Search for Origins of Mahayana Buddhism

Life moves on and we keepon waiting fro responses which neevr come!

Re: # 294 Where gone?

Re: # 294 We are not discussing my beliefs here. we chnage our minds here if we know new things. Every moment is new moment. Read the previous interacts on hte issue.

mahfari bhai, it is unreasonable to discuss reason unmindful of the audience.

Let me know when you have gathered your 'evidence' and I will be glad to discuss your beliefs with you. Note, I will only take up your beliefs with you, not reason or logic.

Re: # 290 Dear the question is of making sense and forwarding discussion logically, not to pour scorn and to beat about the bush, hte topic was the origins of Mahayana Buddhism, and it was turned out into Muslim bashing by certain vested interest. The answer needs to be relevant, now if some one is bent upon denying rationalI think at least we should be ready to defend our point of view with rationality and reason and not with hatred and scorn!

inquirer, one doesn't have consensus with people calling the Buddha a monotheist. It is enough to point out the lies and then leave such folks free, for they will never change. Neither learning nor change is their objective.

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mahfari bhai, let me know when you have gathered your references outside of the Quran or what some believer in the Quran wrote up for your eternal reading pleasure.

(despite my well-established bigotry, my problem is not with the Quran, but solely with people like you.)

Re: # 191: nasah sahab aadaab after a long time!

scanning the interactors I found your comment! I wish people think like you!!

I would like to draw the attention of all interactors to learn a lesson from your comment!!!

Needless to say I agree with your statement a hundred per cent. But to answer your question at the end needs illumination from you. May be it will bring sense to some!!!!

Eklavya and mahfari:
Both of you have been at each other at cross-purposes for long time. Fundamental objective of interactions should be to make an effort to know what the other person has been saying and get across clearly. Two people may reach a consensus or fail to understand each other. There is really no point in arguing ad infinitum. A hundred interactions are enough!!

Re: # 288 Hom many were discussed without backing up? remember Dr . Tara Chand?

Hide? I am the most biased, bigoted person on the whole planet. I have been compared to Hitler, Mussolini, khomeini (sorry, not khomeini), martini, and lamborghini. Don't let that worry you.

You go ahead and make whatever points you wish to. Next time you attribute ridiculous statments to non-Muslims and outside of the Quran, also see if you are willing to discuss them and can back them up.

Re: # 286 Dear how far you can hide your inner bias?

array bhai, we should not refute the rational relevance of anything, be it the Quran or the Kama Sutra.

Re: # 284 I never said Quran is a final source as a reference point in discussion it is always relevant if supports the fact otherwise it may not be relevant. It may be matter of belief for Muslims.. it should be for them... but for others it is not matter of belief, but others should alos not completely refute its rational relevance whatever the case be.

mahfari bhai, glad you have found the truth, and are saved. Now, please spare the rest of us, unless you can back up your assertions without referring to what is written in the Quran or what this or that Muslim/Communist wrote. Thanks and best regards.

Re: # 282 I remmeber Bikerma Jeet's brother Bherteri Hari's great verses

phul ki patti sy kat sekta hei heray ka jiger

merd-e nadan per kalame narm o nazuk by aser!

Yea when lies are spoken persistently then lies become truth and TRUTh seems lie!

And serious debate becomes game because we are not able to acept different point of view or our personal limited views of thinking!

The tragedy of our times is that there is to much religion... May Allah save us from curse of too much religion!

mahfari #275

Please quit trying to play those childish games.

Inquirer, there is no detente. The gentleman - like ALL other people of his ilk - is lying through his teeth. You will wait forever for the references you need. And even then, nothing you say, or can say, will change his mind. Try it further with mahfari and you will see what I mean. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to play games with mahmood mahmood sort anymore.
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zee boss, I fully understand and agree, in the greater scheme of things. I am even sure mahfari and his types think they are doing humanity a huge favor by repeatedly and brazenly making things up and lying wholesale. And surely those who accept these gentlemen (and women) as normal human beings and their fables as the truth (it is uncomfortable trying to separate truth from fiction) are being helped.

But just personally, I find that approach most repulsive. That's one limit I have not crossed, and never will.

Nor have I seen you do that - deliberately lie, take the course of demonstrable untruth so you may "help the mankind." That along with clear ability to see religion as a whole system (and not the foolish view of religion as something we individually believe in and carry in our pockets), IMO, is your distinguishing characteristic.

Re: # 279

Can you see the problem with this simple set of words! (esp since it is in response to laddu and others below it).

I wonder.

Ekalvya, I would be careful here. It is like Dhritarastra's blind love for Duryodhana - which made him want to hug Bhima after Kurukshetra was over. Fortunately a statue of BHima was sent to him to hug!

Re: # 275 you see Maha_pari you are constrained in your spiritual world view. You need to go beyond theism, atheism, monotheism, and poly theism to understand.

You have taken the first few steps, flattering yes but a first step - like a a baby. Nevertheless, We will make you see the true light - that for you, there is only one way, only one way that of zeemax sahib's way.

Re: # 277 All humanity is blessed in different regards!

Re: # 273

Are you still waiting for it...you have to wait for longer....

Re: # 262

"(I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years!)"

I am "more" blessed than others.......the supremacist propaganda exposes their spiritual bankruptcy....no wonder Islam is so uncertain of it's spiritualism that it has to shout Allahu all the time!!

Re: # 273 It was not specific reference to his ideas, the reference came with reference to Islam's role in India. NAd Dr,. Tara Chand's book is an mazing contribution on the subject.. and eye openere for the bised souls of Sub-Continent!

Re: # 274 Dear I said give a logical and rational answer as to his being not a MONOTHEIST... I quoted the reference, you alos quote any thing from his ideas or any historical reference .

In this Universe only change is constant!

mahfari

India, in order to remain India, must constantly learn anew. And for that to happen, it must remain open to external influences. Ours must be a house with open windows, whence refreshing, revitalzing air constantly comes in. That risk we must take even though occasionally seeps in a great deal of stink, and some unwelcome thieves and luteras.

So from our point of view, only a fool would reject outside influence and acknowledging them. I am thankful that you, a Pakistani and Muslim, reminded us of the need to remain open and welcoming to external ideas and influences.

But that does not make the Buddha a monotheist.

Re: # 270: I knew Dr. Tara Chand personally through my father Pro. O. P. Bhatnagar, both of them were colleagues at History Department, Allahabad University.
Could you please provide more details of Dr. Chand's statement being discussed here?

I am sorry I am not familiar with everyone's viewpoints on the board. But I would like to welcome even perfunctory or even deficient attempts by people of various religions to discover, nay even create common points among the scriptural positions of various religions.

If we make even childish attempts to forge the common points we may succeed in initiating/developing a new paradigm for religious interactions.

No matter how unfactual such detente is the need of the hour.

Re: # 263 Please read dr. Tara Chand's Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, then truth or fallacy of Jogi;s statement will dawn upon you!

Re: # 263 Please read dr. Tara Chand's Influence of Islam on Indian Culture, then truth or fallacy of Jogi;s statement will dawn upon you!

#264 Posted by Eklavya,

Thanks Kaal, however the problem really is not who or what represents evil, but the very understanding whether there is 'evil' in the first place or not.

That would be a bit much for our friends here.

Re: # 264 EXTREMISM IN ALL FORMS IS CONDEMNABLE!

hope the previous illness is not recurring (not that I know much about it - apart from what was briefly discussed here in one or two interacts between you and the famous 32)

I know dash bhai. I am tired, exhausted, unwell, and impatient. Hopefully everything will be back to normal soon. (Thumbs up icon here).

very unlike you eklavya

mahmood mahmood

At another time, I would have taken you apart piece by piece. If god, allah, bhagwan, and hanuman will it, one day I still might. Right now I will only say, go in peace, mahmood mahmood. You will not change. Those of my friends who are waiting for you to understand and learn would unfortunately die first.

It is enough if at least some indic persons understand that 'evil' is not represented by my friend zee (who for all his reputation is ultimately a well-intentioned honest man) but by mahmood mahmood and his types.

Re: # 258 " remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years! "


Now I understand why Ekalavya is margianly upset?

Thank you Maha_Pari for enlightening us. I have learnt a lot today.

Mahmood sahib,

(I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years!)

Verily, the Muslims are truly blessed!!!

Regards

Re: # 260 you failed to take a objective view of reality and compared things mere to argue for the sake of argument! I quoted reference fro his monotheism, have you any evidence to refute this? come out in open!

and try to respect difference of opinion.

Inqurier bhai, I wonder what mahfari's interest is for. It surely is not for understanding things as they are.

I bleed tears of blood being told that The Buddha was a monotheist.

At this rate, some of us will have to start preaching that Prophet Muhammd was a worshipper of shiva, and allah one of the gandharvas of arabia.

That's interest-taking, but not the interest-taking that mahfair bhai would appreciate.

We really need put an end to this kind of crap. There is no problem is staying ignorant. One doesn't need to know everything.

Re: # 214: Eklavya ji, Mahmoud is a muslim so it is creditable that he takes interest in Buddhist things. You are being a bit harsh about the content desired.

Re: # 255 thx. All sages and great minds reach on same conclusions , may be process and techniques are different, but they definitely reach at certain point o unity. I remember a saying of a Hindu Jogi that in Muslims their contact with Supreme Being is usually at that level where we reach after tappasiya of 40 years! So these are paths which lead to Ultimate Reality, the struggle is all for HIM whther by denying him or accepting HIM. He is the ONLY ONE!

Re: # 256 It is not dichotomy, think deeper, they make us to thinbk freely and liberate us from meaningless. It is not dichotomy as now no one claim that follow me as iam of divine Origins, now the message is important, the mental maturity of human beings is complete , now the evolutionary process of thinking is not marred by any NEW DIVINE intervention, it is as vast as our imagination can move,. The question of having some basic axioms as all the knolwdges have, take eample of why a trianglle has 180 degrees a circle 360 degrees ? Why they can not be otherwise. There are always certain axioms in all the fields which take us forward.

As to dichotomy, our knowledge is till that aspect , Dual nature of Particle and Hesienberg's principle of uncertainity is case in point.Freedom flows from understanding our limits.

independence of mind........how interesting.........and yet to become prophetless is like becoming an orphan....an interesting dichotomy

Re: # 237

Mahfari sahib:

I am very familiar with Rumi's elephant story and his quotes. I had found a lot of similarity between his sayings and gita.

He also said in the elephant story we only are limited by our knowledge, as each of these guys who touched the elephant were. Yes, you are correct that is how concepts evolve. I agree.

Re: # 253 Because they dare to be different and independent and it affects the balance of power in Middle east.

Re: # 251 "I remmebr gandhi Ji;s saying taht science is a sharp razor in the hands of baby! So who gave this razor to the baby? now this is least important , now issue is how to save the baby, then discuss who gave it so that it does not happen again"

Precisely....agree with you there.

as an aside tell me, your understanding, why is there a big fracas over Iraq and Iran getting the nukes?

Will check the board out later...see you in a few mos.....

Re: # 250 It was mere one point, further ... with the time we will learn. journey never stops!

Re: # 250 you are trying to mix the channel and mesage as said in modern Communication studies, the level of person who delievers message especially which has moral and real implications becomes very important . I remmebr gandhi Ji;s saying taht science is a sharp razor in the hands of baby! So who gave this razor to the baby? now this is least important , now issue is how to save the baby, then discuss who gave it so that it does not happen again. If we say no it is process let the baby die... then htere is a great great issue which needs to be tackled!

Re: # 248 you need to dig a bit more deeper than that.

Yes, vested interests is a starting point. However, it is the definition of "truth" and the ability to perhaps define "process" and "message" clearly which has resulted in the difference........

ekalavya, how time has changed you, yet not changed you.

Take care see around again.....took me sometime to recognise "ekalavya"

Re: # 245 diferences result by personal vested interests and leaving aside reason to decipher the truth!

Re: # 244 Buddha never proclaimed finality for his messages and dharma was nnever used by Buddha himslef . It were followers who developed thee ideas.

Re: # 242 aa rahi hei chah e yusuf say yeh sada daust yehan thuray hein aur bhai bahut!

take care , yea I am new on Chowk , it is my first article.

Re: # 240 a message is a message only to those who wish to see it as such. Once you discard this notion of a message than what is left in it all is the core essence of a process, where by one can attain heaven, the houris, and salvation and moksha. Why burden it with with other extraneous things?

However, I digress, what you say does have a kernel of truth in it.

Fundamental difference is in understanding or defining what is "a process" and what is a "message"? Once done, the rest follows from it. An understanding of this difference, then renders to you no more important, as a separate entity with an authoritative path, than the kaun-kiska next to you. You are then equal in most respects to the other guy. It is a willingness to be able to accept this "truth" which separates the eastern traditions (often prophetless ) to the middle eastern traditions which are prophet led.

What is interesting is why this difference in thought has come about?

mahfari # 243 is what one meant by believers needing to know what comes BEFORE order/process. For dharmic people dharma is enough, just as it was for the Buddha.

And to leave a thought behind, Buddha taught compassion, not love.

Completely different kinds of worlds, these two create.

Re: # 238 what is dharma... teachings of Buddha in Buddhism, teachings of ram and others in Hindu and sme fro jians and others in Indian Philosophy. From where Dharma comes? What are Avatars? Are concepts different and separate from the messangers or the bearers and describers of Dharma? If any one has his or her own Dharma.. then how can concepts develop? Mere perceptions canot result in collective ideas. can they?

mahfari bhai, I have to leave for now. Hopefully we will pick it up some other time.

I don't know if you are new to Chowk....but LOVE is the problem. You know, how an elephant walks, proud and unafraid, through the woundrous jungle, exploring this and that.

Then people dig huge holes for him. The elephant falls. End of exploring. End of story.

LOVE is that hole.

Anyways, later, my dear friend.

Re: # 239 do.nt be so liberal in commenting and I read intellectuals are most liberal, try to be liberal and open minded and he is a person of action and Rumi's message is love . Answer the questiosn or engage a rational debate mere mud slinging does not solve the issue!

dash, see, as unbelievers, we don't believe there is any "message" from anyone going out to anyone else, except if the 'message' is from Prophet Muhammad to people who choose to follow him.

But to be accurate, one must add that is not the believers' view.

mahfari bhai, none of that is remotely true.

Questioning and searching, for instance, is ultimately a waste of time, a path to possible error, entry into grave sin, if you know that you know the truth.

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If you wish to learn anything about Indian thought, one error you must avoid at all costs is sufism and all its variants. Sufism is a great thing, and Islamically it can be shown to be wonderfully, but from the Indian point of view, it is the greatest plague of the mind. It is the AIDS of the mind.

Read Rumi as a poet, read Rumi as a philosopher, but unlesss you are a Muslim (and unless you have already dveloped a very good understanding of Islam) don't read Rumi as a religious leader/scholar.

ekalavya, if I were you I would be careful for fear getting the Dronacharya treatment from our dear interlocutor (mahfari)!

#225 what you said is also at the core of the Gita. Despite the Gita talking of the Ultimate Power, and Krishna showing the Vishnu Roopam to his Partha, it does stress on one thing and one thing only:

God is secondary - primary is your Dharma. Dharma which can be taken as the process of achieving an end. (In this case the process also defines in a sense the means as well. This is in consonance with the Bhramha Sutra, and the various other texts.

