Ikramul Haq November 10, 2007
#27 Posted by HP on November 12, 2007 7:03:44 pm
Learned Helplessness is not a collective behavior. Pakistanis as nation don't suffer from helplessness. The political apathy is the result of years of anti politics and anti social propaganda unleashed by the army thorough the controlled media.
Unfortunately, the intelligentsia that these two learned professors are a part of, has no idea what is taking place in Pakistan. I never expected two historians to write such a childish article. Hiring standards at LUMS must be pretty low.
It would not be bad idea however to correct these gentlemen
“the West applies double standards while dealing with despotic Muslim rulers, which creates hatred amongst the masses..”
Double standard line is oxymoron. The West or the US specifically had supported many tin pot generals in Asia, South America, Africa. The policy is not Muslim specific. I would also point out that only repressive ruler in the so called Muslim world was perhaps Saddam Hussein. The Rest of them are dictatorial but repressive is a wrong political term to use for them.
Musharaf regime or for that matter any other military regime in Pakistan were never repressive. (Exception: 9 months in e. pak) Compared to Ayub Khan and Zia ul Haq, Musharaf regime is actually benign. Neither Musharaf nor any other regime in the Muslim world is playing havoc with the peoples’ lives as the authors claim. They are all run-of-the-mill third world regimes that can be compared to the South American dictators of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Both “legal Historians” don’t show any understanding of the political-legal terms and that must not bode well for their students.
The issue really is how much we can blame the US for the situation in Pakistan.
The US certainly has a lot riding in Pakistan and there is no denying the fact that it has not hesitated to interfere in Pakistani affairs. Though the US interference is not the only cause of the miserable situation Pakistan is in.
However, in the current circumstances the simple fact is that it is vanishingly unlikely that the US will permit any form of democracy to take root in Pakistan. Keeping the Pakistani military sweet is vitally important for American. The Pakistani people are well aware that they have been turned into American puppets themselves, given free elections; they would almost certainly express against this via the ballot box. Of course Bhutto is an opportunist, but given the strength of anti-American/pro-democracy feeling in Pakistan even she might have to bend to the prevailing winds, and that's a risk the US will not be willing to take.
So the US will not support free and fair elections in Pakistan. Instead, it would prefer controlled elections where its fave Bhutto is the only one with a chance to form the government.
Unfortunately, the intelligentsia that these two learned professors are a part of, has no idea what is taking place in Pakistan. I never expected two historians to write such a childish article. Hiring standards at LUMS must be pretty low.
It would not be bad idea however to correct these gentlemen
“the West applies double standards while dealing with despotic Muslim rulers, which creates hatred amongst the masses..”
Double standard line is oxymoron. The West or the US specifically had supported many tin pot generals in Asia, South America, Africa. The policy is not Muslim specific. I would also point out that only repressive ruler in the so called Muslim world was perhaps Saddam Hussein. The Rest of them are dictatorial but repressive is a wrong political term to use for them.
Musharaf regime or for that matter any other military regime in Pakistan were never repressive. (Exception: 9 months in e. pak) Compared to Ayub Khan and Zia ul Haq, Musharaf regime is actually benign. Neither Musharaf nor any other regime in the Muslim world is playing havoc with the peoples’ lives as the authors claim. They are all run-of-the-mill third world regimes that can be compared to the South American dictators of the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Both “legal Historians” don’t show any understanding of the political-legal terms and that must not bode well for their students.
The issue really is how much we can blame the US for the situation in Pakistan.
The US certainly has a lot riding in Pakistan and there is no denying the fact that it has not hesitated to interfere in Pakistani affairs. Though the US interference is not the only cause of the miserable situation Pakistan is in.
However, in the current circumstances the simple fact is that it is vanishingly unlikely that the US will permit any form of democracy to take root in Pakistan. Keeping the Pakistani military sweet is vitally important for American. The Pakistani people are well aware that they have been turned into American puppets themselves, given free elections; they would almost certainly express against this via the ballot box. Of course Bhutto is an opportunist, but given the strength of anti-American/pro-democracy feeling in Pakistan even she might have to bend to the prevailing winds, and that's a risk the US will not be willing to take.
