Pakistan: Media Under Siege

Beena,

Can somebody provide a list of these jounalists

still in custody? They should all be released shortly.


The "Siege" is not supposed to last very long.

Musharraf is not Zia (Thank God for small favours).


Pakistanis today will not put up with nonsense.

I expect Geo to be back on soon. But the Pakistani

Channels need to report more and concentrate less on

creating public opinion and trying to help in regime

change. That should be left to elections.

Never in recent memory has a Pakistani ruler done so much damage to his credibility and to his possible legacy in such a short time frame! The Mushy's vacillating ways (including those related to his treatment of the media) provide more clear an insight into the muddle-headed thought process of the individual than any amount of scholarly analysis could ever had yielded. With each passing day, his pathetically plaintive exclamations of "It is not about me but about the country!" sound hollower still. The man is a walking caricature, a stick figure made entirely of lies who lives in his bubble world of make-believe carefully shielded by sycophants hankering after a few crumbs of power and determinedly propped up by a barely-covered line of bayonets held by the strongest mafia in today's world - the Pakistani khakis. Muzzling the media in this day and age is so inconceivable that no individual with an iota of the touch of reality would expect to get away with it in any corner of this world - but the Mushy's grasp of what is and what is not real seems to have slipped away into a world of his own making.

Re: # 2

bj,

....... you can post all the pictures you want !....... i couldn't agree with you more ......

Re: # 2

Well said. And unfortunately his is the liberal, moderate, secular face of Pakistan. At least Taliban practice what they preach.

Ras -- what about Aitzaz Ahsan -- first to be arrested last to be released?

Re: # 4

urstruly,

...... be thankful for small blessings - at least he is not blowing up video stores, burning audio cassesttes, and beheading journalists after jumaa prayers ..... we are caught between the devil and mo of mecca .........

#2 bjkumar: In other words, he would fit right in here on chowk with the rest of us weirdos. :-)

Re: # 6 Posted by hamidm2 on November 23, 2007 4:37:08 pm

[we are caught between the devil and mo of mecca .........]

sorry, but there is no need for such a comment.

Re: # 8

bubba,

.... i was just trying to illustrate the dilemma of choosing between two equally bad options ........ you can pick your own metaphor

hamidm #9 Hobson's Choice perhaps?

Hopeful words from the Kayani (addressing Staff College, Quetta): “Ultimately it is the will of the people and their support that is decisive. It is critical that Pakistan Army’s efforts are backed by the nation,”.

Pressure from within the military, more than anything else, may be putting an end to Musharraf's insane quest to remain military chief and president indefinitely.

tahmad #:" Pressure from within the military, more than anything else, may be putting an end to Musharraf's insane quest to remain military chief and president indefinitely..."

i don't know of any pressure, ever, from within the miliary of ending martial law.....why would the military want to end it, when all of a sudden, it becomes the ruling class.....

.......the only pressure, from within, would be to end the bombing of waziristan and swat and to stop supporting the americans so outrightly.....in fact, even the second is somewhat debatable, as supporting the americans, results in a lot of gains for the military......but the first is a definite.......

........you need to understand the training and psyche of the military......i will write about it later......but briefly, the financially corrupt amongst the military like martial law, because it consolidates the financial holdings of the military.......the financially honest like it because, they geninunely feel that it is only the army that can save pakistan........

i think musharraf falls into the second category, though he is now starting to really enjoy the benefits of the first category also, in terms of prestige and privelage.........i think he is psychologically convinced that only he can save pakistan and is unable to see the damage he is doing.....

there is a cultural mindset that is developed from day one in the military.......you are taught that civilians are useless opportunists, who will take everything from pakistan and will then move to michigan at the drop of a hat.....and that they cannot be trusted......by the time a person becomes a general he is totally brainwashed.......

.......you need to notice that (other than hamid gul) not one general or air marshall, serving or retired, has protested or resigned........

so i wouldn't count on general kayani, too much........musharraf has chosen him from one hundred generals.......kayani will only change directions, if he feels there is a mutiny brewing in the military due to waziristan and swat actions, or if the political and corporate interests of the military are being affected, i.e. musharraf is becoming too weak and a liability.......

the first could happen........for the second, the judiciary and the political parties had to remain united.......the judiciary did remain united.........however, the political parties are totally broken and opportunistic........all benazir has to do is to boycott elections and it is curtains for musharraf.......if fazl joins in, it is totally curtains.......but i doubt that will happen.....

so the hosni mubarak scenario is looking likely........the army, maulvis and feudals just want power......as long as they have it, i really don't think it matters much to them, what happens to democracy........nawaz sharif is speaking up, because he has nothing to lose........the guy barely has a few seats......ppp has a lot to lose, if it boycotts......the cases against bb won't get dropped and ppp will lose out on a majority of seats.....mqm will lose out of control on karachi, if it boycotts.....and jui for the first time having tasted power, will lose it.....

only the lawyers and media in pakistan are truly a democratically based group with clear direction.......

Re: # 5 Nasah

Has Aitzaz Ahsan been released finally. I haven't heard it on any nws channel.