Thus is essentially different from the Prophet Based religions (I would disagree with the term Faith-based), where emphasis is put on the Prophet First and then the message. Loose faith in the prophet, the message becomes meaningless. Whereas in the Eastern Traditions, the message is more paramount when compared to the Prophet.

Indeed, this is what has happened in the Christian West (atleast in the Anglo-Saxon world), where the message of Christ has been internalised (much as the Buddhist and other Hindu traditions in India, Buddhist in China etc).

It is this dichotomy which is cause of the troubles: Prophet and Message OR Message? Which is the question?

For example: People like Tahmed32 (and there might be many like him) on Chowk suggest that that it is Message, rather than the former. Unfortunately, this might not be the situation. OTOH you have the likes of Agha Amin (in other articles) who have suggested that neither seems to be holding.

Ultimately - it is the message which is more important (at least for me) - you can call it the process if you like.

Re: # 232 Dear Anil

I remember Rumi ( God Bless HIm) on this occasion . In his Masanvi He says that a king in old times brought an elephant from a far land and he tied it in a big room and then it was for people to go in the room and see the strange animal.One person went he touched his trunk and said oh it is like a python! other went he touched its ears he said Oh it is like a big big fan! third went he touched its legs and said oh it is like a big big pole! and the fourth went and he touched its abdomen area and he said oh it is like a very very big buffalo! they all came together and every one of them said that his description was the correct one and they began to grumble and fight with each other. A wise person asked them why they were fighting they told the reason, Then he said if you all had taken a lamp and seen that in the light then you would have known that the elephant is made up of all these ideas and it si different thing. then your knowledge would have been corect adn based upon truth and reality. So Rumi says taht reason ( Aqal) is that light which helps us to understand the reality. So the jacket size and tailor mood may be different but the use of reason endows us with to share and learn concepts and ideas with equal understanding and sharing... because when every person has his or her own jacket and tailor these things are perceptive , and when they move towards reasoning and thinking then they develop into concepts ... the real thinking process, the unique attribute of human beings. So from perceptions to conception is the process and journey of learning1 is not our time the real time for this journey?

The process of thinking can be studied in any modern book of biology in sections of brain and thinking along with psychology books; especially with reference to process of understanding and thinking from perceptions to conception. Perception is individual , conception is for humanity! perception is for a moment , concepts are for ever as Ghalib said hasti ky fareb mein mat aa jayu asad alim e tamam halqa -e - dam e khayal mein hei

Re: # 233 when ever we want to learn and know about new things then we should think that before we did,nt knew any hting. questioning and trying to search questions and wisdom behind all happenings is the essence of learning!

Re: # 234 well said !

How did we know that we do not know Y , while knowing X? Is.nt it also knowing Y along with X?

oh, that should have been...
"If Anil ji chooses to explain things, you might want to listen to him, for he is a much much better Hindu and Indian than I am."

sorry.

Well, that's good. But mere bhai, infinite learning is not possible. One may imagine for instance, that if one knows X, one may not know Y. So learning and unlearning have to work together, in tandem. A lot of what we call science too works that way.

When it comes to Islam (and Muslims) and Indian thought (and Indians), there can be no learning without unlearning a great deal first.

IF that kind of stuff interests you, one day we can definitely discuss it. Thanks.
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By the way, if Anil ji chooses to explain things, he is a much much better Hindu and Indian than I am. :)

Re: # 226

mahfari sahib:

"Re: # 225 then why in Bhagwat Geeta there is mention of an all embracing power?"

Dharma the way it is mentioned in Geeta and elsewhere is a concept. In reality it may be viewed to translate into a Customized Jacket that envelops you or you wear.

The jacket defines it concept, but is different for each wearer. Your size, color you prefer, fabric you want etc. etc. But still it is a jacket. Over a period of time, many tailors of Dharma jacket came and tried to create sizes people can fit in, much like you can buy a jacket in say Macy's.

Based on such a concept Dharma, many fundamentalist Hindus believe that even Islam fits into Hindu Dharma, as it is one of the possible customized jacket that can envelop an individual.

For obvious reason, according to their views, Islam has stricter rules, size of a customized jacket.

Dharma has very few rules / laws, unlike Islam, to define what can be called a jacket, and no pants. Conflict with these fundamentalist hindus come, when they want to reject the community oriented laws and rules in Islam.

Dharma is all about indivdual freedom and discipline (truth, soul(formless energy), death and life cycle(form and substance), karma etc.). Each of these fundamental concepts, Krishna has defined to be himself to become (except for Karma). He has used terms like - "I am truth, I am death, I am formless, I can take form etc. etc." Other than these fundamental concepts little else defines the concept of this customizable Dharma jacket.

Many humans indeed wear a real jacket and envelope themselves in a religion - a set of belief system. They cannot wear the concept. Hence you see many Hindu jackets, and many Hindu tailors.

Re: # 230 please elaborate these points. We all are always learning new realities evry moment.

mahfari, yes, that is a basic fault of mine. I just know. And what I don't know, I humbly try to learn. Sorry about that.

Re: # 227 Please also read interact 216

Re: # 227 How easily you are pronouncing upon the bases of disciples of Buddha's; that he did not believe in God. where is evidence in Buddha;s teachings?

mahfari bhai, remember, I mentioned the Indian approach earlier: there were (and continue to be) some very basic common Indian ideas. On top of that, different teachers built different approaches.

The idea that the Ultimate Reality (or Power) is unknown and unknowable is a basic idea. The Geeta belongs to a different tradition than does the Buddha.

The Geeta does try to concern itself with that Ultimate Power or Reality, not the Buddha. The Buddha represented a long line of Indian thinkers who simply ignored that Reality or Realities. These traditions were entirely 'HUMAN.'

What may be more useful to you, the Geeta has more in common with Islam (although that commonality too would be an absurdity, all in itself), than does the Buddha.

Re: # 225 then why in Bhagwat Geeta there is mention of an all embracing power?

tahmedji, that's quite right. That's the name we got by luck and default, since people of the indus, for whatever reasons, did not think it necessary to press a claim. :)

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Dash bhai, no, one doesn't need them. That's the whole thing of the dharma - it is about order, right process, right human ends, not really what lies behind or before human processes, order etc.

But dash bhai, that is a very very non-faith based view. To us Easterners - Indians, chinese etc - that is an obvious - almost self-evident - truth, but faith-based thinkers would (and should) reject that out of hand. They need a creator who sets the process going. Without such a creator (or such creators), they expect nothing but complete chaos (because they would not see any justification for any specific order, or any specific process).

Eklavya: "ancient India" was areas forming Pakistan - the term being derived from the river indus, these areas being settled for thousands of years before mankind moved further east to what is now india. but you can use the name - long before the name hollywood had been copied to become bollywood, the indus valley had been copied to become india. :-)

#221 Posted by Eklavya on December 11, 2007 5:31:16 am
majumdar, yes. The Buddha was concerned about the PROCESS of living, not what gods upstairs or devils below the earth were doing.

A quick question: once you understand the process, do you really need the devils(God) upstairs or Hades downstairs?

Once you understand the process of Rain Creation damendif you will believe in the rain_god (or that God created Rain)

(or maybe I am wrong)

Re: # 221Dear all the humanity is our heritage and do,nt be desperate! wisdom is not any one's personal property! There is saying of our Holy prophet ( peace be upon him) that wisdom is lost property of Muslims , so get it from where ever you can get it. and another saying Go to China for seach of knowledge. how can you restrict the beuty to one tradition only? TRUTH is not heritage of only one person!

His ideas were inspired by certain states of the process, it does not mean that he ignored all other things! If he did,nt bother about devils and gods ... may be fro the sake of discussion... but his followers did and they still do... I think that realy matters. does not it?

majumdar, yes. The Buddha was concerned about the PROCESS of living, not what gods upstairs or devils below the earth were doing.

mahfari bhai, please ignore me. I just don't have the heart to discuss this with you.

If you would care, I would advise you stay with reading the Quran and understanding Islam. There is enough beauty and goodness within that tradition. Leave the rest. Particularly anything to do with ancient India. That's not for you.

Re: # 214 Let us try to separate trash from reality1

Re: # 215 the followers of Buddha have this idea and some even deny its existance even, but as to Buddha;s ideas refer to interact 216.

differentiation of origination of ideas is neccassary to understand evolution of ideas... especially in the case of Leader and their followers to make things clear and of rigth perspective.

Re: # 214 To Question of Monotheism of Buddha refer to interact 216.

As to Nihayana and Hinayana refer to my interact previously submitted.

As to difference of Mahayana and Hinayana/nihayana . the difference was that old school of Buddhism believed in only one Buddha who atatined nirvana and who will ensure the of his followers. As to origins of Mahayana it was aimed at atatining Buddhahood and Nirvana by any one who could follow the teachings of Buddha and it used idols of Buddha to attain thta ideal. If you have differnet undestanding please let us discuss, do not self praise yourself without sharing the information and knowledge(if any) you have !
Let us learn mutually and explore the ideas, come present ideas and then let us share them and KNOWLEDGE AND IDEAS are not heritage of any single race, ethnicity or creed. Many people ,, rather majority do not belive in Brahmanism of thought and ideas!

come in open let us discuss, and do not hide ignorance under the garb of name calling!

Re: # 211 Thx fro appreciation , Buddha's messge has many diverse acets. I hope to cover thoe in any other article .
Regards.

Re: # 212 Dear in India for more than 7 centuries Persian was official language and language of intellectuals, and whole literature of more than 100 years is in Persian, Arabic and Urdu . The present Hindi was developed by British in 1800 in Fort William college Calcutta.

And Futuh-Al Baldan is not Holy Quran ... it is a book of history written in 8th/9th Century please read the interact carefully.

And you are right Holy Quran is not a proof for non.Muslims, even Holy Quran does not claim it for muslims to blindly accept its facts, it asks to use mind and heart!

historical sources are correct till proven wrong or when all the evidences prove the facts contrary to the position stated ... so refute the evidence . Do,nt misunderstand it with sacred Text... sacredness is only fro followers not for others, but it does not mean that it can be totally ignored because we differ with the ideas of persons who believe in it.

As to His Monotheist , I remember late Ishfaque Ahmed one of great intellectuals of Pakistan had Buddha's statutes in his drawing room , the young people who went to meet him were amazed and asked why you being a Sufi ;have placed idols in your house?

Ishfaque Sahib smiled and said One person asked Buddha Do you believe in Allah , he was lost in thought and reamined silent... the questioner concluded Buddha did not believe in God ! why not His silence was taken as YES instead of NO? and where Buddha explicitly denies existance of ALLAH/GOD? Have you any evidence and text from his preachings?

I have quoted the oldest source to say he believd in ALLAH? So give evidence , do not resort to name calling and false superiority of knowledge (without its evidence)to refute the rational argument. USe rational, do not resort to bias!

Kaal bhai,

My understanding of Buddhism is that it is indifferent to the existence of Gods- essentially that Man's job is to get salvation (nirvana) it is immaterial whether God (one or many) exists or not. Is this right?

Regards

Inquirer bhai, let's not puff up the poor fellow. The pictures are good, and there may be some value in given descriptions of sculptures, but it is hard to imagine a person peddling worse trash everytime the author begins to speak of Buddhism itself.

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Buddha believed in monotheism.

Hinayan (spelled as nahayana - the boat of the author's ablutions) meant that the Buddha would personally take people to nirvana.

Can any sane person even read further?

Verily, people should NOT try to understand things that are so different from anything they have seen or heard. It's not the author's fault that he is talking nonsense.

Very interesting article, particularly the summation of Hinayan and Mahayan. I wish the article had the analytical vs. descritive depth. This notwithstanding avery enjoyable snippet.

"And fro Buddha the oldest reference available is Futuh- Al Baldan of Baladhuri 8th century which mentions that He was a monotheist."

mahfari bhai, please remind me to commit suicide before I discuss religion with you. I might just take the plunge.


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mere baap, please understand. What is written or said in the Quran is no proof for a non-Muslim. Hope you understand that that statement is made most respectfully.

Thank you very much author for this wonderful article and excellent historical photographs.

To me Buddhism is the most evolved and most mature of all the Philosophies, which human minds could create in the realms of religions and ideologies.

It talks about self analysis, self responsibility and self discovery rather than "pretending" to be doing good things in order to please God or "hypocritically" not hurting others due to fear of police or hell fire.

Re: # 208 Diversity was always here, we just needed to look for it! and all are students here and perhaps teachers also! So let us keep learning and teaching also!

Re: # 207 In holy Quran it is mentioned that Allah did not spare any village and town of earth where he did not send His prophets peace be upon them. And fro Buddha the oldest reference available is Futuh- Al Baldan of Baladhuri 8th century which mentions that He was a monotheist , and later His followers turned Him into an idol! He never practiced or preached this ! The theme of this article as art and sculpture in Buddhism was practiced in Gandhara more than 400 years after Buddha's departure from this mortal world!


and as far as Muhammad peace be upon him is concerned HE peace be upon hm is unique, He was the Last of the Prophets peace be upon them and he perfected the message of Allah as now Human intellect is able enough to decide its own course , now no need for divine guidance after HIm peace eb upon.

Is there idolatory when we read portions of Bhegwat Gita?


and as far as Sufism is concerned , this path wil remain open till last day , and me being Sufi.... hanuz Delhi dur asat and it is not my prediliction till now as per future Allah knows better!

It is a bit funny being taught the lesson of diversity here. LOL

mahfari bhai, one can have no problem accepting your understanding/memory of what Caliph Ali said (assuming you later don't turn out to be a man of sufi predilections), but please don't tell us that there were prophets like Prophet Muhammad in India.

Or, may be, there were, and we were just too stupid or too evil to notice.

Re: # 203

it is not question of persons , every civilization has its contribution to human civilization.

There were also Prophets peace be upon them in India also. it are the followers of those Prophets peace be upon them who changed theri message and for personal purpose change the religious edicts and message.

Human creativity is not heritage of any one person or area!

In the end all human beings are creted from Adam and Eve --- blessings be upon them.

There is saying of Caliph Ali ( God Bless him) that do,nt say who is saying, see what he is saying! Solet us try as a human beings to understand the realities and truths hidden deep beneath to strive for new horizons!

Things move and only change is constant in this universe!

Re: # 202

Dear Santani

Northern Pakistan is a new name for the area. It was never named as part of India , and who gave India its present name? Muslims... read Al-Beruni!

chinese called Gandhara area as Xi Tian Western Paradise and the remaining India in ancient times as Du Shen ( du is word for drugs and virus in Chinese and Shen is for Body... it was named due to sultry weather of India (See Travels of Xuan Zhuang)

This phobia for all being Hindus was the driving force which divided India , when congress failed to accept cabinet Mission Plan.

Alas desire for imaginary wolrds is a perpetual illusion in human history.

Re: # 202 Dear Santani
why do you want to prove always that diversity is not possible?

and why it is important to differ by naming your opponents?

Why India takes pride in Taj Mahal?


Why there is problem in accepting the reality of Indai being multi-lingual, multi religious, and multi-idea country?

Why to insist on imposing the Brahmanical interpretation of religion on India?

