First it was Bangladesh now it Baluchistan

Re: # 111

"why the hell he had to choose this particular date. This asshole spares no effort at poking at our wounds.

Musharraf says will lift emergency rule on Dec 16"

Dec 16? Shoo Muthlab?

Viqar M:
(have based my assertions on his stands and pronouncements in the past. In the past, he always referred to the armed forces, along with the feudals, as primary culprits for the ills of Pakistan.)

It is not that way. Feudals are not going to leave their grip on power, while MQM stands for the rule of Middle class):

{What gets me, though, is a lot of empty rhetoric. Given his allergy to army and feudal elites in the past, isn't it ironic that his party should now be in bed with both? }

I think with the amount of bargaining power of 13-17 seats they are very good bargainers. Being in bed, I did not get the point. If you are referring to coalition.

{Which army operation are you referring to over here? There have been so many. Can you be more specific?}

I am referring to Army operation which started in 1991 or 1992.

{Actually I expect that people take on what they can deliver. What is the point in making grand statements and in championing causes when they don't have the strength, or even sincere intent, to follow them through?}

I agree with that as long as you can. But still taking a stand is also important on various issues, because that not only reflects line of party but also gives direction to workers and people.

{MQM, in the past, allied with both PPP and PML, pulling out of both alliances after disillusionment. They could certainly have, and should have, pulled out last year when the operation in Baluchistan was mounted}

I don't get your logic. Why?

#107 Posted by Urstruly on November 29, 2007 9:54:32 am


They can shove their 10 billion where sun doesn't rise


Shouldn't that be our 10 billion $...being that it's your tax money...

{" i am happy to discuss any issue on chowk without engaging in personal insults"}

Sure! Hypo Chacha discusses any issue on chowk by engaging in collective racial, ethnic, linguistic, and provincial insults.

{" if such insults bothered me, i would never have stayed on chowk all these years."}

Beghairty aur hypocrisy men ziada faasla nahin he.

bubba #117 You are welcome, sir. :-)

Re: # 116

[if such insults bothered me, i would never have stayed on chowk all these years.] Thank you for exuding such a positive behavior. And this is from the bottom of my heart.

giani: i am happy to discuss any issue on chowk without engaging in personal insults.

there are no doubt individuals who engage in unprovoked personal insults - and it is chowk staff's job to implement their guidelines in this case. if such insults bothered me, i would never have stayed on chowk all these years.

#113 Posted by giani_240 on November 29, 2007 11:18:44 am
{"Salim mian,
I would give tahmed a break"}

Giani Sahib,
Agreed! you name the limb.

Urstruly Sahib,
For $10B any Injun would sell his mother, all of his sisters, and most of his fathers, including the phamily cow to anyone, including a Pathan.

Salim mian,

I would give tahmed a break. He was probably not born when Bangladesh happened. At least he has been consistent.

giani

Re: #108 Posted by Urstruly on November 29, 2007 10:14:46 am

[May ask, technically, who the hell is in charge of the country right now? Kiyani? because the martial law is still in effect or Mucharraf? If it is Mucharraf then how can army work with duality of command?] Because President is Chief of Staff. Huh! And up until now, I thought you are the brightest of them all on this chowk.


#107 Posted by Urstruly on November 29, 2007 9:54:32 am
Re: # 106

[They can shove their 10 billion where sun doesn't rise] And that is what they are trying to figure out places where the sun does not shine? Frankly, they have already known for a long time that the best place where the sun does not shine is where there is a huge demand (as in NWFP) with all those "buchhaa baaz" hanging around with their pseudo machoism. These "buchhaa baaz" have finally met their match with Negroponte. Don't you think?

Oh this just takes the cake; why the hell he had to choose this particular date. This asshole spares no effort at poking at our wounds.

Musharraf says will lift emergency rule on Dec 16
3 hours ago

ISLAMABAD (AFP) — President Pervez Musharraf promised Thursday to lift Pakistan's state of emergency on December 16, in a long-awaited gesture of reconciliation hours after being sworn in as a civilian leader.

This Kiyani dude appears quite dark and not that tall either... Aren't pakis supposed to be all tall fair aryans?... what's going on?

"The Pakistan military is a fine institution" - says mullha32... And Anna Nicole Smith was actually Virgin Mary... :)

Paki Military is a criminal enterprise... has killed more of its own citizens than enemy soldiers...

May ask, technically, who the hell is in charge of the country right now? Kiyani? because the martial law is still in effect or Mucharraf? If it is Mucharraf then how can army work with duality of command?

I was avoiding to see TV for the past day or two to keep my eyes getting "pleet" by seeing so many vulture in uniform in one sigle day but today unforunately I saw the baton-handing ceremony on youtube since someone told me that Mucharraf was crying during the ceremony. I saw how these crooks were handing over the key of their abbay ki jagir to each other. Who the hell these goons think they are and what this country is? Halwai ki dokaan; Nana ji ki fateha??

Re: # 106

They can shove their 10 billion where sun doesn't rise but one thing I am sure of is that capitalist cannot and will not shut down opium bazar, since that is how they fund their operations; Just like they were funding their operations in Honduras and South America in 80s (under Negroponte) by selling drugs in Los Angeles.

Re: # 104 Posted by Urstruly on November 29, 2007 9:29:27 am

[So Kiyani is NaPak's fouj's Yehya Khan-II.] Yes, and hopefully it will be rather quick. Negroponte is not known to have much patience. You must be aware of what he did in Hondurus, as a lowly ambassodor. Mush will be replaced by Kiyani before the year is over.

$10 Billion is at stake, of which $1 Billion will be spent in NWFP. The capitalists want to get rid of the opium bazaar in those areas.

#44 Posted by VRV on November 28, 2007 2:26:41 pm
{"Salimbhai,
Tahmed32 lost his marbles or dont know the topic of this article OR prolly he's substituing for Mantolives, who was on sabbatical from Chowk."}

VRV Bhai,
Hypo Chacha Al Butteesi has "discovered" democracy and, more importantly, "one man one vote." Of course, when the Bengalis were the solid majority of Pakistan, people like him spoke of "parity" and other notions, but not "one man one vote."

Having forced the Bengalis to go their separate way and now that the people he cares for, the people of his province, constitute a solid majority, Chacha is all for "one man one vote." Any wonder why he is dubbed as Hypo Chacha?

So Kiyani is NaPak's fouj's Yehya Khan-II.

Aik aur darya ka saam’na tha, munir mujhe
Main ik darya k paar utra tu main ne daikha

When are these assholes gonna quit.

rf #101 thanks for the apologies, my friend.

as for the new kid, i think we will find out in the weeks and months ahead. One thing to remember is that behind this kid is the rest of the military. And from all indications, the military is not happy at how they are having to treat their own people as the enemy. Also, if that military thought the same way as Musharraf, he would still be wearing his uniform. That is my best guess.

Anyway, let us pray that Pakistanis come out of this crisis more united than ever before, and with a democracy for which so many Pakistanis have paid with their lives or physical injury or incarceration or loss of jobs this year.

in the same article you will see that Kiyani in a manner of speaking sympathises with the Taliban......hence my comment that the winner in this is the mullah-o-cracy. Pray that the army wins and retains its original ideological roots....

Re: # 96

tahmed32,

I was simply translating into Urdu, if I have offended thee, then please accept my humble apologies.

Having said that, how is the new kid on the block?