So the US will not support free and fair elections in Pakistan. Instead, it would prefer controlled elections where its fave Bhutto is the only one with a chance to form the government.
#26 Posted by hamidm2 on November 12, 2007 3:18:09 pm
tahmed mian,
..... if it weren't so sad, it would be funny ....... unfortunately we are headed for another ten years or so of the same old stuff - actually, now with the new taliban factor, things could get a lot worse ...... it is enough to drive a man to drink or bang his head against the floor six times a day (i am counting tahajjud) - it is either death by cirrhosis or concussion ....... take your pick
..... if it weren't so sad, it would be funny ....... unfortunately we are headed for another ten years or so of the same old stuff - actually, now with the new taliban factor, things could get a lot worse ...... it is enough to drive a man to drink or bang his head against the floor six times a day (i am counting tahajjud) - it is either death by cirrhosis or concussion ....... take your pick
#25 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 12, 2007 1:09:43 pm
#24 Kulharee,
As a member of a despised minority in Punjab, it is not wise for you to piss off egalitarian Mojos in Karachi.
This public safety message was brought to you by MQM. :)
As a member of a despised minority in Punjab, it is not wise for you to piss off egalitarian Mojos in Karachi.
This public safety message was brought to you by MQM. :)
#24 Posted by Kulharee on November 12, 2007 1:04:12 pm
#23 Chuhay, where is Tafoo basterd in all of this? Is he also looking for some opening?
#23 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 12, 2007 12:44:33 pm
Hamidumdum Sahib,
If Dubya ran the US as deftly as he runs Pakistan, Hillary would don a burka and Nancy would join a nunnery.
If Dubya ran the US as deftly as he runs Pakistan, Hillary would don a burka and Nancy would join a nunnery.
#22 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 12, 2007 12:42:34 pm
Hamidumdum Sahib,
Aunt Jemima without her syrup is like Urstruly without his beer. I think that for the sake of Pakistan, she should ditch Huge Grant and marry Zardari, freeing Bezamir Bhutni for the Dick Traitor. The Sharif bros have a better chance of bringing their brand of "kleptocracy" to Soodi Arabia with much greater rewards than keep getting turned around at Lahore airport. Auntie Sehba can join Moola Fazloola on a permanent Swati honeymoon.
Aunt Jemima without her syrup is like Urstruly without his beer. I think that for the sake of Pakistan, she should ditch Huge Grant and marry Zardari, freeing Bezamir Bhutni for the Dick Traitor. The Sharif bros have a better chance of bringing their brand of "kleptocracy" to Soodi Arabia with much greater rewards than keep getting turned around at Lahore airport. Auntie Sehba can join Moola Fazloola on a permanent Swati honeymoon.
#21 Posted by tahmed32 on November 12, 2007 12:42:00 pm
hamidm: the situation in Pakistan is so hilarious, even the scores of Pakistani killed the past few months are laughing their heads off in the grave (those who had their heads taken off in Swat while they were still living are also laughing); not to mention the thousands of pakistanis in jail who are rolling over the grave floor laughing at your joke. Pervez "Napoleon-Lincoln" Musharraf promises to give you a Gold Star for getting everyone to lighten up!!
#20 Posted by hamidm2 on November 12, 2007 11:18:27 am
see what i mean! ... you throw a whoopie cushion out there and they will jump on it ....
#19 Posted by masadi on November 12, 2007 11:15:26 am
Get the Americans out of our affairs, which means get the military out of our affairs and its excrement (also known as sh**) and by products i.e. dictators that have outlived their usefulness to the Americans, and you will see what kind of leaders emerge. The best clowns in town are the ones who are myopically dumb like our friend h2.
#18 Posted by hamidm2 on November 12, 2007 10:45:48 am
Re: # 17
salim mian,
..... i think we should elect the troika of masadi, urstruly and romair - if we are going to have a circus, we might as well have the best clowns .....
.... personally, i would vote for the sharif brothers - they seem to be well fed, have new hairdos, and nice wadrobes .... shahbaz has been looking particularly sharp since he stole khar's wife - khar still looks damn sharp for a seventy two year old guy ..... if jemima takes back imran kahn, we could also vote for him - she would still make a fine first lady after she comes out of rehab .....