Pakistan is not a term denoting purity or for the followers of Islam only. Its name has been taken from geographical areas comprising the land where Muslims abound and fortunately or unfortuantely these are areas where Buddhism in originality flourished.


Why to amalgamaate South Indian and North Indian ideas of religion?

India was never a single religious entity! Was it?

sanatani, there must be something deeply wrong with Hindus and Hinduism if they have never been able to and still cannot produce a Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and/or a Pius the XI (no comparison between the two is intended or implied, directly or indirectly, lest different people be upset for different reasons).

IMHO, there is no schizo ism in writing mecca not mohenjodaro at one moment and claiming Bhagwan Budh the next. It's the two aspects of the same political domination.

Schizo ism resides in liberal Hinduism that insists that both Prophet Muhammad and Pius the XI (again no similarity is intended) be treated just like all other religious leaders, yet quickly and blindly denounces any effort to promote leaders like these two great men.

This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon in "Northern Pakistan".

Are trying to be a joker. How is it Norther Pak when Pak did not exist at that time. Even if we acept Pak came into being when the first Sindhi accepted Islam then also what happened in "Northern Pakistan" (which was actually Northern India at that point of time) predates your land of the pure by anywhere from 1200-2000 years so it is hardly Pakistan which had this wonderful civilization but India.

At best you could say This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon of India which now resides in Northern Pakistan. (And repeat that ad nauseaum in all your posts).

Also on what basis are you Schizos now claiming affinity with Bhagwan Budh esp your other compatriots have writtens gems like Mecca not Mohenjodaro and that clown Aitzaz Hasan talking about Indic and Gangetic Civilisations.

The Budh started in Bihar (firmly Gangetic) and then reached Trans Oxus that takes care of the Indus as also the same being part of India.

You know where we lost:

1) Hindu society could not give an apporpriate theological response to Islam (in the fact it did not bother to refute Islam's claim of being a religion when it actually is a murderous and schizophrenic political philosophy).

2) It stopped caring for its sons and daughters who had been forced to convert and became more inward looking.

3) No Shankracharya donned the role of Pius the XI and no Prince became Charles Martel

Sanatani

mahfari bhai

I will make just one comment on this because I don't believe Hindus and Muslims can communicate on many fundamental matters (history being one of them) unless they first create a symmetrical language. Unfortunately, thanks to Hindu liberals that seems to be an impossibility for now. And, to be accurate, one must include Hindu communists among Muslims, despite Muslim's justifiable contempt for communists - communism being a childish form of Islam. Communism is a great folly but without Allah it gets downright ridiculous and hopeless.

-----------

Here is how it goes, and I had tried to explain it once to aasif bhai as well, unsuccessfully I am sure.

The way things worked in India, there were always fierce debates and controversies in India on matters of religion, spirituality etc. There were many common ideas popular among the masses, but on top of those ideas were built different and varying traditions and philosophies by innumerable different teachers (not prophets - there is a HUGE difference between the two concepts that cannot be in any way overlooked).

ALL these teachers presented their own particular points of view, and constantly and quite openly criticized some or all of others.

Criticism of RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHIES by those who disagreed with them was a FUNDAMENTAL religious trait and tradition in Pre-Nehru India.

Just like all others, Buddhists criticised Brahmins and Brahmins criticized Buddhists. Where Buddhists grew in numbers, brahmins lost some of their power (although not always, because none of the Indian traditions, not Buddhism even, were totally exclusivist, and an Indian could very easily pay respects to the Buddha AND to the Brahmins (assuming the latter were not going around raping young women. Examples abound of many kings, including the great Kanishka, following that very Indian tradition).

So it is quite possible that a king like shashank (and I have no idea who he was, for he was no great name like the Kanishka) went and demolished some stupas and persecuted Buddhists IF there was poliitical rivalry. This much Shashank would surely have done even if many of his own people, or even his family, held the Buddha or the Buddhists in great regard.

So if you take a situation wherein large numbers of lay people and kings and queens and nobles in India respected buddhists and revered the Buddha as their own, and some of them destroyed Buddhist symbols and suppressed Buddhist leaders (particularly if you could see a political conflict behind such acts), then you cannot conclude that non-Buddhist Indians ("Hindus" to Muslims and communists) went around destroying Buddhism and slaughtering Buddhists.

That would be as stupid as arguing that M. Ghaznavi had any religious inspiration for his religious generosities toward Indians and their religious places had he been a worshipper of the Shiva himself.

----------------

It is true that hostility of many brahmins was perhaps one of the major causes of decline in Buddhism. They actively promoted ideologies that went against the grain of Buddhism.

As a brahmin (born, at least) who considers the Buddha as the ultimate in goodness, and as one of the best and brightest humans ever born anywhere, I can tell you, I do not, quite humbly, think Buddhism is a complete religion. It did not (and does not) know how to deal with aggressive active evil. In eschewing war and violence and promoting ONLY goodness it made a 'mistake' that a more natural religion like Islam would NEVER EVER make (In fact no prophet-oriented religion can ever be remotely like Buddhism).

As such Buddhism weakened itself considerably. Both politically and philosophically. And evolution is a cruel beast. It eats the softest first. That is a profound tragedy for those who insist of associating goodness with softness.

Re: # 194 Dear Kamath I hope that you will read it again and let me know if the rrecird has been set straight or not! As to about others questions , let us wait and see!

Thx for the comments.

Re: # 198notes did,nt come again sorry ! I paste them again.
1.It has issue of nomenclature as some assert that it is Hinayana and some name it as Nihayana
2.See the oxford companion to Indian Art
3. I have seen the various phases of these stories depicted in sculpture at various levels and in different phases in Museums of Peshawar, Taxila and Lahore. This is an amazing experience and it also sheds light on the status of women in these areas and in Buddhist traditional philosophy.
4. Murals of dun Huang are the reality of this fact.
5.Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing
6. Many narrative accounts of Buddhism’s decline and eventual disappearance from the land of its faith have been focused on Buddhism’s relations with Hinduism or Brahmanism. Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The Saivite king, Shashanka, invariably appears in such histories as a ferocious oppressor of the Buddhists, though the single original source for all subsequent narratives about Shashanka’s ruinous conduct towards Buddhists remains Hsuan Tsang. Shashanka is reported to have destroyed the Bodhi tree and ordered the destruction of Buddhist images. Hindu nationalists appear to think that many Muslim monuments were once Hindu temples, but partisans of Buddhism are inclined to the view that Hindu temples were often built on the site of Buddhist shrines.
Buddhism’s Disappearance from India By Vinay Lal
7. Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing

8. This difference is still valid and it is evident from the official policy of Dalai Lama and Chinese Government on the issue.

again stressed it deals about origins of Mahayana School of Buddhism

Re: # 194Gandhara art, sculpture development, evolution of Mahayana School of Buddhism

The land of Pakistan is blessed with the vast treasure troves of the world and one of the most important treasures is the glorious civilization of Buddhism flourishing in the North Western areas of Pakistan. The mountains of these areas are witness to one of the highly creative ideology springing from Buddha’s teachings taking refuge in the mountains from Karakorum in Chilas to Pir Panjal Mountains near Taxila.
The Buddhism flourished in these regions after the Ashoka embraced Buddhism after the war of Kalinga. There was one school called Nihayana,(it is also called Hinayana) the smaller ferry which believed that the great Buddha will take all the followers to Nirvana . But as it is a norm for many religions of antiquity, the followers of Buddha in Pushklavati and Takshala valley developed the sculpture to adjust with the demands of basic philosophy of Mahayana.

These valleys saw the growth of Buddhism from traditional view of Nirvana to more liberal expression of personal element of involvement in a spiritual way.

These valleys saw the emergence of Mahayana school of Buddhism which is the larger ferry and it said that there was possibility for many persons to get Nirvana and reach up to Buddha hood, this idea introduced the development of sculpture and taking guidance from the Maha Buddha called Sakaymuni in Chinese and Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

This gradually resulted in development of Gandhara Sculpture based upon the Pali literature of Buddhism based upon Tri Jatakas and Tri Patakas (three baskets, and three bags respectively). This literature is the story of Mahavera Buddha in different phases of life and in this the natural gift of depicting the figures and paintings of the situation developed and this opened the gate for idols and sculptures of a marvelous beauty, proportion and originality in its execution and imagination.

The bronze sculpture of Gandhara is the most original and creative phenomenon which was rage in the first centuries of first millennium. This is the unique aspect of the Buddhist religious pantheon in Northern Pakistan as in Southern India the oldest Buddhist temples of 5th century AD have no sculpture rather they have the lotus flower and its depiction as the Nirvana aspect of Mahavera.

The sculpture of Gandhara has variety of the ideas based upon Jatakas and Patakas and it describes the whole story of Gautama’s life from his palace to the place of his Nirvana under a peepal tree. The tree of peepal and lotus have sacred valuation in the Buddhist tradition as they are considered to be linked with the life of Gautama in inseparable manner at the most crucial stages of his spiritual evolution and transformation. This aspect can be studied in detail in the sculpture tablets and other artifacts of Gandhara in Peshawar Museum, Taxila Museum, Lahore Museum, and other places where the Gandhara art is preserved.

The Gandhara art is basically the expression of Mahayana school of thought which later on traveled from Swat, Kashmir through the famous Silk Road to Xin Jiang in China.

The sculpture which traveled from Pakistan to China has drastically changed especially in its material and shape. The most amazing difference is between physique, in China the Buddha has healthy, Chinese and localized features and with more stress on the face and expression whereas in Gandhara art the whole bodily expression and fasting of Buddha is explained in more detail and personalized spiritual expression.
This is at its peak in the Fasting Buddha , in the custody of Lahore Museum. See below figure 5 ,the fasting Buddha which is the representative art of Gandhara . This shows the control of artistic expression and observation of human physical situation in the ultimate state of Nirvana . This is blend and mosaic of physical endurance and bliss of Nirvana in a multidimensional , passionate way. This sculpture captures the strength, depth, variety, uniqueness and individuality of spiritual elation and awakening in pinnacle of Buddhist journey of spirit.

The varieties of Buddha along with Stupas are expressions of richness of Buddhist legacy in Pakistan. The art of Gandhara is innovative, local and as asserted by many western scholar that the technique is inspired by Greek is not borne by facts, as to its originality of idea and usage of bronze as basic material in production of sculpture.

The imagination, development and evolution of Gandhara art is interwoven with the advent of Mahayana school in Buddhism which flourished in early centuries in the Pushklavati and Takshala valleys in early millennium.

The journey of Jatakas and Patakas from Pakistan to China is a cultural assimilation between the areas of Pakistan and China. This was the most important cultural, historical and deep religious exchange in the history of this area.

The translation of Buddhist literature has saved the treasures of Buddhist tradition to posterity, which later on traveled to Japan , Korea, Thailand and other regions of Far East . It also enriched the vocabulary of Chinese and developed a whole new religious terminology. The Silk Road has its trade value but the journey of Jatakas and Patakas to China is the most enduring legacy of the glorious mountains.

The icon of this cultural transmission is Xuan Zhuang, the Buddhist monk who traveled in the last stages of Gandhara Civilization, which had been destroyed by zealot Hindu resurgence under the Guptas (325-497 AD).

But the literature of Buddhism was translated by him in the Tang dynasty and in Tang dynasty of China the Buddhism was adopted by elites of China. It was a tang Princess who took the Buddhist religion to Tibet. In Tibet the Buddhism Mahayana developed its own attributes and Lamas were the practitioners of this Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism. In Tibet it developed its own contours of Lama Buddhism with Shambhala at its forefront. In Chinese mainland it has its own attributes differing with Tibetan Buddhism due to political and cultural differences.
The Mahayana is linked with Gandhara and its evolution is depicted in art, Patakas and Jatakas with help of figurative art in creative way and manner. This association is the basic idea which helps us to appreciate and understand the growth and flourishing of sculpture and related artifacts in Gandhara.
The dominant theme was by the different poses, postures of Buddha. T his is unique in the individualistic respect of Buddha as there is no other person depicted except in subdued manner. (See figure 4, 1)

The theme of meditation is developed in a very relaxed, calm, individualistic way in Gandhara art as shown in figure 7. These sculptures show the spiritual elation and calmness in a refined and passionate manner with deep peace on the face of Buddha. These sculptures show the personal devotional attitude of artisans of Gandhara.

It has issue of nomenclature as some assert that it is Hinayana and some name it as Nihayana
See the oxford companion to Indian Art
I have seen the various phases of these stories depicted in sculpture at various levels and in different phases in Museums of Peshawar, Taxila and Lahore. This is an amazing experience and it also sheds light on the status of women in these areas and in Buddhist traditional philosophy.
Murals of dun Huang are the reality of this fact.
Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing
Many narrative accounts of Buddhism’s decline and eventual disappearance from the land of its faith have been focused on Buddhism’s relations with Hinduism or Brahmanism. Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The Saivite king, Shashanka, invariably appears in such histories as a ferocious oppressor of the Buddhists, though the single original source for all subsequent narratives about Shashanka’s ruinous conduct towards Buddhists remains Hsuan Tsang. Shashanka is reported to have destroyed the Bodhi tree and ordered the destruction of Buddhist images. Hindu nationalists appear to think that many Muslim monuments were once Hindu temples, but partisans of Buddhism are inclined to the view that Hindu temples were often built on the site of Buddhist shrines.
Buddhism’s Disappearance from India By Vinay Lal
Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing

This difference is still valid and it is evident from the official policy of Dalai Lama and Chinese Government on the issue.



Bibliography

1. Cultural flow Between China and Outside World Throughout History By Shen Fuwei foreign Language Press Beijing.
2. Different Issues of History Magazine Historical Society of Pakistan Karachi.
3. Pakisatn Ki Tarekh (URDU) By Rashid Akhter Nadvi
4. Pakistan Ki Tarekh (URDU) Volume.1 Yahya Amjad
5. Taxila By Dr. Hasan Dani
6. Oxford Histroy of Indian Art
7. Indian History V.A Smith Oxford University Press
8. The wonder that was India A.L Basham
9. Futuh-al- Baldan (URDU) By Baladhuri
10. Tarekh-e Mewat (URDU) By Habib-ur Rehman
11. History of India as Told by its own Historians Ed. Elliot & Dowson
12. Oxford Companion to Archeology
13. Travels of Xuan Zhuang

It is with notes, small bibliography and some editing, and it is about Origins of Buddhism 's Mahayana school and other issues we will talk later insha allah!

Re: # 194 Read it carefully, its topic was not given by me, but by editors, and I have e-mailed them to change its topic. I am not so naive to consider origins of Buddhism to be lying in present day Pakistan!
It refers to the bases of origins of Mahayana Buddhism in south Asia.

about notes and bibliography you are right. I am referring these in another interact now.

In fact, some of us may recall, a few of us had briefly discussed how Buddhism represented the most developed form of an important and vibrant tradition going back to Bhagwan Kapila (and his pithy sutra), or even the Sankhya school. Regards.

