with some cause. Every Western schoolboy now “knows” that the Koran promises suicide-bombers will be provided with 72 virgins (not true) and that in Muslim countries you can get stoned to death for being gay (true, sadly, in some places). Yet few Western schoolboys know much about the equally blood-curdling texts of the Old Testament: if you want illiberal family law, Leviticus is hard to beat.

Islamic politics, Muslims continue, is not uniform: Kano is very different from Karachi or Kuwait. And the troubles of Arabia, they maintain, have little to do with religion. They were caused by the Ottoman empire being amateurishly subdivided by the British, invaded by the Americans, occupied by Israel and exploited by the oil companies.

All these things may be true, but they do not stop Islam being different. There are still reasonable questions a dispassionate observer (or a Muslim) should be asking. Why is Islam involved in quite so many modern wars of religion? Why have its believers coped so badly with modernisation? Back in 1700 it controlled three of the world's economic superpowers—the Ottoman empire, Persia and India. Today, despite (or perhaps because of) oil, the Arab world in particular lags behind on most indices of modernity, from the number of books published to investment in science. Political bad luck cannot explain all of this.

The first answer that many Muslims and Westerners jump to—that Islam is stuck in a clash of civilisations with the West—seems unconvincing. Put simply, the main battle is not taking place in that arena. One great irony of the war on terror is that although George Bush has declared war upon jihadism, his enemies devote very little energy to fighting him.

The jihadists' main war is not against the West but against apostate Muslim regimes: where they do battle with outsiders, it is mainly against occupying powers—Russia in Chechnya, America in Iraq, India in Kashmir and Israel in Palestine.

(http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10015189

Re: # 12
Same stuff...while the rest of the world is addressing issues of livelihood and how they would be able to meet the aspirations of their peoples now and in the next few generations, in Pakistan it is the same old broken record of the past few years.

BiBi: Restore democracy. Get rid of your uniform. Nawaz join my committee. Courts should be free.

Nawaz: democracy restoration is my interest. Get rid of your uniform. BiBi join my group. Curts should judiciary and free

JI and jihadis: democracy is man-made can be changed or made null and void. Bring on Shariah. Pakisatn ka kya matlab

Army: you bloody idiots donot know anything. We are the saviours of pakistan.

Not one, group has said anything about what they would do once democracy or their flavour of governance is installed. Its as if by some black-magic all the troubles of pakistan will vanish.

Do any of the pakistanis (NOT THE NRPs) really think any of these groups have the policies/ideas wherewithall to solve the problems of the peoples and show the way forward?

Democracy means something more than a fcuking vote. It also means a proper discussion on the roti-kapada-makaan issues - who they are going to brought about and they will be provided for in the future as well - involving the great unwashed.

So to quote/paraphrase TAhmed32: while India and China are surging forward, Pakistan is engaged in the Navel Contemplation of the word "futility".

The Silent Majority cannot make things happen by itself.

It needs a voice, a focus, a group of sincere leaders.

Moderates are usually pro-status quo.

Sir Syed (of Aligarh fame) still gets ridicule from

extremists for working within the system of the time.

Fanatics are in the process of defining ALL of Islam.

That has to be prevented.

The tough question is how and not when....

#9 Posted by harish_hyd,

Amaan Harish Bhai, kya kaj behsi kar rahey ho ...

Mian, you may not have heard but the accused in Daniel Pearl case are in jail right now awaiting outcome of their appeal against their death sentences.

Happy now?

women do little more than make us look away.

Geographical distribution of dowry deaths, 1994
Source: National Crimes Bureau, Home Ministry
Andhra Pradesh - 396
Arunachal Pradesh - 0
Assam - 13
Bihar - 296
Goa - 0
Gujarat - 105
Haryana - 191
Himachal Pradesh - 4
Jammu & Kashmir - 1
Karnataka - 170
Kerala - 9
Madhya Pradesh - 354
Maharashtra - 519
Manipur - 0
Meghalaya - 0
Mizoram - 0
Nagaland - 2
Orissa - 169
Punjab - 117
Rajasthan - 298
Sikkim - 0
Tamilnadu - 83
Tripura - 6
Uttar Pradesh - 1977
West Bengal - 349
Andaman & Nicobar - 1
Chandigarh - 3
Dadra & Nagar Haveli - 0
Daman & Diu - 0
Delhi - 132
Lakshadweep - 0
Pondicherry - 4
Total - 5199

Zee bhai, you do have a point there, but how many beheaders have been arrested, let alone convicted as compared to cases of bride burning in India?

#7 Posted by harish_hyd,

I think being arrested means doing something against the law ... and not being automatically punished. Or don't you think so?

#6 by smellthecoffee

So is beheading in Pakistan :)

So has Daniel Pearl's murderer been punished?

#3 Posted by harish_hyd,

So is beheading in Pakistan :)

#4 should have been directed towars the author.

#2 I think it started after the invaders from cenral asia and rabia started taking away the women....but you already know about this.....anyway carry on....

#2 by smellthecoffee

Zee bhai, only in India, whether voluntary or involuntary bride burning is a criminal offense :-)

Author,

Hindus have been burning widows with their husbands for thousands of years. That too was considered honour-kill and only recently the custom seems to have gone out of fashion.

err ... actually now the husband doesn't have to die first ... hinuds burn the brides anyway :-)

Many keep quoting the LTTE suicide bombers and the jihadis as similar. There is a world of difference. LTTE is seeking a political solution, while the jihadis have a notion of muslim world and an ultimate kilafat covering all of the muslims. Muslims do not believe in nation states, the believe in muslim world. They do not have a political arm and a suicide arm for the movement. Then again, the perception of muslim oppression is merely of a religious nature, in india because hindus are in majority, it is oppression. Every where, whether in the UK or in Netherlands, muslims are oppressed, more than mulsims in saudi or pakistan or in any other muslim country. That is why the UK born and brought up muslims come to pakistan trained as jihadis and bomb the london buses.

Take the case of 9/11, the suadis who did it had nothing to do with the palestinians or any other so called oppressed muslims. Jihad by its very nature believes in the killing of the kafirs, loosely defined by the relevant mullah, it is seeking of a personal heaven.

Take the case of pakistan, they created so many jihadis for the sake of killing the kafirs in india, but it is the very same jihadis who are bombing the muslims of pakistan, because some mullah ordered them to do that. Muslim terrorism is wanton, there is larger vision, just kill...kill.