.... like i said,we dont have too many choices ........ you have to dance with the ugly gal you brung to the dance .......
salim mian,
..... i think we should elect the troika of masadi, urstruly and romair - if we are going to have a circus, we might as well have the best clowns .....
.... personally, i would vote for the sharif brothers - they seem to be well fed, have new hairdos, and nice wadrobes .... shahbaz has been looking particularly sharp since he stole khar's wife - khar still looks damn sharp for a seventy two year old guy ..... if jemima takes back imran kahn, we could also vote for him - she would still make a fine first lady after she comes out of rehab .....
.... like i said,we dont have too many choices ........ you have to dance with the ugly gal you brung to the dance .......
#17 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 12, 2007 10:11:14 am
Hamidumdum Sahib,
After a long long time, I have to agree with you. Pretty crooks (only if she loses 10-15 pounds and gets rid of the bags) and psychopathic killers (wearing Paki Army uniforms to discredit our Jawans) seem to be the only choice here. Things are so bad, that I suggest a "Draft Urstruly" movement.
After a long long time, I have to agree with you. Pretty crooks (only if she loses 10-15 pounds and gets rid of the bags) and psychopathic killers (wearing Paki Army uniforms to discredit our Jawans) seem to be the only choice here. Things are so bad, that I suggest a "Draft Urstruly" movement.
#16 Posted by hamidm2 on November 12, 2007 9:26:32 am
salim mian,
.... i feel your pain, but there really are no honest people in pakistan .... even kids in kindergarten are cheating on their nursery rhymes and sums ....
......you will have to choose from the avaiable cast of known thieves, knaves and rascals ..... it is either them or maulvi fazlullah ....... petty crooks or psychopathic killers - take your pick
.... and don't be fooled by these looney lums luminaries - they are a just trying to get their picture taken with imran khan and 'rebelling' against their parents ........ they will quickly fall in line if musharraf threatens to shut down pizza hut and mcdonalds .........
#15 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on November 12, 2007 8:56:19 am
Haq Sahib,
Is it any wonder that the silent majority of Pakistanis doesn't care about this comedy circus?
If we get rid of Mushy the Dick Traitor, we will have a Paki version of Bonnie & Clyde taking turns looting Pakistan.
Bezamir Bhootni - If she and her husband are that corrupt, is it any wonder that most Pakis are basically ignoring her attempt to hijack the Lawyers' campaign.
Is Perv better than the kleptomaniacs?
Why can't Shortcut Aziz mount his own coup?
At least the guy is somewhat better for Pakistan.
----------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------
Trail of corruption and kickback charges still in wings for opposition leader
David Pallister
Monday November 12, 2007
The Guardian
Hopes for a third term for Benazir Bhutto, twice kicked out of government for corruption and incompetence, have been thrown into turmoil by the emergency rule. But her ambitions ultimately still depend on whether the amnesty on her corruption charges, granted to her last month by the national reconciliation ordinance, will be upheld in the new supreme court.
Bhutto and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari - nicknamed Mr 10% over alleged extortion - faced eight counts of taking tens of millions of dollars in illegal kickbacks. But whatever decision the court arrives at, the couple also have to contend with money laundering proceedings in Switzerland and Spain, and a civil case in London involving an expensive Surrey mansion.
Article continues
------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------
--------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------
As the president's ordinance only deals with offences up to 1999, investigations in Pakistan could continue into allegations that the pair paid about $2m in illegal kickbacks to Saddam Hussein under the oil-for-food programme.
The controversy surrounding Bhutto's financial affairs has been compounded by reports showing she and her family have worldwide assets worth about 90bn Pakistan rupees ($1.5bn). Despite voluminous evidence, some from the British government, the Bhuttos deny all the charges.
The charges
Among the charges in Pakistan are allegations that the Bhuttos skimmed $2m in commissions from a 1990s deal to buy thousands of duty-free Ursus tractors from Poland. The money went into a Swiss bank account. Christine Junod, a Geneva magistrate, says documentary evidence "establishes beyond doubt that these commissions, under the cover of alleged consultancy fees, were meant to remunerate the illicit advantages obtained by Ursus from the Pakistani administration, thanks to the interventions of Asif Zardari".
