Where is Ibn-Sina of the 21st Century?

#138 Posted by Maharana on December 15, 2007 7:48:45 am


It is good to have humorous stories in one's mythology.


"One man's religion is another mans' belly laugh." Robert A. Heinlein

and with hinduism, that's a lot of belly laughs...

BTW, I read Stephen Colbert's book I am America(and so can you). It has a chapter on religion. All religions are savaged, except islam, the religion of peace(and blowing stuff up)..There's a one very deferential reference to islam and mo...even comedians know muslims go ape shit at every real and perceived insult to mo or his camel. probably didn't want ROPers to go killing each other and burning down KFCs.

Feroz,

Since you are a muslim, I think you should read Hammurabi's code and compare them to the laws in Koran.You can objectively assess about the originality of such islamic laws and question its moral foundation and perhaps look at them as secular and hence changeable laws.
It is amazing how the poor mesopotamians were screwed despite being the original civilization. The barbarians around the mesopotamians hated its culture and destroyed it. And yet took the same secular laws from them and relabeled them as moral laws handed by the creator. It was carried originaly by the jews, then the christians and finally the muslims.
Fortunately the renaissance changed all that and we have reverted back to the original concept of secular laws like those of Hammurabi. A walk in the natural history museum in NYC will tell you how the modern western laws are based upon Hammurabi's original secular laws. In India manusmriti has been relegated to the dustbin replaced by the constitution. No one dares to mention manusmriti's laws to govern the public life.
Do you think something like that can happen in the islamic world?

Adios

It’s a good read. Islam, especially the form of Islam followed in Saudi Arabia is the worst kind. There is no logic or reason associated with it. Well, isn’t that the case in every religion. Christmas is the biggest celebration of the birth of a man for which there is no solid historical evidence. Moreover the story of virgin birth, which was a common myth in old times, is untrue. It’s included in bible and Quran. No one with a bit of reason at hand can ever believe the story of virgin birth but can a Muslim dare say that it’s not true. NO. So my friends, religion is not based on truth but has nothing to do with truth, its a socio-political phenomenon which should not be taken in literal sense.
Thanks

nkg, I have no idea what manu smriti has. If there are some useful principles in it, we can surely keep them. But rejecting the book (as a guide) itself is symobolically important for putting the past behind us. The last thing we want is to be in 'love' with manu, or start proving that he was a 'nice guy' of some sort.

# 141

nkg, hard to respond to that. It has a dismissive tone toward Christianity and Islam that, IMHO, is very unfair. Consider this: both Christianity and Islam continue to rapidly expand; their ranks are swelling. So if this is a modern age, then these couldn't be just 'medieval theories.' Fact is, both offer something that many many humans need, and always will need.

As to Hinduism, we just don't know. We have only had fifty odd years of freedom after thousand years of slavery. Whether any of this is real, or will last, for how long, none of this is clear. It will depend, I guess, on whether Hinduism actually develops a response to outsiders, any different than it did the last thousand years. Whether Hindus become moneyed or not is irrelevant in evolutionary battle.

Indians and Chinese fall into the trap of communism for precisely the same reasons that they become 'victims' (from their own point of view) of Islam and other semitic doctrines. You would never see a communist Muslim nation staying communist for very long.

Re: # 140
Lot of non-brahmins do well in education and large section of so called brahmins are poorly educated. Education still is most valued in Indian society (a businessman may earn more money, but a professor/teacher earns more respect in our society). That makes us sticking to the Manu theory still now. When we deviate from that and starts valueing the businessman more than a teacher, then we have drifted from Manu Smriti.