In general, though, you would expect, most non-Indian thought to imagine as if Buddhism appeared on Indian soil out of nowhere. That's natural thinking among the "revelationary" school, wherein some fellow sitting upstairs supposedly sends down knowledge to us ignorants in discrete, separate, and quite rare spurts.

kamath, there were some discussions on unplugged about what Hinduism is, and not sure, what people there finally decided (if anything), but IMHO, there was no separate religion known as Hinduism before Islamic thinking came to India. The Buddha's path was just one of a myriad Indian paths, just like the one preached by Bhagwan Mahavir.

So speaking of 'Hinduism' vesus 'Buddhism' in a non-Islamic/non-semitic sense seems illogical. Would that be wrong?

Dear Mahmood:

Perhaps you should read few more good books on the history of Buddhism and ancient India before you attempt writing a serious article in a paper. It would be nice.

First. origins of Buddhism is not in prsent day Pakistan, but is in Bihar - a province of India-. That is where Buddha preached and travelled all his life. That is where the Buddhism spread all across Indian subcontinent and then onwards to other Asian countries.

Second. It is erroneous to say Buddhist civillization !. Buddhism is a great world religion and has been part of Indian civillization. In asia there are others, like Persian,Chinese which are major ones.

BTW Buddhism did not start as an independent religion but as an off shoot of another ancient Faith that is Hinduism.

It would be very nice - a budding writer -kindly to quote some references next time whenever you attempt to write something serious. Anyway it is good start so far.Wa Salaaam.

Kamath

Re: # 191 The issue of reputation or blashphemy with reference to Muhamamd peace be upon him is the most complicated issue and it is as old as the advent of Muslims.

The violence is not provoked by all of the times by Muslims, if you know that by committing oneself to ant-semitism, you are bound to be be punished? then why certain people want it to happen? Is it also an effort to save the reputation of the victims of Holocaust?

And as far as madness aimed at Holy prophet peace be upon him and other Prophets Peace be upon them is concerned, it is an issue of public order and it has been dealt as this in history.

the example from Muslim spain will be pertinent when christian zealots began to coem in the squares and they began to (GOd Forbid) throw theri stupidities and intentional hatred against Prophet peace be upon him. The issue was treated as solitary issue and the person was repraminded, but the situation grew violent, when a beautiufl woman announced that she will marry the saviours and martyrs who will do such insane act and embrace the ensuing punishment by authorities... which was Muslim at that time! The isue got very very tense and their were riots and despite the restrain of Judiciary , they have to resort to death peanlty when Muslims raised hue and cry. Over 20 incidents like thsi happened and then the auhtorities asked the Church to intervene and stop this non-sense and this useles process was stopped after sending over 20 persons to hteri eternal abode. But it showed that how intense the religious conflit can become, and since then there have been intermittent, some times continuous instances to slander the person of Holy Prophet peace be upon him. In India matter of Ghazi ilam Din Shaheed is case in point.(See various sources of Histroy books in this regard)


it is never prescribed as compulsory to apply death penalty, as it depends upon the seriousnes of the issue and related circumstances and it si the extreme level punishment and it seems sever as to the Modern codification of law and legal punishments. As in past it was treated as Tazir not as Hadd and it is still tazir against Hadd which is compulsory and mentioned in Holy Quran and usually it has explicit punishments like adultery, murder, dacoity, etc. But in this case the bhaviour from both sides is based upon frenzy and extremism, no doubt!

But the question is when a person commits anti-Semitic rhetoric , he is condemned legally and morally and in reality in west( see the case of recent Historian's issue). Then why they raise too much hue nd cry when other societies want ti implement theri rules and regulations?

it isbias and naked bias , nothing else! It becomes more provocative when it is used as a systematic, sustained, intentional element of insult and stuborrness against any faiht or people. It is legalized morality and it is necassary for the balnace of society to keep the law and order. And why it is neccasary to show liberalism by insulting intentionally beliefs and ideas of certain people publically and unwantonly? the mystery of this question has key to understand this issue! any other question?

For us Muslims the word should be PBUU (peace be upon us) whenever and whereever we mention the word Muslim -- we can surely live with that.

If I may jump in the fray about PBUH -- when I was in elementary school it was the time when we were coming out of the age of flowery language of "Alqab" -- a mile long of baroque ornamental adjectives to the addressee before coming to the point of the letter.

We were told to avoid that old Durbari language for letter writing -- and address the person with their names and may be a "Janab" here and there -- the practice did not go completely out of fashion -- even the British loved to hear from every Indian Gunga Din -- "your most obedient servant" at the end of the letter.

It is time to do the same to PBUH. The use of PBUH is a drag for two reasons -- it interrupts the flow of thought -- it is redundant since the prophets are already in very much peace -- they are definitely not in turmoil -- (their Umma may be) -- that their followers have to wish them peace at every mention of their names.

Mohammed never claimed to be anybody different than a human being -- yet some of us Muslims would like to worship him even more than God -- and Buddha whose insight 2500 years ago saw no place for God in Buddhism's highly ethical culture -- instead is worshipped like a god by his followers -- perhaps there is a worship gene in all man/womankind that compels us to bow our heads to even rats, snakes and monkeys

But no religious followers of any religion hit the ceiling or kill for bad mouthing their prophets except us Muslims -- ever-insecure ever-doubting in the fallibility of our prophet -- we have to constantly protect his reputation by violent means -- with "chooiee to mooiee" kind of absurd senseless sensibilities.

Why?

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

Re: # 183 it is peace be upon him (PBUH)and it is for all hte prophets

kamath:

"Am I wrong in my understanding that the very special ranking 'PBUH is bestowed only on the prophet of Islam?"

Not really! It is to be used for all prophets - from Hazrat Adam onwards. [of course, all these are prophets of Islam, not just Mohammad.

Re: # 181 when illusion are so high! and fears creep in your imaginery world, hten how can reason prevail . and onsalught of TV serials glorifying, old classic characters and spreading hatred agaisnt other people on the name of religion is practised as an art in Gujerat, when churches and mosques are destroyed... then perpetrators do,nt wnat glorious and illusory past back!

well said dear , mere your reasoning is fine and all other world which sadi you were killing muslims and christians is wrong!

and if it is a scattered incidence.. acepted... then how can scattered incidences in other communities be threat and an all pervasive phenomenon!

How far we can keep on denying the existance of realities. This world is not perfect , we need to accept limitations and learn to tolerate, not to be racists!

Re: # 180

"Hindus as per Ramayna .."

No way, NO hindu idolator wants to run his country as per Ramayana....

Sorry, you have little idea about what modern hinds want!!! We only want to live without the Islamic goons threatening us all the time.

Re: # 173This "Conformity Syndrome" is not restricted to Pakistanis only, there are Christians who want to run world as per Bible, Jews as per Talmud, Hindus as per Ramayna and Mahabharta? Why to figure out Pakistanis only?

Re: # 173This "Conformity Syndrome" is not restricted to Pakistanis only, there are Christians who want to run world as per Bible, Jews as per Talmud, Hindus as per Ramayna and Mahabharta? Why to figure out Pakistanis only?

Re: # 175 why you are obsessesed with words Pakistanis and Muslims? talk about ideas not about from where that person originates and what is hsi or her religion!

Re: # 174It can be said for every person for which any one has regard, and usually it is reserved for Prophets peace be upon them , who were sent to all of the humanity!

Re: # 173well said dear, is only GDP growth rate with highest suicide rate is the development?

What is Jehadist? Do you know its meaning?

What was Arjun doing in the War?

Re: # 174

Kamat ji,

Read Quran. Read Hadiths. Study some standard Tafsirs.
You would learn Islam correctly than trying to understand it by reading sugar coated propagandas of "modern" muslims.

Re: # 130 Majumdar

Am I wrong in my understanding that the very special ranking 'PBUH is bestowed only on the prophet of Islam? So why do you call Naqushabandi as Maulana Naqshbandi (pbuh)?
Just a curiosity!

Kamath

Re: # 172

An Islamic violent jehadist telling the Japs that Zen and Ahimsa has nothing to do with their progress.

What a joke!!

typical of Pakistanis - every thing they say "must" be in conformity with the Islamic principles (here that of violent Jehadic conflict).

Re: # 167All the philosophies and ideas have theri place and age and in his times Buddha's ideas were amazing and they did influence a lot of people ... and for present yes it is a fact their relevance is not as important as it was in past!

There is cut throat competition but the spirit of co-operation is the bases of development and love let us hope to revive that!

Re: # 167All the philosophies and ideas have theri place and age and in his times Buddha's ideas were amazing and they did influence a lot of people ... and for present yes it is a fact their relevance is not as important as it was in past!

There is cut throat competition but the spirit of co-operation is the bases of development and love let us hope to revive that!

Re: # 167All the philosophies and ideas have theri place and age and in his times Buddha's ideas were amazing and they did influence a lot of people ... and for present yes it is a fact their relevance is not as important as it was in past!

There is cut throat competition but the spirit of co-operation is the bases of development and love let us hope to revive that!

Re: # 167All the philosophies and ideas have theri place and age and in his times Buddha's ideas were amazing and they did influence a lot of people ... and for present yes it is a fact their relevance is not as important as it was in past!

There is cut throat competition but the spirit of co-operation is the bases of development and love let us hope to revive that!

Re: # 167All the philosophies and ideas have theri place and age and in his times Buddha's ideas were amazing and they did influence a lot of people ... and for present yes it is a fact their relevance is not as important as it was in past!

There is cut throat competition but the spirit of co-operation is the bases of development and love let us hope to revive that!

Re: # 165
Buddha’s principles might have been righteous and moral, but real world is cut throat you can’t spend your life sitting under a tree meditating, you have to engage with the world to progress, even AMD and INTEL are involved in a sort of conflict for supremacy.

majumdar bhai: Homo Erectus (cousin-brother to all humans) no doubt had his share of war (having moved from Africa all the way to China) before the species died out. And the only invention over the couple of million years it was around (i.e. between 1-2 million years ago), the only invention this respected cousin could make was a measly sharpened stone.

So, it seems to me that while necessity remains the mother of all invention, maybe being stupid or smart is the father. And war is only a special case.

Re: # 164
How many basic inventions were for/due to war? Non much. I will provide list of such inventions. Please look at the Noble list. That will give fair amount of Idea.
Regarding neuclear fission, it was started in German universities. The bomb making was taken up by US. My intention is, how many such inventions are of great influence to humanity today. The basic human nature to perform well, when there intention is good and their state of mind is peaceful. There is a nice comment in Jurasic Park II. Technology and violence are not good bed-fellow.

Aslam bhai,

(Btw: some of the great inventions were invented during war.)

To name some more.

The Haber process for making ammonia (and urea) was invented to help Germany make explsoives after Chilean nitrate supply was cut off.
Kleenex tissue was first invented as a protective against Chlorine gas in WW-I.

Regards

Re: # 162
Conflict doesn’t necessarily have to be war, I’m sure first humans were involved in conflict as well, with nature and animals for food and survival.

Btw: some of the great inventions were invented during war. Brits invented radar and jet engine, germans rockets, Americans nuclear technology etc.

Re: # 137
Conflict/violence was never responsible for invention/creativity. In that respect, mislims, mongals,turks should have contributed large amount to the civilisation. That is not true. Most of the conflicts has occurred in mediaval period and is termed as dark age.
Modern European story was different. The British,French, Portugeese,Spanish monarchy has little to do with invention of Steam Engine,Electricity, Telegraphy and other scientific inventions. The best example was China and India before christ. Without conflict, these two vast nations exchanged ideas and excelled in most of the fields.

Among the 246 poet-authors mentioned in the Thera Gatha, 113 were Brahmins, 70 Kshatriyas. Thus, it is clear that Buddhism had no real opposition in India. In Fact, the kings gave equal protection to both Hinduism and Buddhism. For example, the Gupta empire, although Hindu, gave full protection to Buddhism. So did Harsha’s empire. Lalitaditya, the greatest king of Kashmir, although not a Buddhist, built the largest Vihara for the Buddhists.

Re: # 152

"-i have a lot of respect for buddha as a person and admire his life.."

That a load of BS Taquiyya. You are simply jealous of the peace that Buddha attained in his own life that your Walis could never on this very Earth. On one hand we can clearly see your Walis and Sheikhs popping their blood vessels going about doing Jehad and killing , looting and raping idolators- on the other hand is the Ahimsa, Ego-lessness of Buddha who attained that peace in his very life than conjecturing about peace after the death in some Jannah!!!

If Buddha is to be compared to the Prophet we can clearly see who is the enlightened person!!

Aquaris/Swarrier,

I guess Buddhism as it was practised required lots of monks and nuns. Now if you look at it from the kings POV it was a whole lot of waste.

Firstly, if you had lots of monks/nuns you were affecting your population growth which meant less soldiers for your army and less workers for your economy.
Secondly, the king had to support a whole of useless parasites.

No wonder in the long run the kings weren't too fond of Buddhists or Buddhism and stopped patronising them. Which in turn meant that these monks would starve. So I guess they decided that the best would be to do some honest work for a change. That's why Buddhism died out.

Regards

151 aslam: Thanks for an informative piece on shintoism. Note that the link between shintoism and japanese nationalism of the WWII style is not dead yet, and is in fact "enshrined" in the Yusukuni Shrine - the shinto shrine which contains the names of over 2 million japanese "shaheeds", including criminals like those who murdered tens of thousands of civilians in Nanking or did brutal "medical experiments" in the infamous Unit 731.

The "ultraclever" japanese emperor (who quickly surrendered when his own neck was on the line after sending millions to their death for his greater "glory") used to visit this shrine until this link with war criminals became public knowledge and, being "ultraclever", the scoundrel changed his tune. Sounds familiar?

So, once again, religion is used to stay in power

University of Nalanda was established 450 CE under the patronage of the Gupta emperors, notably Kumaragupta
it is mentioned Gautum Budh also stayed there a number of times,especially when on his last tour through Magadha.

Mahavira is several times mentioned as staying at NÄ?landÄ?, which was evidently a centre of activity of the Jains. Mahavira is believed to have attained Moksha at Pavapuri, which is located in Nalanda

There were two devastations on an extensive scale of Buddhist shrines and monasteries of northern India. The first was by the Ephthalites or White Huns, who invaded India in 500-520 AD

At that age, Buddhism had enough vitality to heal the wounds inflicted by the Huns for over a decade. Sangha life picked up again in new monasteries built over the ruins of the demolished ones. However, in the western part of India, namely: Gandhara, Kashmir and western Uttar Pradesh, Buddhism had lost much ground to the neo-Brahmanism of the Gupta age. In the eastern part, in Magadha (Bihar) and West Bengal, it began to revive again under the Buddhist king

During the Pala period of its history from the 9th -11th century AD, Buddhism became heavily adulterated by the Tantric cult, with its magic spells, yoga and practices that were completely alien to the earlier form of Buddhism.


The second time it was destroyed it was done by the Gauda kings from East Bengal. It was rebuilt by the Hindu king Harshavardhana

...From time to time Hindus, especially Shaivites, took aggressive action against Buddhism. At least two Shaivite kings—the Hephthalite invader Mihirakula (early 6th century) and the Bengal king Sasanka (early 7th century)—are reported to have destroyed monasteries and killed monks. The philosophers Kumarila and Shankara were also strongly opposed to Buddhism. In their journeys...


source
http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-524701/Sasanka


But s it true , this Khiljee was the one,who not just destroyed but annihilated it...

to conclude i will quote from a Budhist site
who put it rather politely


the three factors discussed earlier contributed to the downfall of Buddhism in India, namely:

• Decay and disintegration of the Sangha.

