Media: The more things change...

#25 Posted by zeemax
“Constitutionalism is the only way out if Pakistan is to remain in its present shape and form –“

Hehehe Zee babu you are too much into tv.

My post 17 was in response to Hamid’s post and we discussed the issues in a way that perhaps we understand. Hamidm has promised to buy a new and bigger hdtv to work hard for democracy to beat you, tahmed and romair. That is the kind of effort you can only expect from a democracy lover. I already have two 50 inch plasma TVs in my lounge and study. So my commitment to democracy in Pakistan is bigger and deeper than any of you.

How could you possibly accuse me or Hamid of “trivializing the democratic alternative” when we are doing so much for the democracy in Pakistan? I can guarantee you we are doing better than you all. And all our efforts in watching tv for couple of hours every day would bring democracy to Pakistan.

As far as your talking of constitution and then bringing in the Havayoon separatists in to the discussion, merely means that you really don’t understand what constitution is all about. Let me add a historical fact to your knowledge. Only politicians change borders. The criminals, bands of outlaws and Havayoon such as the ones in different parts of the country will not be able to do that because there is no historical precedent of that happening ever. So your wet dreams of some Islamic empire in areas like swat or malakand are just dreams. They can try but they don’t have the strength of politicians to do that.

Zee sahib/Nb,

The poor in India are more likely to vote than the rich, now whether that does anyone (including the poor) any good is a different matter.

HP sain,

Yes, indeed 60 years of democracy has not done India too much good but that was partly the result of the Nehruvian Stalinism adopted by Injuns - a bad choice but not necessarily an automatic corollary of democracy- had JLN not been a***hole things may have turned out differently. With luck and patience things may still turn diiff

#26 Posted by nb,

I doubt the millions living on roadsides in Calcutta, or squatting on railtracks in Bombay, vote anyone in or out. Do they? If they do, I stand corrected.

Zeemax #25
The Indian non-privileged/disenfranchised are a defeated and fatalistic lot content with whatever destiny sends their way.
I have no idea why you think that. Indians generally are very politically aware and change their governments with alarming frequency.

#17 Posted by HP

Believe me democracy would not change any thing in Pakistan. Btw, in the last sixty years what has democracy changed in India?

How are Pakistan and India comparable?

The Indian non-privileged/disenfranchised are a defeated and fatalistic lot content with whatever destiny sends their way.

Pakistani non-privileged/disenfranchised are a vibrant and aware people mired in discontent who know this country belongs as much to them as anyone else, and fight for their rights to it.

All they need is a viable alternative to the status-quo, likely to succeed in the long run, for them to rise and ensure it is put in place.

What will provide that alternative? The briefly independent Judiciary and Media was a big leap forward in providing just that. If that is restored to its pre-3rd November form, you will see Pakistan leapfrog in the comity of nations in no time at all.

Constitutionalism is the only way out if Pakistan is to remain in its present shape and form - as the 1973 Constitution was not only agreed upon by those who had been opposed to Pakistan's very creation, but also upheld by those who are now engaged in militancy against the State for its continued violations. Such a miraculous document can never be produced again.

If above is not achieved, the other alternative is the one already being pursued in Waziristan and Swat i.e. a loosely aligned federation of Ameers (warlords if you like) tied together with a common politico-social ideology, stretching from Malakand to Kunar on one end, and Tank to Kandhar on the other. No one can prevent that process firmly underway. Don't know about Baluchistan but once the Pakistani federation falls, that will be up for the highest bidder.

In that event, the hamidms and the HPs can ponder over WTF happened and what should they do now with the remaining Punjab and Sindh? I say remaining Punjab because you can count out Seraiki belt as well.

So don't trivialize the democratic alternative just yet. It is now or never.

Re: # 22 Posted by hamidm2 on December 1, 2007 8:23:25 pm

[... we are not a 'mustakil mazaj' people ...] are we "dynamic mizaaj" then?

Re: # 10 Posted by HP on December 1, 2007 6:02:49 am

[... and Punjabi moderates like Nawaz and Imran..]

Huh! Since when has Nawaz become a moderate? And that idiot Imran is just a "yo-yo" without any political direction. Come on can you not give a better evaluation of these so-called Pakistani politicians?

Re: # 19

bj,

.... you don't really understand us pakis ... we are different ..... believe me, i sincerely wanted democracy a few weeks ago but now that it seems inevitable, i am bored and looking forward to our next dictator ........ we are not a 'mustakil mazaj' people .......

Re: # 17

hp,

.... thanks for explaining this strange phenomenon of our obsession with democracy - i agree with you that change is a human need ... but why can't we just swap dictators every five years ?..... now that geo is back on air i will do my best to do my part ...... i would hate to think that folks like tahmed, romair and zeemax did more for the cause of democracy in pakistan than me ......... i might even go out and buy a big screen plasma hdtv and a new couch ...... i still have ten cases of salsa and chips left over from the y2k fiasco .........

#12 Posted by hamidm2:

"........what happened ?..... "

Don't know. Had a Pakistani friend over for lunch today. The Mrs. and me were surprised for she "talked" politics throughout the afternoon. Previously she would talk only about extremely boring things like "derivatives", "options", "Sienna" etc. So something must have happened. On the other hand, her husband repeated the same story about "heera mandi" that we have heard maybe 100 times. So, then again, nothing might have happened.

#17 HP

Kambakhat HP, if you are trying to turn funny now - it is too little, too late...

And too lame!