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I may be wrong in my presumption.
Debacle of East Pakistan happened because of democracy, without regard to the situation on ground. What does that mean? Bengalis were in numerical superiority. But Industrialist, Beaureaucracy and Army were derived from West Pakistan. Bengalis felt exploited. Although West Pakistan has been able to keep its hold on East Pakistan. In a situation like this, the best solution would have been to realize the situation and rather than continuing to keep a hold by Army rule, a form of confederation would have prevented the debacle. Or East Pakistan should have been told to part way peacefully when West Pakistani elite had exploited it for nearly 23 years already.
What is the current situation. Mohajir and Punjabi is not at a loss. Nor is NWFP. It is mainly the infight between between ruling elite. For example between Nawaz Sharif et al and chowdry brothers et al with no change in situation of common man whether one comes or another. It is more like taking sides and deciding who is less corrupt. The same situation exist in rural Sind. It is only a matter which party platform the same people would be elected. The people mainly at loss are Sardars in Baluchistan who feel their hold is getting weak and incursion by army. It is very important that common Baluch need to be given more autonomy in their internal affairs so that they feel part of Baluchistan and Pakistan.
The problem appears to me mainly in NWFP. As far as I can see Pathans have been integerated somewhat and felt comfortable in Pakistan as they saw the advantage. But the other influences right now there are Taliban/ AlQaeda, American interest in the region and Indian influence through Karzai. In my opinion, and it depends upon the perspective which side you are, Taleban needs to be told in a clear term that they would not be allowed to foment secession from Pakistan.
In this scenario, last thing we want is anarchy. Moreover as I have tried to analyse the situation before. This infighting between have and havenots among ruling elite, meaning people's party, Muslim League (Q) and PML (N) is not going to change the situation in a dramatic way.
I will agree in current situation with the dispensation that whoever wants to serve their constituency, let them serve, rather than take the fight on street in which nobody seems to be interested. Rather than opening the door for further problems in Baluchistan and NWFP where there is main problem let the elected people there be involved and given chance to serve their constituency.
As far as media. Its hold needs to be broken where it can only create anarchy with the help of few people. Giving the impression in the whole world as if the common man is behind them.
Important thing at this point would be to build the institutions. What the CJ was doing was to bring the revolution, without any realities on ground. That means all that exercise would have resulted in no change in overall situation until and unless someone is interested in breakup of Pakistan.
What about the human rights, independent press, independent judiciary etc. That is a long fight. CJ was told that he need not be proactive and that was precisely the reason he was sacked. (Moreover CJ himself was having some baggage with him). 1977 has changed a lot of things. If democracy was not derailed at that time we would have been much advanced. Neither am I against people demonstrating or struggling for these. But anarchy is the last thing we want.

#15 Posted by krashid1961

Taleban needs to be told in a clear term that they would not be allowed to foment secession from Pakistan.

Haha. If there was an ROTFL icon, I would post it here.

The 'enlightened' ones still don't know how far their little iceberg they're happily riding on has melted beneath their fat asses, and soon it will be gone altogether leaving only water to drown-in underneath.

V for Vendetta ffrom P the Pervert Pervez.

Aitzaz Ahsan has not been released -- he will be brought in shackles and chains to file the nomination papers for a "free, Fair and a Transparent election" -- under martial law -- for O the opposition ONLY -- by P the Pervert Pervez.

#12 bulleye: you say "i don't know of any pressure, ever, from within the miliary of ending martial law"

Ayub ("Tum say pehlay jo aikh shaksh yahan takht nasheen thaa, Oos ko bhi khuda honay kaa Itnaa hee yaqeen thaa") Khan, 1969;

Yahya, 1971 (he even had an "acceptance speech" written up to announce his continuation as President, but was dissuaded);
Zia ("Sir, yeh aamoN ki paeti aap kay liyay haazir hai", said ??) ul Haq, 1988.

further to #18: of the three dictators, only the one receiving the "aamoN ki paeti" was the one was removed from power by some unknown party that most likely was not the Pakistan military.

Zeemax:
Not enlightenment. That is bad word.
Progress is the key word.
Look at the world history. Islam had utility as long as it contributed to progress. That job was taken care of by Europe and it may shift if European philosophy starts hindering it. To me that is the fact.
Taleban may be successful who knows. But so far their only Government in Afghanistan continued busy fighting their own people.

#20 Posted by krashid1961 ,

Yeah ... remind me of world history. And please do take out all the volumes of world history and read them from cover to cover. And then wonder how come Taliban control 54% of Afghanistan after being bombed for six years by G7 combined.

Let me know when you find out how to defeat them.

...add on...

Oh I forgot. You already said "Taleban needs to be told in a clear term that they would not be allowed to foment secession from Pakistan."

Yeah. That's a good solution. Have you tried it yet?

Better not. They will behead you.

Is hamidm2 around? I'ld like to discuss Nawaz's return with him :)

(I can't believe I'm actually looking to talk to that apostate)

Re: # 11

Your type is begging right now that someone in shinning armour shows up again and save the status quo of this murderous shamefull system

Demonstration and hunger strike protest Musharraf's actions
Jonathan Curiel, San Francisco Chronicle
Saturday, November 24, 2007

..In the next two weeks, Pakistani Americans are staging a series of Bay Area protests - all designed to vent frustration with Musharraf and the United States' continued financial support for him, despite his sacking of Pakistan's judiciary and his emergency-rule order.

"Right now," Cemendtaur said of Musharraf, "he has such a strong backing from Bush that he thinks he's indispensable. ... Until everything is back to where it was on Nov. 2, we're not making too much progress."

Separate from today's Union Square protest, several Bay Area members of another Pakistan political party, Pakistan Tehreek-E-Insaf, are planning a one-day hunger strike today in solidarity with protesters in Pakistan.
...
Today's rally
-- Organizers: Bay Area members of the Pakistan Peoples Party, the largest opposition group in Pakistan

-- When: 3-5 p.m.

-- Where: Union Square

-- Why: The demonstration is a call for fair elections in Pakistan


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/BALCTI 2S8.DTL&hw=musharraf&sn=001&sc=1000

urstruly: I was reporting on a fact, which is not the same as begging for a savior. Or do you deny that how the Pakistani military views Musharraf may perhaps have some relevance to the current crisis?

What can the US do? What pressure can the US apply? Can anyone elaborate?

#27 Posted by bubba,

Why should USA want to apply any pressure?

Re: # 23

zeemax mian,

.... ji, farmaye ? ..... even though after this latest case of turnsherwani by nawaz sharif i have given up all hope and have decided to apply for indian citizenship, i am still curious about what you think ........

anil kumble zindabad !
shoaib malik murdabad !

