Overcoming Learned Helplessness and Apathy

bulleya writes "United Emirate of Pakistan"

Man, people here are worried about the more immediate things, how to get rid of the person the Daily Telegraph described as a sonofabitch. And here we have you, an Army supporter trying to jump the gun and legitimize the Pakistan Army's eventual breakup of Pakistan. Why do you give fuel and fodder to damn fools like hamid to poke fun at you with. You are a smart guy, think before you put your fingers to the keyboard.....

bulleya writes "United Emirate of Pakistan"

Man, people here are worried about the more immediate things, how to get rid of the person the Daily Telegraph described as a sonofabitch. And here we have you, an Army supporter trying to jump the gun and legitimize the Pakistan Army's eventual breakup of Pakistan. Why do you give fuel and fodder to damn fools like hamid to poke fun at you with. You are a smart guy, think before you put your fingers to the keyboard.....

Hamid writes "......... do we wait for jemima ?"

Get over your damn inferiority complex, and worship of all things white. The Jemima protest was mere tamashabazi, and the idiot in hiding is a pathetic fool who is dying to get her back because his mind is still enslaved. He should get over that before he tries to be a part of the political muck hole of Pakistan....thanks to people like you, you little .......

Bulleya #34 {"……and karachi and hyderabad can be off on their own…….the muhajirs can then set up their singapore and utlize their education to generate taxes for themselves and not for the rest of pakistan……..they can legalize drinking and dancing like the rest of the civilized world, without worrying about stupid punjabis and pathans dictating to them…
...
…….altaf bhai of jinnahpur...and if a muhajir general and a muhajir political party have gone nuts and have joined hands to become dictators, give them a jinnahpur, where they can do it, without trying to rule over the rest of us......"}

Romair,
A lot of good logic in your sound idea. Thank you for including Mohajirs in your scheme of things. Some exceptions - we don't want to call it Jinnahpur - in fact, you can take the old man and his bones up north, just give us Jehangir from Lahore (not Asma, but Salim). Also, you can keep Perv - he walks like, quacks like a Punju.

hamidm #37 What do I want you to think? That is not for me to say. All I ask is that you look at the facts - it is not just a handful of lawyers and lums students who are onto Musharraf's games. Here is a start on looking at some facts, and article in the Washington Post today, which basically says what majumdar in #32 is saying, e.g.:

The Answer in Pakistan
By Thomas R. Pickering, Carla Hills and Morton Abramowitz
Tuesday, November 13, 2007;

Excerpts:

Today, the alternative to Musharraf's military rule is not a mob of radical Islamists -- this is not Iran in the 1970s. The alternative, as in the Philippines, is a moderate, secular political opposition organized into political parties. Both the Pakistan People's Party under Benazir Bhutto and the Pakistan Muslim League under Nawaz Sharif are opposed to the jihadi movements. They have publicly committed themselves to combating not only al-Qaeda but also the political and military leadership of the Taliban living in Pakistan, a point on which Musharraf has been notably reluctant to act.


Poll after poll has found that if fair and free elections were held under constitutional protections and monitored by national and international observers, the result would be a moderate, pro-Western, anti-extremist government in Pakistan. A September survey by the International Republican Institute forecast the two moderate opposition parties winning 64 percent of the vote. The conservative Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid would get 16 percent, it found. All the religious parties combined would get barely 15 percent of the vote.

Musharraf has relied on an alliance with the religious parties, some of which have clear ties to jihadi groups that are themselves linked to Taliban terrorists. After the 1999 military coup installing Musharraf, they achieved their parliamentary majority only through a rigged election in 2002. In a free vote, extremists don't stand a chance. It is only Musharraf who props them up -- out of fear of what a democratic election would bring.

Indeed, the same Republican Institute poll showed that 74 percent oppose Musharraf's reelection.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/12/AR2007111201 417.html

majumdar #32 That was a good point you made ("I would have readily swallowed the havayoons winning control of much of the countryside there but there is something fishy about the ease with which they are taking over the towns.").
And if this seems fishy if the towns are single-khoka towns in swat, then it is smells like a downright fishmarket if the town is the capital of the nation, and the islamists are allowed to roam free kidnapping and harrassing ordinary citizens for months on end (as Musharraf did at lal masjid) until they overstep and have a foreign power (China in this case) tell Musharraf to stop being overclever and punish the criminals.

Re: # 31

okay tahmed, who do you want me to thank ?........ the 2000 lawyers and the 20 students from lums ?..... done! .... now what? ......... do we wait for jemima ?