Re: # 139
The dark side of mediaval theories like Christianity and Islam is very well known. How much bloodshed the Jihad and Crusade had created has no parallel. West has started developing, when they have moved away from Christianity and in the form of secularism, started valueing their ancient civilization like that of Athense. Middle east, after the advent of Islam, is still crippled (leave Israel. That is different story). Can you see any contribution like what the people of Mesopotemia or Egypt in ancient time did (other than using oil money to promote terrorism and sectarian violence)? Mediaval age is called the dark age. Unless and until people move from these mediaval concepts, large section of humanity will be deproved of civilization.
The funnier side for we Indians and Chinese people are that, we had started the century with equally bad state. The respective Govt.s ( Nehru and Mao) had tried to force us some alien theory, which overlooks our glorious past. And then we are fighting against each other. I don't know, why China has to use arms to occupy Tibbet and put the alien theory of Communism on the people there. Why Congress and other political parties has to force secularism ( indian form) on Indians? I hope, China and India move forward and should regain their glorious past. Another 50 years?

nkg, agreed. For me, the greatest modern brahmin has been Baba Ambedkar. But there are some major problems in thinking that way (notice, I had to include "for me." That is not a rational way of thinking. We should leave it to those who are more interested in playing with words and soothing their own egos than in effecting real change.)

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hamidm, mahrana, craziness exists. All 'serious business' lies behind the scene. It relates to how craziness should be treated.

One approach is to know craziness and use it to entertain our children and be amused by it. Within that craziness, we can find some parallels to our own lives, which can teach us some lessons. This approach creates a great deal of freedom and some disorder and error.

The other, equally valid, approach is to believe in what others call craziness (since craziness is not seen as craziness), hold on to it in the face of all 'contrary' evidence, and enforce it through mechanisms of 'love' of specific individuals or fear of God. This creates a great deal of order and some unfreedom.

Both are ok choices and reflect and ultimately create different kinds of collective (even individual) human minds.

Re: # 134
If you see the history only couple of centuries, Brahmins should be blamed. Mind it, it is easy to create a classless society but, that never excels. To get a stable and effective society, you need to devide people and trough some generalization and specilization. From the ancient texts, it was evident that, Brahmins were not by birth. Lot of Brahmins were kicked out for their bad conduct. There are instances, when people from lower caste is inducted into the brahmin group. Lower caste people, specially dalits may hate Manu. But, he has provided a social structure, which is still valid in other form. Professor, Doctors, reasearch scholers, scientists are today's Brahmins. The group-D stauffs are today's sudra's. Politicians are today's kshatriyas etc...There is no point blaming Brahmins/Manu.

Hamidm,

Don't worry about belittling our religion. I think we ourselves do a better job doing that. I remember my high school teacher (a muslim) taunting us Hindus in the class one day, that we are so disrespectful towards our religion. He asked us to emulate the muslims and christians in showing reverence towards their respective religions. But I think we hindus are too thick skinned to take anything seriously.

It is good to have humorous stories in one's mythology. Ganesha's stories of riding on a rat are funny and I remember every kid reading it laughing. So is Hanuman, pretty much the first superman like character in the world.

But I think the serious side of Hinduism that gets overlooked in this caricature of sorts is captured well by people like Joseph Campbell for the western audience. If you see or read his "The Power of Myth" you'll perhaps appreciate the mythmakers too and understand why they are not prone to crusades.

Adios

Adios

#115 Posted by abu_safwaan, Masadi etc.

Mr. SR's knowledge of Islam is limited to faithfreedom.org, and that's where he wants it to remain - because he's an admitted murtad.

So don't waste your time.

islam saved in the tribal areas

LANDI KOTAL: The Mulla Gori and Zakha Khel tribes in Khyber Agency at a public meeting in Mulla Gori Sherbridge on Friday announced that their women would not be allowed to vote. Tribal elders warned the Election Commission not to set up polling stations for women in their areas, saying they would shut them down. They also warned women not to violate their decision, threatening action in line with tribal traditions.

santani, eklavaya, dost and other horrible hindoos,

.... i don't mean to belittle your 'religion' but it is just too weird for consumption for people of faith who frequent this site .....

......horrible hindooism is a caricature of a religion, something someone high on bhang or mushrooms or some other wild herb made up while on a bad trip ....... look guys, no offense, but your cockamamie stuff about baby-eating goddesses with six arms, rat riding gods with elephant noses and monkey kings with tails on fire, is just too outlandish to take seriously........ sure, we folks might believe in virgins giving birth, angels flying like bats in and out of caves, and old men parting the seas with a swipe of the long staff, but it is still mild stuff compared to your silly tripe ......