#97 DashDot: The Pakistan military is a fine institution. No need to convince me. I saw the military even before Musharraf even joined it. However, the military now has a job to do - which is to prove to the people of Pakistan that it is there to serve them. Not vice versa.

Musharraf did a great disservice to the army when he tried to flatter it yesterday by giving the totally wrong message to it - i.e. that it owes allegiance to individuals, not to the nation as represented by duly elected representatives of the people.

Re: # 94

laddu jee,

with all due respect, there are some seriously flawed assumptions in your knowledge base.

DashDot: I dont think you have reflected on what I wrote about your view that power comes from the barrel of a gun. Just think of this reality that I mentioned below to you that has come to pass for Musharraf who thought along the same lines:

"This March, Musharraf fired the CJ because in doing so he thought he would get to be President and uniformed Chief of Army at the same time for another 5 years. In a few short months, even with the CJ in prison, Mush has had not choice but to do exactly what the CJ had told him he should do."

tahmed32 this is why the army is the best thing for pakistan...tell me which other industry or compnay or venue is there for this sort of a thing to happen in pakistan

"Military circles say the rise of General Kiyani through the ranks of the Pakistan Army has been rapid, if not extraordinary. They point out that this would be the first time that the son of a non-commissioned officer (NCO) would head the Pakistan Army. His humble background as the son of an NCO has endeared him to the junior ranks of the army." http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/10/who-is-general-ashfaq-kiyani.html

T his is real meritocracy. Watch Kiyani screw the feudal Bib-10% and the bank-swindler-sharif-e-badmash-ibn-arabia (representatives of all that is bad in pakistan)

#95 rf: namecalling and attributing to me the opposite of what i said does not befit you. please try again.

Re: # 88

chachu buthee,

Congratulations. You now have a new prophet called "Kiyani", so please do all of us a favor and give a rest to the much abused CJ.

"However, his critics point out that even though he has been projected as a highly successful chief of the ISI, it was during his tenure that the neo-Taliban staged a comeback in the tribal areas of Pakistan with a big bang and the Pakistan Army practically lost control over the Pashtun belt, thus enabling al Qaeda to establish its sanctuaries in the Waziristan region on the Pak-Afghan border."

This could be a danger man!!!

Re: # 89 that is touching indeed, i.e "not corrupted by power as yet"..... 8-()

kiyani was head honcho ISI. Kiyani is COAS, and C-JCSC(in waiting I think). Come on that is power. And did you hear the speech at the hand over thingy parade (the photograph of which you posted on UP). "It is the Army which has safe guarded Pakistan and has its interests at heart".

For the common abdul of the street - rule of law dont matter. With one it is feudalism, nepotism, etc. With the other it is nepotism, with elitism. No difference Tahmed32 - that is why you have the bearded men ruling the streets. Atleast with the army, there is an appearence of meritocracy.

In all of this it is the bearded men - the mullah-o-cracy which are the winners.

You read too much into the battleship potemkin - aint gonna happen. karachi is no odessa. And pakistan is no Russia. and this is the 21st century ...... collectivism is passe and the world will not allow collectivism (of that kind) to happen again.

I have a feeling that Kiyani is going to be very friendly with the mullahs and would be worse than Zia in the coming future!!!

I have a feeling that Kiyani is going to be very friendly with the mullahs and would be worse than Zia in the coming future!!!

I have a feeling that Kiyani is going to be very friendly with the mullahs and would be worse than Zia in the coming future!!!

#88 of course, the big question is: does kiyani understand the significance of "The Battleship Potemkin"? We shall find out for sure in the coming days. But I am very hopeful that he has not been corrupted by power as yet, and may still understand reality. And if he doesnt - then God protect Pakistan. Because I dont see how the people of Pakistan are going to rest until Musharraf is totally booted out along with his rubber stamp judges, and the rule of law restored in Pakistan.

#87 DashDot: Yes they can, my friend. You are too deep inside the "army box". Think outside the box and see the reality.

This March, Musharraf fired the CJ because in doing so he thought he would get to be President and uniformed Chief of Army at the same time for another 5 years. In a few short months, even with the CJ in prison, Mush has had not choice but to do exactly what the CJ had told him he should do.

Like you, Mush too thought that power comes from the barrel of the gun. He forgot that when enough brave people put themselves before the barrel - the soldiers themselves refuse to continue shooting.

See "The Battleship Potemkin" someday to help you get out of this "cantonment box". This is the famed Soviet era movie that showed a true incident when the Czar's navy flotilla sailors refused to fire against their own people. This happened in 1969 in Pakistan, and it is again happening today.

Re: # 86 its not touching. But realism.

None of the civvies can fart, breath, sneeze without his permission or without his knowing.....power in this case flows from the barrel of the gun...

DashDot: Your respect for the military power now with "Kiyani sahib" is touching. However, Kiyani, if he has any sense in his head (which I think he does, not having been driven mad with power yet the Musharraf has been), probably understands that real power belongs to the people, and he is merely entrusted with serving them.

Re: # 79 #83

Yesterday on NDTV in an interview with Barkha Dut, sharif-e-badmash stated categorically

"he will not share power with mush-e-ruff - never, never ever. If it came to it and his party had the majority, there will be a surrogate puppet PM"

I think Mush-e-ruff has another deal with the Badmash-e-arabia. Both have decided that the Bibi-10% shoul dbe kept out. its a trinagular relationship each edge having its own deal going. But the real power is Kiyani sahib...these three are just small fry....for now atleast.

some parallels in baluchistan and assam..insurgencies, outsider colonizers vs local conflict, oil-natural gas, seperatism and so on. assam is much smaller as compared to baluchistan in proportion to rest of india-pakistan size.

hamidm2,

What could be the deal between NS and musharraf? What would/did each get in return for what?

As a hindu idolator who has to face the ultimate reality of "Islamic identity" of my dear Pakistani neighbourers I am only interested in knowing one thing-

Would the present dispensation be good for the jehad against me or not?

If kiyani or "Islamic democracy" is going to result in increase in jehad against idolators then we have to be at guard against the present set up that is brewing in Pakistan!!!

As far as I kmow - kiyani is going to support the current jehad that is being pushed by ISI from Nepal and Bangladesh!!

hamidm: Watch for the fireworks from now on - students are gearing up for big demonstrations on Friday it seems, the normally quarelling NS and BB seem to understand that the restoration of the CJ and other judges is vital to loosening Musharraf's last desperate attempts at clinging to power. You can vote for whoever you like - I will be happy just to see you and zeemax and all other fellow Pakistanis casting your ballots.

Re: # 72 krashid1961:
Ilham and wahi is Pir sahib's domain. I have based my assertions on his stands and pronouncements in the past. In the past, he always referred to the armed forces, along with the feudals, as primary culprits for the ills of Pakistan. Not that I am in disagreement with this diagnosis.

What gets me, though, is a lot of empty rhetoric. Given his allergy to army and feudal elites in the past, isn't it ironic that his party should now be in bed with both?

"Army operation was started because they just did not realized their limits".

Which army operation are you referring to over here? There have been so many. Can you be more specific?

"Now you don't expect a party with 13-17 members in parliament to take a lead in 200+ strong parliament. They can only take a stand on issues. And I will give them credit where it is due".

Actually I expect that people take on what they can deliver. What is the point in making grand statements and in championing causes when they don't have the strength, or even sincere intent, to follow them through?

MQM, in the past, allied with both PPP and PML, pulling out of both alliances after disillusionment. They could certainly have, and should have, pulled out last year when the operation in Baluchistan was mounted.