Now if Pakistan splits along the lines Romair mian suggests, what would happen to folks of Kashmiri descent like him? Will they be kicked out of the autonomous provinces? If so, where would they go? "Azad" Kashmir? Now if all the provinces split and become smaller units, wouldn't it be easy for India to retake Azad Kashmir?

Umm....looks like the great military mind of Pakistan on Chowk, Romair mian has already given up on the country's prospect of surviving in its present form. Now if only the serving generals took a leaf from his book.

United Emirate of Pakistan:
---------------------------

.......countries come and countries go……it is, basically, ethnicities, religions, languages and cultures that survive…..concepts that are far more ingrained into geographic areas than the artificial boundaries of a nation-state…..during the past decade or two, many countries have split…….ussr, yugoslavia, czec republic and slaviks……..now there are talks of the belgium splitting…….as long as the breakup is peaceful, on occasion it can actually benefit the population……….

……..one spends most of one’s time in one’s home, workplace and at most, in one’s city…….as long as things are ok there, what difference does it make if someone 1000 miles breaks away……if lahore turns into dubai or paris, then do lahorites care that peshawar is in a different country……..and vice-versa……..

……….pakistan is far larger than the average country-size of the world……..just the population of punjab alone is greater than that of nearly every european country……..in addition, pakistan is totally artificial entity created due to the military conquests of young british armymen……it is very difficult for such an entity to grow organically under a centralized govt…….

…so perhaps the time has come for it to be turned into autonomously ruled independent entities……kind of like the uae……where all the emirates have their own laws and govts., yet they are, at least theoretically one country…….this seems to be what is happening in pakistan, anways…….

…….so maybe it is time for nwfp to drift off, and have its own govt…..which can declare shariah and its residents can start marrying their afghan cousins, without worrying about indivduals from pindi and michigan, like hamidm mian jumping up and down…….at which point urstruly can migrate to peshawar, painlessly, without bothering the rest of the provinces about shariah….and they can then go fight the americans, without being bombed by foolish punjabi and muhajir army genrerals…….

and lahore and the rest of punjab can become an entity of its own, which can open up is borders with indian punjab, and return the area to what it traditionally was………a large independent geographic area between hindustan and afghans……the punjabis have always been hated by those around them, and they have always hated those around them……..this area can go back to its sufiana islam, and declare punjabi its national language, without worrying about fazlullah and fazlurrahman invading it………

……and karachi and hyderabad can be off on their own…….the muhajirs can then set up their singapore and utlize their education to generate taxes for themselves and not for the rest of pakistan……..they can legalize drinking and dancing like the rest of the civilized world, without worrying about stupid punjabis and pathans dictating to them…

sindhis can form their sindhudesh and print their sindhi newspapers and speak sindhi, without blaming muhajirs for all their problems……..

baluchistan can be off on its own……its tribal chiefs can sell their gas to punjab and live in luxury……..

benazir can be the pm of sind…….altaf bhai of jinnahpur……..qazi hussein of nwfp……nawaz sharif of punjab……..some tribal of Baluchistan……..

the country can be called the UEP – United Emirates of Pakistan………the borders, within the autonomous lands can be open, the currency can be the same……no licenses required to do business in any area……..most importantly, the cricket team can be the same……..and once a year, these prime ministers can meet in Islamabad, say hello and then go back to their own lands to rule over their own people, their own police force, army, universities etc…….

basically, for someone like me, who, when in Pakistan, spends nearly all his time in Islamabad, it doesn’t really matter what is happening in peshawar, karachi, or even lahore – what to talk of quetta and tank, rahim yar khan and multan……

....if fazlullah and swatis wants shariah in swat, let them have it......what difference does it make to those in islamabad?......it will make swatis happy, as they can have lal masjids in swat, and it will make islamabadis happy, as the lal masjid will move to swat.......and vice-versa.....

...and if a muhajir general and a muhajir political party have gone nuts and have joined hands to become dictators, give them a jinnahpur, where they can do it, without trying to rule over the rest of us......

nationalistic affection (bordering on fanaticism) to geographical lands and cities, which one has never even visited must be one of the most stupidest human behaviors……

There are no variations of the basic gripe or grouse or cribbing or diatribe or balderdash or humbug or ........!!
Can someone talk the cause and walk the remedy?
From what I can discern in the multitude of cursing or polemic in the many write-ups on this forum [chowk.com], there seems to be a total lack of clarity on WHAT is wrong and WHAT needs to be done: how about starting from the premise that we require a total re-evaluation of the concept that 'parliamentary democracy' is what the doctor ordered for Pakistan? How about giving a shot at understanding what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan?
Can we suggest Chowk Editors to invite comments / views from: Janab Sharif al Mujahid , Dr. Parvez Hoodbhoy, Janab Qazi Faez al Issa, Prof Anwar Syed [his write-up, "Dealing with an emergency", DAWN, 11th November 2007, is a sort of sequel to a long list of revealing/suggestive political frame-work for Pakistan], and many other apolitical commentators

Tahmed sahib,

Re:#30

(If the taliban are a convenient "Willie Horton" that Musharraf flashes as a kind of a ticket to keep his dictatorship)

Here is waht I posted to Zee sahib on UP.

