Why the American War on Terror is Failing Miserably

#180/181 Posted by bulleya

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi: / Who removed Sajjad Shah

Don't believe what Najam Sethi says. He's an interested party. Look at the the events. Look at why ISI is saying they intervened as you said. Look at why musharraf says he got him released. Look at the correlations between all the above. MI had picked him up and MI had released him.

As for Sajjad Shah, same as above. Except that perhaps you're unaware of Leghari's role in the whole affair. It was a classic palace intrigue worthy of a case study at Harvard.

zeemax #: "The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible."

hmm.....so nawaz's own explanation is plausible...there is a video of the court being stormed......an actual video....the case was heard, and people were punished.....you can call it hullar baazi or whatever else....the fact is that the supreme court of pakistan was physically stormed by the supporters of nawaz sharif, in an organized fashion.....do you agree or disagree.....


"You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial...."

yes, this is immaterial.......if i go before a judge, does that give me the right to storm his court and remove him, afterwards?....if that is the case, then anyone can appear before the judge and get rid of him, if he discovers he was to rule against him......

did ns get rid of sajjad shah or not?......simple question with a simple answer.......yes he did...... read sajjad's own interview.......

"Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether"

...which govt. was it? please highlight.......i know he was an advisor in leghari's govt. on political affairs.....does pakistan even have the post of national security advisor?...i don't think it does, but i am not sure......but if it does, do highlight when sethi held it.......and even if he did, so what.....he can still go to india and make speeches.....the indian general who planned siachen, comes to pakistan.......should india arrest him?

"Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS"

.....this is getting hilarious........you are truly clinging to straws.... read sethi's own comments .......he, himself, states that ns had him picked up, through punjab police and IB (not MI)......

#182 Posted by bulleya,

Yes, it was a post which was not before Sethi or since. But this was indeed the post he occupied. It was created during one of the interim governments. Do ask Najam Sethi or Jugnu or Salman Taseer. They will confirm it.

#178 Posted by bulleya,

I don't know what Khwaja Saad Rafique says. My point was that Ch. Shujaat, the PM before Shaukat Aziz and an arch enemy of NS now, was the federal interior minister at the time of the incident. Are you saying he was complicit?

The incident was no more than 'Hullar Baazi' over entry passes. This is Nawaz Sharif's own explanation, and it is the most plausible.

...whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....

This is really crazy. You're saying that NS appearing before the same judge whom you accuse NS of removing is immaterial.

Sethi was the National Security adviser during one of the interim governments. I don't remember whether it was Moin Qureshi's or Laghari's. And the charge on him was exactly what I said. He had gone to India in a seminar and had spoken at length trying to prove Pakistan to be a failed state. Thereafter, MI picked him up. It had nothing to do with NS.

I notice you haven't come up with any corruption cases against NS. Given up eh?

All that talk about NS corruption is merely organised disinformation and character assassination. If you consider NS and his brother handed out billions of dollars of contracts on the motorways and the airports plus rebuilding of Lahore, and there's not even a single charge in courts despite musharraf's 8 years of desperate attempts?

Bhai, NS is the only hope for Pakistan, and I will tell you why. This nation needs a national consensus desperately, and NS has obtained that consensus not once but twice during his short and interrupted tenures. One was the NFC award (the federal revenue sharing agreement) which had not been achieved since ZAB, and the other was the 1992 Water accord.

If NS had not been removed in this manner, Kala Bagh Dam would be complete by now.

Besides, his economic liberalization blueprint launched with the Protection of Economic Reforms act - 1992 is still being followed by musharraf throughout his regime.

Pakistan is a very difficult country to govern. One must look at the end results achieved by any ruler rather than on personal limitations and petty idiosyncrasies of the same.

Was Sethi the National Security Advisor:
----------------------------------------

I know Sethi was Sethi, was adviser on Political Affairs and Accountability to the Caretaker Prime Minister......but was he the National Security Advisor, as highlighted by Zeemax......

I didn't even know that Pakistan had the post of national secuirty advisor........there is a national security council, but is their a national security advisor......if anyone has any info on it, please highlight......

Who removed Sajjad Shah - interview:
------------------------------------

Once again, following is fromm Sajjad Shah's own mouth.....he was the cj who was removed by NS......one should note that he was to listen to more than simply contempt of court against ns.......there were corruption cases also......

"Pakistan Today: When you were the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and it came under attack by the Muslim League, there were at least three or four references against Nawaz Sharif pending in your court. Do you have any comments about their credibility?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: Yes, my anxiety at that time was, that the complaints contained allegations of corruption, and the cases should be looked into according to the law. Nawaz Sharif thought, because he was Prime Minister, the cases should not proceed against him. And, you see, the anxiety was that all should be treated equally under the law. He did not want those cases to be heard. That is because he did not believe in the rule of law. If there is no rule of law, then the system would collapse. This is what has happened in the country. there is no rule of law, no respect for it.

