6th December 1992

Re: # 84
May be. But let parliament,state assembly etc...decide that. All of us are supposed to be following the principle of democracy.

Re: # 82
If PVN would have imposed 356 on UP Gov. and not allowed the Kar Sevaks to enter the site, the entire matter would have been different. It was quite clear to PVN that, Advani could not control the mob to perform only Kar Seva. People like Sadvi Ritamvara etc... they have no political ambition from this work. Why should they control themselves? Only LK Advani wanted to use this as part of his political gameplan.

Look, every now and then RSS/VHP would have brought the issue. It was difficult for congress to stop the hysteria that time. Open economy and increased opportunity has changed middle class in India. They are now aloof from Ram temple movement. Advani can not create another such movement now.

VRV, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And I don't deny all the things you mentioned. Still Babri Masjid had to go.

As 4 Liberhan Commission or any Commission, they are (Commission Reports) a little bettar than toilet rolls.

81,

nkg,

No doubt the PVNR and Sangh played cat and mouse but the Sangh made several gashes on India in the whole process. BJP took advantage of the state jurisdiction on law and order. Kalyan Singh did everything in his power to demolish the structure. Advani did everything to gather this monkey brigade around Ayodhya.

As 4 Liberhan Commission or any Commission in India that imnplicates the culprits, they are (Commission Reports) a little bettar than a toilet rolls.

In the whole process:

a. State (country) looked stupid
b. Law and Order facade was torn apart
c. Judiciary was fooled
d. Country lost it's ppl
e. Economy tottered (it just stood on its feet after a huge dent in 1991, where we had to mortgage our gold to Bank of England and borrow heavily from the World Bank)
f. The Repressentation of Peoples Act was made redundant
g. Gullible masses were mobilised for an illegal and unconstitutional act (6/12).

the ONLY entity that gained from the episode is the BJP which increased its tally in the Parliament and state assemblies.

Re: # 71
In fact, PV Narashimha Rao has tried to destroy BJP, by allowing the destruction of structure. It is no loss to India. Moslems and Indians has clashed with each other before Ram temple movement also ( UP, Gujrat, Hubli etc.. was notorious for that). So, another riot is nothing to bother P V N. But once the destructtion is over, the legal autorities will take over the site, and BJP/VHP/RSS people will not be allowed to take up any construction activity. That will prove the failure of BJP. BJP/VHP/RSS in fact expected that, they will come to power one day in the state and centre and change the constitution to build Ram temple. May be as concession will rebuild the mosque in another site. That is not possible, as the matter is under court. So, entire gameplan of BJP backfired and their top leader L K Advani is in constant threat of being implicated by Liberhan commission. Today, if Sonai Gandhi is out of jail and Congress is getting enough breathing space related to Bofors, then it is the policy of PVN to allow the VHP people to destriy the structure. The BMAC is constantly backed by Congress.

Re: # 71
In fact, PV Narashimha Rao has tried to destroy BJP, by allowing the destruction of structure. It is no loss to India. Moslems and Indians has clashed with each other before Ram temple movement also ( UP, Gujrat, Hubli etc.. was notorious for that). So, another riot is nothing to bother P V N. But once the destructtion is over, the legal autorities will take over the site, and BJP/VHP/RSS people will not be allowed to take up any construction activity. That will prove the failure of BJP. BJP/VHP/RSS in fact expected that, they will come to power one day in the state and centre and change the constitution to build Ram temple. May be as concession will rebuild the mosque in another site. That is not possible, as the matter is under court. So, entire gameplan of BJP backfired and their top leader L K Advani is in constant threat of being implicated by Liberhan commission. Today, if Sonai Gandhi is out of jail and Congress is getting enough breathing space related to Bofors, then it is the policy of PVN to allow the VHP people to destriy the structure. The BMAC is constantly backed by Congress.

Idiot Paaki.

I was talking abt some Hindoo fundoos who tomtom abt Bharat Maata but do not mind to milk her. That was the metaphor involved.

For thick skinned and demented Paakis, it's not surprising to see them jump like monkeys in glee.

It's going over ur head. Have some sense indiot Paaki. As I said earlier, u are an ideological eunuch. Lets have this durable duel on UP but not here. So be there u nasal.