BTW, the only place I have ever lived in Pak was Karachi; that is where I grew up, and did all my schooling all the way up to the bachelors from NED; I am urdu-speaking, a bit older than you are, and certainly am fully aware of Pir sahib and MQM's conduct. Sorry, the wahi and ilham trick does not work with me.

tahmed mian,

....... i will be thrilled if nawaz sharif does not have a deal with musharraf, but i doubt it very much .... never the less, i would vote for nawaz sharif if i could (i have to vote for sheikh rashid regardless of the party) ....... i will vote for nawaz sharif's mpa candidate ....... it is a matter of choosing the lesser evil ......

........ i also hope you are right and musharraf is gone in a few months - it can easily happen if the politicians get their act together ........ but that is like expecting masadi to stop acting like a lunatic .......

.......... of course all bets are off if imran khan storms the presidential palace !!! ..... he is keeping alive the tradition of maulana bhashani, nawabzada nasrullah and asghar khan .....

krashid #69 You are very right about the need to determine the direction of the nation. There are basically two choices - dictatorship or democracy. The dictatorship can come cloaked in a uniform spouting "national interest", or cloaked in a beard spouting "sharia law", or cloaked in some ethnic or regional identity spouting "regional grievances". But it is still dictatorship in the sense that the ordinary people are irrelevant to those seeking power by doing this spouting.

Or Pakistan can be a democracy - based on universally accepted principles starting that are enforced through the rule of law.

The battle lines are drawn as clearly today in Pakistan as they ever have been. And the vast majority of the nation has made clear that they prefer democracy and a free press and the rule of law over a dictatorship.

So, I think the direction is set as clearly as it ever can be.

#73 nasah: It is sinister indeed. An army's allegiance is to the nation, to which it reports through elected representatives of the people. Not to one man. Musharaff, having destroyed the judiciary on November 3, is now clearly trying to destroy the military as well by giving armymen the impression that they owe their allegiance to one individuals. The big question is: will the military buy it? I doubt it. I think the average armyman is as fed up of this scoundrel's games as the average Pakistani.

so normal service returns to Pakistan.

kiyani is in the hot seat...the man has a similar resume to Mush-e-ruff, and been bloodied in 1971.

We now have a notional wardi man as prez - Ayub, (a few since then) and now mush-e-ruff. Bibi-10% or Shareef-e-badmash will be PM. The big difference between then and now is the NSC, and its composition is interesting

(1) Pres
(2) PM
(3) C-JCS
(4) COAS
(5) Marshall of the Air Force
(6) Admiral of the Navy
(7) Chair Senate
(8) Speaker of NA

and a few kaun-kiskas

The scene is set for the civilians to carry the can. The Civilian PM will not be allowed to even sneeze or fart without the armed forces say-so.

Can BiBi fill in the shoes of her father? Will Mush-e-ruff turn out to be Ayub? Kiyani the 21st century Yayha Khan?
Who is the next Zia-ul-Haq? Is the cycle repeating itself? Will we see another ZAB-episode?

Re: # 50 Posted by hamidm2 on November 28, 2007 6:16:35 pm

[....actually, things were a lot worse in the mid-seventies ......... i was born in quetta and half my relatives live there, so i know a little bit about it ......]

And yet, you still buy in to Punjabi admimistration's propaganda against Baluchis all these years. You know how Baluchis have been mistreated all these years by Islamabad. Don't you?

About this problem:


Q) Which is the largest Baluch city in Pakistan?

Answer: Karachi

Q) Which city has the largest population of Pathans?

Answer: Probably Karachi

Q) Which is the largest Sindhi City?

Answer: Karachi

Q) So called Mohajirs?

Answer: Karachi

Q) Largest Punjabi City?

Answer: Lahore. Karachi is in either second or third place

Q) Largest Bengali City in Pakistan?

Answer: Karachi

Parallels between Bangladesh and Baluchistan?

Answer: Probably none...

Re: # 53

tahmed -- "kay dooba jai hai yeh aftab ahista ahista" -- was also in response to hamidm's " nikalta aa rahaa hai aftab".

The Gen. was almost crying like a kid losing his army toy. He surely did not want to give it up.

One of the sentences in his rambling speech was rather curious. He said: "I 'hope' the army will remain as 'loyal' to Gen. Kiyani as it was to me".

Does it sound to you a little sinister? -- or it was his usual -- delusional megalomanis -- spilling in between his crying stuff.

viqarm:
I don't know where are you getting your information from (looks like you are getting Ilham or Wahi).
Altaf Hussain or MQM has never demonized the army. (Army operation was started because they just did not realized their limits)
Now you don't expect a party with 13-17 members in parliament to take a lead in 200+ strong parliament. They can only take a stand on issues. And I will give them credit where it is due.

@Krashid;
" don't think that was threat.
Army operation in Baluchistan stopped in 2006".

So why didn't MQM pull out of the ruling coalition in 2006? Pir sahib had issued his ultimatum long before Bugti was killed.

@VRV

What is the big deal about issuing a statement of condolence? Altaf bhai has been demonizing the rmy since the 1980's. Why this sudden soft corner for a military dictator?

Re: # 64
bj -- you may be right -- but right now it seems that the army may genuinely want to disengage itself from messy civilian politics and get back in a hurry to barracks after Musharraf's PR disasters after disasters.

tAhmed 32:
I have always been while in Pakistan against the politics of MQM.
I think your point of more democracy in parties is valid.
As you remember when I say survival of Pakistan is more important than for example democracy.
First determine your direction as a nation, solution will come on its own.
Tell me what will happen once people get elected. As HamidM says hung parliament. There will be a party of Government and party of opposition. With parties changing allignment with Government.
And in the end I will be saying Bechare Lawyer.

krashid: you are welcome to your views about the mqm. perhaps you know things i dont. however, from everything i have seen, i can only consider mqm to be a party of ethnic fascists that has committed violence (murders, kidnappings, tortures) to establish themselves in karachi, and that has betrayed Pakistanis at their hour of need on May 12.

I agree on point 1. Our national parties badly need inner party democracy. But mqm is no different, and in many ways (as per above) much worse. So the answer is to introduce inner party democracy in political parties, not go for the most lawless, divisive and violent one of them all!!

On point 2, mqm started off as "muhajir", changed that to "muttahida" - but its actions speak louder than any words.

If there is anything else about mqm that you know that I dont, then I am all ears. but the above are not convincing at all.

Ahmed madani sahib,

I am not sure about the data you have on stock prices of shipping companies and oil drillers worldwide. Can you quote sources please??? in India most stocks related to a wide spectrum of the energy business are doing very well. Rigs in fact are heavily in short-supply worldwide and holding up E&P activities.

But B'stan's royalty on gas should be related to the market price of gas, no two opinions about this, if they are being shortchanged that is not done at all!!! i dont know how royalty is caluclated in Pakistan but in India on all new wells there is a revenue sharing model wherein a % certain percentage of the profit (which can vary depending on the market prices) has to be passed on to the Govt. Which in turn is shared b/w GoI and state govt in a particular ratio.

