The Plan To Topple Pakistan Military

Dear Mr.Rashid

I spend nearly 45 minutes on drafting a reply but then i hit a wrong button and it washed off. it has left me very depressed . this has happened second time in 2 days . now i wikl send a reply in or 2 days but i will send one . do not worry. i never run from an intellectual debate . i hate physical violence of any sort and if u have suffered,then accept apologies from me on behalf of northern pakistan.

sonof Kashmir:129
It is not a matter of hurting. It is a matter of putting the record straight.
I would definitely like to know the opinions. It is important to dissect the real matter from opinions.

Hello

Geo is will of Pakistan .Musharaf Dehalvi is hated by Pakistan. Don’t worry for we the sons of soil will soon throw this devil out.

Now for the reply. Jinnahpur is Not a mere fiction but a reality. No Punjabi, kashmiri, sindhi,pathan ,baluchi considers it a work of fiction .If a survey is done amongst sindhis, they would with one voice say that Jinnahpur plan of MQM still exists and MQM is busy working on it . Infact MQM has already done most of the homework.

In the maps being published by US thinktanks, Pakistan has been broken-up into several entities.Punjab and rural Sind have been lumped together while Karachi is a separate state. An Urdu speaking from Karachi by the name of SYED JAMALUDDIN has written a book called Divide Pakistan to eliminate Terrorism. He ran 20 sec adds on CNN to promote this book. In this book, he openly calls for dividing Pakistan and making Karachi a separate independent state. (http://www.petitiononline.com/PAK47/petition.html)

Most importantly, the great leader of MQM Altaf Bhai has openly called “ Pakistan the greatest blunder in history of mankind’’ . He said that in DELHI and his speech was aired by GEO . His speech is available at Utube. This was one of the reasons that MQM was very happy when Geo was banned. There have been nationalists leaders in Pakistan like GM.Syed ,Wali Khan but none of them went to Delhi and called partition the greatest blunder. And you expect us to view Jinnahpur plan as fiction???

Last 5 years has seen MQM busy working on Jinnahpur. They have separated the Urban areas completely from rest of Sind.Now there is an MQM Nazim in Hyderabad. In Karachi the commercial areas of Non-Mohajir localities like Lyari have been separated and attached to mohajir areas. All important ministries in Sind were handed to Urdu speakers. Do you know that Baluchistan assembly passed a resolution with heavy majority in summer this year against the building of a new port at somiani. MQM minister for ports and shipping Babur Ghauri had announced building of a new port there . Members of Baluch assembly openly said that this was an attempt to build a coastal province for Urduspeakers by Karachi. Do you know that most of the land in Gawadar has been acquired and bought by investors from Karachi.It is only matter of time before Karachites flood Gawadar and turn Baluchis into minority. Today most Baluchis have forgotten the anger against punjabis are and focused on Urdu-Speakers.

You have raised a valid point that why Serakis are not slaughtered when they ask for separate province. The reason is that Seraikis do not go to India to ask for weapons, their leaders don’t go to New Delhi and declare partition the greatest blunder, they don’t spew venom against punjabis, they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts. In 2005, an MQM member moved a resolution in Sind assembly asking the Sind Govt.to call upon the Multinationals in karachi to give preference to job applicants with a karachi domicile. When Nisar Khurou asked that the words Karachi domicile be replaced with sindhi domicile, he was snubbed . In the end the resolution was passed unopposed and every MQM member voted yes for it .(So much for a liberal progressive party)


Similarly Lot of pathans want NWFP renamed as Pukhtunistan.Nawaz Sharif had a very close political alliance with ANP in 90’s. His relations with Wali Khan Family were cordial. But when ANP insisted on renaming NWFP, Nawaz Sharif parted ways with ANP. Similarly there are pathans in Baluchistan who want the pathan areas to be separated from Baluchistan and joined to NWFP. There leader is Mahmud Khan Achakzai . But has their wish been granted? In Pakistan no ethnic demands will be met, no matter what. Because it will break-up the country on ethnic lines. We the rest of pakistan will never recognize Officially Mohajirs as separate nation on par with punjabis ,sindhis. Because since every community must have a province, we will have to grant mohajirs a province. Infact this will be a logical development . We will never break Sind.