#77 VRV

Read #74 once again.

This time you have been caught with your pants down. And the world has noticed the testicular vaccum.

HA HA HA !!!!! LOL!! LOL!!!! ROTFL!!!!

Idiot indian !!!! no principles, no values, only hypocrisy.....

The stalker in question said abt me being a mufukkar (may be a Urdu word with some good meeaning) but I took it as an abuse (mofcukker) & there's an obvious mix-up then.

There's a clear communication gap & this nasal want to vomit the old post to stink the place.

Bugger off.

#74 Posted by okhla99 on December 10, 2007 6:37:37 pm

As for hypocricy, u guys know it better.

Pl don't address any post to me. Hope that helps.

Re: # 70: Jang Sahab "Churri" bagal mein nahiin kalai mein pahnii jaatii hai! Salim is our Chowk's Rafique Zakaria. I wish there were a million more like him.

At any rate interesting to read your adherence to the concept of karma.

#71, VRV/Folio

Why are you talking about "fcukking mother india" again and again????

There used to be a time when you were totally into protecting the "honour" of the mothers of the world.
Your post #475 from December 2006 is reproduced below :


**** I responded to the offesinve meaning it conveyed. No normal human being takes a word that demeans the status of mothers. Woman is the mother of this world. I dont want to hear such words that pulls down the status of mother.

If u think I did it (respond that way) intentionally, yes I admit I did it inorder to uphold a mother`s honour. If u think I am guilty, yes I am, for mother`s sake. Full Stop.
*****



But now you appear to have taken a complete about turn as far as mother's honour is concerned.

So typical of the hypocrite indians........

last line:

'to be' i/o 'to be a'

Jang #70 {"salim besides acting bania, you also seem to have churri up your bagal..i said inspite of our blemishes..that hardly means overlooking them. we will take care of the blemishes with our own karma-based schemes..no excuses"}

Merey Bhai,
Kabhi baghal meN churi, kabhi saleebi khwaab. Kya aapki tabiyaat theek he? Jang, yaar, you have developed a habit for scraping your rusty kirpan against very tender tissue. :) Then all of a sudden you want to acknowledge blemishes, but not as open sores.

Qasmi,

It's not a pan-Hindu or pan-Indian 'US vs Them' thing. The whole 6/12 was 'managed' by the fledgling BJP. This 6/12 pitchforked them to a highest point soon afterwards. Now they cant create another Ayodhya again.

Earlier they tested the ppl of India for a mass movement with Ekatmata Yagna where they took Ganga Jal to all towns in India for a possible mass hysteria. Once they got the result +ve they took up this buried issue i.e Ayodhya, though it's not wrong to say that Rajiv Gandhi dotted the 'i's and crossed the 't's which ultimately worked in BJP's favour.

BJP gained @ nation's expense.

So much 4 their desh bhakti that they didnt mind fcukking Mother India - economically and politcally, though they did it earlier by forcing an election on India when VP Singh was the PM which means a loss of 700 crores (4 conducting Parliemant elections) & what followed the fall of Babri Masjid was the loss of (public and private) property, loss of revenue to GOI & states, loss of productivity (riots & bandhs) and depletion of market capitalisation @ BSE and NSE.

The so called the desh bhakts fuckked Mother India for several thousand crores and what they got in return is power for 5 yrs. It's a LT lesson for India, whilst being a phyrric voctory for BJP/RSS.

It's also wrong to say that AIBMAC and the likes of Syed Shahbuddins didnt help Sangh Parivar in inflating this bubble to the point of a burst.

The Sangh and Millat traded in dead bodies during 1992 and afterwards.

Finally, Dawood Ibrahim turned into an external enemy whereas Advani & Modi became internal enemies of India whilst pretending to be a mothafcukking desh bhakts.

salim besides acting bania, you also seem to have churri up your bagal..i said inspite of our blemishes..that hardly means overlooking them. we will take care of the blemishes with our own karma-based schemes..no excuses.