Beena,
The voice of the Journalists, some idealist lawyers and political activists are but a single voice in the wilderness. Who cares. Both Aaj and ARY are back without their sting. There have been no mass rallies by political parties to support the activism of lawyers and journalists and soon it will be sab acha after the elections. This movement too will be resigned to attics like the MRD. Nonetheless there have to be some who keep ticking away. Some day it will happen.
----------------------------------------------------
Romair,
I totally disagree with your thesis on the military. I feel the strings are atached to Kargil and its just self preservation.

everyone must play by the rules except al-lah's unwashed warriors

ISLAMABAD: Former Pakistani premier Nawaz Sharif came to an "understanding" with senior officials ahead of his planned return Sunday from exile, an informed government source said while talking to a French news agency.

Sharif met Pakistani intelligence chief Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj and a close aide to Musharraf in Saudi Arabia where the former premier has been living in exile for the past seven years.

The meeting followed Musharraf's own talks there with Saudi King Abdullah, which a Pakistani official said included the issue of Sharif's return.

"He is returning under some understanding and we hope he sticks to it," a senior federal government official said while talking to an international news agency.

"He must go by the rules and not indulge in confrontational politics."

#29 Posted by hamidm2,

Haha ... thanks for showing up.

No, it appears entire APDM minus Fazlur Rahman is going to boycott. Just heard Shahbaz Sharif's interview on BBC Urdu Service Radio as well as Qazi Hussain.

What do you think?

I just read your #31. Yes there's surely some understanding, but what can it be? You say "He must go by the rules and not indulge in confrontational politics.". Would boycotting violate that understanding?

Amazing or what. All that hot air taken out in just a matter of few weeks. Gone are the long marches, masquerades, protests and those who were leading the idiots have turned their attention to that farcical election.

Once again, people of Pakistan are being led down the same path of deception, false hopes and promises that will never be fulfilled.

Establishment is supreme and the pillars of power remain strong as ever. I pity those poor souls that really believe change is coming, maybe this time it will be different? Aint gonna happen.

There seems to be two routes to achieve change, one that is propagated by tampax ie talibanization or cannabalization of Pakistan; then the other is dismemberment of this most painfully artificial federation. As long as we have western forces stationed in this region we can forget the former, the latter seems more probable an event.

Hamid's post ""He is returning under some understanding and we hope he sticks to it," a senior federal government official said while talking to an international news agency.

"He must go by the rules and not indulge in confrontational politics." "


American "democracy" at its best. Predetermine the campaigns, predetermine the issues, predetermine the candidates, predetermine their behavior, and then watch the rats run around in a cage and imagine they have all the freedom in the world, and then define that as democracy which the rest of the world needs to emulate.....or they will be mercilessly butchered by America's military might...

Hamid's post ""He is returning under some understanding and we hope he sticks to it," a senior federal government official said while talking to an international news agency.

"He must go by the rules and not indulge in confrontational politics." "


American "democracy" at its best. Predetermine the campaigns, predetermine the issues, predetermine the candidates, predetermine their behavior, and then watch the rats run around in a cage and imagine they have all the freedom in the world, and then define that as democracy which the rest of the world needs to emulate.....or they will be mercilessly butchered by America's military might...

Tahmed's recent plagirised ilog in which he writes "Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Ta ke your spouse out to dinner. Play another 18. There will always be time to clean the house and fix the disposal. Take care of the golf balls first--the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."


As usual this peon of the West is trying to legitimize US barbarism, and if you are smart you'll recognize that by his example he wants people to consider "important", what affects them only and now what affects their wider society and millions like them. He wants them to have false consciousness and not "class" consciousness so that they continue in their slavery to the elite that runs away with everything including their unfilfilled lives of misery chasing $$ and dreams which are phantoms that they never attain. IT is the sand and the pebbles, the wider social structure that lodges and dislodges the "golf balls", pay acute attention to it and to your fellow human beings other than your family as well, then you will realize that these problems you face regarding the golf balls have their origin in wider social and global structures on top of which sits a barbarous elite....

know your enemy, who wants you to be cheerfully preoccupied with things that will ensure that nothing changes for you and the benefits keep accruing to the elite that rules over you mercilessly in a global system in which things of consequence proceed from the decision or criminal neglect by an elite that holds the strings and the controls of global institutions.....know your enemy who will stab you in the back because he has sold his soul to the Western elite, know tahmed...

Re: # 33

zeemax mian,

........ to be honest, i really don't care any more ....... if i wasn't a drinking man already, this would have driven me to drink

...... apdm without maulana fazloo is what? ..... imran khan (party of one - he can't even get a dinner date), qazi hussain (party of four mullahs - just enough to haram a chicken or ruin a kid's cirumcision), pml-n (mustafa khar does a better job at keeping his wives from running off than they do at keeping their 'members' in the fold)......

........ as long as ppp, maulana fazloo, mqm and the quisling league take part in the elections, musharraf can claim victory for democracy and make the 'opposition' irrelevant ...... and the majority of the people, who are sick and tired of sloganeering and distrustful of all politicians, will go along with him ......... the media and the lawyers will also grab at the bones that will be thrown their way and call off their schoolboy protests ......

........ i don't think nawaz sharif will want to run the risk of becoming irrelevant and will end up contesting the elections ...... only poor javed hashmi will be back in jail and the sharif brothers won't even come to visit him ........ the only sharif in pakistan is babra sharif - god bless her ..........

in #37 read "what affects them only and now what affects their wider society and millions like them..."

as "what affects them only and not what affects their wider society and millions like them

p.s: Also note this very familiar trend in the impersonal messages of the peons of the West, they always end with a "personal" note of "coffee with friends", revealing how everything in a society where human worth is based on mere "use value" is manipulated for ulterior motive. Coffee with friends is the residual after you alienate yourself from everything but your immediate family concerns, the plastic friendships that are presented in a warm and fuzzy manner for such manipulation reflect a society in which people are deeply alienated from others, from its entire life scence, work as well as leisure and finally from itself: There you have the Western heaven: a human graveyard where nothing is sacred except the need to garnish maximum benefit for yourself, individuation to the extreme, at the expense of everything else and so when the full circle is made you whore yourself to the highest bidder as well.....Know your enemy who wants to rob you of your humanity, know tahmed.....