A second case involves a Dubai-based Pakistani gold bullion dealer who allegedly paid $10m to a Bhutto company in the British Virgin Islands for the exclusive right to import gold, again losing the country millions of dollar in duties. Zardari, who has served six years on corruption charges, is also accused of evading duties on the import of a £55,000 armoured BMW.
A fourth case, involving Swiss banks, is moving towards a trial in Geneva. In this the couple are accused of taking kickbacks for the award of contracts to two Swiss firms employed to stop customs fraud. In 2003 a Swiss magistrate found the couple guilty, sentenced them to six months in prison and ordered them to pay $12m back to the Pakistan government.
The paper trail connecting Benazir Bhutto to the case started with a moment of extravagance. Five years before, she had bought a £117,000 diamond necklace in London; part of that was paid for by one of the Swiss firms identified in the investigation. Lawyers for the Bhuttos challenged the judgment, a move that required the case be reopened. Last month the Swiss authorities said they would go ahead.
Oil-for-food scandal
The authoritative Volker report into the oil-for-food scandal identified the company Petroline FZC as having received oil contracts worth £145m in return for paying illicit surcharges to Iraq of $2m. Pakistan's national accountability bureau has produced documents which show that Bhutto was the company chairwoman. Some of the profits went to firms in Spain, where another criminal investigation into money laundering is still active.
Rockwood House
The Surrey mansion, Rockwood House, was bought in 1995, apparently owned through a chain of firms and trusts, involving addresses in the Isle of Man, Jersey and Liechtenstein. Zardari denied, for eight years, that he was the owner despite instructing a builder with plans for a helipad, nine-hole golf course and polo pony paddock. Crates of valuable artefacts were shipped from Karachi. In 2004, when creditors forced the property into a liquidation sale, the Pakistani government claimed the proceeds. Lawyers for Zardari then appeared, claiming he was the beneficial owner.
The money from the sale is still in the liquidators' bank account, though a high court judge said the Pakistani government had a reasonable case, stating the money came via corruption. The case continues through the courts with Zardari repeatedly claiming to be too ill to mount a rebuttal.
Courtesy, The Guardian, Monday November 12, 2007
Is it any wonder that the silent majority of Pakistanis doesn't care about this comedy circus?
If we get rid of Mushy the Dick Traitor, we will have a Paki version of Bonnie & Clyde taking turns looting Pakistan.
Bezamir Bhootni - If she and her husband are that corrupt, is it any wonder that most Pakis are basically ignoring her attempt to hijack the Lawyers' campaign.
Is Perv better than the kleptomaniacs?
Why can't Shortcut Aziz mount his own coup?
At least the guy is somewhat better for Pakistan.
----------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------
Trail of corruption and kickback charges still in wings for opposition leader
David Pallister
Monday November 12, 2007
The Guardian
Hopes for a third term for Benazir Bhutto, twice kicked out of government for corruption and incompetence, have been thrown into turmoil by the emergency rule. But her ambitions ultimately still depend on whether the amnesty on her corruption charges, granted to her last month by the national reconciliation ordinance, will be upheld in the new supreme court.
Bhutto and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari - nicknamed Mr 10% over alleged extortion - faced eight counts of taking tens of millions of dollars in illegal kickbacks. But whatever decision the court arrives at, the couple also have to contend with money laundering proceedings in Switzerland and Spain, and a civil case in London involving an expensive Surrey mansion.
Article continues
------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------
--------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------
As the president's ordinance only deals with offences up to 1999, investigations in Pakistan could continue into allegations that the pair paid about $2m in illegal kickbacks to Saddam Hussein under the oil-for-food programme.
The controversy surrounding Bhutto's financial affairs has been compounded by reports showing she and her family have worldwide assets worth about 90bn Pakistan rupees ($1.5bn). Despite voluminous evidence, some from the British government, the Bhuttos deny all the charges.
The charges
Among the charges in Pakistan are allegations that the Bhuttos skimmed $2m in commissions from a 1990s deal to buy thousands of duty-free Ursus tractors from Poland. The money went into a Swiss bank account. Christine Junod, a Geneva magistrate, says documentary evidence "establishes beyond doubt that these commissions, under the cover of alleged consultancy fees, were meant to remunerate the illicit advantages obtained by Ursus from the Pakistani administration, thanks to the interventions of Asif Zardari".