I have lot of official work to do . My earlier reply was washed out . I will send my complete reply in bits and peaces over a period of time.

{Geo is will of Pakistan .Musharaf Dehalvi is hated by Pakistan. Don’t worry for we the sons of soil will soon throw this devil out.}
This is your personal opinion, so no comment.

{Now for the reply. Jinnahpur is Not a mere fiction but a reality. No Punjabi, kashmiri, sindhi,pathan ,baluchi considers it a work of fiction .If a survey is done amongst sindhis, they would with one voice say that Jinnahpur plan of MQM still exists and MQM is busy working on it . Infact MQM has already done most of the homework}

That is also your opinion. No facts to show.

(In the maps being published by US thinktanks, Pakistan has been broken-up into several entities.Punjab and rural Sind have been lumped together while Karachi is a separate state.}

First thing where is the reference. Is it one opinion or is it the opinion of department of state or defense.

{Urdu speaking from Karachi by the name of SYED JAMALUDDIN has written a book called Divide Pakistan to eliminate Terrorism. He ran 20 sec adds on CNN to promote this book. In this book, he openly calls for dividing Pakistan and making Karachi a separate independent state. (http://www.petitiononline.com/PAK47/petition.html)}

Anybody can write any book, does not mean that it reflects the policy of MQM. Why does it not reflect the policy of JamateIslami or PPP or Muslim League (N)as many Mohajirs are in those party also.

{Most importantly, the great leader of MQM Altaf Bhai has openly called “ Pakistan the greatest blunder in history of mankind’’ . He said that in DELHI and his speech was aired by GEO . His speech is available at Utube. This was one of the reasons that MQM was very happy when Geo was banned. There have been nationalists leaders in Pakistan like GM.Syed ,Wali Khan but none of them went to Delhi and called partition the greatest blunder. And you expect us to view Jinnahpur plan as fiction???}
That opinion is not singled out for Altaf Hussain. Even at the time of creation of Pakistan many Muslims did not believe in Pakistan. Even Unionist Government in Punjab was reluctant to accept the proposal of Pakistan till very end. And to counter Ghaffar Khan, Qayyum Khan was brought in NWFP, but Ghaffar Khan's party in Government at that time did not accept the proposal of Pakistan.
Only two assemblies passed the resolution of Pakistan. One has already been seperated in the name of Bangladesh and other was Sind with Bhuttos father Shahnawaz Bhutto and G.M.Syed some big names. Also how much history of Wali Khan and G.M. Syed you know because your assertion are not true.
If you know that when MQM was in its infancy Jang group has been vehemently opposed to it and was supporting Jamate Islami. And there has been friction between MQM and Jang. The reason is same as now. Jang or Geo thinks that because it is media it can make or break someone, rather than being fair and impartial. So it is partiality of Jang Group rather than fair reporting which has pitted it against Musharraf Government this time.

{Last 5 years has seen MQM busy working on Jinnahpur. They have separated the Urban areas completely from rest of Sind.Now there is an MQM Nazim in Hyderabad. In Karachi the commercial areas of Non-Mohajir localities like Lyari have been separated and attached to mohajir areas.}

This is your assertion. If you think only Karachi and Hyderabad are Urban areas of Sind and MQM is present in these two cities only. You are wrong. They are present in Sukkur and MirpurKhas also as far as I know (and may be more). Now if Nazim of Hyderabad is from MQM. You will ask why Nazim of Peshawar is from MMA. What is the point. As far as matter of Lyari, would you care to explain which COMMERCIAL AREA of Liyari is seperated. .

(All important ministries in Sind were handed to Urdu speakers.)
What is the point. Chief Minister is from Muslim League (Q). He has appointed ministers for his Government.

(Do you know that Baluchistan assembly passed a resolution with heavy majority in summer this year against the building of a new port at somiani. MQM minister for ports and shipping Babur Ghauri had announced building of a new port there . Members of Baluch assembly openly said that this was an attempt to build a coastal province for Urduspeakers by Karachi}

I have no information.

