Search for Origins of Mahayana Buddhism

ekalavya, how time has changed you, yet not changed you.

Take care see around again.....took me sometime to recognise "ekalavya"

Re: # 245 diferences result by personal vested interests and leaving aside reason to decipher the truth!

Re: # 244 Buddha never proclaimed finality for his messages and dharma was nnever used by Buddha himslef . It were followers who developed thee ideas.

Re: # 242 aa rahi hei chah e yusuf say yeh sada daust yehan thuray hein aur bhai bahut!

take care , yea I am new on Chowk , it is my first article.

Re: # 240 a message is a message only to those who wish to see it as such. Once you discard this notion of a message than what is left in it all is the core essence of a process, where by one can attain heaven, the houris, and salvation and moksha. Why burden it with with other extraneous things?

However, I digress, what you say does have a kernel of truth in it.

Fundamental difference is in understanding or defining what is "a process" and what is a "message"? Once done, the rest follows from it. An understanding of this difference, then renders to you no more important, as a separate entity with an authoritative path, than the kaun-kiska next to you. You are then equal in most respects to the other guy. It is a willingness to be able to accept this "truth" which separates the eastern traditions (often prophetless ) to the middle eastern traditions which are prophet led.

What is interesting is why this difference in thought has come about?

mahfari # 243 is what one meant by believers needing to know what comes BEFORE order/process. For dharmic people dharma is enough, just as it was for the Buddha.

And to leave a thought behind, Buddha taught compassion, not love.

Completely different kinds of worlds, these two create.

Re: # 238 what is dharma... teachings of Buddha in Buddhism, teachings of ram and others in Hindu and sme fro jians and others in Indian Philosophy. From where Dharma comes? What are Avatars? Are concepts different and separate from the messangers or the bearers and describers of Dharma? If any one has his or her own Dharma.. then how can concepts develop? Mere perceptions canot result in collective ideas. can they?

mahfari bhai, I have to leave for now. Hopefully we will pick it up some other time.

I don't know if you are new to Chowk....but LOVE is the problem. You know, how an elephant walks, proud and unafraid, through the woundrous jungle, exploring this and that.

Then people dig huge holes for him. The elephant falls. End of exploring. End of story.

LOVE is that hole.

Anyways, later, my dear friend.

Re: # 239 do.nt be so liberal in commenting and I read intellectuals are most liberal, try to be liberal and open minded and he is a person of action and Rumi's message is love . Answer the questiosn or engage a rational debate mere mud slinging does not solve the issue!

dash, see, as unbelievers, we don't believe there is any "message" from anyone going out to anyone else, except if the 'message' is from Prophet Muhammad to people who choose to follow him.

But to be accurate, one must add that is not the believers' view.

mahfari bhai, none of that is remotely true.

Questioning and searching, for instance, is ultimately a waste of time, a path to possible error, entry into grave sin, if you know that you know the truth.

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If you wish to learn anything about Indian thought, one error you must avoid at all costs is sufism and all its variants. Sufism is a great thing, and Islamically it can be shown to be wonderfully, but from the Indian point of view, it is the greatest plague of the mind. It is the AIDS of the mind.

Read Rumi as a poet, read Rumi as a philosopher, but unlesss you are a Muslim (and unless you have already dveloped a very good understanding of Islam) don't read Rumi as a religious leader/scholar.

ekalavya, if I were you I would be careful for fear getting the Dronacharya treatment from our dear interlocutor (mahfari)!

#225 what you said is also at the core of the Gita. Despite the Gita talking of the Ultimate Power, and Krishna showing the Vishnu Roopam to his Partha, it does stress on one thing and one thing only:

God is secondary - primary is your Dharma. Dharma which can be taken as the process of achieving an end. (In this case the process also defines in a sense the means as well. This is in consonance with the Bhramha Sutra, and the various other texts.

Thus is essentially different from the Prophet Based religions (I would disagree with the term Faith-based), where emphasis is put on the Prophet First and then the message. Loose faith in the prophet, the message becomes meaningless. Whereas in the Eastern Traditions, the message is more paramount when compared to the Prophet.

Indeed, this is what has happened in the Christian West (atleast in the Anglo-Saxon world), where the message of Christ has been internalised (much as the Buddhist and other Hindu traditions in India, Buddhist in China etc).

It is this dichotomy which is cause of the troubles: Prophet and Message OR Message? Which is the question?

For example: People like Tahmed32 (and there might be many like him) on Chowk suggest that that it is Message, rather than the former. Unfortunately, this might not be the situation. OTOH you have the likes of Agha Amin (in other articles) who have suggested that neither seems to be holding.

Ultimately - it is the message which is more important (at least for me) - you can call it the process if you like.

Re: # 232 Dear Anil

I remember Rumi ( God Bless HIm) on this occasion . In his Masanvi He says that a king in old times brought an elephant from a far land and he tied it in a big room and then it was for people to go in the room and see the strange animal.One person went he touched his trunk and said oh it is like a python! other went he touched its ears he said Oh it is like a big big fan! third went he touched its legs and said oh it is like a big big pole! and the fourth went and he touched its abdomen area and he said oh it is like a very very big buffalo! they all came together and every one of them said that his description was the correct one and they began to grumble and fight with each other. A wise person asked them why they were fighting they told the reason, Then he said if you all had taken a lamp and seen that in the light then you would have known that the elephant is made up of all these ideas and it si different thing. then your knowledge would have been corect adn based upon truth and reality. So Rumi says taht reason ( Aqal) is that light which helps us to understand the reality. So the jacket size and tailor mood may be different but the use of reason endows us with to share and learn concepts and ideas with equal understanding and sharing... because when every person has his or her own jacket and tailor these things are perceptive , and when they move towards reasoning and thinking then they develop into concepts ... the real thinking process, the unique attribute of human beings. So from perceptions to conception is the process and journey of learning1 is not our time the real time for this journey?

The process of thinking can be studied in any modern book of biology in sections of brain and thinking along with psychology books; especially with reference to process of understanding and thinking from perceptions to conception. Perception is individual , conception is for humanity! perception is for a moment , concepts are for ever as Ghalib said hasti ky fareb mein mat aa jayu asad alim e tamam halqa -e - dam e khayal mein hei

Re: # 233 when ever we want to learn and know about new things then we should think that before we did,nt knew any hting. questioning and trying to search questions and wisdom behind all happenings is the essence of learning!

Re: # 234 well said !

How did we know that we do not know Y , while knowing X? Is.nt it also knowing Y along with X?

oh, that should have been...
"If Anil ji chooses to explain things, you might want to listen to him, for he is a much much better Hindu and Indian than I am."

sorry.