A second case involves a Dubai-based Pakistani gold bullion dealer who allegedly paid $10m to a Bhutto company in the British Virgin Islands for the exclusive right to import gold, again losing the country millions of dollar in duties. Zardari, who has served six years on corruption charges, is also accused of evading duties on the import of a £55,000 armoured BMW.
A fourth case, involving Swiss banks, is moving towards a trial in Geneva. In this the couple are accused of taking kickbacks for the award of contracts to two Swiss firms employed to stop customs fraud. In 2003 a Swiss magistrate found the couple guilty, sentenced them to six months in prison and ordered them to pay $12m back to the Pakistan government.
The paper trail connecting Benazir Bhutto to the case started with a moment of extravagance. Five years before, she had bought a £117,000 diamond necklace in London; part of that was paid for by one of the Swiss firms identified in the investigation. Lawyers for the Bhuttos challenged the judgment, a move that required the case be reopened. Last month the Swiss authorities said they would go ahead.
Oil-for-food scandal
The authoritative Volker report into the oil-for-food scandal identified the company Petroline FZC as having received oil contracts worth £145m in return for paying illicit surcharges to Iraq of $2m. Pakistan's national accountability bureau has produced documents which show that Bhutto was the company chairwoman. Some of the profits went to firms in Spain, where another criminal investigation into money laundering is still active.
Rockwood House
The Surrey mansion, Rockwood House, was bought in 1995, apparently owned through a chain of firms and trusts, involving addresses in the Isle of Man, Jersey and Liechtenstein. Zardari denied, for eight years, that he was the owner despite instructing a builder with plans for a helipad, nine-hole golf course and polo pony paddock. Crates of valuable artefacts were shipped from Karachi. In 2004, when creditors forced the property into a liquidation sale, the Pakistani government claimed the proceeds. Lawyers for Zardari then appeared, claiming he was the beneficial owner.
The money from the sale is still in the liquidators' bank account, though a high court judge said the Pakistani government had a reasonable case, stating the money came via corruption. The case continues through the courts with Zardari repeatedly claiming to be too ill to mount a rebuttal.
Courtesy, The Guardian, Monday November 12, 2007
#12 Posted by jayp on November 10, 2007 11:31:45 pm
AS the elite of pakistan are discussing the constittution and the chief justice, the pak army is siezing control from the courts. Now one need not worry about the supreme court, the court martials will take care.
The pathetic pakistanis are discussing checks and balances, wake up, stop the pretenses, pakistan is a jihadic army state.
from dawn of today.
Civilians can be court-martialled : Army Act amended
By Nasir Iqbal
ISLAMABAD, Nov 10: The government on Saturday amended the Army Act of 1952 to give wide-ranging powers to the Army to court-martial civilians.
Under the amended act, the Army can now try civilians on charges ranging from treason, sedition and attack on army personnel to “assaulting the president with intent to compel or restrain the exercise of any lawful power” and “giving statements conducive to public mischief”.
T
The pathetic pakistanis are discussing checks and balances, wake up, stop the pretenses, pakistan is a jihadic army state.
from dawn of today.
Civilians can be court-martialled : Army Act amended
By Nasir Iqbal
ISLAMABAD, Nov 10: The government on Saturday amended the Army Act of 1952 to give wide-ranging powers to the Army to court-martial civilians.
Under the amended act, the Army can now try civilians on charges ranging from treason, sedition and attack on army personnel to “assaulting the president with intent to compel or restrain the exercise of any lawful power” and “giving statements conducive to public mischief”.
T
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- tahir: Re: # 27 Naqsh "Tahir,... Translation of a (Love)
- quin: Asif, thanks for clarifying... Translation of a (Love)
- pakistan3: Re: # 362 tahmed32, It takes... Dhokha and Being a
- tahmed32: and i once had... Dhokha and Being a
- tahmed32: pakistan: ok, you got... Dhokha and Being a
- pakistan3: Re: # 359 unlike you,... Dhokha and Being a
- Naqshbandi: and this link explores... Translation of a (Love)
- tahmed32: further to #257: although... Dhokha and Being a








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content