#66, #67, Inquirer Sahib,
Happy to note your welcome presence. Thanks.

anil #65 {"Now, now is someone not being greedy? Only a Hindu Bania can suggest such a trade. Please re-examine the family tree, is it really Muslim Rajput? Are there Muslim Banias also? "}

Anil Bhai,
Next you are going to tell me that you have to be a bania to be a wife-swapper?
Oh! yes, there are Muslim Banias - haven't you heard of Patels, Gandhis, and Jinnas? :)

#66 refers to Salim Chauhan.

Happy to see your continued good work.

Re: # 60

Salim Sahib:

"In fact, I think that the Hagia Sofia should be restored to a church, a purpose for which it was built by Justinian. Also, the Great Mosque of Cordoba should be restored to a mosque, a purpose for which it was started by Omayyad Caliph Abdur Rahman."

Now, now is someone not being greedy? Only a Hindu Bania can suggest such a trade. Please re-examine the family tree, is it really Muslim Rajput? Are there Muslim Banias also?

Jang #63 {"now, hows the plan for moving gian vapi masjid pathar-by-pathar to jinahpur coming along? i want a status report on my desk on UP first thing in the morning."}

Jang,
Very happy that you can overlook blemishes like Jabalpur, Delhi, and Gujarat. I like it when people can be so forgiving.

As for your desire to move some buildings, go ahead and get the RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/BD/SS goons to use their claws to bring them down. If your desk is on UP, then how the hell do you expect me to move those buildings? Also, knowing your credit history, I want you to send a retainer before I put anything on your desk on UP, MP, AP, CP, HP, or PP.

salim bhaijan, india is unique with 15+ % monirity population with a troubled past post 1857. any country with that kinda dynamics would not have it easy, we are proud if what we have inspite of the blemishes inspite of the stupid "secularist" causing us all kinda trouble.

now, hows the plan for moving gian vapi masjid pathar-by-pathar to jinahpur coming along? i want a status report on my desk on UP first thing in the morning.

muqaddam #61 {"...a good Muslim can go to the local mosque and offers prayers, study in the madrassa, become a maulana and a bad Muslim can enjoy all the harram things including wine and women.
... secularism in India has taken deep roots, and barring such blemishes, it is flowering as a federal, multicultural secular democracy, a beacon for many developing countries "}

Muqaddam,
I tend to agree with your points. As we say in Turkey "we don't drink in the mosques and don't pray in the bars." :)

As for India, unfortunately, when the blemishes do spurt out they do so with such ferocity and such horrific numbers that the word "secular" is easily wiped out as the police and officials either enjoy the spectacle if they are somewhat professional or actually join in the fray which is more often the case.

Fifteen years have passed since the incident, and India has moved on. Babri Masjid might have at that point of time become a sort of symbol because of the hype it got from the press, but Muslim Indians have over the years let it slide into the background although there might be a little rancour. That is why the press in India has taken little notice of the anniversary. Likewise the assault on the Golden Temple has become history, there are hardly any Sikhs who want to rake up the issue, what's done is done. An average Muslim in India enjoys total freedom of religion, a good Muslim can go to the local mosque and offers prayers, study in the madrassa, become a maulana and a bad Muslim can enjoy all the harram things including wine and women.
No point in flogging a dead horse, see, had Chowk been in existence when the event occurred, ther would have been a flood of articles and incessant posts from angry Muslims from the Subcontinent. The response to this article is almost apolegetic.
The writer of the article need not worry, secularism in India has taken deep roots, and barring such blemishes, it is flowering as a federal, multicultural secular democracy, a beacon for many developing countries

Anil #49 {"Hagia Sofia, that Salim mentioned, I had an opportunity to see. If you want to even think about tolerant Islam you must visit it. If you want to think of fanatics of religions send them there. A Islamic country could have the courage to convert a place into museum, yet another fails in Al-Aqsa, or fails in Ramjanambhoomi / Babri Masjid."}

Anil Bhai,
Thank you very much for highlighting the example of Hagia Sofia that was set by Mustafa Kemal Pasha Ataturk. Yes, at the fall of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Ghazi Mehmet II did convert the famous church into a mosque - recalling that in 1236, the Christians of Spain, after launching the Reconquista, had converted the largest enclosed mosque in the world at that time, the Great Mosque of Cordoba, into a cathedral. After establishing the Turkish Republic, Ataturk unilaterally designated Hagia Sofia as a museum and the Turks restored the frescos and artwork that was whitewashed by the Ottomans.