(Do you know that most of the land in Gawadar has been acquired and bought by investors from Karachi.It is only matter of time before Karachites flood Gawadar and turn Baluchis into minority. Today most Baluchis have forgotten the anger against punjabis are and focused on Urdu-Speakers.}

This is your opinion or you have any facts.

(You have raised a valid point that why Serakis are not slaughtered when they ask for separate province. The reason is that Seraikis do not go to India to ask for weapons, their leaders don’t go to New Delhi and declare partition the greatest blunder, they don’t spew venom against punjabis, they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts.}

It is not as you said. Taj Langah has worked all along with all the nationalist elements in Baluchistan, who are being killed by Army. Why the Army is killing those Baluch leaders.
If you know that Karachi has much more diversity of population with people from all parts of Pakistan, than any other city including any Seraiki city. You are confusing two periods of MQM history. One is when it was Mohajir Qaumi movement and as the name indicates it was as ethnic as Punjabi Medicos, Pukhtoon Student federation and Sindhi Medicos or Punjabi Pukhtoon Ittehad etc. Now MQM is a national party Muttahida Qaumi movement with Baluch, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan all part of it.

(they don’t pass resolutions asking for ban on entry of other communities in Seraiki Districts. In 2005, an MQM member moved a resolution in Sind assembly asking the Sind Govt.to call upon the Multinationals in karachi to give preference to job applicants with a karachi domicile. When Nisar Khurou asked that the words Karachi domicile be replaced with sindhi domicile, he was snubbed . In the end the resolution was passed unopposed and every MQM member voted yes for it .(So much for a liberal progressive party))

These are Assembly resolutions as you say, so easy to retrieve and you know the year also. Can you cite the resolution.

(Similarly Lot of pathans want NWFP renamed as Pukhtunistan.Nawaz Sharif had a very close political alliance with ANP in 90’s. His relations with Wali Khan Family were cordial. But when ANP insisted on renaming NWFP, Nawaz Sharif parted ways with ANP.}

Nawaz sharif came in Politics in mid 80's. Pakhtunistan demand by ANP is even before 1970. So how come he joined then parted way on the basis of Pakhtunistan.

{Similarly there are pathans in Baluchistan who want the pathan areas to be separated from Baluchistan and joined to NWFP. There leader is Mahmud Khan Achakzai . But has their wish been granted? In Pakistan no ethnic demands will be met, no matter what. Because it will break-up the country on ethnic lines. We the rest of pakistan will never recognize Officially Mohajirs as separate nation on par with punjabis ,sindhis. Because since every community must have a province, we will have to grant mohajirs a province. Infact this will be a logical development . We will never break Sind.}

So if you mean that for administrative purposes creation of new provinces will break up the country. You know that in the beginnig when ONE UNIT was there there were 2 units West Pakistan and East Pakistan. Also there is a proposal and has been proposal to divide Pakistan into sixteen administrative unit. How does it break the country is beyond comprehension. Did India break when Jharkand seperated from Bihar or haryana from Punjab. MQM does not demand a new province anyway.

I have lot of official work to do . My earlier reply was washed out . I will send my complete reply in bits and peaces over a period of time.
No Comments except 'peaces' should be pieces.

Rashid mian,

(Even at the time of creation of Pakistan many Muslims did not believe in Pakistan. Only two assemblies passed the resolution of Pakistan.)

Correct you are. The Pakistan movement actually did not find much support in what is now Pakistan except in Sind- the main demand for Pakistan came from Muslims of minority areas and also from Bengal. Punjab, NWFP and B'stan were very late and reluctant converts to the Pakistan idea and incidentally so were the Islamists, a fact which is often glossed over.