Regards

TAhmed 32:
As far as I remember or know MQM has never done any struggle for freedom from dictatorship. If you have any information then I will accept your point that they betrayed.
As far as divisive politics. There are two points I would like to mention.
1- I would like to see National Parties succeed. But I have no faith in those parties. For valid reason. Nawaz Sharif ruled Sind through Governor most of his second stint. And People's party did killings and extrajudicial killing through Naseerullah Babar. Those issues are deeply ingrained in the psyche of people.
2- MQM does not compose of only Mohajir, it includes and involves all communities and nationalities. Moreover it is a party of Middle class and has the support of middle class. You cannot force people to change mind when they have not changed their mind after 10 years of state operation against MQM.

Re: # 14 ,The prices(NG) are extremely depressed to around 6 to 7 dollars/ mmbtu. Two years ago the prices were in lower teens( $12). Presently the prices are low so marginal wells all over world are being capped. All canadian gas producers are on "gas". Within few years things may change as worldwide facilities at ports will be build. Pakistan is building its firt LNG facility at port. The carriers of gas have also suffered extremely,stocks of all VLGCs ( very large gas carriers) have gone down compared to last two years. The stocks of all drillers norwegian, Usa, French ( very large co.)canadian are at low levels. In some parts of world like russia, Canada the wells are capped as there is no storage capacity left.Most drillers are cancelling to procur and not exercising the options to buy rigs. Due warm conditions in winter worldwide last two years and it looks this year also there is no great demand for gas due to extreme cold.
The point is if B.Stan sells its gas at international prices they well get many times than now. If punjab , Sindh farmers get more prices by quarrelling with govt ( wheat and sugar for example which is higher than international prices) why B. gas sold be at such low rates ?
There should be some equity , all provinces are equal but some are more equal, chaep gas at cost to B.Stan as usual.
good day.

#48 Nasah sahib

They ALL start out as paak-saaf insaan until they taste actual power. After that, any excuse will do to grab it all and hang on to it for as long as possible, strictly to "save" the country.

Pakistani khakis have saved that country more times than Jesus Christ has saved souls!

hamidm: and one more thing - you are confident that mush and ns have a deal. I wont forget this. And when mush is out of his "post-retirement job", as he will be within a few months at most, I will be sure to remind you of your prediction.

;..now Balach Marri has been killed, and Pir sahib hasn't moved a finger.

Talk is cheap. Hypocrisy would be the undoing of MQM.'

59 by viqarm,


Thi is 4 u.


'Altaf Hussain pays condolence to Nawab Khair Buksh Marri
London- 22 November 2007 Mr. Altaf Hussain Founder and Leader of the Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM) expressed his deep and profound sorrow over the unexpected death of Balach Marri son of Nawab Khair Buksh Marri in a clash. While commenting on the death incident, Mr. Hussain said that the Government should disclose the real facts to the nation about the death incident of Balach Marri.'

www.mqm.com

Viqarm.
I don't think that was threat.
Army operation in Baluchistan stopped in 2006.
Currently there is provisional Government.
The point is that a party with a small leverage like 13-17 seats in parliament can hold so much leverage. What about the bigger parties like PML (Q) and MMA which were part of Government. If they would have taken stand to begin with there would not have been any operation. And same is the case in NWFP.
It is a common folly to blame the crime of a nation on one person and become abluted and pious. This was the same folly we did in Bangladesh.

#48 Posted by nasah on November 28, 2007 5:00:02 pm

kiyani is the new leash on the old dog...changing a leash doesn't make a lion out of a dog...

Re: # 55 Krashid:

Altaf bhai had threatened on numerous occasions to pull out of the govt. if this or that action was taken in B'stan. Yet all those actions were taken, Bugti was killed, now Balach Marri has been killed, and Pir sahib hasn't moved a finger.

Talk is cheap. Hypocrisy would be the undoing of MQM.

krashid: you can keep beating mqm's drum hoping there are pakistanis stupid enough to forget about how they betrayed the rest of Pakistan during their struggle for freedom from dictatorship. wont change a thing - mqm has been a divisive party that has done most damage to karachiites themselves.

hamidm #46 and did you see his miserable face under the pomp and show of his forced retirement? did you hear his sucking up to the military (on whose goodwill he now depends to keep himself from being brought before a court for his criminal actions)? not one word about the Pakistani people except to growl about how he is confident that the military will push aside anyone who dares come in its way!! And this man wants to be the civilian President of Pakistan?? Give me a break!!

#21 Posted by saima_gul

That is an excellent post on Balochistan.I hope Dada got the answers. Saima your knowledge of Balochistan is amazing. I have Rind friends but I am sure they too don't have as good an understanding of the Jat tribes of Balochistan.

Your take is right. Baloch and Pathan of Balochistan are very sympathtic to each other even though politically they look to different idealogies.

Thanks.
Pleae keep posting on Balochistan and other areas of Pakistan.

Although tensions remained high, there were attempts within the Pakistani government to ameliorate the situation through more peaceful means.

Chaudhry Shujuat Hussain, leader of President Musharaf’s Pakistani Muslim League issued a set of 32 recommendations on how to address Baluchistan’s rebel grievances. The three main recommendations were that first, the province inhabitants be given a greater share of the gas profits (the region contains 40% of Pakistan’s natural gas reserves) and more jobs in the exploitation of gas resources. Second, pay the Baluchistan province arrears of $100 million

STOP THE ARMY OPERATION IN BALOCHISTAN


London – 1st August 2004:

MQM Founder Leader Mr Altaf Hussain has said that he is extremely saddened over the army operation launched in various areas of Balochistan including Turbat, Gwadar, Sui, Talar, Kohlu, Basholi, Makran and Chaman. He strongly demanded of the Government of Pakistan to immediately stop this army operation and to resolve the Balochistan issues through honourable dialogue

Articulating his personal views on the issue, Mr Hussain said that he is extremely saddened over the recent on-going army operation in Balochistan and that he and his party, the Muttahida Quami Movement (MQM), share the sorrow and grief of the people of Balochistan.


Party in Pak’s ruling coalition withdraws breakaway threat over military action
(AP)

9 January 2006



KARACHI, Pakistan -

A party in Pakistan’s ruling coalition has withdrawn its threat to break away after saying the government met its demand to halt military operations in Baluchistan province and pursue negotiations with tribesmen there.


The Mutahida Qami Movement, or MQM, had said on Sunday it would pull out of the alliance if the government did not agree to its demands by Jan. 13.

But hours later, President Gen. Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz made separate telephone calls to MQM chief Altaf Hussain and said there would be no military operation in Baluchistan, according to Salahuddin Haider, an adviser with MQM.

“Both the president and prime minister assured (MQM) that there will be no military operation,� Haider said.



MMA role in coalition a mistake: Ghafoor




By Our Correspondent

LAHORE, June 7: The senior naib amir of the Jamaat-i-Islami, Prof Ghafoor Ahmad, on Thursday conceded that the MMA’s presence in the coalition government of Balochistan was a political mistake and the alliance should pull out of it sooner than later.

Speaking at a news conference, Prof Ghafoor said the burden for such a decision rested entirely with the Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam, the JI’s partner in the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal, which continued to be part of the coalition along with the ruling PML.

“It is the JUI which must now review its position as any further cooperation with the regime in that province will take a heavy political toll on the MMA particularly at a time when the next elections are approaching,� he added.

The JI leader, however, did not agree to the suggestion that the MMA should also quit the NWFP government. He said the MMA was ruling the province because the people had given it the right to rule through their vote. It had a mandate to rule the province as a legitimate and constitutional right.

The JI leader said all the opposition parties knew about the repercussions of Gen Pervez Musharraf seeking his re-election from the present assemblies and there was a general consensus among the opposition ranks that Musharraf should not be allowed to be re-elected in uniform.