In # 40 read "from its entire life scence," as

from the entire life scene,


Indeed, humankind (on a global level) in this world dominated by the US elite are in a state of perpetual loss, just as stated in the Quran, except for the socially conscious....develop that consciousness even though you can't change society, at least you can liberate yourself from such a pathetically enslaved existance....

hamidm #39 the Chief Justice has already won even as chowk geniuses are declaring the democracy movement dead. Reason: the key issue which caused Musharraf to try and bully (and then "fire") the Chief Justice was the Mush getting a rubber stamp from the Supreme Court to wear the uniform and be president at the same time. Today, he dares not ask even the rubber stamps he has sitting in the SC for this favor!!

Once the general is separated from his uniform, he is a paper tiger swimming with the sharks (to mix metaphors again).

So - as Churchill said, in case of victory, you drink because you have earned it and in case of defeat you drink because you need it. So go ahead and drink if you wish - but do it for the right reason. To celebrate.

tahmed writes "Once the general is separated from his uniform, he is a paper tiger ..."

Plagirism is the hallmark of this peon of the West.Having weak and low morals he copies and borrows ideas of others and presents them as his own but at the same time does not have the brains to realize that these points that he borrows put his "gods" the US elite in a bad light. Like a snake he slithers past any blame to them as if they are non existant in this entire game:

All along when he was singing praises of the CJ and the emergency being declared to get rid of him, I was saying its all about saving the uniform and not the presidency because the power,thanks to the Americans, is with the uniform, and they don't want to overthrow the man in the uniform at the top otherwise they risk losing an army which they don't want to, and so they will strip him of his uniform before he gets cut to pieces by an army that does their bidding. Now, the guy hasn't given up his uniform has he? That is why he declared the emergency to keep it and unless Negroponte's ultimatum was not received by him, he wont give it up. So either way he's finished...

As you can see tahmed/hamid duo or thier followers have red flagged my posts. Probably the chowk staff, their partners in crime, will ban me because I tried to talk social consciousness and not being a selfish manipulative ______ as tahmed's ilog was encouraging you to be. For that reason they are going to lock me out, they are going to ban me. So be it, if you see no posts from me for the next few days, you'll know the reason why, just as you now know your enemy, the one who will stab you in the back, tahmed....

tahmed writes "So go ahead and drink if you wish - but do it for the right reason. To celebrate."

Easy for an expat to say sitting in the human dumpyard, there is nothing to celebrate in Pakistan, there is misery all around, the air in the cities is hardly breathable, there is poverty all around, the CJ and his cronies live lives of luxury as do the generals and the politicians that are allowed to operate. The US games and manipulations have taken the soul out of the people and drained the blood out of our land. That for tahmed is "celebration", for me as well as for the people who survive here its one crisis after another, one trauma after another and a living human hell....

goodnight

masadi,

BTW we're still waiting for that rocket for musharraf with Mullah's name on it but made in USA, which you had been predicting since Lal Masjid. Is it still on the way?

masadi: dont blame hamidm - i red-flagged your posts.

rf786# :"There seems to be two routes to achieve change, one that is propagated by tampax ie talibanization or cannabalization of Pakistan; then the other is dismemberment of this most painfully artificial federation..."

...as much as i would like to disagree with you, i am afraid your analysis may well be correct....

....as long as i have been on this site, i have, totally, opposed those pushing secularism and those pushing islamism.....when one starts pushing such ideas, as the ultimate end, in a country like pakistan, which is (was) neither islamist nor secular, one ends up polarizing the society....

this is exactly what has happened in pakistan.....there is one group, which can sell enlightened moderation, with or without ethics....and their is another, which can sell islamism with or without ethics.....

.......now both are each others throats......one has the support of the usa, the other has the support of afghanistan.....and, unfortunately, they are fighting their war in pakistan, now......

.......musharraf may be able to get through his second coup (if he can get bb to go along), however, what is going to get him is his gwot support to the usa....pakistan military will attack waziristan and the waziristanis will attack rawalpindi......again and again.......neither side can win.....in the process, pakistan will lose.......

the above will lead to the dismemberment of pakistan.....

......the other possibility was that the religious right would take over, as the liberal elements are totally discredited.......however, now with the antics of jui, even the religious right is discredited.......this leaves the violent religious extreme right....if they get control, then it will talibanization........

p.s. one really has to feel for the members of ppp....ppp has been, traditionally, the main anti-establishment party in pakistan......they have leaders that have spent years in jail, under musharraf.....musharraf did everything to get them to change parties, but they didn't, while pml leaders switched in droves.....now all of a sudden, ppp walas find bb making deals with the same musharraf.....

Massaddi Mian:

You have nothing to add to your rants, and abusive language of calling names.

This has been a very powerful coup, to secure top executive job of the President to be for the military man for now and forceable future. For the west, it secures the nuclear trigger. Nothing more.

Romair is correct in his assessment that it is much like Egypt and Hosni Mubarak.

Give a break from ranting of bankrupt ideologies, and abusive language, only then your powerful mind will see that the future is beyond these. Yes it includes your future too.

anil #: "For the west, it secures the nuclear trigger. Nothing more..."

....i would separate the usa from the west.......the non-usa west is totally against this coup....they are calling it a martial law, and have kicked pakistan out of the commonwealth....they have spoken out totally against this govt....

unfortunately, the usa has always had a very short-sighted view of things.....most of their policy makers for these regions and bumbling idiots.....they are making another mistake here...take a look at their track record.....