In fact, I think that the Hagia Sofia should be restored to a church, a purpose for which it was built by Justinian. Also, the Great Mosque of Cordoba should be restored to a mosque, a purpose for which it was started by Omayyad Caliph Abdur Rahman.

We should identify all such places and reach logical, fair, and humane accommodations without even thinking of violence or destruction. But then, I am only a Rajput Muslim ...

Cobra #51 {"What did these guys say when bamian was pulled down? .. Is the time of Turkic adventurism revealed for what it was- a mongol like invasion- or is that depicted as a proud moment for the Turkic tribes?"}

Cobra,
Although I wasn't there to witness their reaction to the Bamian Buddha desecration, I am sure that their disgust would have been even more in emphasis. After all, those who destroyed the Bamian Buddha were "Islamic" extremists performing devilish things in the name of our religion.
The "adventure" of the Turks that you describe is attibuted to the Crusades. After having defeated the last of the Crusaders in the 13th century, Turks immediately launched invasions of countries through which the Crusaders came to eastern Anatolia. In fact, Saladin was planning a naval invasion of France and England after the end of the Third Crusade. He died before the plans could be formulated.

cobra #54 {"Salim, and do your Turk friends accept Armenian genocide? "}

Cobra,
Most of them are not aware of Kim Kardashian's abuse at the hands (actually other limbs) of Ray J. :) I agree that Armenians deserve much better treatment.

Re: # 56

Dost Sahib:

Political leaders have elections to win, constituencies to build their power base. In democracy, how can they be more different than the people. It is after all by the people, for the people....

Modi gets elected certainly means his ideology has a currency that people accept. Emotions are part and parcel of all of us. No one is left out.

anil:

It is true that mobs are moved by emotive slogans, but I was not thinking of the mobs but of responsible political leadership, especially the prime minister and chief minister who are not expected to be governed by emotions, after they have won the election.

cobra:

"Dost sahib, if you expect us to forgive and forget then that ain’t happening."

Forgive, but not forget! Do not forget that it was a Hindu community divided by caste where 95% of the population had no responsibility for defending the country and that 5% too had been rendered practically useless after Buddha as kshatriyas were among the disciples of their fellow Kshatriya, Buddha. India must remain strong; we learnt that lesson once again after Nehru followed Buddha's policies and Chinese taught a neat little lesson.

Jang, Indian leftists cannot completely claim blameless in the Babri affaair. It was, indeed, V.P. Gupta who almost forced Advani to activate his rath yatra. You see, both Advani and the communist Surjit were quite cooperative in supporting VP Singh's govt. in 1990 but his deputy, Devi Dayal, raised the jaat bogey to bolster his support base, by seeking additional quotas for his jaats. V.P. Singh tried to undercut him by taking up the Mandal issue, which created serious problems for the BJP, whose upper-caste base was badly affected by the Mandal recommendations but which it could not oppose because it was trying to expand its appeal to the lower castes. So, Advani took up his rath yatra to create a hindu vote bank. As they saying went at that time, Advani brought out the kamandal (Hindu sadhus) to fight Mandal.

Salim, and do your Turk friends accept Armenian genocide?

"#32 Posted by dost_mittar on December 8, 2007 2:53:28 am
You are so right, Mr. Qasmi. 6th December is one of the saddest days in independent India's history. Not only because a mosque was razed, but also because it was razed in full glare of official machinery, including police, looking on. "

No it wasn't. The saddest day was when the so called protectors of the people implicitly or explicitly participated in killing innocent people, raping women and butchering pregnant women. That happened a decade later.

#49, Anil, my stand on Ram Setu is that it should be demolished if it's coming in way on economic development.

"Many other Turks, watched this scene with horror, and kept exclaiming "Jami, Jami" - "Mosque, Mosque" with shock and disgust."

What did these guys say when bamian was pulled down? Did they express similar disgust? And do you know how the history is portrayed in Turkey? Is the time of Turkic adventurism revealed for what it was- a mongol like invasion- or is that depicted as a proud moment for the Turkic tribes?