He said seeking a vote from the present assemblies for another five years in the presidency when the legislatures’ own remaining life was only five months was not only unconstitutional, but also anomalous. He was of the view that Gen Musharraf would not be able to get re-elected ‘under any circumstances’.

He advised the president to accept the ‘ground reality’ by withdrawing from both his offices and this alone would ensure peace in the country.

Asked about the decision of PPP chairperson Benazir Bhutto not to attend the multi-party conference in London, Prof Ghafoor hoped that the PPP leader had also said she was not having a deal with the regime and only talks with certain high-ups were held so far.

“I hope that Ms Bhutto will not deviate from the principles enunciated by the ARD’s charter of democracy and has reviewed the party policy under the situation prevalent in the country.�

At the outset, Prof Ghafoor spelled out the entire political scenario, criticising the regime’s internal and external policies and observed that Gen Musharraf had started confrontation with all sections of society and state institutions.

The current national crisis, according to him, was similar to that of the 1971 because a lack of implementation of the constitutional provision about provincial autonomy and army operation in Balochistan and the NWFP had created a sense of alienation. Even in Sindh, the voices of secession were being raised.

So of three major Coalition Parties.
1- PML wanted peaceful solution.
2- MMA wanted operation stopped but will continue to be part of Government
3- MQM threatened to quit the Government unless operation stops.

hamidm #46 did you predict mush "taking off his uniform"? fine. will the PCO go? that too will happen no doubt - perhaps announced as mush as part of his becoming a civilian president in an effort to make everyone forget about the Chief Justice and the scores of brave judges who have sacrificed their personal careers for the sake of the rule of law in Pakistan.

but will this scoundrel then stay on in power due to a deal with nawaz sharif or BB? i have my doubts. but if he does, that is fine. His name is mud given the vicious manner in which he has attacked the Pakistani people in various ways, including making deals with mullahs over the heads of the pakistani people in order to stay in power, using lal masjid mullahs to intimidate Pakistanis until the chinese pulled his ears, including "disappearing" hundreds of Pakistanis, kargill. and his name will remain mud for all eternity. so he can remain president for a little while longer with his "oversmarts", no big deal.

All I ask is this: they restore the Supreme Court that this scoundrel destroyed on September 3 - and the only way to restore it is by putting the CJ and the other judges back and giving the boot to the rubber stamps currently disgracing the SC building.

nasah #43 i was just trying to give hamidm a hard time by reminding him that a few days back he had referred to mush as a "rising sun" or something.

Urstruly:
Army is the defender of Nation. (And I don't care where it originates as long as it keeps its secular tradition and people from all part of Pakistan accept them as such)
There has been operation against MQM by the Army and close to 10,000 so called Mohajirs have been killed during 1990,s. Majority of their leadership was underground or absconded.
I don't understand your grudge against MQM for the crimes of Army.
Who welcomed the Army and Pervez Musharraf (who is also an army person nothing more nothing less). Who is the leader of Party created by Army.
Now if you think Naseerullah Babar, the Interior minister was MQM person who basically unleashed a spate of killing and extrajudicial killing. I think that he was Anti MQM.
The only time MQM took part in any activity was 12th of March 2007, when Chief justice came to Karachi. And MQM was running the administration, at that time. And I can tell you job of administration is keeping law and order without looking at who is creating law and order situation.
MQM has all along supported the Baluch Nationals. And has been and still is against the Army operation in Baluchistan.
Do you have any knowledge which parties supported operation in Baluchistan and which parties were against it.
If you think Pervez Musharraf is MQM. He is not. MQM and Pervez Musharraf are as far apart as Maulana FazlurRehman and Pervez Musharraf.
Tell me if General Niazi, Yahya Khan and General Kiyani fall into the category of fouji Harami or not.
As far as Paltoo kuttas. At one time JamateIslami was so much Paltoo Kutta of Army that it was the only party which supported the referendum of ZiaulHaq.
Nawaz Sharif is a known Pedawar of army(IJI) would you categorize him as paltoo kutta. Or was he at one time and no more.
Do you think Benazir and Nawaz Sharif have come through a deal or through public pressure.
It is surprising as I said in my previous board that Pakistan is still surviving.
(Just to put the record straight. I don't belong to or have sympathy for MQM).
And as Quran said "Enmity of someone should not make you blind, so that you stray away from justice".

A timely article indeed. The murder of the great Baloch leader, Akbar Bugti, is the most heinous crime committed by Mush. He is veritably a worshiper of the 'Kaali Kursi Devi' and can go to any length like 'Thug' killers.

Re: # 49

vrv,

.... i didn't say hunky dory in pakistan ... i said it is 'business as usual in baluchistan' ....actually, things were a lot worse in the mid-seventies ......... i was born in quetta and half my relatives live there, so i know a little bit about it ......

hamid,

I've a problem with ur alter-ego squeeling for nothing.

U say (on Bluchistaan) as if everything is hunky-dory in Pakistan. Lol!

Re: # 46
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's new military commander, is a popular soldier who is likely to reduce the army's political role, repair frayed ties with politicians and try to turn the tables on an escalating insurgency by pro-Taliban militants.(Amen!)
.
While Musharraf is respected by the military commanders he has nurtured, such as Kayani, the new chief now holds a position more powerful than the presidency itself and he is considered an independent-minded officer who will put the army's interests ahead of his mentor's.(Amen!)

Pakistani analysts describe Kayani as a soldier's soldier, with a modern, pro-Western outlook. Although he was hand-picked by Musharraf, Kayani is likely to confine himself to military matters and remove the armed forces from day-to-day politics, they say.(Amen!)

A Western military official in Islamabad said that with a new military commander ``who is not distracted by politics,'' there is ``cautious optimism'' the army will concentrate more on fighting extremists.(Amen!)

In public appearances, the lanky Kayani is stone-faced and serious, with dark bags under the eyes of a hawkish face.
He is known to choose his words carefully, preferring to listen rather than to speak.(so no verbal diarrhea. Amen!)

In the 1990s, he served as Benazir Bhutto's military secretary during her first term as prime minister and is said to be on good terms with many in Pakistan's political elite.(AP)

Did Musharraf make the same mistake ZAB did and NS did? Kiyani was the only officer who who did not participate -- sat stone faced without uttering a word -- during Musharraf despicable badgering of the Chief Justice to resign.

Re: # 45

vrv,

... don't worry your little head ... baluchistan is not a problem ... it is basically a tribal conflict that has been going on for ever ........ it is the marris against the bugtis against the mengals, and they are all a bunch of feudal fools trying to protect their fiefdoms .....every ten years or so the army has to go in and knock one tribe's head with the help of the other .......

.....the bla is a piece of nonsense as was evident from the events of last week ..... one day the younger brother is killed and the next day the father meets with benazir bhutto and the older brother files his papers to run for the national assembly! ......

.....in any case the pushtuns probably outnumber the baluchs by now and most of the traditional sardars are either dying off or moving to the cities to work for multi nationals or the fauji foundation .........

Re: # 38


cerberus musharraf

tahmed,

...... mush has done exactly what i predicted - taken off the uniform and become the president ..... the emergency will also go in a couple of days ...... i don't think he will try to rig the elections because a hung parliament is what he wants ...... the chaudharies might have different ideas ....... it also depends on what kind of 'deal' he has with nawaz sharif (anyone who believes that there was no deal is a bigger fool than romair and masadi put together)

..... if the politicians don't boycott the elections - which i don't think they will (a deal is a deal) - mush will be around to the preside over a hung parliament and the bickering politicians with his 58B ......... if bb and ns can get together and put together a two third majority, they might be able to overturn 58B and defang mush .......... otherwise bush in mufti will continue to guard the gates to hell .........

problem that's brewing in Balochistan is real.