1. iran is one islamic country that has so much in common with the usa....the usa went overboard in supporting the shah, and look what they have ended up with.......

2. egypt is another country which would have had good relations with the usa.......they went overboard in supporting israel and hosni, and look what they are up against.....egypt is the intellectual center of anti-american islamic movements.....

3. the usa has gone to the extreme in supporting the saudi kings.......and look what they have ended up with.......the financial and religious center of anti-americanism is saudi arabia.....

4. they are doing the same in lebanon.....overdoing support for israel and the pro-west lebanese govt.....in the process, hezbollah and nasar are, according to surveys, the most popular groups in muslim countries.....

5. they went overboard in supporting israel and aligning with israel, and now hamas cannot lose an election......to the point that the usa is now ready to support, its old adversary ....fateh....

6. and now they are doing the same in pakistan.....supporting musharraf to the point that he is going to bring down the whole liberal side of pakistan.....mqm is already with him and they are nudging ppp towards him........anyone with musharraf will be totally discredited....

this will leave a vacuum.......if the americans are lucky, it will be filled by people like imran khan.....who are anti-usa foreign policy (like i am), but not militantly nor ideologically......however, if they are unlucky then the vacuum will be filled by the religious extreme right, as that may remain the only vehicle through which people will be able to voice their complaints......

this short term policy of the usa is going to wipe out the liberal forces from the mainstream of pakistan.......

egypt is a time-bomb waiting to explode against the usa....the moment hosni goes, the islamic brotherhood may become undefeatable there......pakistan is being turned into a similar time bomb.......

Romair:

You may like to isolate the U.S., but the west has a connected spectrum of policies for the oil rich region of the world. Could it be that what you call "time bombs" is really part of the strategy for that eventuality when things really get out of control and a conforming specturm of policies does not produce the desired result.

What is really needed is a replacement of Belfour Declaration. Realignment of international law, where there is truly are global energy assets, and peoples living over (oil), with (nuclear) and under cannot (yes, technology is there to cast permanent shadow over a part, and deny solar energy) disrupt access to these energy assets from the humans. Muslims countries will do better to denounce violence and desist anyone mixing Islam with what is pure unadulterated terror. Just my view.

Re elections
Don't boycott the elections, is my advice to Pakistanis in Pakistan as an Injun. Musharrafs may come and Musharrafs may go but elections last for 5 years and must be fought giving no walk over to anyone. If the next govt doesn't have the legitimacy of a well fought election(rigged or not) then there will be nothing which US or Saudis or Martians will be able to do to help such a govt keep the peace.

Romair:

On the other points that you bring out, and my views. Just look at the composition of the invitees to the middle east - Arab / Israeli conflict conference being organized at Annapolis.

Brazil is invited / Mexico has been kept out. India has been invited. What do you really think Brazil and India can do as invitees, and Mexico can do without being invited. They have need for the energy, Mexico does not. Blair may be the new Lawerence of Arabia - just that Blair is not gay - is probably the closest difference with the original lawerence of Arabia.

On Massaddi Mian - for all we know he may be the agent on the ground. If you were running the intelligence agency, would you select Hamidm, Tahmed sahibs. This man, Massaddi mian, is smart. Provides perfect cover with his diatribes. He was first with a business school or college, that could have risked exposure. Therefore, fired and moved to some smaller college, where he can be easily being paid. His coming to Chowk is part of his cover. His abusive langauge and insistence on bankrupt ideology, for all the smarts that he has, is too much of a give away.

There was a similar smart man planted by Pakistani High Commission at the campus where I was student in England dueing Bangladesh war. We confronted him with, after that he showed up only a couple of times and then vanished into the thin air, just as he appeared to talk which just did not match with his intellect and smarts.

Zeemax:
Progress is the only constant.
Taleban etc are temporary phases.
At one time they were controlling more than this. then what.
Even if they stop progress of their region, they cannot stop it in other parts of world.
As Galileo said "Whether I say that earth does not rotate around sun, It will continue to do so."
Beheading me by Taliban is going to do what. 1 person less in a 6 billion population. Who cares.

I had an interesting discussion with an Iranian colleague yesterday about Muslims rioting in Kolkata demanding that Taslima Nasreen be deported. This guy is an Iranian "intellectual" - he calls himself "non-religious".

I was telling him how appalling it is that the famously "saccular" Lalu-supported, Sonia-led Indian government, the Rajasthan government, and the "fiercely independent and secular" West Bengal government have exposed how beholden they are to Muslims and to Islamism (I won't use the word "communal" Muslims, because that would be a tautology - the HUGE majority's vote is what these politicians are afraid of).

This Muslim "intellectual" told me that in reply - "WHY did she have to write what she wrote in the first place"? I tried to explain to him that if someone allegedly abuses freedom of speech, that should be dealt with in a civilized manner through the legal process. NOBODY should be living under the threat of bodily harm from ANY group. This, unfortunately, was too much for him to comprehend. He kept repeating - "But WHY did she have to write it?"

It reinforced in my mind the point that there CANNOT be any Muslim who is also secular and rational. At the end of the day, they have their societal pressures to "pray", attend the Mullah's mosque, and are thus obliged at the end of the day to toe the party line.

Buddhadeb Bhattacharya and his "secular" communists have the problem of their life on their hands. They made the deal with the devil when they allowed miilions of illegal Muslims to come across the border from Bangladesh and granted them ration cards illegally for their votes . Now they have to pay the devil it's due. Muslims are now 25% of the population, and growing way out of proportion to the rest of the population.

It will be interesting to see how the "secular" Sonia/Lalu/Buddhadeb government deals with this.

And it's going to get a lot worse in the years to come.

Get your popcorn and grab a seat. Unless you are unfortunate enough to live in West Bengal. Because then, your life is going to be on the line. Just wait a few years.

Correction.