Regards

At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan . Check your facts . In 1946 election ,Muslim League won 75 out of the 86 seats reserved for muslims in the punjab assembly. It was a poet from Punjab who first came up with the idea of pakistan. I am refferring to Allama Iqbal who presented the idea of Pakistan in a session of Muslim League in Allahabad in 1930. It was a punjabi student who first came up with the name 'Pakistan'' Chaudhry Rahmat Ali in 1933. Punjabi Muslims gave the greatest sacrifices to make Pakistan possible. In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division . It lost several muslim majority districts ,Gurdaspur,Bata,Ajnala,Jalandhar,Batala, Ferozepure,Zira to India thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.In order to make Pakistan possible ,Punjab had to part with its 3 rivers . In a space of just 10 weeks, 8 million muslims from east punjab were uprooted, 75000 muslims were raped, 2000 muslim women were kidnapped and sold into slavery . Yet inspite of these sacrifices there are mischievious people especially in karachi who deny this and say that it was the urduspeakers who made pakistan possible . The division of India was actually division of punjab and bengal . in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi . but in punjab,hell broke loose. There were just 1.5 million refuggees from UP,CP but from punjab there were 8 million refuggees. There are today only around 1 lac muslims in Indian punjab but there are TODAY crores of muslims living in UP and CP.

Finally there was a referendum in NWFP before partition in July 1947 . People of NWFP were asked whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan and they voted 97 % for Pakistan .

On lyari

http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/local11.htm

I am quoting from this article "Under the new local body system, the locality has been given the status of a town, but its commercial areas including Lea Market and Timber Market have been excluded from its limits, thereby depriving the town of its main revenue earners.''

Sonofkashmir,

(At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan.)

Very true. But the demand for partition had first been popularised by Bengalis and minority province Muslims, not Punjus/Pathans. They were very late converts to Pakistan.

(In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division.)

So did Bengal. And why not? Afterall if India had to be divided on Hindu-Muslims grounds, why not Punjab and Bengal? If it is OK to divide a nation on religious grounds so is it to divide a province.

(It lost several muslim majority districts , Gurdaspur etc. )

Only Gurdaspur distt. was Muslim majority and that too only if you include Ahmedis as Muslims and as we all know Ahmedis are not Muslims.


(thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.)

Is it the Injuns fault that MAJ (pbuh) called himself a rose and Lord and Lady M two thorns?

(in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi.)

You mention MKG as one of the persons who prevented violence? Wait till YLH hears it and then you've had it!!!

Regards

The Pakistan Army is the best and most reliable collaborator of USA , so why should make any plan to topple it ? See the army's role in 1857, in 1930, in 1942.Except the Ranghar Muslims,Afridis,Wazirs and Mahsuds who fought against the British ?

The Pakistanis are in the habit of blaming the Indians for every wrong thing.The Bengalis were the majority Muslims but first they were sidelined by the Hindustani Muslims who despite being a minority dominated the All India Muslim League from 1906 to 1951.Later they were sidelined by the Punjabi Muslims who dominated Pakistani politics because of having acquired a strong position in the army by collaborating with the British from 1857 to 1947.

The BLA and Baitullah Mahsud are a natural result of a series of injustices perpetrated on the tribal and Baloch Muslims.

The Pashtuns were used by Zia as cannon fodder in the Afghan War d the result is the present crisis in NWFP.

135#Sonof kashmir.
Have you seen Liyari, Lea Market and Timber market. It is likely administrative.

Sonof Kashmir.
{At the time of partition , Muslim people of NWFP and Punjab had come out vehemently in favor of Pakistan . Check your facts . In 1946 election ,Muslim League won 75 out of the 86 seats reserved for muslims in the punjab assembly.}

{Punjab’s Pakistan
By RSN Singh
Issue: Vol 22.4The part that constitutes the Punjab province in Pakistan, like other provinces of Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan, were not enthusiastic about the concept of Pakistan. It was much later, in the early 1940s, that the Muslim League made strong inroads into Sindh and Punjab. Finally, when they did decide to join the Pakistan Movement, their aspirations and motivations differed from that of the mohajirs and Jinnah. Jinnah acutely realised that Punjab was central to his idea of Pakistan. The undivided Punjab province had 56.2 percent Muslims. The Muslim League was a negligible force in the 1936-37 elections. It had won only one seat out of 84 Muslim seats in the province. Determined to make inroads into Punjab, Jinnah entered into a pact (known as the Jinnah-Sikander Pact) with the ruling Unionist Party leader Sir Sikander Hyat Khan. According to the pact, Sir Sikander conceded to Jinnah’s claim of being the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims, and in turn, Jinnah promised not to interfere in the politics of Punjab. Taking advantage of the pact-an indirect foothold in the province-Jinnah chose Punjab to declare the famous Lahore Resolution in March 1940, which categorically envisaged the creation of an independent and sovereign Muslims state. Sir Sikander resented the resolution, but could not bring himself to oppose it publicly, thus the Unionist Party became a party to it.1 The Unionist Party’s dominance in Punjab began to wane after the death of Sir Sikander in 1942 and resulted in the consequent rise of Jinnah.