• Extermination of the Sangha by external invaders.

• Internal opposition from the Hindu caste system.

source

http://www.buddhistpilgrimage.info/downfall.htm


Most of what we know about Nalanda is from the accouhts of chinese travellers and visitors....
in one of such narration, writes

"This inroad of the Huna army was bound to be fatal to the kingdom of Magadha and specially to the Buddhist religion then protected and patronized by the Gupta monarchs. Mihirakula, beyond doubt, in his hatred of Buddhism destroyed all its buildings that he found in his way, and killed all its priests"

...what is mostly done here is the acceptance of the First destruction....and then the Last third one, by the Khiljee
while just putting a passing remark to the second One , or rather undermining the second One,....which was rather partial ....and as some one put it somewhere...and Internal struggle between Budhism and Brahminism.

#152 Posted by Naqshbandi on December 6, 2007 9:09:03 am
( .. but i think his philosophy doesn't explain much about the world...)

Some of the most civilized people on earth (e.g. Japanes, Chinese) have found something in his message. His teachings were adopted voluntarily and he never had to call himself the prophet. May be it takes something to understand him.

[RE:#154 Posted by aquaris on December 6, 2007 9:54:54 am
Muslims are not the only culprits, before them Nalanda was destroyed ' TWICE ' , and because of what appears as
" Brahimin " VS " Buddism " skirmishes.]

Really, and you have proof of this. That some Brahmins went along and destroyed Nalanda. Now I'd be the last person to say Brahmins are the best of all peoples. They suffer from the same foibles are anybody else. There is also no doubt that Muslims are not the only culprits.

Nalanda was destroyed first by the Hunas under Mihirakula when it had just begun to be a centre of learning. It was rebuilt by Puragupta(Skandagupta's brother) and Narasimhagupta(Skandagupta's son??) who were Skandagupta's heirs. Skandagupta was the king when the destruction took place.
By the way the University was started by Kumaragupta I who was not a Buddhist.In fact the Gupta monarchs patronised Buddhism but were themselves Vaishnvaites(not sure about this but they were definitely Hindus).

The second time it was destroyed it was done by the Gauda kings from East Bengal. It was rebuilt by the Hindu king Harshavardhana.

The last time was by Khilji. There was nobody to rebuild it because there I guess there was a power vacuum , no kings were interested, and there was less interest in Buddhist philosophy.

There doesn't seem to be any proof of Brahminical incitation to destroy the university.

The truth is probably that under the Guptas Buddhism and Brahmanism flourished. But as time went on and Brahmanism in Central and North India split into Shaiva and Vaishnava sects the ruling monarchs allied with one of those sects and Buddhism did not receive royal patronage any more. Religion to a large extent can only be propped up by patronage, either patrician or plebian. If neither exists it will decline.

Re: # 153

yep maybe true , there could be a Bais.
but my point is simple...
Muslims are not the only culprits, before them Nalanda was destroyed ' TWICE ' , and because of what appears as
" Brahimin " VS " Buddism " skirmishes.

so laying all the Blame on ' Muslims ' only is not Fair.

Dalitistan, makes a lot of unprovable claims. I would not rely on what's produced there.

actually when i am not deliberately antagonising people like laddu --cos its fun!--i have a lot of respect for buddha as a person and admire his life but i think his philosophy doesn't explain much about the world...

Today neither we nor most Japanese can readily imagine just how much the Shinto we know has changed from what it used to be. Here is a brief summary of some of those changes. In 1868 the new Meiji regime ordered local gods to be dissociated from Buddhism. In other words, all worship halls for gods were stripped of their Buddhist names, Buddhist powers, Buddhist religious rituals, Buddhist art, and Buddhist symbols, and given new "Japanese" identities. Thousands and thousands of Buddhist temples were destroyed to create what subsequently became known as "Shinto." In 1873 the Meiji government outlawed many so-called "superstitious" religious rites performed at the newly independent Shinto institutions. In 1882 the government ruled that Shinto is NOT a religion but a civic duty. They defined Shinto shrines as "civic centers," the rituals of which bond together royal subjects and government officials with the mythological ancestors of the royal family. They forbad Shinto celebrants from performing private religious rituals. In 1906 the government initiated a nationwide program of shrine "mergers," a euphemism for the elimination of shrines that were too small for government supervision. Nationwide more than 52% of Shinto shrines were destroyed, thereby depriving rural villagers of local worship halls. In 1945 the occupation GHQ forbid Shinto shrines from exercising any government-controlled civic role. Deprived of their nationalist and ideological purpose, most shrines were forced to adopt new identities as primitive nature cults, dependent on private individuals. This is the reason why in 1947 the famed folklorist and scholar Orikuchi Shinobu (1887-1953) wrote that Shinto as a "religion" is only 2 years old. In short, first the Buddhist roles were stripped away, then the religious roles were stripped away, then the local roles were stripped away, and finally the national role was stripped away. What was left? Thus, use of the word "shinto" without historical qualifications begs the question: Which Shinto?

_____
The first person to attract widespread attention to the problems with the label "shinto" was a Japanese scholar named Kuroda Toshio (1926-1993), whose work has revolutionized the way that scholars examine medieval Japan. For a brief English-language summary of his view of Shinto, see:

Kuroda, Toshio. 1981: "Shinto in the History of Japanese Religion." Translated by James C. Dobbins and Suzanne Gay. Journal of Japanese Studies 7: 1-21.

Re: # 147
Nationalism can be just as destructive, in japan thousands of Buddhist temples were destroyed by nationalists because it was perceived to be a foreign religion

Dalistan usually have stuff from Ambredkar .


and Ambredkar definately is Baised....right..??

LOL


who said ' khiljee ' was a Brahmin.


the point is, it was destroyed 'TWiCE' ...before this Khiljee thing , who was a Muslim Invader did that....

note not once, but twice.....

Dear Mahfari,

How do you relate holocaust with godhra and nandigram? And secondly, I think we were debating about the tendency of certain groups of people to destroy the religious and cultural places of others. I was trying to inform you that there is enough evidence to show that abrahamic faiths have quashed and estroyed other cultures' temples or learning centers. Don't take it personally but even the portugese did the same in Elephanta caves. This issue is deeply seated in the desert cultures/religions.

Also ,I was trying to point out that most pakistanis falsely assume that objective historical records were made by al beruni and other europeans.
History remains objective as long as it does not concern the author's nationality or religion. Work done by others and translated into one's own language does not automatically bestow a new authorship.

Adios

[RE:#143 Posted by aquaris on December 6, 2007 6:15:20 am]

Right and you don't seem to understand. Selective quotes from Goyal etc on a Pakistani site don't exactly add up to evidence.
Dalistan.org is also undoubtedly unbiased.
You are so smart.
I thought you were HP but I don't think so, he's got brains.

Now where did I mention Muslim in my post?

Aquaris,

(the last time it was destroyed by the Khiljee whatever )

Khiljee sounds like a good Brahmin name.

Regards

and by the way Nalanda was destroyed three times..

the last time it was destroyed by the Khiljee ....whatever

#142

right

LOL

that why I posted the complete article...not any selective portion from it..

Also of interest is the Bibliography of the article
Let me repost that bibliography to quote the exact sources.


Bibliography.

Ahir, D.C. "Buddha Gaya Through the Ages", Bibliotheca Indo-Buddhica Series No.
134, Delhi 1994.

Goyal, S.R., "A History of Indian Buddhism", Meerut 1987. Jayaswal, "An
imperial history of India", Lahore 1934.

Joshi, L.M. "Studies in the Buddhistic Culture of India", New Delhi 1967.

Marshall, John, "Taxila" Cambridge University Press 1951.

Prakash, Buddh, "Aspects of Indian History and Civilisation", Agra 1965.

Taranatha, "History of Buddhism in India", Indian Institute of Advanced
Studies, Simla, 1977.

Vaidya, P.L. ed. "Divyavadana", Darbhanga 1959.

Watters, T. "On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India," ed. by T. W. Rhys Davids and
S.W. Bushel, London 1904, 1905.

no Muslim in it, right...??

[Re:#139 Aquaris]

I love selective quotings from a web site that has this url
http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/buddhists.html.

Ain't it wonderful how unbiased the world is.

I forgot to add Kautilya existed a while before the term muslim as related to a religion landed up.

[ RE:#90 Posted by tahmed32 on December 5, 2007 10:38:31 am
mahfari: btw, John Keay in his excellent book A History of India, supports your thesis that it was with the arrival of muslims that we start getting significant written records of indian politics, economy and society. thus, e.g., much of the earlier history of the deccan is gleaned from pottery tablets, stone pillars etc. which were sometimes meaningful as in case of Asoka, but often merely told tall tales about the king that are of no scientific value. he gives the example of one tablet that credits the king as having a light coming out of his big :-).]

Tahmed32 you must really delve deeper than quote selectively. There are written records in India dating back from BCE on philosophy , aesthetics, mathematics, society. What does your book talk about the Lokyata traditions (maligned by both Buddhist and Hindu Vedantists), Samkhya philosophers, people like Abhinavagupta and his treatises on hasya etc.
Or could it be that a lot of those libraries were destroyed in North India for other reasons? Do take your head out of the sand once in a while.

I querried

" who destroyed Nalanda " and
came up with this one..





Brahmanist assault on Buddhists

The massacres and oppression perpetrated by Brahmanist zealots out of religious
hatred for Buddhists in ancient times are a matter of the historical record.
Yet, for reasons best known to themselves, Brahmanists have been trying to
conceal the hideous, blood-stained record of Hinduism.

The truth must be told.

As the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism progressed, atrocities against Buddhists
increased both in strength and in number. As Goyal [394] notes, "According to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the
decline of Buddhism in India." The hatred poured out against Buddhists in Hindu
scriptures offers ample evidence of this. To quote Goyal again [394-5]:

"Yajnavalkya (I. 271-72) declares that the very sight of a Buddhist monk, even
in dreams, is inauspicious. The Brhannaradiya-purana lays it down as a
principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a Buddhist even in times of
great peril. The drama Mrchchhakatika shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks
were despised and their sight was considered inauspicious. The Vishnupurana
(XVIII 13-18) also regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to
delude the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of Ujjain
to exterminate the Buddhists. ... The Kerala- utpatti describes how he
exterminated the Buddhists from Kerala."

Earlier Post 7th Century Assualts on Buddhism

The Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang (Huen Tsang), who visited India in the
seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of Gauda, who
was a devotee of Shiva. Yuan Chwang's account reads, "In recent times
Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down the Bodhi tree,
destroyed its roots down to the water and burned what remained." [Watters II
p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried "to have the image (of Lord Buddha at
Bodhgaya) removed and replaced by one of Shiva". Another independent account of
Shashanka's oppressions is found in the Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, which refers to
Shashanka destroying "the beautiful image of Buddha" [Jayaswal, 49-50].

Another prominent seventh century murderer of Buddhists was Sudhanvan of
Ujjain, already mentioned in the quotation from Goyal above as having been
supposedly instigated by Kumarila Bhatt. Madhava Acharya, in his
"Sankara-digvijayam" of the fourteenth century A.D., records that Suddhanvan
"issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from Ramesvaram to the
Himalayas".

Nalanda Destroyed by Hindu Zealots

Even after the Islamic invasions of India, Brahmanist bigotry and hatred for
Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan pilgrim who
visited Bihar three decaes after the invasion of Bakhtiaruddin Khilji in the
12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by Hindu mendicants
who took advantage of the chaos produced by the invasion.

He says that "they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and threw
living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist temples. This
produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi, the nine-storeyed
library of the Nalanda University". [Prakash, 213].

Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples after
their destruction. Ahir [58] notes that "The Seat of Buddha's Enlightenment was
in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952. Huen Tsang, tells us that in the
seventh century A.D. not only was the Bodhi Tree at Gaya cut down by the
Shaivite Shashanka, but that that worthy tried to install an image of Shiva in
place of that of the Tathagata. One easy conclusion: there was not at that time
an idol of Shiva at the spot; now, there is a shivalingam in the temple. The
Indian Supreme court has not given its verdict in the case after 50 years!

Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana, the
cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of it stood
the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site in 1860-61.
Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated to Hindu gods mention
may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in Andhra Pradesh which are now
Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively. The temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa,
opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a sacred shrine of the Buddhists. ... And
the famous Jagannatha temple at Puri in Orissa was also originally a Buddhist
shrine. Similarly, the Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist
shrine." As Rajendralal Mitra notes in his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir,
59] the feet of Buddha at Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and held as
the most sacred object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.

Hinduism's record of violence and bigotry against the peaceful followers of
Lord Buddha is unparalleled. I trust this marshalling of the available evidence
for the benefit of readers who may not have had access to it will impel
Brahmanists to accept and apologise for the crimes committed in the name of
Hinduism.

Bibliography.

Ahir, D.C. "Buddha Gaya Through the Ages", Bibliotheca Indo-Buddhica Series No.
134, Delhi 1994.

Goyal, S.R., "A History of Indian Buddhism", Meerut 1987. Jayaswal, "An
imperial history of India", Lahore 1934.

Joshi, L.M. "Studies in the Buddhistic Culture of India", New Delhi 1967.

Marshall, John, "Taxila" Cambridge University Press 1951.

Prakash, Buddh, "Aspects of Indian History and Civilisation", Agra 1965.

Taranatha, "History of Buddhism in India", Indian Institute of Advanced
Studies, Simla, 1977.

Vaidya, P.L. ed. "Divyavadana", Darbhanga 1959.

Watters, T. "On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India," ed. by T. W. Rhys Davids and
S.W. Bushel, London 1904, 1905.

More on the Brahmanist genocide of Buddhism in India:
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/decline/index.html

Re: # 133

This Wali is a charlatan - a wolf in sheep's clothing. Mooh mein Allah bagal mein Churah!!!

Re: # 136
If one reads European history, it is as conflict was born of this land, yet this land gave birth to some of the great inventions and ideas, put it simply Europeans have triumphed even north America is a European transplant.

Re: # 134
This is perceived by moslems/barbarians. Most of the great thinking/innovation has come when people moved away from violence. Most of the great military adventures has collected the knowledge invented by others. The best example is Greek medical science. What Alexander has collected from India and Egypt, they have used that as foundation.

Re: # 134


Only those who have not experienced Karuna and Sunyata would consider Himsa as the "natural" and final aim of human endeavours.
Remember, even the sommum bonnum of Islam is the state of bliss and non-conflict in the jannah!!

Since all human progress has been through conflict and battle of ideas.

Where would humanity be if it had followed buddha’s message of peace, meditation and renouncing the world.

Laddu,

Don't worry about Wali sahib's comments. Zee sahib and his Waziri friends would take care of him, just as global warming would take care of the Maldivian mullahs!!!

Regards

Re: # 128

Miyan Naqshu,

Cut this Idolophobia crap. Mullah lickers like you would never understood how Chandrakirti would not find any inconsistency with concept of śūnyatÄ?, or "emptiness," anatta (no-self), pratÄ«tyasamutpÄ?da (dependent origination) and the idols of Buddha in various states of meditation!
Only people like you are responsible for the current state of Pakistan!!