Re: # 12

Hamidm Sahib:

Whoever thought you were for DEMOCRACY FIRST. Certainly not me. Although, I thought your first priority would be that glass of fine nectar, which cannot be used to wash unwashed masses. You are turning into patriot Pakistani. Are you slipping?

#12 Posted by hamidm2

“i am afraid i have lost interest in democracy, independence of the judiciary, freedom of the press and other trappings of a civilized society”

I don’t blame you for losing interest. The whole affair is for people that are genetically manufactured differently. Judiciary, Freedom of the press or even democracy should be such a necessary part of any society that no one should really give them any time of the day.

In some other post I had already written that The CJ or any of the stalwart for the democracy or the rule of law, are not some hard nut committed ideologues (Asadi) who would dedicate their lives for lofty goals like democracy or the rule of law. They have always been part of the system and would prefer not to change the system as long as it works for them. The CJ droopy eyes or not, never shied away from grabbing more power through whatever means. At present his means to remaining in power was not to stick with Musharaf. Give him Kiyani as President and Nawaz as PM; the same CJ will take oath under PCO 3.

Have you ever wondered why the democracy is such a success nowadays? It goes to the mercurial nature of the human being. We need change and need it frequently. Kings used to govern for decades until some other king or his son would dethrone the king.

Now with new means of production and development, the attention span has also shortened. Now no one wants to wait decades to get a new ruler. They want that change in five years and eight years. Democracy is the only system that suits the current state of human mind. So it is important that we in Pakistan should also have the ability to change the president or the PM every five years. The problem with the army generals is that they don’t have enough smarts to figure this out and they attempt to stay in power forever. Since that conflicts with the human nature, every few years or so Pakistani start clamoring for change. I don’t support democracy for some high or lofty goals I have that can only be achieved through democracy.

Believe me democracy would not change any thing in Pakistan. Btw, in the last sixty years what has democracy changed in India? 700 million still squat on railroad tracks. Compared to 1947, the percentage point movement in India for people using railroad tracks is about half a percent. So I doubt that Pashtoon would stop spitting naswar on every street or the Mohajir would stop chewing Paan and spitting on the marble fronts of Karachi buildings because Pakistan would become a democratic country due to the current struggle.

Like you, I too lose interest in a very short period of time. My attention span is not any longer than yours so I want a system in Pakistan which allows people like me and you to not worry about changing a president or seek help for the US or the hellfire, when we are tired of one Mushy or one BB or Botox, who would not give up until they are shown the door with force. That is the only reason I support democracy and I think you should agree with me too here that why do we need to watch Geo or ARY every five to eight years to make sure that our watching the TV would change the president in Pakistan. I am sure you can get a hang of what I am saying. I hope this long post has tested your attention span already.

Of-course the point below, in case you miss it, is that the Chief Election Commissioner ruled against the sitting government.

Compare that with the present times when the entire superior judiciary is thrown out when it is suspected of doing the same.

bulleya,

However I've found a particular item after a bit of googling (amongst mostly typical character assassination on the subject including a chowk article) which you might find interesting.

This is dated 7 October 1999. Remember Nawaz Sharif was still Prime Minister on that date.

The other fact it states is that Sethi was picked up by ISI i.e. the army. I maintain though that he was picked up by MI under the Army Act.

http://www.canada.ifex.org/alerts/content/view/full/9102

Election Commissioner dismisses petition against editor Najam Sethi

Country/Topic: Pakistan
Date: 07 October 1999
Source: Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ)
Person(s): Najam Sethi
Target(s): journalist(s)
Type(s) of violation(s):
Urgency:

(CPJ/IFEX) - After a two-hour hearing on 6 October 1999, the Chief Election Commissioner of Pakistan dismissed a petition that sought to exclude embattled editor Najam Sethi from political life by having him declared non-Muslim.

The petition was filed on 24 June by legislator Syed Zafar Ali Shah, a member of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's ruling party. It sought to disqualify Sethi, who is the founding editor of the Lahore-based English weekly "The Friday Times", from voting or running for office by requesting that his name be struck from voters' lists if he "does not fulfill the requirements of a Muslim," as defined in Article 260-3 of Pakistan's constitution.

The petition also charged that a speech that Sethi delivered before a New Delhi audience on April 30 violated Articles 62(h) and 63-1(g) of the constitution, which prohibits people whose speech or actions are deemed prejudicial to the "ideology of Pakistan" from holding any elected office.

The Chief Election Commissioner, Muhammed Qadeer, did not elaborate on his decision. Lawyers on both sides of the case presented documentary evidence only.

Sethi was arrested at his home in Lahore on 8 May, and was detained for nearly a month in the custody of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, the army's intelligence unit. Government statements indicated that Sethi was being investigated for "anti-state" activities, including his New Delhi speech, as well as alleged collaboration with Indian intelligence operatives.

CPJ believes, however, that the Sharif government has been targeting Sethi for his consistently critical coverage of official corruption, as well as for giving an interview to a BBC documentary crew that was producing a program on corruption within the prime minister's family.

Sethi and his family have also been fighting more than two dozen cases of tax evasion, all of which appear to be politically motivated.

#13 Posted by bulleya,

bulleya, we have had this discussion at length and more will be just repetitive. Sethi was National Security Adviser (or Adviser on National Security .. as these things are named) in the Malik Meraj Khalid caretaker Government immediately preceding his second term. I may be wrong on the exact title of his post but he had the status of Federal Minister.

However, you may like to answer a question of mine as well. Why didn't Nawaz Sharif shut down Friday Times?