I meant "tow" the party line

#56 this is not the kolkata board. go spread your misery on the kolkata board.

Re: # 48 Posted by tahmed32 on November 24, 2007 9:53:09 am

[masadi: dont blame hamidm - i red-flagged your posts.] Thank you for red flagging masadi's posts. Indeed his posts have objectionable content. Could you now please start flagging Romair's post as well? His lengthy posts do not contribute anything, except for his pomposity.

Ajeya:
I don't think you can comprehend a Muslim mind.
Secular does not mean to disrespect ones prophet. Nor is it right. He had the right question. Why does she have to write. To proof that she is non religious and antiprophet.
What is so "SECULAR" and "RATIONAL" about teasing ones religion or sacred people. What would you do if someone badmouth your mother or father. Will he/she show "SECULARISM" and "RATIONALITY"

#54 anil: your premise that masadi may be an agent is certainly plausible - every time there is a discussion on the serious crisis Pakistan is going through, he floods chowk with posts geared to make chowk posters (myself, quite often) critical of the musharraf government the issue.

However, while thanking you for pointing this out, I think the answer is simpler than you may think - masadi is simply a self-important jahil who can only do what jahils do, namely throw insults at others. I say this because I doubt if any agency would bother with this pitiful little corner of the internet - they have bigger things to worry about.

So much for masadi and his diatribes.

I would be interested what you think of my view that Musharraf has already lost even as he is busy imprisoning people right and left, pulling the plug on the media - see my post #42 below.

#59 bubba: "pomposity" does not violate chowk guidelines. :-)

krashid: i think you will find the kolkata board more relevant to this subject. it would be nice to keep this board focussed on the serious crisis pakistan is engulfed in. thanks.

Re: #58 by tahmed32

[#56 this is not the kolkata board. go spread your misery on the kolkata board]

It's all the same board, my friend. The disease is one. The symptoms are many.

No. The disease is not Danish Cartoonists. Not Taslima Nasreen. Or VHP suicide bombers.

It's Islam.

#60 Posted by krashid1961

[Ajeya:
I don't think you can comprehend a Muslim mind.
Secular does not mean to disrespect ones prophet. Nor is it right. He had the right question. Why does she have to write. To proof that she is non religious and antiprophet.
What is so "SECULAR" and "RATIONAL" about teasing ones religion or sacred people. What would you do if someone badmouth your mother or father. Will he/she show "SECULARISM" and "RATIONALITY" ]

If he/she does not, the proper way to deal with it is the Legal System.

Not murdering that person.

This will be hard for you to understand. But if you get this, you won't be a true Muslim any more.

TAhmed32.

People should have the freedom to express their views. They should not be threatened with death or other punishment for expressing those views.

Mushy is punishing the press for expressing its views.

The Bengali fundamentalists are threatening the writer Taslima for expressing HER views.\

The underlying issue is the freedom to think independently and it is one and the same issue.

If you condemn one form of suppression but go wishy-washy on the other, it is fair to accuse you of hypocrisy.

Your directive to Ajeya – to “go somewhere else” is very similar to what the fundamentalists are saying to Taslima – to “go somewhere else”!

KRashid1961,

It is meaningless to couch the issue in terms of “respect”. The concept of what constitutes “respect” is very subjective and it lies in the eyes of who gets that “respect”!

The point is – is one to be ruled by the laws of the society or the laws of the Mullah-interpretations of the Book of one segment of the society.

What is your position?

If you believe in the freedom of expression - which is the topic of this board then do you have the guts to say that openly to those same fundamentalists who are after the Taslima's blood?!

If you do not have that ability, then your rant at the Taslima is simply a fake a marriage of convenience with those same jihadi killers!

bjkumar #66 This post is below average for a generally sensible poster like you - i.e. you use strong words (hypocrisy) to back a weak argument (i.e. that the Tasleema whatshername in India is the same issue as the issue of muzzling the media in Pakistan). Your argument that they are the same issue is a weak one because it one can stretch any two issues to find some common ground and claim they are the same.

bjkumar: further to #68: as for "guts" - that is again an uncharacteristically dumb statement on your part. I wont bother to explain to you why that is a stupid statement, because I think you are quite capable of figuring that out yourself.

So, please ever dont put on your "dunce" cap again when writing posts to me. I expect you to write like an intelligent person.

Re: # 42

Tahmed sahib:

"...the Chief Justice has already won.... Reason: the key issue ..... was the Mush getting a rubber stamp from the Supreme Court..."

Let us leave Musharraff out. Don't you think that the Army has now got the rubber stamp Supreme Court?

Sadly, the independent judiciary has once again been choked. A powerful institution stands destroyed. It took judiciary over 10 years (= NS + Musharraff times) to have an independence and be active. It is hard to predict how long it will take now to get judiciary back to Oct. 2007.

It was sad that BB decided not to be inside the system and reform from within. She started confrontation even before she became PM. Indira Gandhi was "elected" by "syndicate" in the congress, as they thought through her they will come in power. Hence they voted her to lead Congress Parliamentary Party that made her the PM. It did not take her long to throw syndicate out, all thru the democratic process.

Pakistan badly needs democratic leaders. I do support Sadna's advice that all Pakistani's participate in election. I would add that they vote to give a single party absolute majority. Only then a face off in democratic institutions will be credible to put Army back in the barracks, and show the world that Pakistani civilian institutions can control nuclear trigger also.

Re: # 68

Tahmed Sahib:

I am with you that Tasleema and Pak Media cannot be compared. I may also add that, unlike as BJ says, Media should report. It's experts should express their opinions elsewhere, and not bias the news reporting process. I realize it is a tall order to isolate personal prejudices, which frequently are co-mingled. But then everybody cannot be a winning journalist.

anil #70 To leave Musharraf out of the current crisis would be like discussing Hamlet without prince Hamlet. Having said that, in answer to your question - the rubber stamp does not do anything to the army one way or another.