In the annual session of the Muslim League in Delhi in 1943, Jinnah said, “I regret to say that the Punjab has not yet played the part it ought to play, and is entitled to play because remember Punjab is the corner stone of Pakistan. I particularly appeal to the delegates of Punjab, when you go back please - I would not say anything more - please substitute the love of Islam and your nation in the place of sectional interest, jealousies, tribal notions and selfishness.”2 Jinnah by political machinations further undermined the Unionist ministry of Khizar Hayat Khan Tiwana and ensured the rapid ascendance of the Muslim League in Punjab between 1944 and 1947. He resorted to rabid and unabashed use of Islam and its symbols. Jinnah targeted the critical political constituency of the Unionist Party, i.e. the Muslim landed elite, the pirs (sufi saints) and Sajjada-Nashin (custodians of sufi shrines). As a result, the Hindus and the Sikhs gravitated towards the Congress in large numbers. The divide increasingly became irreconcilable. In the 1946 provincial elections, the Muslim League won 75 of the 86 Muslim seats in Punjab. The Congress and Akali Dal won 57 (56.8 percent in general con-stituencies) and 21 (40.7 percent in Sikh constituencies) seats respectively. A coalition government of Unionists-Akali Dal-Congress under Tiwana came to power. Under intense pressure and deteriorating political situation, Tiwana resigned in March 1947, thus finally paving the way for Pakistan.}

{The next year (sic 1941), Sikander made plain in the Provincial Assembly, on March 11, that his conception of Pakistan differed fundamentally from Jinnah's; "A Muslim Raj here and a Hindu Raj elsewhere, if that is what Pakistan means, I will have nothing to do with it." He was opposed to the partition of India. ) Frontline March 2005

(Following independence, the NWFP voted to join Pakistan in a referendum in 1947.} Wikipedia

{I am refferring to Allama Iqbal who presented the idea of Pakistan in a session of Muslim League in Allahabad in 1930. It was a punjabi student who first came up with the name 'Pakistan'' Chaudhry Rahmat Ali in 1933. Punjabi Muslims gave the greatest sacrifices to make Pakistan possible. In order to make Pakistan possible , Punjab agrreed to its division . It lost several muslim majority districts ,Gurdaspur,Bata,Ajnala,Jalandhar,Batala, Ferozepure,Zira to India thanks to Mountbatten's manipulation.In order to make Pakistan possible ,Punjab had to part with its 3 rivers . In a space of just 10 weeks, 8 million muslims from east punjab were uprooted, 75000 muslims were raped, 2000 muslim women were kidnapped and sold into slavery}

Agreed.

{Yet inspite of these sacrifices there are mischievious people especially in karachi who deny this and say that it was the urduspeakers who made pakistan possible}

Pakistan would not be possible without so called Urdu speaking. Particularly Jinnah made possible the dream of Pakistan. There is no question that Pakistan would not be possible without the parts now comprising Pakistan anyway. But politics of these regions would not give an outlook of Pan Islamism to the political leaders of these areas (meaning Unionist party etc)

{The division of India was actually division of punjab and bengal . in bengal no violence took place thanks to the efforts of suharwardy and gandhi . but in punjab,hell broke loose}
That is true and it also depended on leadership of Bengal.

(Finally there was a referendum in NWFP before partition in July 1947 . People of NWFP were asked whether they wanted to join India or Pakistan and they voted 97 % for Pakistan}
Agree.

Mr.RASHID

I do not know why you bring in Sir Sikander Hayat Khan . He died in 1942 . The bottomline is that by the time elections were held in 1946, Punjabi muslims had turned towards Pakistan.Thats what counts . Had Punjab not sacrificed , there would be no pakistan . End of story.

So do not complain that Punjab takes away the tax revenue of karachi , do not complain that most soldiers are from punjab . We went through fire and hell . Do u know that the forced migration in punjab was the greatest migration in human history?