Pakistan Today: Your removal was illegitimate, do you think they should offer you your position back?

Justice Sajjad Ali Shah: It is too late. Unless they amend the constitution. And the constitution should not be amended for one person. I want my country to be saved. Pakistan is a great country. I want the country to survive. For that I am prepared to offer my services in any capacity because I want the system to be saved. "

http://www.paktoday.com/shah.htm

Who kidnapped Najam Sethi:
--------------------------

najam sethi wrote his personal accout of how nawaz sharif had him picked up, in his newspaper......i remember reading it.......i will see if i can find it.....following is an article by one of his friends, explaining it, where he quotes an email from sethi.......

"My case was quite bizarre. An armed posse of the Punjab Police and the IB [Intelligence Bureau] smashed its way into my bedroom at 2:30 am on May 8th, 1999, beat up my wife and me, gagged me, blindfolded me, handcuffed me and dragged me away. I was in their custody for many hours.

Then I was handed over to the ISI. The ISI kept me in a safe house first in Lahore and then in Islamabad . It investigated everything, found that the treason charges against me were trumped up politically by the Prime Minister (PM) and then confidentially told me that it was under pressure from the PM to court martial me. But it said that Gen Mush [sic] was against the idea of any military involvement in my case and was telling the PM that the civilians should handle it.

In due course, the ISI actually protected me from the IB which wanted to take me away for a few days and "fix" me at the behest of the PM and Saif ur-Rehman.......It was the ISI's clean chit of health that persuaded the Supreme Court (SC) to put pressure on the civilian government to release me. But within a day of releasing me, the government lodged a case of treason in a civil court against me and tried to arrest me again; but Justice Mamoon Qazi of the SC stepped in and judged that I could not be arrested in any case without the government's first showing the evidence against me to the SC. When I was released, I told the BBC in an interview that the ISI was largely responsible for my well-being.

Incidentally, the so-called "anti-Pakistan" speech that I was supposed to have made in India, which was the basis of the charge against me, was the same speech that I had made at the National Defence College in Islamabad earlier on the basis of which I had duly received a formal letter from the NDC commending me for having obtained the "highest marks ever" from the NDC for a presentation before the college.

The real reason why I was arrested by Nawaz Sharif had to do with a BBC documentary in which I had taken part, exposing the corruption of the PM. I was interviewed by the BBC in Pakistan two days before I left for India . The IB found out and informed the PM. Saif ur-Rehman called me and asked what I had told the BBC. I told him: "everything." "Negative or positive?" he asked. "Is there anything positive in your regime?" I replied. "We will get you," he warned.

That was that. They used the India thing to try and silence and discredit me so that my BBC testimony would be rejected by the people. Then they took the BBC to court in London for potential libel and threatened to close down its operations in Pakistan if the film was shown to Pakistani audiences. Then a “settlement” took place between the two parties--the BBC film was subsequently shown in the UK but never in South Asia . Before showing the film in the UK, the BBC asked me whether I wanted to censor or edit my statements against the PM in the film in view of what had happened. I said “no.” Everything I said was on the record and should be shown.

When Saif ur-Rehman was arrested in 1999 after the coup, he got his wife to phone me and ask for my "forgiveness." Later, Shahbaz Sharif called from exile and claimed he had never been a party to my ordeal and apologised on behalf of the Sharif family. Nawaz Sharif's son Hussain met me in London two years [later] and also apologised. Other members of that government have also apologised. But Nawaz is still silent.

http://hnn.us/articles/3968.html

hamidm mian #: "first he says that he was in the airforce, now he turns around and tells us that one of his 'course mates' with the initials 'nh' is going to take over the army ..... i am confused - we need to do some research on this guy"

hmm....the three forces train together now......have been doing so for 25 years or more........cadets are exchanged between the three training institutes.......not sure if this is still going on.......but during our days, there were plans of making one large joint academy, so as a precursor, they combined all the training for the first two years......

hope that clarifies.....if it still doesn't, then i think you are simply trying to find some issue on which to prove me wrong......you will have to try much harder than this, i am afraid.......

zeemax #: "In fact, the disturbance was over supporters with passes.....They tried to force their way in. There was no 'Storming of SC'...."

this is totally untrue......the mob that stormed the supreme court was led by nawaz sharif's mna from lahore.....his name is khwaja saad rafiq.......i met him, myself, with a few people, and he told us the story......he lives in lcchs lahore....pls ask him, if you can get in touch with him.....

he said they had gathered there to protest......however, things got out of control, and they ended up storming the supreme court......i am not sure where you heard the story about passes.....