So let me rephrase your question to something more realistic: i.e. Will the current crisis result in not just the removal of Musharraf, but also an end to military rule in Pakistan? Any answer at this stage would be simply a guess, obviously. Since we dont even know for sure how the current crisis will play out wrt Musharraf.

As for the Supreme Court - no doubt Musharraf has dealt a severe blow to Pakistan by destroying the Supreme Court. But again - there is every reason to believe that as and when democracy is restored in Pakistan (as it will no doubt one day), the Supreme Court will come back that much stronger.

I see you havent considered the premise I had made, btw - that the battle is already lost for Musharraf.

#69 TAhmed32,

[So, please ever dont put on your "dunce" cap again when writing posts to me. I expect you to write like an intelligent person.]

TAhmed32, I will write any damn well way I please to any damnbody that suits my fancy – and I don’t care much for this “Mushy” act you are trying to pull here.

Perhaps the irony escapes you that the Mushy is also asking the press to write “intelligently” – and by his definition, “intelligent” means – to agree with him!

Taslima is a writer. She has a right to express her views. She is in India. You are neither Bangladeshi nor Indian – what you say on this issue is as irrelevant as what an Albanian monk could say!

anil #71 I once heard a prominent American journalist (Pam Constable of the Washington Post)describe her experiences in South Asia, and she made an interesting comment on how she saw her role as a journalist - which she said was that of a sponge. i.e., to soak in as much as she possible could of what was going on, and then pass it on.

As humans, we no doubt can never be totally free from biases. But hats off to all professional journalists - and I think the subcontinent can proudly claim to have increasing numbers of such true professionals describing events to us.

bjkumar #73 "You are neither Bangladeshi nor Indian – what you say on this issue is as irrelevant as what an Albanian monk could say! "

That is the opposite of what you were saying just now (i.e. saying that I need to condemn the fundamentalists), and consistent with what I said!!

You are not your usual sharp as a razor self today. Hope all is well at home. :-)

#71 Anil

Stop trying to smell like roses to Tahmed miaN by putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that the media should NOT be reporting?

But Taslima is a writer – not a media person. She must be given her freedom to express her views without the threat of harm. So many Pakistani chowkies are so gutless to admit that simple fact and when they become so gutless – they become, through silence, the co-conspirators of those same troublemakers who never believe in those freedoms to begin with. Then these same people turn around and wonder how their khakis – the most coward of the cowardest – can trod them under those boots so easily!

Again, and again!

#76 bj: you didnt take my advice to think "gutless". So, let me ask you: What guts does it require to write stuff on the internet using a nic?

I think you need to cool down a bit. As I pointed out below, you are contradicting yourself in your righteous anger all over the place!!

#76 bjkumar: and why would anil need to smell like roses to anyone on the internet?? you are really losing it right now!!

#77 Tahmed

[What guts does it require to write stuff on the internet using a nic?]

My guess is - it takes zero guts. Yet, when it comes to protecting Taslima's right too write - how many Pakistanis are doing that?

Exactly the same number as the amount of guts involved!

A BIG FAT ZERO!

BJ ji:

".... is punishing the press for expressing its views..."

Your use in the above clearly states the reason for punishing the press. I know you are very intellgent.

"Smell like roses" confirms that you are a creative writer too, and not just Taslima.

And as far as this concept of "respect" for the religion of others is concerned - tell me where is the reciprocity?!

Why should the reverrred religious figures of other religions get any less respect in Saudi Arabia than the religious icons promoted from Saudi Arabia are expected to get in other parts of the world?

Yet, does that happen?

If so, explain to me.

If not, will the people who are bad-mouthing Taslima here show the same energy in pleading for that reciprocity?

#79 bjkumar: ok, let me change your zero to one: Taslima has every right to express her views, and all those threatening her with physical harm for this purpose should be treated as the common criminals that they are. And anyone calling for banning her books is a coward.

btw, the reason you wont find Pakistanis on the Taslima board is obvious - we are more concerned about our own problems. Or do you seriously think that, if asked, most Pakistanis would give something opposite to what I just said above??

anil/bjkumar: I have to sign off. Have a good evening.

#80 Anil

I do not remember but I think somebody (I forget who)accused me of trying to "smell like roses" and the term stayed with me. I am not creative like Taslima, of course!

Re: # 74

Tahmed Sahib:

I would say that all of Pakistan make the coming elections -A referendum on whether Pakistan can continued to be ruled by the Army?

This such a great moment for Pakistani parties to leave egos behind and ask Pakistani to vote for or against the Army rule.

One voice. Yes, there was single voice - in Pakistan; and one voice in India. That was in 1940s. Right things did happen.

Musharraff and Army may live to regret, in Pakistanis turn in into a referendum on the Army rule.

#85 Anil

Pakistani referenda have a strange habit of coming up with the exact results sought by those who arrange such referenda - and "legitimizing" those individuals.

Like the Mushy.

Re: # 86

BJ:

This can be a chance to show those "fixers", what can be the alternative.... true?

TAHmed, BJkumar:
All the pseudo liberals and pseudointellectual red flag the people on this forum for using foul language. Man before "Bari Bari Haank" look at your own "Gareban.