You had earlier denied the fact that Urduspeakers and Karachites control the country's industrial wealth . I stand by my assertion that Karachites have far greater wealth than that they deserve according to their population. Today an article has been published in Dawn newspaper"People who own greatest amount of wealth''. First it lists the 19 OUT OF 22 families of pre-1971 era. many of these are Karachites. Infact it was Karachi and the Urduspeaking Buisnesss elite that was responsible for the economic exploitation of bengal . The bengalis used to blame punjabis for economic exploitation but the fact was the exploitation was being done by Karachites . WHEN THIS list of 22 families was revealed by Dr. mahbub-ulhaq he was kicked out of the cabinet by the pathan Ayub Khan . And Mind you ,Mahbub-ul-haq was a punjabi!

The DAWN Article also list the names of the current 40 richest families. Again large number of them are karachites like: Hashoo, Habib,Dewan lakson,bawany,arif habib,dadhabhoy tapal,seth abid,tabani,sheikhani. I frankly admit that in this list there are many families from punjab . But then that's that . Punjab is 55 % of the population of pakiland and it will only be natural that they will have great presence in industry . But what about Karachites?? You are no more than 7-8% of country's population but you shares of industrial wealth is 5-6 times more than your due share . There is not a single i repeat a single sindhi industrial group in both the 1968 list and the New list . Similarly there is no baluchi . If any one has the right to complain it is sindhis and baluchis and not yu guys. Do you know that less than 10 percent of IBA students are Sindhis , that the Karachites and Urduspeakers outnumber sindhis by 10 to 1 in LUMS.Despite all this , you still want to bring in biharis from bangladesh? Q

Then there is a book ''The Industrial Concentration and Economic power in Pakistan" written by a gora Lawrence White . This book has different figures but the conclusion is the same . In 1970, 42 groups controlled trade and industry . Of these 24 were from Karachi 12 were from punjab ,5 were from NWFP. iN 1997, 45 FAMILIES controlled trade and industry . Of these 24 were from punjab ,18 were from karachi and 3 from NWFP. iF YOU WANT TO KNOW more about this , check this link

http://richpaki.tripod.com/whoowns.htm

One of the reasons why karachites hate ppp is that its nationalization broke their monoply over trade and industry . Zia finished bhutto but even he is disliked by karachites because he generously pampered the punjabi industrialist . it was during his time that Ittefaq grouo, chaudhry shujjat group emerged . Despite that karachites still own large share of industrial wealth . And when it comes to stock exchange and property market and media , there KARACHITES completely dominate . Infact Musharafs govt studiously avoided taxing stockexchange and real estate . I hope and pray that when nawaz sharif or benazir take over and mush is gone , these 2 sectors are throughly taxed and the stock market crash scandal is thoroughly investigated and those caught punished INSHALLAH TALLAH!

Gurdaspur was 51% muslim 4 percent christain , 4 percent qadianis and rest was hindusikh . had it not been for qadiani treachery , the division might have gone to us . fEROZEPUR ,ZIRA.ajnala,jalandhar

Ayub Khan was a Pathan by race only.Linguistically and culturally he was a Punjabi.It should be noted that in 1946 only 5 % of India's population was the vote bank.The Punjabi feudal members of the Unionist Party joined the Muslim League in between 1942 and 1945 in large numbers because they were in heavy debt to Hindu money lenders.The Memon Muslims of Bombay and Gujrat financed the Muslim League because they could not compete with the Hindu business men.The Hindustani Muslims also voted for Muslim League because they ccould not compete with Hindus in the ICA.Out of 87 Muslims in all India between 1900 and 1944 only 28 out of 87 had cleared the ICS exam.The rest came on Muslim quota without passing te ICS exam .

How can you prove Qadiani treachery ? Its a conspiracy theory gone mad ! Were all the Muslim soldiers from Punjab who collaborated with the British against Muslims in 1857 or against the tribal Pashtuns Qadianis ?

Re: # 143:-- I am referring to Son of Kashmir saying that Qadiani treachery was instrumental in Gurdaspurs accession to India ! May be he thinks that Mountbatten was a Qadiani !