#128 by Naqshbandi

to quote shaykh hamza perhaps we will realise that all idols including that of the buddha are demons too.

All idols need not be demons and all demons need not have idol replicas.

Maulana Naqshbandi (pbuh)

(perhaps he will realise that all idols including that of the buddha are demons too.)

Wali sahib, and that day, all dead parrots would come back to life thanks to your miraculous powers.

Regards

correction: ...perhaps HE will...

the dalai lama recently forbade his followers from venerating a certain idol since he now believed it was a demon. to quote shaykh hamza perhaps we will realise that all idols including that of the buddha are demons too.

Partho da,

(RELIGION!)

I hope Commie-ism too comes into your definition of a religion.

Regards

RELIGION!


Edmund Burke : All it needs for evil to succeed is for the good to remain silent.

Laddu,

Don't bother about the Maldivians or their mullahs. Global warming is going to take care of them anyways!!!

Regards

Re: # 123 Common sense is most uncommon, russel said and it seems to be rampant in our times!

#122 Posted by Ras on December 5, 2007 6:36:01 pm

In order to do that Pakistan has to save itself from the mullahs first!

Read how a typical mullah thinks about other religions - not to speak about the Buddhist Buts.

"In an article that appeared as part of his column on Minivan (a dhivehi daily related to MDP), the famous wahhabi scholar said that 'there is no way, building a temple on Maldivian soil will be legal in Islamic Shariah'.Warning against the 'dangers' of freedom of religion he further said that according to some Islamic Scholars; 'after conquering a non muslim land; muslims are obligated to destroy the existing places of worship (except mosques)'. Below is a translation of the concluding lines of this article :

"Building places of worship for people of other religions, and letting them live in Maldives with freedom of religion guaranteed by law, will leave Maldives in religious conflicts and unthinkable chaos, from the way things are going on these days. In such a situation it is most likely that, with the aid of millions and millions of dollars and international conventions, and in the name of human rights; people of other religions will overpower muslims of Maldives in Maldives. May Allah save this country from such an abasing fate! Amen! It is important in this case to think deeply about the assaultive activities of non muslims against muslims in the name of human rights or other such names.

O people of intellect. Is depriving muslims of a right which have been given to them and giving that right to a people of some other religion in the name of human rights, acceptable to the sane mind? What glory is there being stuck in things, deceived by materialism."

[Note:According to the Principal Laws of MDP; the islamic advisory council's responsibilities are: creating islamic awareness, forbidding unislamic acts and calling for good deeds, give counsel to MDP on religious issues.]"

Please save/preserve the Buddha Statues in Pakistan!

These sites belong to all of humanity and

are not just for Pakistanis alone.


Ras

Ref Mullah32 #90

[mahfari: btw, John Keay in his excellent book A History of India, supports your thesis that it was with the arrival of muslims that we start getting significant written records of indian politics, economy and society. thus, e.g., much of the earlier history of the deccan is gleaned from pottery tablets, stone pillars etc. which were sometimes meaningful as in case of Asoka, but often merely told tall tales about the king that are of no scientific value. he gives the example of one tablet that credits the king as having a light coming out of his big :-).]

I was going to say that this was a matter of Evolution in action, as there is a need to find the proper receptacle at night ;-)

but then you had to spoil it all with

[#92 Posted by tahmed32 on December 5, 2007 10:39:57 am
that last sentence has a missing word "toe" at the end.]

Ref Urstruly #87

[Re: # 61 laddu
Bhai you seem to be very angry for some reason. And as I understand it your anger is based on the content of some work (Chandrakirti ) that was destroyed a few centuries ago. If that work was destroyed then how did you review it and if you didn't then how can a non-existent mythical thing upset you? This is insane.

My invitation to your salvation is for your own good. God is absolutely and dispassionately indifferent to my recognition or your recognition of Him. Our recognition of Him is for our own good. I am only extending this invitation (dawat) to you and all on this website because my own salvation lies in this. Whether or not you accept this invitation has no consequences to me or any other for I have conveyed what I was charged with.

However, as a fellow human being I would like you to succeed. Isn't it an absolute truth that anger is the most potent of the forces that misguides human beings? Please shed the anger; it will help you realize the beauty around us.]

Chowk Editors, what happened? Did somebody hijack Urstruly's password? The man has become mellow!!

Or do you think he got a visit from the FBI and that made him change his tune?

Ref mahfari #75

[Re: # 67 Read Bhagwat Gita and think over it , you will know its meanings!]

The Bhagawad Gita says to kill the evil-doers even if they are your kin.

Nuke Pakistan NOW!!!

Ref Maharana #68

[Destruction of temples and universities done by anyone in whatever name cannot be judged by any historian objectively.]

However, the entire world will applaud if Mecca is nuked.

[The perpetrators will always claim innocence under some pretext.]

No, we can claim retribution for 9/11.

[But the bottom line is intolerance towards any other view but their own.]

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - Cicero, as paraphrased by Barry Goldwater.

Ref Urstruly #59

[Dear People!

There is no God but One God. I invite you to recognize Him and thus find your salvation. Let me introduce Him to you. God! There is no God but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, the Eternal. No slumber can seize Him, nor sleep. All things in heaven and earth are His. Who could intercede in His presence without His permission? He knows what appears in front of (the future or the hidden) and behind (the past and undisclosed) His creatures. Nor can they (His creatures) encompass any knowledge of Him except what he wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them, for He is the Highest and Most Exalted.

God, the Most High, speaks the truth.]

If you are referring to Mr. Allah, I think I will pass.

I am not as dumb as the camel jockeys.

Ref mahfari #51

[Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?]

We also worship Small-Pox in the form of Goddess Mariamman in the hope that we won't get infected by small-pox.

Does that explain it?

The following post may be offensive to professors of Islamic Thought in minor American colleges and also to professors of Wimmin's Studies, African Studies, etc., and those who consider schistosomosis to be the best thing that ever happened to mankind.

Ref mahfari #33

[Re: # 30 except sporadic military instances of destruction there is no historical record substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples.

How can we guess of huge constructions throughout histroy about a place where the Shudras were not allowed to enter the temples! How many Brahmans were in India who could control the temples and other religious places.

When Arth shastra said pour hot copper in the ears of Shudras if eh listens to sacred Vedas , then how could they have loved to construct temples... so that North indai would ahve been littered with these religious places?

As to South Indai how amny temples we ahve other than famous ones in Kernataka, Orissa, and some other border areas near the coasts and in Gujerat also!]

You are just another Islamic thug making excuses for Islamic thugs of the past who used The Book to End All Books as the justification for destroying all native cultures.

First come to South India before saying there are very few famous temples in South India and that North India would not have had many temples because the lower castes would not have willingly constructed temples into which they were banned from entering.

Come to Kanchipuram, some 2 hours from Chennai and see the dozen or so famous temples in that one town. Come to Kumbakonam and see the hundreds of temples in that non-decript little town. See the huge temples at Tanjore and at Gangai Konda Chola Puram. Visit Srirangam and see the largest temple complex in India. Stop at every little village in between and view the temples there. Then tell us that there are not many temples in South India.

By the way, the admission of lower-castes into temples in South India started after 1937, when the brahmin leadership of the Congress took the initiative for permitting entry into the temples for the lower castes. To this day, a special sect of brahmins are the only ones permitted to offer puja in these temples.

On the other hand, the Vishwanathji Temple in Varanasi (Benares) allows every person to enter the innermost sanctum of the temple and touch the idol.


So talk about the equality of man in Islam while killing Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Aga Khanis, etc., and while putting your women into tent-like burqas.

I am NOT buying your sh!t.

Does anyone know where Mahmood got the pictures for this article? I am a university student studying Buddhism and I am interested in the stupa pictured in figure 8.

#94 Jang

"there are temples built before 10th century with idols.."

Are you talking about period betwen 5th c.E, and 10 th Century C.E.
or
Tenth Century A.D.

If latter than you are correct i agree

#88

"Nooooo credit goes to a momeen for "preservation" of my culture. we idolators collectively "preserved" it DESPITE the muslim rulers!!! "

So Hindus in India are not credited for the 150 million muslims for not succumbing to haegonomy of Hindu despite anger wrath ,riots & discimination.!
Muslims are equally "preserved" DESPITE hindu rule ....

tahmed, maybe soon you can write a similar erudite article about arigins of sikhism in lahore and how hindu intolerance drove it out of lahore :)

thanks for the article.....atleast you thought it has some relevance to Pakistan...........may the 4 truths dawn upon Pakistanis and may they come closer to Buddha's Ashtanga-Marga!!

Re: # 63

"there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) "

Err, Sir, Please , could you provide me the right source for this Hadiths??

mahfari: no offence taken my friend. just wanted to clarify where i was coming from on this.

Re: # 102

Bhai jaan,

Makhan chor is not just one of the tota maina stories, it is an ingredient of a vaishnava idolator's faith.

Re: # 103 all scholars are respectable and leave now to cut and paste from internet sites!

Re: # 99 I did,nt mean to offend you, i was also thinking may be the place of words is unfit; and it has . I just meant to confirm truths and have an open mind. I did,nt mena to hurt any one's dignity.

Re: # 99 I did,nt mean to offend you, i was also thinking may be the place of words is unfit; and it has . I just meant to confirm truths and have an open mind. I did,nt mena to hurt any one's dignity.

Miyan, Chandrakirti was a great scholar who wrote Madhyamakavatara.

Re: # 98 Makhan Chur ki kehani perhi hei kiya!

Re: # 100 it is 1st centruy not 10th century in first line orry for typing error.

Re: # 94 Dear Jang Mahayana school began in 100 AD under Kanishak's influence and 10th century the idols began in Gandhara and it was conscious and liberal decision in those times to come out of narrow clutches of Hinayana/Nihayana to propagate this belief among masses.Were there Buddha idols in Greek?

Picasso's art has symbols of Maya and Inca civilization, does it rob him of his own Picassohood? The learning and assimilation of technique does not obliterate or undertone the basic idea of article Mahayana began in gnadhara and it introduced idols in the Buddhist ideology, back in 5th century in buddhsit temples in South India there were no idols read Oxford History of Indian Art . it is Gandhara art, before greeks there were parts of buddha sculptured not whole body with face, it was in Gandhara that whole body was developed and Mahayana school's bases were laid dwon.

take things not from India or Pakistan's perspctive read them from open heart and mind and embark on footsteps of great sage Krishna Murti at least... think freely !

mahfari: agreed. I am all for using our own minds. and my mind also tells me that not all of us are going to read al beruni in the original like you or maharana (who says he plans to do that). nor are all of us going to go around collecting original evidence from pottery shards and deciphering ancient edicts.

so it is useful to read some properly researched history books with documented sources of data as well in order to increase our knowledge and understanding.

Re: # 87

Bhai may your Allah give you a place in heavens. May you have the big eyed ones.
I have accepted the message given by you......but I reject the message given by that paedophile..........your message is clear, simple and makes sense.......... so let us be at peace..

Re: # 95 kis kay chupai chupi hi roshni!

Re: # 90 Thx for qutoing him. but we have our own minds and reading Primary sources of history makes us use our own reasoning skills!

there was only one book on history , a book of annals, Raj Tarangni written by a Minister of kashmir.......... a great contrast from present Kashmir!

mahfari: so you are in China? nai hao!! :-)
I knew the chinese government was trying to curb "dangerous ideas" of human rights etc. to enter china. I did not realize that it extended to banning Wikipedia. Let us hope Pakistanis never allow the musharraf or some other would-be autocrat to mess with the internet.

its good to see pakis looking at budhhism even with the tinted chashma. gandhara school of sculpture had a definate greek influence in form .. curly hair, upright stature. previous indian sculpture seems to consider a symmetric upright statues as aesthetically unappealing and tend to go for the ashta-wakra (8-bends) forms.

there are temples built before 10th century with idols..

Re: # 88 These idea s will be blasphemous for narrow minded on both sides of border! truth has very strong influence, it shakes up..... learn from Krishna Murti and make your mind free to think freely not to think from biases, use mind not emotions!

that last sentence has a missing word "toe" at the end.

Re: # 85 No need to go and search the rushdie book . i tell you truth, this issue began in 1988-89 in pakistan when a religious scholar wrote an article in daily jang and he was denied power in the regime at taht time and he quoted some portions making fun of ablution by Muslims and raised issues about the spouses of Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) and it was an issue. the intentions were not good and it was fitna! Oh vested interest how many faces you have!

take a broader outlook of such mob mentality by comapring Holocaust, Frenzy of 1947 in India, Bosnia, Rwanda, present frenzy in Iraq, Gujerat in last years, and recently Nandi Gram... Dear Rana sahib need more examples!

mahfari: btw, John Keay in his excellent book A History of India, supports your thesis that it was with the arrival of muslims that we start getting significant written records of indian politics, economy and society. thus, e.g., much of the earlier history of the deccan is gleaned from pottery tablets, stone pillars etc. which were sometimes meaningful as in case of Asoka, but often merely told tall tales about the king that are of no scientific value. he gives the example of one tablet that credits the king as having a light coming out of his big :-).

Mystic,

You can also deduce from that paragraph that those spared were not in the main root of the invasion. Hence invasion still was the cause of the ultimate destruction.
The decline of Buddhism started with Hinduism accepting Buddha as the ninth Avatar. Even now most of the concepts in both are not much different.

Adios

Re: # 81

listen, this tranlation argument is a joke. Hinduism did not survive because Akbar translated their books. Those who assert this are only repeating their Pak Studies propaganda.
Hinduism survived because of the guts , resolve and faith of idolaters like me. It survived because hindus bribed, bought, struggled, fought for preservation of their living traditions. It was preserved because idolators like me spent years of their life learning, reading and practicing the texts and practices of their Dharmic texts.
Nooooo credit goes to a momeen for "preservation" of my culture. we idolators collectively "preserved" it DESPITE the muslim rulers!!!

Re: # 61 laddu
Bhai you seem to be very angry for some reason. And as I understand it your anger is based on the content of some work (Chandrakirti ) that was destroyed a few centuries ago. If that work was destroyed then how did you review it and if you didn't then how can a non-existent mythical thing upset you? This is insane.

My invitation to your salvation is for your own good. God is absolutely and dispassionately indifferent to my recognition or your recognition of Him. Our recognition of Him is for our own good. I am only extending this invitation (dawat) to you and all on this website because my own salvation lies in this. Whether or not you accept this invitation has no consequences to me or any other for I have conveyed what I was charged with.

However, as a fellow human being I would like you to succeed. Isn't it an absolute truth that anger is the most potent of the forces that misguides human beings? Please shed the anger; it will help you realize the beauty around us.

Re: # 83 I am laughing now! it is China!

Mahfari,

I will read Al Beruni's Al Hind since you have talked so much about him. There seems to be a lot more to Beruni then just translating and propagating works as you are claiming.
It is a widely hels notion by historians that the arabs were excellent traders not just in goods but in ideas too. The muslims in spain translated works from the east and created a vast library in Al Andalus.

Yes, I'll quote you the exact issues regarding the Rushdie affair and his claims soon enough.