"And he was also the only sitting Prime Minister EVER to appear before a judge in person when summoned..."

this has nothing to do with the issue....he had the cj removed......sajjad shah was removed, through a breakup of the supreme court by ns......this is a fact.....whether he appeared or not, is immaterial.....if we use this logic, then musharraf actually follwed a cj ruling against him.....

"No one has ever been jailed for contempt."

i said removed, not jailed......ns would have been removed from power; at worst......however, his party would have still been in power, and they could have elected a new pm.....democracy would have prospered.....

basically, ns did the same thing musharraf did.......removed the cj when he was to rule against him........and ns went after the press, when it criticised him.......

"No. It was the Military intelligence which picked him up.."

pls read sethi's own account of the incidence.....he says everything was done by ns......there is no law that says a person cannot go to india and say pakistan is a failed state.......is there? ......although i don't remember seeing this word in his speech.....and was he the national security advisor in leghari's govt?

let's not get carried away.......lets stick to facts.....ns is no angel......the guy has done much of what musharraf has done.......both need to be out......as should bb....

Benazir gives green light to PPP workers to Participate in Elections without a constitution. There's no end to kanjarpana.

In the meantime:

Geo TV website under another DDoS attack:

KARACHI: Geo TV website came under DDoS attack for the second time at around 8pm on Wednesday, after which a very significant source of information is temporarily disconnected.

These kanjars have code coolies too !

majumdar #175 If these wargames were timed without thought to the situation across the border, then as an Indian you should be very worried about what they were thinking.

On your question on "casus beli", I think I already described that earlier (i.e. western fears of Pakistan nuclear bombs falling into al qaeda hands in case of an all out civil war in Pakistan).

On your question on how the current trouble neutralizes nukes - I didnt say it "neutralizes" them. I am saying that under one possible scenario (i.e. all out civil war where the Pakistan Army itself is divided into pro- and anti-Musharraf groups), these bombs could fall into al qaeda hands. Of course, events would have to take a particular course for this "nightmare scenario" to arise - i.e. Musharraf continuing his disastrous course, the opposition taking more and more to the streets, soldiers refusing to kill any more demonstrators.

Of course one hopes that Musharraf will change from being "oversmart and overambitious" to just plain smart and realize his game is up. Or that the opposition is able to keep the demonstrations peaceful even as Musharraf's police continue to bloody their heads every time there is a demonstration. But if that doesnt happen, then this nightmare scenario becomes a possibility.

Tahmed sahib,

(But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant)

Sadly I am not expert on military affairs having failed to graduate beyond Commando Comics but really we need to find out whether the current war games were a part of a long drawn scheudle of exercises or a sudden afterthought. Also I understand that neighbouring countries are informed well in advance.

(if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war. )

If that is the case what would be the casus belli? And how does the current trouble neutralise the Paki nukes?

Re: 172 I think it is very far fetched, I think the Pakis are getting too pessimistic. I am not understating the seriousness of the whole situation- without any doubt it is the worst since 1971, but pakistan is nowhere near a meltdown stage.

Regards

majumdar #173 Yes, you mentioned that earlier. But please note that the timing of wargames is also considered significant - if they are undertaken during troubled times, then they are often seen as an indication of preparations for war.

I am not saying that the scenario indicated in #172 is certain by any means. But it could happen if Musharraf continues in his disastrous course of insisting on absolute power and the popular opposition to Musharraf refuses to accede to his demands - which could lead to all out civil war in Pakistan. In which case NATO forces to the west may very well team up with Indian forces to the east in order to prevent nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands.

Tahmed sahib,

(and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

How many times do I have to tell you this- Wargames are nothing but keep fit exercises, particularly relevant in India since our army does not get any by way of storming courts and climbing the gates of PM house.

Regards

HP #169 There is no doubt that there could be consequences of the current turmoil in Pakistan that neither the "oversmart" dictator nor anyone struggling for democracy could have foreseen. After all, history teaches us that civil wars and strife can lead to unexpected consequences. Thus: No doubt that fears of Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into Al Qaeda hands (who could then use them to destroy entire cities, since destruction is all they are capable of) is a key western concern today, and it would be surprising if counter-measures are not being considered. Our friends in India would no doubt be jumping at the opportunity to join in any such action (and the Indian military has used this time to play "wargames" across the border).

So, if Jinnah made Pakistan, Musharraf and his desire for power may very well destroy Pakistan (i.e. nuclear weapons taken away, Pakistan reduced militarily with India then becoming the unchallenged military power in the region).

This sounds far-fetched, I know. But it is a very real possibility.

#160 Posted by tahmed32,

Romair is an amiable enough person who does not fly of the handle at the drop of a hat

Yeah tell me about it. After his misinformed rant based solely on organized character assassination of NS, he teaches me the definition of an idiot !!!

It may not be flying off the handle, but it is certainly akin to shoving up a broom handle and pretending to be a peacock (mor) !!!