Re: # 49

Cobra:

I also wanted to mention that these "Indians" are ready to take on modernization in the name of another fabled Ram Sethu.

Where do you stand on it as well?

If Ram could build this Ram Sethu then, why modern India cannot build another Sethu to connect its West Coast and East Coast?

Re: # 47

Cobra:

My entire point to Dost-Mitter and now to you as well, is that these are extremely complex issues and simplistic logic must never be applied.

Dost says historical wrongs cannot be righted... ; and you say that it applies equally.

Such thinking results wrong action and reactions. Salim Sahib indeed made very vaaluable points. To me that part of the world has overdose of religions. Education will help, schools will help more than the fight over bricks and mortars of old unworshipped mosque, or fabled birthplace.

Would you rather have young India create a modern India, or spill blood over it?

Hagia Sofia, that Salim mentioned, I had an opportunity to see. If you want to even think about tolerant Islam you must visit it. If you want to think of fanatics of religions send them there. A Islamic country could have the courage to convert a place into museum, yet another fails in Al-Aqsa, or fails in Ramjanambhoomi / Babri Masjid.

My vote is strong for a modern India. Where the real power and wealth oozes out from its people for the knowledge economy, just as Saudi oil oozed out for the automobile economy.

Only Indians, bogged down to fight and spill blood over old bricks and mortar, if ever they become majority, can blow it. This won't be the first time that India blew it and made it easier for outsiders to walk in.

Think differently. I want to borrow it from Apple. India and Indians have done it many times in the past.

So Cobra, think differently.

#32 Posted by dost_mittar on December 8, 2007 2:53:28 am


historical wrongs can not be righted


that applies equally to the chaddis going nuts for a mythological figure and muslims rioting after the babri masjid was destroyed...

#40,

"Another truth is the struggle for righting the wrong continues."

So you agree Hindu's can't be exception to that! We can't be devoid of same feelings as other communities. At least grant us that much.

Jinna Bhai had nothing to do with Babri Masjid. If anything congressi minority appeasement policy can be directly tied to it.

Anil, are you saying that if the Babri Masjid was not demolished every thing was hokey-dory between Hindus and Muslims?

Qasmi Sahab donot oversimplify a complictaed issue because then you are problem maker not desirous of the dvelopment of detente.
Problem arose in the activities of the perpetrators of which the chief was Jinnah! Truly a British agent.

Jang,
Furtheremore, thanks to our fratricidal suicide boomers, the infidel have stopped asking "Why do they hate us so much?" Instead they are all saying "Look, they hate themselves much more than they hate us." This gives Islam a much more egalitarian outlook and no wonder Allah's faith is spreading almost as fast as Mormonism and Mirzaism.

#39 Jang {"perfect fodder for BJP to gain so many seats..wagons were circled overnight. ram janambhoomi was a brilliant political excercise of uniting "hindus" politically and destruction of babri mosque was a deliberate act symbolising that the BJP would be an action-taking party and not just rabble-rousing"}

Jang,
You are right about the issue being hijacked by BJP to temporarily united Hindus and get power for themselves. But Yaar, why do Hindus unite and behave badly exclusively at the expense of non-Hindus like Sikhs and Muslims. The BJP recycled the same old issue in 2002 and won another election.

These BJP guys need to take notes from Muslim leaders. Most of the time our leaders unite one set of Muslims against another Muslim sect. This way only Muslims get hurt and there is no universal clamor about blood-thirsty Muslims. Of course, AlKayda violated this rule and killed thousands of non-Muslims (including hundreds of Muslims) and thus earned international condemnation and wrath. Thankfully, some competent Muslim leaders in Eye Rak and Pakiland corrected this problem by killing ten-fold the number of Muslims in intra-Islamic suicidal and fratricidal display of Muslim unity and circling of camels.

Jang #36 {"Salim yar, we indians are generally pretty lovey-dovey with Akbar.. We dont complain about bihari sons-of-soil like Sher-sha suri and even like bahadursha jafar. mugal-e-ajam was an alltime hit..... we only consdier ghori and abdali as luteyras."}

Jang,
You conveniently left out one of the greatest of the Timuri clan, Maharaja Aurangjeb, whose dadi and pardadi were both Hindu Rajputs and who was born in Hindustan. Placing your thumb up or down in reaction to the opinions of gora Angrej historians is very Chachaesque.