Salimbhai,

Tahmed32 lost his marbles or dont know the topic of this article OR prolly he's substituing for Mantolives, who was on sabbatical from Chowk.

The problems that brewed in East Pakistan were real and the problem that's brewing in Balochistan are real. However tahmed32 is acting like a jerk. Prolly he's too dense to know the nuances of the issue or the 10K life on Chowk has taken toll on his sense of propriety. :-((

My only hope is that he can discuss the points raised here in the spirit they are originally intended. If he prefers to act in a jerky manner the refuge for such behaviour is Unplugged. Hope we can see him there........

Re: # 38

"Mush being a rising sun." -- no way

" kay dooba jai hai ye Aaftaab ahista ahista"

Mohar,
Pakiland came apart because of the selfishness of the elite Pakis in the West. Pakiland is coming apart because of the demand for "one man one vote" by the majority province - something they denied to the Bengalis when they had more men and more votes.

Re: # 39

What chacha32 forgets is that pakiland has already come apart - in form of Bdesh - which is what we are talking about here... Indians didn't just "hallucinate" about that - they actually made it happen...

Pakiland may come apart again, in form of Bstan... this time, indians don't have to do anything, it just might happen on its own... they way pakis are brutalizing balochis, exactly they way they brutalized bengalis...

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#30 Posted by tahmed32 on November 28, 2007 5:46:11 am
{"Indians wetting their lungis with happiness while hallucinating their long-term hallucination of seeing Pakistan come apart. The slap on the face of hindu fascism in 1947 must still hurt. ha! ha!"}

Hypo Chacha Al Butteesi,
You have the inimitable gift of turning every tragedy into a comedy, every shameful defeat into a self-proclaimed victory, and every insult into an excuse for boasting. Man, either you are throughly stupid, totally deaf, dumb, and blind, or just a solid hypocrite.

hamidm: I think you owe me lunch because you had said something about Mush being a rising sun. Mush is now a paper tiger swimming with the sharks..(drum roll).."just as I had predicted", as Romair would say. "Nostrodomus" Romair can eat his heart out!!

Re: # 36

mohar mian,

... you keep on nasty things about pakis and you won't be able to get a taxi cab anywhere in the civilized world - we will walk you to death !

May be indians should say something like "dude, what the heck was grandpa gopinath thinking?" - each time we pass a paki...

But then - where the heck do you pass a paki?... I haven't passed one yet... at the rate you pakis are killing each other or going to gitmo - chances of that happening is lesser and lesser... :)

Re: # 34 hamidm2
[...we are just happy not to be indians...]

Me too... I mean - who wouldn't?... it's a perfect arrangement - pani ka pani, dudh ka dudh... pakis on their own, normal people on their own...

All I am saying is - why abuse us hinuds as fascists and what not, for doing the right thing in 1947?... grandpa gopinath made a mistake a few centuries back but that does NOT mean we all have to suffer forever for that... :)

Keep on killing... :)

Re: # 33


mohar mian,

.... we might be fucked up but we are just happy not to be indians ........ these are the words that every paki child learns to say when he passes by an indian : "there but for the grace of grandpa gopintah there go i" .......

Pakis are killing pakis like flies - with all kinds of dereaded weapons and bombs including white phosperous, but mullah32 is busy sniffing at Indian lungis to find imaginary wet-spots... :)

Even though - the number muslims hinuds have ever killed is nowhere near the number pakis have killed so far - Mullah 32 never gives up a chance to tilt at hinud fascism wind mill ...

With this kind of inverse thinking - No wonder pakis are so f***ed up... :)

What is happening to the Special Chinese Economic Zone (SCEZ) in Balochistan? HOw far has it come...there is very little news about it?

Balochistan is in a rather interesting place between Pakistan, Iran and a stone's throw from Saudi, and to this you add the SCEZ (which over which Pakistan has notional sovereignty) and you have a pretty nice volcanic mixture all primed and ready to go.

It appears Pakistan Govt has overplayed its goose stepping hand here.

HP is correct Balochistan id different from SWATand NWFP and FATA. The mixture has a different composition and there are way too many players here.

As pakistanis our first priority should be to save the lives of our fellow citizens. When no one else but your own state machinery is involved in extrajudicial murders in this day and age then nothing can emphasize the gravity of the situation more. The grammer in this article, the race of baluch, and whether they are dark skinned or fair skinned has absolutely nothing to do with issue. The issue here is the matter of justice and equity.

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There is no central thread in the article which the reader can follow, quited a disjointed piece. Typically there is no mention of India's role without which Bangladesh would even today have been a West Pakistani colony

Arjun,

U are a star.

Yes, these kids that our Zee want to call them Aryans!

These kids?

Name : Mr Altaf Hussain, MQM Founder Leader
Location : London, UK
E mail : mqm@mqm.org
URL : www.mqm.org
Date : 3 July 2001

Comment : 3 July 2001 The Members of Baloch Voice Web Team Assalam-o-alaikum I visited your website and was very happy to see the way you have so effectively and brilliantly arranged the various sections. I salute each and every member of your website f

Your Views about Balochistan,s future. :

I What shall we do ? II. And How should we do it ? :

I would like to suggest to your Website Team to get hold of the photographs of the GENOCIDE COMMITTED against the Baloch men, youth and innocent children, who were brutally executed by the Army during 1973. Such photographs of martyrs could be displayed o

emphasis is mine.

From the Guest Book on Balochvoice of BLA

http://balochvoice.com/Guest_book/Guest_Book_2.html

===========

Sai ma and others,

Altaf is a Pakistani leader.


Zee,

http://balochvoice.com/Pictures/More_Photos/Baloch_children _2.jpg

Do these kids look like Aryans?

Yes, Borohi's and other ethnic tribes in south and East are dravidians. Then there are also Kurdsa and Nergos called Makranis.

Zee sahib/Saima,

Thank you very much.

Regards

#18 Posted by majumdar,

I couldn't comment on that because I'm not familiar with the Brahui or Dravidian languages. But in physique, they're all fair-skinned and very sturdily built. I don't know if any Dravidian branch had those physical traits.

Re your # 5, the rebellion is only by the ethnic Baluchi tribes who are mostly settled on the gas resources in central Baluchistan. The Pushtoons who are a vast majority in Quetta and the Iranian border are loyal to Pakistan, as are the Brahuis of the coastal regions. But due to ethnic Baluch have a greater leverage because of the gas resources in their lands.

This rebellion has nothing to do with Taliban sympathy. It is purely for economic reasons. The Pushtoons of Baluchistan are not aligned with Taliban either, and neither are the Brahuis. This is why the rebellion in Baluchistan has far from mass support and the Government has been able to suppress it time and again since the 70s.

It is really true that Baluch are unfortunate people . They have suffered alot more than anyone else. However during the last 8 years their suffering has been intense. General Musharaf has brutalized them like no one else . He wants to basically dole out Baluch land to officer corps. The land in sind and punjab and seraiki belt is finished. Secondly he wants to create a coastal province for urduspeakers. this is fully evident . Despite all pressures,he went ahead with gawadar port project . MQM minister recently announced that a new port at Gadani will be built . It has been a long standing dream of Urduspeakers to have a separate province/state . Once Gawadar and the coastal belt is colonised the Urduspeakers will be able to separate from rural Sind and create a new country/province.