{{{I am having my doubts about the havayoon campaign in Swat. I would have readily swallowed the havayoons winning control of much of the countryside there but there is something fishy about the ease with which they are taking over the towns. Towns can readily be identified from air and it is inconceivable that the army would lose control of towns and allow them to fly Talib flags there UNLESS they wanted to do so on their own. Now you would want to know why the kanjaroon army would want that- simply to convince their Yank mentors that Mush is indispensable and that emergency is justified.

IMHO the moment the army wants they can chuck the havayoons out of the towns at least (given their recourse to white phosphorus and helicopter gunships and disreagrd for civilain casulties). Yes they wont be able to get control or countryside very easily and suicide bombing, sniping will remain constant menace but havayoon control of urband centres may be very short-lived.}}}

Regards

#30 has some confusing typos. Pl ignore and read this instead:

hamidm #26 you wrote "unfortunately we are headed for another ten years or so of the same old stuff:

There you go predicting the future again. Like I said, you are catching this dreaded disease, Nostrodamusitis from Romair.

you added "- actually, now with the new taliban factor, things could get a lot worse ..."

If the taliban have actually grown to become a real menace, then this happened under Musharraf's military rule, and it is time to give someone else a chance. If the taliban are a convenient "Willie Horton" that Musharraf flashes as a kind of a ticket to keep his dictatorship (which is what I think it basically is), then get rid of Musharraf and military rule and the taliban are no longer a problem.

So: whether you think the taliban are a real threat or a bogeyman maintained by musharraf, you should be thanking those trying to end military rule in Pakistan for trying to solve your problem for you. Instead of ridiculing them and betting on a demonstrated loser.

hamidm #26 you wrote "unfortunately we are headed for another ten years or so of the same old stuff:

There you go predicting the future again. Like I said, you are catching this dreaded disease, Nostrodamusitis from Romair.

you added "- actually, now with the new taliban factor, things could get a lot worse ..."

If the taliban have actually grown, then this happened under Musharraf's military rule, and it is time to give someone else a chance. If the taliban are a convenient "Willie Horton" that Musharraf flashes as a kind of a ticket to keep his dictatorship (which is what it basically is), then get rid of Musharraf and military rule and the taliban are no longer a problem.

So: whether you think the taliban are a real threat of a bogeyman maintained by musharraf, you should be thanking them for trying to solve your problem for you. Instead of ridiculing them.

HP sain,

(even as the economic policies eviscerate public services for much of the populace through loss of housing, education and medical care)

As if pre-" structural reform" Pakistan (and India and other third world countries) had provided universal housing, education and health services to everyone.

(not to mention employment under sweatshop conditions.)

People who are working in sweatshops today may well have been working as bonded labour on some farms or some such stuff had those sweatshops not been around.

Regards

One aspect that does not appear to have elicited much comment is that the opposition to Musharraf, the attorneys and the NGOs, are precisely the people and institutions normally relied upon by the US to legitimize policies, primarily by reducing broad social needs to legal rights and privileges.

Hence, the attorneys and NGOs emphasize due process and human rights (such as freedom of speech, the right to travel, women's rights, the right to judicial due process) even as the economic policies eviscerate public services for much of the populace through loss of housing, education and medical care, not to mention employment under sweatshop conditions.

Thus, the US faces a serious dilemma: support Musharraf over the short to medium term, at the price of allowing him to destroy the "civil society" that serves as the foundation of the neo-liberal order, to permit the ongoing prosecution of the "war on terror", or push Musharraf out, to preserve the people and institutions that the US intends to utilize to preserve long term control over the society.

Bhutto, naturally, is a lynch pin of this second approach.

My guess is that the US and Britain have started gently pushing Musharraf to stand aside, and permit younger military leader with a reformist image to take charge, a person who then proceeds to make a deal with Bhutto, containing the pressures for radical change that bubble beneath the surface.

Washington's fears about the future of this geopolitically vital, yet combustible, area are unlikely to be allayed by a prolonged crackdown by Musharraf.