#32, DM Sahib,
You are absolutely right about demolition of Babri Masjid being the wrong thing to do. Of course the really right thing to do would have been the Muslim leaders' willingness to join Hindus in discussing the importance of their perception that the masjid stood on sacred ground. Furthermore, they should have discussed the possibility and cost/benefit of moving the structure to another location.

Needless to say, nobody can ever accuse Muslim leaders, especially in India, of using sound judgment or of ever looking out for the true interests of anyone, least of all Muslims.

Re: # 32

Dost-Mitter:

"...The main pont against the destruction of the Babri masjid is that historical wrongs can not be righted, otherwise there would be no end to communal and ethnic strife. ..."

This is too logical to apply to emotional and illogical lives people lead. Osama is also trying to right a historical wrong (albeit recent history). I am certain when buildings (including temples and mosques), universities etc. were being demolished, the demolishers strongly felt that they were righting the wrong.

The truth is those who have power have always gotten away with criminal acts, be it babri masjid, or katl-e-aam from moti masjid. Another truth is the struggle for righting the wrong continues. One more question, just whose right one is fighting for or against. I am sure lawyers in Pakistan feel they are righting a wrong, while Musharraff sees it completely opposite. Like Modi and his followers believe their criminal acts are right.

Some emotions just simply do not die, because people have long memories.

cobra, indian secularist do raise this question, you see, its na reahn bas, na baje bansuri. if ram does not really exist, how the f can we have ram janam bhoomi? by this argument those demanding ram janambhoomi are neatly reduced to ignorant fools.

perfect fodder for BJP to gain so many seats..wagons were circled overnight. ram janambhoomi was a brilliant political excercise of uniting "hindus" politically and destruction of babri mosque was a deliberate act symbolising that the BJP would be an action-taking party and not just rabble-rousing.

they managed to convince the electorate on this single issue, and made history. now offcourse the issue is used-up.

"real question is 'Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple built on the birth-place of Ram".


No the real question is Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple, period.

Re: # 17
"Muslims were already polarised"...
It is not true. First, the islamic terrorism in Kashmir on Kashimiris ( Pundits). The ugly side of Islam was exposed to the newer generation on that time ( After post partion India). One of my college students, was studying in REC Srinagar (late 1980s). The chilling experience he described to us (he had lost 2 years for the terrorism in Kashmir) was enough to get the taste of islamic barbarism. Then, flood of Bangladeshi non-moslems immigrants in Calcutta and neighbouring districts exposed the islamic barbarism in Eastern front. So, far we had the idea that moslems are petty criminals as they are poor and illiterate. The religious angle was fully exposed that time. Then came Ram temple movement. North Indian states has seen upper caste consolidation with OBCs. Arab money started pouring in Indian mosques and moslems has started being aware that, there vote share is enough in the fractured mandate to change the fate of political parties. And then this entire trouble ( RSS/Upper caste/Moslems).In my village or early years of college, I have not seen any such matter called somebody is moslem. They were very few and we were quite good friends.

yar DM salim is not asking tough question, the real question is asked by indians themselves, who ask for proof that Ram was born. So Salims question is nothing..real question is 'Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple built on the birth-place of Ram".

Salim yar, we indians are generally pretty lovey-dovey with Akbar, he is considered one the major political uniters of india almost unanimously. We dont complain about bihari sons-of-soil like Sher-sha suri and even like bahadursha jafar. mugal-e-ajam was an alltime hit..so your accusation that we consider all the members of the house of timur as ferner (inspite of taking dilli from biharis) looteyras is wrong. we only consdier ghori and abdali as luteyras.

Re: # 18
During Naxalite movement, almost a generation of the youth of Bengal was killed by police there. They were university and college toppers, not madrassa bread terrorists. When police think somebody is against them, they will kill. Police does not see moslem or non-moslem.

God is not a Homeless Man. God does not need Roti, Kapra aur Makaan. duh-uh. case closed.