Adios

Re: # 80 thank you mystic for setting the record straight! I would have myself read it , but here it does not open!

mahfari: you mention that you are in a country where the wikipedia is not accessible. and yet you can access the interent. I am curious to know which country this is, and why wikipedia is not accessible.

Re: # 79 yea i have read again and again bhagwat gita and it is pure bliss to read! You?

Re: # 77 wonderful ! You are beyond Badayuni, who himself sadi that akbar forced me to translate the texts of kafirs and he was labeleld Mullah by Akber himself!
(get a copy of book and read it , it is not available on internet certainly )

Be sure do,nt beat about the bush by saying PROBABLY!

#68
You forgot or intentially insert (need to be Verified)

In your bias you did not completely quote from the Wikipedia

Ling and Scott, however, point out that centres of learning were already declining, before the presence of Muslims.[18] Fortified Sena monasteries along the main route of the invasion were destroyed, and being off the main route both Nalanda and Bodh Gaya survived. Many institutions off the main route such as the Jagaddala Monastery in northern Bengal were untouched and flourishing(also ned to be verified)

I do not know if you have visited (for orientation of different areas mentined )to deduce .I have

Re: # 75

"Re: # 67 Read Bhagwat Gita and think over it , you will know its meanings!"

I would say the same to you about Quran!!

Re: # 76 He translated many portions of bhagwat gita , but many other Classic Hindu texts were also translated well before him in akbar's era in Persian.

"he got translated the Ramayna in Persian along with other texts of Hindu classic literature."

That is a joke.........translations to persian or english only helps bridge the gap between two different religons........it does not "preserve" a living tradition......only practicing hindus "preserve" a living tradition of vedas and sanathan dharma........ Akbar probably translated them at the request of mullahs who wanted to analyse the original texts of the idolator for fatwas to control them.................

Actually Darashikoh translated the first ever translation into any language of the Upanishads.
In his case, from Sanskrit to Persian.

Re: # 67 Read Bhagwat Gita and think over it , you will know its meanings!

Re: # 71 he got translated the Ramayna in Persian along with other texts of Hindu classic literature. read Muntakhawab-al-tarikh written by badayuni , that there was a whole lot of people to translate literature of India in Persian. dara Shikuh translated bhagwat Gita and wrote a book Majm-al behrain.
Come out of propaganda ideology, confirm the texts.

If you can get read the brilliant thesis by Dr. Tara Chnad Influence of Islam on Indian Culture , he was not a propagandsit certainly!

I am only speaking for the legacy of चन�द�रकीर�ति that was lost in Nalanda...........Al Beruni means nothing to me........

Re: # 68

Dear Maharana

You are quoting wikipedia and you will also be knowing about its basic premise that it is always open to re-interpretation and new ideas. i am in a country where i can not access Wikipedia otherwise i would ahev read this source, but I believe in this as you have said .
If you have not read Al-Beruni's Al Hind and other books on sciences then there is no need to discuss it further.

as to refer to the eevnt in the life of holy Prophet peace be upon him can you quote the exact place and exact temple which was destroyed despite promising otherwise?

As to abrahamic religions I presented an evolutionary perspective , you have rigth to differ as I have right to my own opinion. But hte question of facts, and realities, If certain people did a bad thing in certain circumstances; then how it becomes a role that all people belonging to that idea or creed were responsible for the same act?

History is not religion !



of

Re: # 65

"Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar"

What Pakistani propaganda!!

Akbar "preserved" Indian texts?? Which texts are you talking about?? Ramayana, Veda, Upanishads, Jinna Granths, Tripitakas, Sahitya, Kalidas, Aryabhatt. Charaka ??? Which text do you give Akbar the credit for "preservation"????

Re: # 63

"there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) "

Err, Sir, Please , could you provide me the right source for this Hadiths??

Mahfari,
In your excitement please don't post the same thing over and over.

Mahfari,

Your post reveals a bias impossible to bridge with facts. Posidonius from Greece had already developed a way to measure earth's circumference. Alberuni did nothing original. He took the indian numerals and later the same were spread as arabic numerals. This is what a simple search in wikipedia will give you about nalanda ,

"In 1193, the Nalanda University suffered a final blow after the complex was sacked by Muslim armies[18] under Bakhtiyar Khilji; this event is seen as a milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India."

You are free to assume that no muslim was involved in it. As far as Bin Qasim is concerned, try and remember that for administration of iraq even the US had to turn back to the old baathists. The truce they have made with them has ensured peace. Bin Qasim's attempt to run Sindh by the help of locals cannot be taken as an act of mercy. He needed them.

I do not wish to offend you again, but you are quoting me abrahamic texts showing tolerance and mercy. Unfortunately, the acts in the name of faith that have beeen commited are just the reverse. I have not forgotten the calls for decapitation of salman rushdie for mentioning some historical facts about temple destruction in arabia during the times of the prophet of Quran. Is it a historical fact that a temple was destroyed by your prophet after pledging just the reverse? And if so then how does it show tolerance towards others. Why should his followers not walk in the same footsteps?
What kind of objectivity can you bring in this discussion of temple destruction anywhere but a sense of bigotry.

I do not believe that issues of religion can ever be discussed objectively. Destruction of temples and universities done by anyone in whatever name cannot be judged by any historian objectively. The perpetrators will always claim innocence under some pretext. But the bottom line is intolerance towards any other view but their own.

Adios

Re: # 59

"All things in heaven and earth are His. "

He must have a title ship deed signed in his favour for the ownership......err by the way can he sell the heavens and earth as well to his friend satan??

Re: # 62 Violence unprovoked is condemnable!In Quran it is explicitly said killing o one person is killing of humanity!

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 60 Probably ????????? Be certain dear! It were Muslims who secured the old knowledge of ancient folks! scholars are all respectable irrespective of their faith and creed!

there is saying of Holy Prophet peace eb upon him the ink of scholar is sacred tahn blood of hundreds of martyrs! (Hadith) scholars are always great and I am with you on the loss of all teh human heritage lost under wars intentionally or otherwise!
Al_ Beruni save dthe knowledge of Indai, If he was not there , we would have lost glorious record of those times and a real loss to humanity indeed it would have been!

who gave the wolrd Zero, from India , Muslims! Who translated great works of Indian wisdom Muslims in Baghdad, Who preserved and translated indain texts Akbar , who preserved the Ashoka Column in Delhi one of Tughlaq Kings!
And zealots are never momeenens , they are prisoners of theri own delusions, but on the false undestadning of religion!

Re: # 58

"The text quoted by you is not to prove this point which you are raising ,"

Despite giving you the source as well as extracts of that Nalanda-genocide by zealot momeens bent upon converting every one and looting and killing kafirs, you act like a typical Islamist denying that the event ever occurred!!

How can you be so blind despite the evidence thrown at you......

Re: # 59

"God, the Most High, speaks the truth."

But maulavi shaheb isn't your God the "best deceiver."......that means he must be lying as well in order to decive idolators like me....so their goes the credibility of your God about speaking the truths!!!!

I do not care about Al-Beruni, I only respect and care about the legacy of the great scholar Chandrakirti whose works were probably destroyed by the zealot momeens in the attack on Nalanda!!!

Dear People!

There is no God but One God. I invite you to recognize Him and thus find your salvation. Let me introduce Him to you. God! There is no God but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, the Eternal. No slumber can seize Him, nor sleep. All things in heaven and earth are His. Who could intercede in His presence without His permission? He knows what appears in front of (the future or the hidden) and behind (the past and undisclosed) His creatures. Nor can they (His creatures) encompass any knowledge of Him except what he wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them, for He is the Highest and Most Exalted.

God, the Most High, speaks the truth.

Re: # 57 read it carefully within context . dont take words out of context. In histroy nothing is perfect and for Muslims except Prophets peace eb upon them , no one is perfect or innocent. From this fundamental belief flew the tradition of writing truth. Why did Indra Gandhi attacked Golden Temple? Should we say after this that Gandhi destroyed all sikh Gurdewaras! Search truth not incomplete truth! A sporadic example at any place can not become a rule to assert its authenticity. Exceptions do,nt make rules!

The text quoted by you is not to prove this point which you are raising , it aims to show the histroical understanding and importance of place NALANDA as the place of wisdom and its realtionship with knowledge. why did Al Beruni chose this very place? Think and come out of sand Dear Laddu!

Re: # 52

"..( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places),..."

How long would momeens act like ostriches??? Read history .read "Tawakat-i-Nasiri"........read Quran and Hadiths like Buddha would have wanted you to read and not like a blind mullah........for god sake and open your eyes to this cult of hate???

Re: # 50 This shows the belief of followers of Buddha and treats Him as Ultimate Truth which he never asserted or declared! did He ?

Re: # 50 sorry the interact is ebing sent too many times! not my intention and desire!computer glitch!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Re: # 43 If you have in deatail the Kitab al Hind of Al beruni , then you will be knowing that in the portion on calender he has calculated the periods of Kalyug, and related periods.

As far as his interest fro mathematics is concerned he measured the cirumference of earth at Nalanda ( the place mentioned and propagated as the desruction point by some persons as an example of destruction of religious places) and hsi measurement is more than 98% correct as comapred to present measurements!

He has written many treatise on the subject of mathematics and he was himslef a great mathmeticain of his times!


it was not Church history, it was histrory of highest standard in those times read the original texts of those times and they will tell that how histroy is written . they did,nt spare any one and all were not official historians and comapring these with church histroy is like comapring apples with turnips!

it was not tradition of civilized people to destroy religious places, but of least civilized ones ,and yes all times had such breeds ! But it was not a rule to be followed.

As to Abrahamic faiths there is great difference between the Quran and other extant texts of sacred nature. take example even in Quran it is mentioned that when Suleman AS (the famous for Hekel-e =Sulemani ) 's forces passed through a jungle the ants said change your path suleman the Great AS's forces come. But when the forces of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be UPon HIm) passed near a nest of doves He peace be upon him said change the path and it was changed and dove nests were kept intact.

In Old Testament there punishment of wiping out for the enemies and they did it in those times but at teh tiem of conquest of Makkah the worst enemies of Muhamamd peace be upon him and Islam were pardoned ! There was a visible cahnge wrought by ideas and messages of Holy prophet peace be upon him and Holy quran and it was there and its impact is still here.

The present bigotry, hatred and violence on the name of Islam and human libverty and freedom is not sanctioned by Islam and Allah's messangers peace be upon them. they are serving theri interests whther it was 9/11 or other related acts of killing innocent people .

The search fro truth is not paved with roses alone, it has thorns of truth andrealities also!

Who were the Sindhi people who welcomed Muhamamd Bin Qasim , why were all the old officials of administrative departemnts were kept intact by Muhamamd Bin Qasim?

why Hindus after his death made hsi idols and worshipped him?

where did Buddhists went after coming of Islam in India? They were never forced . delusionsand illusions are not histroy. it is search for truth and truth nad nothing else ... although it is not always conducive to our personal beliefs and egos!

the greatest test of truth is reason, use it and discern trtuh as sadi by Rumi RA that use light of reason and knowledge and discern from fals and true!

It is not dogma it is a dynamic and ever creative struggle!

Read this extract -

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9mz9yg74wAC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78& dq=turk+nalanda+university&source=web&ots=UcEQ90ULKV&sig=60GgMWWCf1- RAnDgP5aHMUK2CRc#PPA78,M1

Pratya Samputada

Pali "paticca-samuppada " the chain, or law, of dependent origination, or the chain of causation—a fundamental concept of Buddhism describing the causes of pain and the course of events that lead a being through rebirth, old age, and death.

Existence is seen as an interrelated flux of phenomenal events, material and psychical, without any real, "permanent", independent existence of their own. These…


pratitya-samutpada... (75 of 421 words)


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#4
For Buddha, Pratittya Samutpada is the basis of "Samsara" and is one of the "Sats" that humanity must admit. The entire philosophy of Buddhism is based upon the notion of "Samsara" and the cycle of existence that gets unleashed due to karmas and sankalpas. Violence begets its fruits and even Mohamamad must have suffered the fruits of his violent karmas. There is NO intercession by any Allah.

Pakistani situation is a clear example of pratitya samutpada - the hatred of TNT come back to haunt the very proponents. The more Pakistan Islamizes, the more it gets farther from the very philosophy of Buddhism that existed on its soil till it was decimated in typical Islamic genocide.
...............................
I wish & Hope Both Patel (hindu congress )& (Jinnah muslim PML)equally respnsible for TNT get there Prati SAmputada

Gandhi must be smiling being more a jain& Against TNT

The destruction of the University of Nalanda is recorded by the Turkish historian Minhazad in his "Tawakat-i-Nasiri"- he describes how 20,000 shaven headed idolators were beheaded and they could not find any one to explain what was written in the books.......

Shame on these zealot momeens...thoook...........

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Re: # 41 there is a saying in Urdu marun ghutna phutay ankh!there is no further need to comment on the interacts of this type! Is it?

Mahfari,
You are quoting alberuni as an objective historical source. Well, the guy critiqued indian mathematical contribution without knowing much about it in the first place. He thought of most of the mathematical constructs as useless as he could not understand it himself.
If a catholic considers the history maintained by the church as objective then I think we need a new definition of objective.
Please do not be offended, but it is clearly recorded by the Turk invaders that they destroyed the Nalanda university thinking it to be a temple (A later rationalization in my opinion). It was common culture in the middle eastern societies to destroy the places of worship of their enemies. So they were not doing anything unusual in India.
Somehow the eastern traditions are less hung over on the religious/spiritual practices of others. As an example when Cyrus the great invaded Jerusalem, he did not destroy any Jewish temple or obstruct the locals in their religious beliefs. Tolerance for others is actually presented as a vice in any Abrahamic faith.

As far as objectivity in history is concerned, I do not think that there is any nation and organized religion which has recorded its history objectively. It is a useless excercise to rationalize the existence of the statecraft.

You are right about the Brahminical discrimination towards the dalits. Which is why, from 47 onwards the laws have been formulated to wipe out such discrimination. It takes time to root out ingrained prejudices. But at least to begin with laws exist to counter that in India. The same shastras that you remember well have been forgotten by the upper castes in India and no one gives them any respect anymore. I think not taking any religious word literally for the word of God is essentiual for any such change.
This reminds me of the famous Buddha teaching that you should have talked about too apart from just statues in Pakistan,
"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."

Adios

Re: # 33

"Re: # 30 except sporadic military instances of destruction there is no historical record substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples."

This is the most illiterate piece of Islamist historiography that one can only find on Paki sites.
I do not want to spam ......but I have around 20 namas of Islamic megalomaniacs just to disprove that that innocence that is being displayed by you......

Re: # 33

"substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples."

Yes, Yes, you can also ask every one to substantiate 9/11-s , 7/11-s , WWII Jewish holocaust or even the surrender of 1971!!!

Re: # 35

"Jain, Buddhist & sikh also claim that they are distinct from Hindu"

Define what is Hindu before you re-state the standard Paki propaganda needed to revenge that pathetic state that actually is because of their own karmas!!

Re: # 35

"Temples and hindu idols were absent till 10 th century C.E."

Miyan , kaun se madarasee se par kar dawah karne nikle ho??

Re: # 26

"reached upto these Buddha statutes in Bamiyan and tok out the diamonds out fo eyes and merely said I just wanted to show that they even can not help themselves how can they help you?"