.....however, to your credit i have to say that i have yet to meet an educated hindoo who takes his 'religion' half as seriously as people of the book .... maybe they are simply too ashamed to admit that they would rather worship the meat on their plate than eat it, or bottle and refigerate their urine instead of draining it down the urinal, but all the hindoos i have met seem to have a healthy disdain for their silly religion ...... which is a good thing ..... unlike the god crazy christians, jews and muslims, most of you guys seem to have realized that their is no future in this craziness ......

lol, sanatani dada, stukes is all right. First, as we recognize, Brahmins cannot escape the blame for the total mess we got ourselves into (as an aside, didn't brahmins also help invent/impose on us blind liberalism, Nehru being the blindest of them all?). Second, communists and other non-Indians actually aiming to destroy Indian traditions as a whole have considered it necessary to isolate, separate brahmins, the latter having mostly been interested in matters spritual and philosphical. (so you have communist and non-Indian stories of brahmins having gone around slaughtering Buddists and hanging Bhagwan Budhha).

IMHO, no tears are necessary when brahmins are blamed. Baba Sahib ambedkar, for instance, had full right to abuse and blame everyone else - Brahmins most of all. But when communists and other outsiders jump in propagating myths, they must be put in their places. And since these people aim to hurt not only brahmins, this must be a collective Indian effort. Stukes has no ulterior motive.

Abe Kameen,

Tu phir chaloo ho gaya. Last time you wer a proud Hindu now again:

"If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction. Today, in India's urban areas, and also in fact in rural, the Brahmin is nothing more than a provider of services. The lower casts (not the Dalits yet, but the Shudars like Jats etc.)"

Why are people like you not greatful for the fact if it were not for the Brahmins Dharam would not have survived. (This is not to whitewash certain wrongs they have done) but the Brahmin is a caste much more sinned against than sinner than any such [definable] class in the world (Please let me know which Brahmin gave a Dharam adhyadesh againt Prathameshwar Guru Nanak for preaching equality) in fact within his Tarunyug Prathameshwar saw a Brahmin being sentenced to death for saying Hinduism and Islam are equal.

What of the Brahmins of Varanasi who gave the sacred knowledge to the 5 Pyaras when Dashameshwar sent them to Varanasi to gain a more insightful knowledge of Dharam and Gyan.

What of the fact that EVEN if we include the Vanvasi Hindus of Jan Nayak Birsa Munda even then % of the number of people hanged/killed by the Brits who were Brahmin was over 50% and excluding the Vanvasis 75%. Overall the Khalsa came next at little over 10% and the Vanvasis at a little under that(all figure appx +_ 2%[this figure HOWEVER MOST EXPLICITLY DOES NOT INCLUDES MADAR DAS GANDHIS BRAVE MOMINS THE MOPLAHS WHO DID A NICE LITTLE JIHAD FOR SWARAJ AGAINST THE HINDUS IN 1921])

And then again using these terms Pakis use like Shoodar? What will u use next Choorha for Dalits?

Sanatani

# 131, stukes is a pretty knowledgeable guy, but sometimes his love for niharis gets the better of him :)

Stukes, Brahmins deserved a lot of blame for weakening Indian society, but they never had any 'iron control.' At best that is a commie myth.

We got balaatkaarred primarily because our diversity got out of control. Internally we could not weed out our mistakes and big problems. Externally we could not recognize and deal with existential threats.

stuka:

"These very words could be used to describe the Brahmin in days gone by. If anything, it was the Brahmin's iron clad control on Hindu society that led to its self destruction"

And when was that? My understanding of the caste system is that the power was shared by the twice-born, i.e., the three upper castes, with Brahmins controlling religious rites, the scholarly pursuits and maybe policies; kshatriyas controlling the military and generally kingdoms and maybe also land while the vaisyas controlled businesses. Indeed, in the Hindu mythologies, like Ramayana and Mahabharta, it is the Kshatriyas, such as Ram and Pandvas who are the heroes while the priests are almost insignificant.