Having said that ,let me make it clear that people of punjab are against the military operation in baluchistan, the lootsale of land in gawadar . They would whole-heartedly agree to giving baluchistan a greater share of gas royalty . People of punjab are also against setting up of cantonements. It has been the non-punjabi/kashmiri rulers/army chiefs who have done military operations in baluchistan. The first operation was ordered by quaidazam/liaquat ali khan .the second by ayub khan,third ny Zulfi Bhutto,Fourth by General Musharaf. There was no military operation in General Zia's time . It was during his time that the gas was brought to Quetta.General Zia's first act upon taking over was to free all the detained baluch nationalists leaders . He went to Hyderabad where they were jailed and had lunch with them . From 1977 onwards there was peace in baluchistan until Musharaf Dehlvi took over . When the military operation was in full swing,General Musharaf's own lapdogs Shujjat Husain and Mushhaid Husain tried to negotiate peace . They even managed to set up a parlimentry committee to create proposals to appease baluchistan . The committe came up with reccomendations but General Musharaf vetoed them .

Finally gas was first discovered during 1951 in sui. It first went to Karachi , and then much later to punjab . But the Urdu-speakers and MQM FORGET all this . On top of that most of the land that has been bought in Gawadar has been brought by entities from Karachi . Once the port is operational, it will be karachites who will be asked to run it , not punjabis . Lahore is 1500 km away from Gawad while Karachi is only 500 km away . The original population of gawadar is just 3 lacs so within a short time , they will become red-indians. This is the Musharaf/Urdu-speaking plan and punjab has NO ROLE in it .

Haven't been hearing much action in B'stan these days. What's the matter, the province is quiet now or that faster paced action elsewhere has overshadowed action in B'stan?
-----------------------------------------------------------
There is a low level insurgency by BLA, mainly to safegaurd the interests of the Baloch Sardars. Recently Balach Marri got killed. The government says he was killed by NATO Forces, but BLA wants to capitalise the incident. It appears the Government is right.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If I understand right, southern parts of B'stan have a Baluchi majority, northern parts have a Pushtoon majority, is that right? Is there any bad blood or feeling of comptt between the two?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Balochistan does not totally represent the Baloch stream. Baloch stream itself is divided into three countries ie Seistan in Iran, Farah in Afghanistan and Balochistan in Pakistan. Within Pakistan, there are three divides between those who are the permanent residents. To the South and East are the ethhnic sub continental tribes like the Barohi's, Bheels etc. They are an indigenous descentand not Aryans.Then there are the Rindh Baloch divided into mengals, jatois, bughtis, lagharism jhakaranis and so forth. They are all jats and also contigiuos to Sindh and Punjab and behave like sindies and punjabies. To the North are Pathans who are mostly Durranis sub classed into Salman Khels, Mando Khels, Jogezais, Achakzais, pupalzais, ghaibzais and so forth. They occupy Quetta, Khurasan(Zhob, Muslim bagh etc). Though they are all indiginous, there is sone faultline between Pathans and baloch. However, it is not to an extent that can lead to seperation.
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Where does the political sympathy of B'stan Pathan lie. Is he pro-havayoon like his counterparts in much of NWFP or is he pro-kanjaroon or simply neutral? If pro-havayoon how come he has not joined the insurgency openly like in Swat/W'stan.
--------------------------------------------------------
Pathans in Balochistan are all pro Pakistan, Mehmood Khan Achackzai was a socialist aligned to Parcham and Khalq Parties in Afghanistan, but is now a progressive nationalist. You will be surprised that the present format of 14 august celebrations in Pakistan originated in Quetta.
-----------------------------------------------------
And what about the Baloch, he is obviously alienated from Pakistan. But does he support the havayoons in NWFP (enemy of my enemy is my friend) or oppose them ('cos of Baloch-Pushtoon rivalry)?
------------------------------------------------------
This is a hypothesis that CIA and Raw wish to happen.

Zee sahib,

Are you saying that most Brahuis are havayoons by temperament, not kanjaroons.

Regards

... contd ...

Another interesting tidbit. Maulana Abdul-Rashid Ghazi of Lal-Masjid was a Brahvi, from Rojhan Mazari on the Baluchistan-Punjab border.

Zee sahib,

I have heard something interesting about the Brahuis. That there language is very similar to the South Indian Dravidians and probably gives credence to the theory that Indus Valley people were Dravidians.

Is this right?

Btw what about the questions in #5, if you can elaborate.

Regards

#5 Posted by majumdar,

There's also a third very powerful ethnic group there called Brahvis who own practically the entire Baluchistan coastal areas, and large parts of their tribes live in the South Punjab/Sind/Baluchistan bordering towns and closer to Punjabis than Baluch. The Lagharis and the Jamalis are examples, one of whom was the President and the other the Prime Minister in recent times.

Nawab of Kalat Ahmed Yar Khan, the ruler of entire Baluchistan at Partition who acceded to Pakistan, was a Brahvi.

Saima,

Thanks. Btw could you answer the queries I had addressed to HP sain in #5.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

majundar,
its nor so. balochistan once produced the bulk of gas which has increased over time. But gasfields at Sawan and Kadanwari, operated by OMV in Sindh and Qadirpur (OGDC) produce more gas than Sui and Pirkoh Balochistan. There are very big gas reservoirs in Karak (NWFP) while Punjab is supplying most og the gas to uo country.

Ahmed madani sahib,

(Presently world wide Natuaral gas are depressed extremely )

I dont think that's true. The spot prices of gas is over $7 per mmbtu which can hardly be considered low.

(Presently GOP sells gas at extremely low prices to consumers as it is baloch assets and they are generous to public at cost to balochistan.)

Incidentally a substantially large portion of gas from ONGC is also sold in India at very low prices (less than US$2 at well head, about US$3 delivered). This gas comes from a number of wells at different states- TN/AP/Gujarat/Maharashtra (inland and on seas). Fortunately for us unlike Baloch these people are not fighting rockets in order to increase the gas prices, hope the CMs of these provinces do not read you in Chowk.