This is standard Islamic propaganda against idolators. First, create a caricature of idolator religion and then abuse that caricature as if that implies critique of that religion. The first caricature is of equating the idols with the spiritual deity - as if the photo of bush is GWB and after burning that photo some Islamist claims - " look he cannot save himself."
Infact, every idolator must look at these Pakistanis and say - "See, even your Allah cannot save you from your current state."
The fact remains that the standard operating manual of Islam prescribes abominable amounts of violence against other religions.

Re: # 35 well said , fully agree!

Re: # 35 well said , fully agree!

*18

"The Mahayana schools believe in effecting the spiritual liberation of all beings from the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth."
Fully agree with you

Temples and hindu idols were absent till 10 th century C.E.
This explained by the fact that for the period between 4th 5th c.e.and 10th c.e.was relatively lull period of hinduism after which hindu asserted them selves overr Jain & Buddha.

In ayodhya Jain claim the temple was built OVER jain temple.

Jain, Buddhist & sikh also claim that they are distinct from Hindu

Re: # 32wonderful I will love to respond!

Re: # 30 except sporadic military instances of destruction there is no historical record substantiate the fact that Muslims destroyed the viharas, stupas, and temples.

How can we guess of huge constructions throughout histroy about a place where the Shudras were not allowed to enter the temples! How many Brahmans were in India who could control the temples and other religious places.

When Arth shastra said pour hot copper in the ears of Shudras if eh listens to sacred Vedas , then how could they have loved to construct temples... so that North indai would ahve been littered with these religious places?

As to South Indai how amny temples we ahve other than famous ones in Kernataka, Orissa, and some other border areas near the coasts and in Gujerat also!

How can there be temples when common people were not allowed to constrcut and enter the temples, read again the Shastric rules about constrcution of Temples and then relate it ot the number of temples!This fad of constrcuting of religious places by all the followers of religions and creeds is the gift of modernity. It was not so rampant in past as it 1s portrayed to be!

#19

The Hinayana school talks of Nirvana for the individual.
Mahayana schools talk of Nirvana for all living beings not just humans. In that sense the individual Mahayana practitioner pledges to some back into the samsara to release all beings.

It seems to me that you say that Mahayana is only for humans and that is not right.

By the way what do you mean by Hinduised sources? Do you suppose the Buddha originated in some country where the predominant form of religious thought was Taoism.
Where do you think the seminal thinking of Buddha originated from? Do you think he was born a Taoist?
Do you think the concept of Hinayana and Mahayana originated in some other country other than India. The Mahayana school originated in South India.

What do you think Pali is ? It is a literary language developed in India patronised by Hindu kings. It is another prakrit language which means vernacular as opposed to Sanskrit.

What are original Buddhist texts? Those written by the Chinese? I suppose they chose to write in Pali because it was their mother tongue.

Do you know what samsara is ?

Since you brought up the original source of Buddhism I suggest you dismiss all discussion of Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. They are all tainted by their local influences just as you use the word "Hinduised".

Re: # 29 Can we count the books written on history of India in pre-Modern times ? who was Alberuni? He wrote first sociological and objective compendium about India in 11th century . Who patronized him son of the so-called but -shikan !

the problem is that due to narrowmindedness of modern times and our own vested interests we are unable to share and understand the human heritage and history and culture !

As far as the non-appreciation of non-Islamic culture is concerned it is an incomplete truth. Have you read Dr. Hasan Dani, Salman Rashid,Yahya Amjad , Rashid Akhter Nadvi, and most important the original sources of indian histroy written by Muslim writers in last more than 1000 years, who without bias describe the events of history. how many Hindu Rajahs patronized historians? we need to histroy from objective eyes and not from eyes of a bigot!

Re: # 26

By other things, I mean temples, stupas, viharas,
etc. I am sure Afghanistan, present day Pakistan, and
northern India must have been littered with them.
You hardly see any of those ancient structures.

Mahfari # 20,

"Muslims were in Bamiyan in 7th century and reached upto the place called Bamiyan and it is also near Ghazni, the Empire of Mahmood Ghazanavi, so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?"

If it took your firendly neighbourhood ISI bomb experts more than two attempts to blow up the Bamiyan with the most modern explosives, what chances of sucess of destroying them existed in the hands of tech. challenged muslim medival hordes?

This article is a good attempt by a pakistani to start looking for a better understanding of his history. But anyone can see that all Pakistanis suffer from a complete lack of knowledge about anything nonislamic in their country's past.
An interesting and relevant issue for pakistanis with regards to Buddhism would be that Buddha's pictures and statues did not exist for atleast 4 centuries after his death. His message precluded people from worshipping him. Yet centuries later as is the human tendency, people erected statues and pictures to honor him and eventually worship him as a personal deity. Interestingly there is nothing in Buddhism that condemns these followers to hell or decapitation for such acts.

Adios

Re: # 25 yea your understanding is right and it catches the essence of the differnce in Buddhist Tradition.

Re: # 25 yea your understanding is right and it catches the essence of the differnce in Buddhist Tradition.

Re: # 24 It is reported about these statutes in histroy books that in the times of Caliph Usman RA Muslims reached to these areas and in those times these Buddha statutes had precious diamond and pearls studded in them. one Companion of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)who was of shorter height ran and reached upto these Buddha statutes in Bamiyan and tok out the diamonds out fo eyes and merely said I just wanted to show that they even can not help themselves how can they help you? and came down and they never destroyed these . As far as destroying other many htinsg will you specify the other things?

I think yana (or yan) in Sanskut means vehicle.
So mahayana and hinayana are just different vehicles,
higher vehicle and lower vehicle.

Re: # 20

"so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?"

Because there were plenty other things to destroy.
They probably did not have means to destroy such huge statues.

Re: # 22 welcome!

Thanks, this is fabulous.

Re: # 17http://www.spiritpathperu.com/west/ayahuaska/discipline/index.html read tis it shows the use of word of nihayana and read again the answer . the presence of hinayna was not denied and the stress is upon the basic difference of thought not on the nomenclature.

Re: # 16 word Hindu is anathema for bigoted and reactionaries of present modern age , in Muslim literature of Classic Persian and earlier Urdu it was used for a beautiful person , see the Sadi's writings.

the word hindu flows from Sapat Sandhu, the land of Seven Rivers and now of five rivers Punjab! this bias does not exist in any religion or peole it exists in followers of a religion , what happened to jews in WWII? what happened to Muslims in Gujerat? what happened to Protestant Christians in France in 1576 August?

Muslims were in Bamiyan in 7th century and reached upto the place called Bamiyan and it is also near Ghazni, the Empire of Mahmood Ghazanavi, so why they were not destroyed then by those but-shikans then?

Conduct of fanatic and stubborn Taliban on name of Islam can not be equated with act of all the Muslims , it was then bad , it is bad and it will remain bad to unwantonly destroy the religious icons of any person. because there si no compulsion in religion!

Re: # 18If you will study deeply the original sources of Budhism, not the Hinduised sources as you are referring; then you will know the basic difference, that in Hinayana /Nihayana and Mahayana was of the traditional and liberal differnce based upon the ability and approach to attain Nirvana or to get rid of all the suffering and pain. In Hinayana/ Nihayana there was only one person who atatined mukti ( in Hindu terms) and attainment of nirvana in Mahayana it was asserted , ratehr it was its basic tenet to believe that evry one can becoem Buddha by adotpng the Ten Basic percepts of Buddhism as enunicated by its major thinkers. And this difference becomes clearer and more elaborate when we see the traditions of Tibetan Lama Buddhism and mainstream Chinese Buddhism and theri related differences.

The Tripatakas and Trijatakas are not in Brahminic language of religious elite of ancient India , they are in Pali ( is it alive today!) and in China it was translated by xuan Zhuang and 52 other Chinese who traveleld to Xi Tian means Western Paradise ( present day Pakistan) and for India Xuan Zhuang uses word du shen ( Du is word for drugs and virus in chinese present use and shen is for body ( for this see the translated text of xuan Zhuang's journey to look for Buddhist literature. from India only 16 monks traveleld for literary pursuits. See Cultural Flow Between China and outside world throughout History Foreign language Press Beijing written by Shen Fuwei 1996.

And as to Samsara terminology, did you hear about Shambhala Concept of Buddhism in Tibetan Lama Buddhism?

Also to echo DM your interpretation of Nirvana or Hinayana is not quite correct.

Hinayana schools believed in achieving Nirvana which means liberation of the self from the samsara. The Buddha(Siddharta)never claimed to take anybody to Nirvana.

The Mahayana schools believe in effecting the spiritual liberation of all beings from the cycle of reincarnation and rebirth.

[Re: # 15Yea the most popular name is Hinayna, but it is also named as Nihayana, and it is also translated as smaller consciousness.]

So Nahayana is a typo.
It's interesting, Hina means left behind or abandoned or low, while Niha means loss or deprived.
In which text is the term Nihayana used?

Thanks for an informative article. I have often felt that it is time that Pakistanis reclaim their heritage and since the word Hindu is still an anathema, Buddhism is a good starting point.

This is for the first time that I have read the word Nahayana for Hineyana Buddhism. I am also not sure if your interpretation of Hineyana is quite correct. My understanding is that in both branches of Buddhism, the path to Nirvana is getting rid of one's desires - following someone to heaven is an Abrahmic concept, indic faiths place responsibility on one's karma.

I believe that the gandhara art is infulenced to a great extent by Greek art and the figures resemble Greek figures to a large extent.

The article also displays innate biases and ignorance of Pakistanis. Buddhism was not destroyed by zealot Hindus. In fact, Buddha never renunciated the religion of his birth - this was not necessary as the local culture allowed and encouraged plurality of thought. Buddha was never attacked or humiliated by his people and his was merely a 'panth' a dfferent path among many that flourished in that land at that time (I doubt if the word Hindu even existed at that time, at least in the sense of a religious faith). As for as which zealots destroyed the religion, it was the religion of the but-shikans and the evidence is there from Nalanda to Bamyan to the more recent destruction of the Buddhist icons in Pakistan. As for Hindus, they assimilated (not destroyed) Buddhism by making Buddha one of their avtars. Indeed many Buddhist temples were built by the Hindus, as is the most important one in Delhi next to Birla Mandir and built by the Hindu industrialist Birla. To the extent that Buddhists were "converted" (the concept is again alien in the Indic context) this was largely done by Shankaracharya in the tenth century by largely incorporating many aspects of Buddhism, such as vegetarainims, into Hinduism.

But one should not blame Pakistanis for believing that Hindu zealots destroyed by Hindu zealots. This "discovery" was made by India's establishment-sponsored JNU type "secular" historians to promote hindu-muslim same-same concept.

Re: # 1Yea the most popular name is Hinayna, but it is also named as Nihayana, and it is also translated as smaller consciousness.

The difference is of bases as mahayana is the origin of sculpture with figure of Buddhain Gandhara and it is the bases of mahayana religious schol in buddhist tradition.

Re: # 11

http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=77813&Main= 77813

and / or

which carries it from


http://murugan.org/research/gopalapillai.htm

Re: # 6 This word indeed has origins in Buddha , and it originated from the present day Afghanistan and the Great Buddhas of Bamiyan were present there since ages and early Muslims did,nt destroy them. it was extremism and unfounded zeal of Taliban Government which resulted in their unwanton and reckless destruction.

As to b'ut being a word for Idol, it was not initially menat in the old Urdu and related Persian literature, it was used for beautiful and of splendid features.

Majumdar

there is no language called 'Muslim'... there are various laguages spoken by people who are Muslim by faith... In Urdu and most other South Asian languages the word for statue is Moorti... Buth Purust is the name given to the followers of Buddha (in Urdu) buth i presume came from budh...

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Re: # 9
"Indians are a peculiar race. India ignores and forgets."

On the other hand I would charge the Pakistanis to be "peculiar" who want to feign amnesia of the rich harappan, hinu, buddhist and jain past by talking about a "contrived" history that starts with Mohammad Ghouri!!!

Porus, king of the area between the Hydaspes and the Acesines rivers, in India, met Alexander the Great at the Battle of the Hydaspes River in June 326 B.C. Porus brought war elephants with him that terrified the Greeks and their horses. In time, Alexander's troops gained the upper hand and the elephants stampeded their own troops. King Porus surrendered to Alexander

Indians are a peculiar race. India ignores and forgets.[7] “It is a conspiracy of silence.� “India remained unchanged. The wounds of battle were quickly healed: the ravaged fields smile again.[8] “No Indian author, Hindu or Jain or Buddhist makes even the faintest allusion to Alexander or his deeds,� asserted V.A. Smith, and he quotes with approval the lines by Matthew Arnold:


We next come to one of the most interesting facts of history. Chandra Gupta Maurya, the first Emperor of India, while yet a boy, had seen Alexander “the invincible splendid man from the West.� “Later on when he became a great King, Chandra Gupta worshipped Alexander among his Gods.�[26] It appears a curious fact that a Hindu King paid divine honours to a foreign prince whom he had himself beheld.

Re: # 5

You need to read more about Buddhism as a philosophical system before you regurgitate the usual Paki Dawah propaganda!!

Re: # 6

TNT is the dar-ul-harbic view of cultural "identity" so clear in the famous remark of Jinnah that the two nations exists in every gali and muhallahs of muslim neighbourhood!!
The very notion of a "pureland" is based upon exclusion of naji idoaltors.

Mahmood sahib,

I have heard a theory that the Muslim word for statue "But" is derived from the fact that the first statues they saw was that of Buddha (But was corrupted form of Buddha). Is that true or only fanciful?

Mystic,

(overwhelmed by hinduism continuence & INCORPORATION in 4th&5th century c.e. by hindu renniasence..)

As far as incorporation is concerned, you would no doubt be aware that Buddha became an avatar of Vishnu.

Laddu,

What is wrong with the TNT?

Regards

jainism, budhism and sikhism did come into being to relieve hinduism.Of ITS CASTE system and contributed by influence to Hinduism and in turn became minority overwhelmed by hinduism continuence & INCORPORATION in 4th&5th century c.e. by hindu renniasence..

For Buddha, Pratittya Samutpada is the basis of "Samsara" and is one of the "Sats" that humanity must admit. The entire philosophy of Buddhism is based upon the notion of "Samsara" and the cycle of existence that gets unleashed due to karmas and sankalpas. Violence begets its fruits and even Mohamamad must have suffered the fruits of his violent karmas. There is NO intercession by any Allah.

Pakistani situation is a clear example of pratitya samutpada - the hatred of TNT come back to haunt the very proponents. The more Pakistan Islamizes, the more it gets farther from the very philosophy of Buddhism that existed on its soil till it was decimated in typical Islamic genocide.

Any way , thanks for showing those unbroken "buts" that were not disfigured by mistake by the zealots who conquered that region.

Good Pictures but you are an inaccurate at one place.

The Buddha did not achieve Nirvana during his fasting. Rather, he stopped fasting after he heard a music teacher teach his pupil in the boat with this saying, "If you tighten the string too hard, it will break, and if you dont tighten it enough, it will not play".

What happened to this great religion where it originated

The lesser vehicle in Buddhism is the Hinayana, perhaps Nahayana was typo. Nice pictures.