Ajeya b.wale #81:
Can you deal with me if I say your mother is a b.
Let see what legal action you can take except telling the same thing to me.
I think your father was also a b. and you are the most understanding person smart a. and a b.

bjkumar #67.
I have not read her. But if she has bad mouthed the prophet and there is no law in your constitution to deal with her send her to some country where legal system deal with these kind of people.
If law does not give remedy. You either make the law or take the law in your own hands.
Do you have alternative. Why there is punishment for traitor, agitator etc. Doesn't the people have as much right to agitate against 3rd or 4th grade writer who write porn to make money or bad mouth religious sensibilities to make money and get fame.

bjkumar#81:
I don't think in hindu religion there is something against prophetPBUH or Muslims as Islam is a much later religion than hinduism, unless the later addition to hinduism is also very sacred.
In Islam there is no bad mouthing of personalities as such. It is the actions which are told that they are right or wrong. As far as prophets before Islam all of them are revered. As far as idol worship. It is mentioned they they cannot benefit you.
Something are sacred to people. If there is a problem, lets discuss.
As far as secularism and religion mutually exclusive are not true.
One of the initial pioneers of scientific methods Averroes(Ibn-Rushd) was one of the greatest secularist and thinker whose books were taught in Europe for many hundred years. Still he was the Chief Justice in I think Cardova which involved religious knowledge of highest degree.
In the same vein you will find many non religious people who secularism ends by teasing other peoples sentiments.
Secularism as far as I understand is a way of thinking, where you don't invoke supernatural for everyday or any phenomenon.

zeemax writes "masadi,

BTW we're still waiting for that rocket ... made in USA, ... Is it still on the way? "

Like I have been saying all along, the US wants to strip its peon of the uniform, either in private by him stepping down which he has been reluctant (to say the least) to do or in public (by a hellfire with a mullah's prints on it aimed for his a$$). Negroponte came with the final warning, and Musharraf started hopping to, but is stopping short of giving up the uniform, not realizing that other than the "uniform" the Americans don't give a damn about the emergency and the prisioners and the media. If he doesnt go through with the final step you can bet hamid's gardner's salary, the hellfire from the Americans will find him....

Regarding Anil and tahmed thinking I'm an "agent"- just because they have been "stumped" by my valid arguments to which they can respond only with ad hominem for discrediting them- let me tell them that I am indeed an "agent", but not an agent for maintaining the status quo but an agent for change in the fulfilment of which purpose, I will not surrender to dimwits like you who have been thoroughly and completely exposed on chowk for being peons of the West whose side you both take even at the expense of stabbing the people of your countries in the back. Go climb a pole for I am here to stay and will expose your bs every opportunity I get...

tahmed wrote "masadi: dont blame hamidm - i red-flagged your posts."

We expect nothing different from immoral cowards

tahmed writes "every time there is a discussion on the serious crisis Pakistan is going through, he floods chowk with posts geared to make chowk posters (myself, quite often) critical of the musharraf government the issue"

You are not critical of Musharraf nor what he represents, you never were but became so because he has fallen out of favor with the Americans. I expose the roots of the problems we face which will throw up a thousand Musharrafs regardless of this one in the future if it is allowed to continue, and unlike you I have been consistent in my condemnation of dictatorship and in pointing to the reason for these current series of crisis in Pakistan, which you have copied and borrowed from my analysis to use in your own myopic view (deliberately to mask US involvment). You are the agent of the Americans but are doing, like a said, a "piss poor" job of defending their propaganda even though you sway in your point of view with whatever happens to be in vogue with the US elite, and they are a hypocritical, immoral, barbarous lot, much like yourself who is their peon...

bulleya writes "this will leave a vacuum.......if the americans are lucky, it will be filled by people like imran khan.....who are anti-usa foreign policy (like i am), but not militantly nor ideologically...."

Mr. Clueless you cannot seperate US foreign policy from the ideology of its elite. What you take as "ideology" of the US are mere master symbols for legitimation that veil and mask the real ideology behind the policies and that is a dirty, dark, inhumane ideology that only barbarians who consider the vast majority of humankind expendible can espouse. Imran is no authority on anything, on many issues he is as clueless as you are...

Re: # 92

Massaddi Mian:

Your arguments were dead when you showed that you fooled yourself in believing that Godel's theorem allows you "self-reference". Stop kidding yourself. Seriously use your smartness for something more beneficial.

masadi:
Anti USA foreign policy, neither militarily nor ideologically):
Bushji BB or NS ke baad Ek Nazre Karam idher Bhi
Ham Bhi To Parein Hein Rahon Mein.
(Bushji after BB and Nawaz Sharif Look at me also)
( I am also lying in your way please)

Re: # 92

Massaddi Mian:

"..agent for change ..."

Don't make me laugh. You cannot even feel the change of seasons, unless it is proven by your theory of "self-reference".

BTW, do you even know how to recognize change?

masadi,

You may find this article by Humayun Gauhar of interest:

Caged tiger, angry dragon

Humayun Gauhar (posted 19 Nov 2007)

What an affront to God. Whilst our most corrupt villain of a politician has been let off the hook, our most honest hero of a politician has been arrested under the anti-terrorism act. "It could only happen in Pakistan," many would say spontaneously. I reject this assertion with contempt, for it implies that we are intrinsically a dishonest people who cannot tell the difference between right and wrong.

We most certainly can. It is only that our voices get drowned out by wrongdoers. Right and wrong are not to be confused with cleverness and foolhardiness. I have always placed President Musharraf in the category of people who can differentiate between right and wrong. What has made him go awry of late is the mind-boggling pressure of our convoluted politics and inability to stand up to a hyper-power that is the biggest state terrorist of them all and which has spawned every other type of terrorism that exists today.

All Musharraf wanted to do was exactly what his detractors are hypocritically demanding: hold elections and retire from the army. That is precisely his intention. What is the problem? It is that power hungry politicians who know they will do badly in the elections and Pakistan's American opponents whose real agenda is not democracy but chaos and castration have deliberately made such a production out of it that his intent has got lost in the fog of their diabolical politics.

It has turned the intrinsically democratic Musharraf who always tried to take the path of least resistance into an angry fire-spewing dragon. Confusion caused by the inordinate pressure of a hyper-power has regularly made our rulers take the wrong path. Talking of the right path, it means siraat al mustaqeem. It comes from the Arabic word Sha'r, which means 'path that leads to water', water being the source of life. Sha'r is the root of the word Shariah, which has come to mean law but is actually a code to keep one on the path that leads to water.

Imran Khan's arrest on ter