Regards

Every sane person will have sympathy and nonpunjabi natationalities will have emphathy. It true baloachi are unfortunate people. They have 42% land mass but no more population worth in numbers. Soon they will be reduced/ or already to native Sindhis. Outsiders do not know Quetta is capital is more pathan than Baloach and pathan are not push over. After present culling B.Nationalist only anger small part of Quetta. Pathan quetta went ahead with usual chores nonchalantly. As MQM limits Sindhi nationalist aspirations same way Pathans as equivanet to MQM. The bengal was a homogenous mass except some urdu speakers and had no great material value tp pakistan but just real estate and was responsiblity the defence cost and they had capacity to show subservive ideas about democracy and freedonmand cultural ethos and vision above all glue of language. So pakistani elites were not verry unhappy to part as real danger was if landless start emulating ideas of fall of feudal landlordship could have been unberable to ruling elites. baloach as people are not important as prople ( now nobody says openly but actions are louder than lofty slogans.) Problem with B.stan is they are poor people with enormous wealth under their feets. As general said national assets. Baloachi problem is their assets are "national assets". The life of punjab abd sindh is energised by big lines bringing gas by sui company for so many years. Still enormous amounts of hydrocarbons is lurking underground. That is reason largest foreign amout is poured in buying ogdc and other companies. many exploratory drill are giving excellent results. So it like big river flowing and natives have no water and is transported away. The baloach have choice in theory. If they become independent they will 3 millions balochi rich , or same number but poor pakistanis. Nationalists are banking on rich becoming dreams. These are dreams as without Baloach hydrocarbons punjab and sindh will suffer and will have to bring all gas at international prices. Presently world wide Natuaral gas are depressed extremely but they will reason as gas demand goes up. Presently GOP sells gas at extremely low prices to consumers as it is baloch assets and they are generous to public at cost to balochistan. In army rule Balochistan govt gets peanuts for royalties. But they have no strength to bargain as they will be undermined by GOP and army.
Army is storng and more beefed due to american mobility assets , like helicopter Gunship , airmachines , pilotless drones and usa made smart missiles. So they are too powerful to be challanged in open. The asymmetrical war is going between nationalists and Sindhi and Punjabi elites for mineral weaths. There is always adjustments by weaker parties. Probably few millions of dollars by A.stan and India given give hell to army. Nationalists have advantage as vast pipelines,enormous number elecric wire pylons and railway rais are easy targets. Army has to be lucky to hunt even few trouble makers while trouble makers are always lucky. 4 thousnad rupees worth of explosive blows up gas pipeline, like crude explosive topples 100s thousand dollars worth pole and electrcity gone. They need leadership who can work some garanttees to baloach people. Army dominated "deveoplments of cantonments" and bases is not good thing. Baloach also suspects elites are selling assets of B.Stan at sale. The big G is example. All lands were taken over by outsider. The corrouption is heavenly. Singapore govt got 40 years tax holidy it is unheard and there are rumors of lot of money transfrerred. Same way the mines for copper and gold silver were sold to chinese at throw away prices when Australin metal mining giant compnay was redy to offer alomst 5 times money. The deal was suspicios to say least. There should be inquiry why mines were sold so throw away prices to chinese companies and why 40 years tax holiday at cost of B. people. Why so cheap gas is provided to others at cost of B.Stan.
Hopefully b. Nationalist will not go on road like bengalis as there is neighbour like india. And all others will unite and crush the resitance. Hope good moderate leaders will work some formula so they can get wealth and do not go away from pakistan as then sindhi nationalist go same way and then pakistan will have no powerful navy against india.Wat in B.stan will not lead to independance but deat of baloach people and privations. All efforts be made by GOP to coll down people of B.Stan and offer provincial freedm and let them have gas and mineral assets so pakistan will be preserved. Nationalist leader should be aware of NON baloachi leadership who will cry with them but will go out and party with army as mr. Ustruely and hp and z says.
People should make suggestions for love and friendship and not blowing pipelines, rails and electric pylons.
All pakistanis are brothers.

thanx for sharing my view.
bjkumar, in a previous interact with me you had raised some questions to me regarding divisive forces in Pakistan. you never replied.

Saima,

(It amazes me why chowk staff permitted publication of such a naive and slipshod article on its front page.)

Appalling grammar as well. At least the chowkstaff could have had that corrected.

Regards

#7 Saima

It is not the job of chowk staff to read - it is that of its editors. And in fairness, one can say that the editors indeed try their very best to do that job once or twice in the blue moon.

It is not the job of chowk staff to read because that would be too much work for them and require them to learn a new skill called reading!

#7 Saima

It is not the job of chowk staff to read - it is that of its editors. And in fairness, one can say that the editors indeed try their very best to do that job once or twice in the blue moon.

It is not the job of chowk staff to read because that would be too much work for them and require them to learn a new skill called reading!

#2 Posted by Urstruly on November 27, 2007 7:00:42 pm


tried in the international court of justice for their crimes against the citizens of Pakisant in East Pakistan


AFAIK, YOUR country, the US of A, hasn't signed on to the ICJ thingy.

It amazes me why chowk staff permitted publication of such a naive and slipshod article on its front page. My viewpoint in no way indemnifies praetorianism, but rejects conspiracy based essays.

#2 Posted by Urstruly on November 27, 2007 7:00:42 pm

My dear miaN urstruly, the humiliation that the Pakistani khakis received in 1971 was worse than anything an international trial could ever have inflicted on them. (It made miaN Mushy cry like a girl, if one is to believe his account.) In fact, it was the utter humiliation which drove the khakis to do something they had not done before (or after) – turning power over to the civilian ZAB voluntarily.

Yet it made not the slightest bit of difference over time – the Zia Haque was back in the saddle merely six years later.

The attraction of power is just too great.

After all – starting with the Jinnah (who actively encouraged it) – Pakistan has only believed in the power of violence – and never in compromise! With that solid record of “getting-the-way-through-force�, it is the most natural thing for the khaki institution – which is the most forceful – to look down upon the rest of the institutions who want to do the same but are less strong – and for the army to forever remain eager to reclaim what it firmly believes is its own through the brutality of rule of the jungle!

Whether or not the Mushy actually surrenders power is immaterial. If it is not him, it will be only a matter of time before another dictator will step right into any (possibly) vacated shoes.

HP sain,

Haven't been hearing much action in B'stan these days. What's the matter, the province is quiet now or that faster paced action elsewhere has overshadowed action in B'stan?

If I understand right, southern parts of B'stan have a Baluchi majority, northern parts have a Pushtoon majority, is that right? Is there any bad blood or feeling of comptt between the two?

Where does the political sympathy of B'stan Pathan lie. Is he pro-havayoon like his counterparts in much of NWFP or is he pro-kanjaroon or simply neutral? If pro-havayoon how come he has not joined the insurgency openly like in Swat/W'stan.

And what about the Baloch, he is obviously alienated from Pakistan. But does he support the havayoons in NWFP (enemy of my enemy is my friend) or oppose them ('cos of Baloch-Pushtoon rivalry)?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Re: # 3

Some nura kushti it is where every policeman or fouji that gets cuaght is beheaded on daily basis and fouj spares no effort to bomb school killing hundereds of children at a time. Have you ever headrd prisoners being taken in this nura kushti? No. Fouj just commits the extrjudicial murder right there on the spot. Look at the video in post #1 and see how it is done. Please let go of you commie mindset and think in terms of humanity, fraternity and citizenary.

The problems in Waziristan, Swat and Baluchistan are entirely different. Ik laathi say sub ko nahin haanko beta truly.

Baloch would most likely support the army action in Swat and waziristan. The army is fighting (if at all it is fighting- generally it is a fake war- Noora Kushti) the criminals in Swat and Wazistan. In Baluchistan people have legitimate political, economic,nationalist, and humanitarian issues.

A timely article reminding Pakistanis why fouji haramis and their paltoo kuttas should be sent back to their kennels. As a matter of fact had these m/fs been tried in the international court of justice for their crimes against the citizens of Pakisant in East Pakistan, these rabid dogs would have not dared hurt any other Pakistani again. That encouraged them and now the attrocities of bangladesh are not only being repeated in Baluchistan but also in Waziristan and Sawt as well. And lets not forget the ethnic cleansing that fouj's paltoo MQM unleashed upon the citizens of pakistan in the 10 year civil war of Karachi and Sindh during 80s and 90s. NaPak fouj has become a security risk and a liability for Pakistan than an asset. Civil disobedience, social boycott of military families, and public shaming must be employed to set these harmkhors child killers straight.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g

This NBC TV footage shows the assasination of Dhaka Uni ppl by the Pak army.