Dost sahib, if you expect us to forgive and forget then that ain’t happening. Muslims would do the same if this happens to Mecca. Christians would also behave similarly if it happens to Rome. Jews, surprisingly didn't do it for their holey shrine may be because they survive n Christian backing and they don't want to antagonize their Muslims further. It really doesn't matter how would others behave. These are our places of worship and we have right to reclaim them back.
I'm not asking for treating Muslims as second class citizens for the Historic wrongs of their assumed forefather (for majority of Indian Muslims are decedents of native population and had nothing to do with invaders). The demand is to reclaim what is rightfully ours. Bamian Buddha statue were not built on earlier razed places of warship. So the comparison is idiotic. I'm not in favor of destruction of any monument per say. I would have favored the relocating the masjid somewhere.

You are so right, Mr. Qasmi. 6th December is one of the saddest days in independent India's history. Not only because a mosque was razed, but also because it was razed in full glare of official machinery, including police, looking on. The hooligans had issued ample warning, so the state could not say that it was unprepared. The state watched while its laws were flouted and a proud minority felt that it could not count on the protection of the state to safeguard its rights. There had been sporadic rights in India even earlier but never before did the state from the prime minister down looked the other way as a precious symbol of the minority was demolished.

Those who say that it was not an active mosque are missing the point. The mosque had become a symbol. One wonders if the communal polarization in India would have taken place if the Babri masjid had not been demolished. Yes, the Muslims could have and perhaps should have accepted Vajpayee's offer (I am not sure if the RSS did it too) to move the mosque brick by brick; doing so would have earned the gratitude of the Hindu community; but they had the right to refuse the offer and let the matter be decided by the courts which had been debating the issue for several decades.

Salim:
"Your logic and certainty are both dismal. What proof is there that the Babri Masjid was built by Muslims after they razed the Ram Temple in Ayodhya?"

You are raising a false issue. It does not matter whether there was a Ram Temple at that site or not, just as it does not matter whether the Quran is the word of God or not. The fact is that many Hindus beleive that the mosque was built on the site of a temple (and I think that there are some Muslim chronicler's writing to support that). In any case, there is documentary evidence of many mosques having been built over razed temples; would it be justified to raze them and rebuild temples there? The main pont against the destruction of the Babri masjid is that historical wrongs can not be righted, otherwise there would be no end to communal and ethnic strife.

Stuka #30 {"Till date there has been no Muslim leader in India who has organized his community for legitimate socio-economic gain."}

Stuka,
Sadly, you may be right about that. :( Sir Syed Ahmad Khan may have been the last one.

"Stuka,
If Habib Jilani indeed did that, he was much more than a fool - a reckless, stupid, and insensitive idiot. "

Not really. He was only doing what hew knew best - politics of confrontation. Till date there has been no Muslim leader in India who has organized his community for legitimate socio-economic gain. Even the Choodas do better than the Miyas on that score.

Stuka #28 {"Sirji, that was exactly the offer made by the RSS. ... Habeeb Jilani of the BMAC turned it down. ...The demolishing of the Babri Masjid was also a message to the Muslim hardliners that if push comes to shove, you will lose. If Muslims are to take one step towards Hindu concerns, Hindus will take two. But not ten. It is no longer the time of Aurangzeb. "}

Stuka,
If Habib Jilani indeed did that, he was much more than a fool - a reckless, stupid, and insensitive idiot.
You may take it as a matter of winning or losing, I see it as a matter of backwardness, violent bigotry, and blatantly uncivilized behavior. Whether it's the Tally Ban at Bamiyan, Islamic jihadists in NWFP, or RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/BD/SS Hindutva zealots in Ayodhya, Gujarat, or Mumbai, such actions are detestable.

BTW, Aurangzeb built many Hindu temples. Also, Akbar gave Amritsar as a gift to Sikhs. So don't use Mughals as examples of bigotry or destruction - there have been worse, e.g. BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SS. Let's hope we can find logical solutions to such simple problems, instead of allowing bigots to loot, burn, destroy, rape, mutilate, and kill.

" If I were in your place, I would have gathered money and moved the structure, brick by brick, to another location (even sent it to Pakistan!), and then build a great monument to the Ram in its place. You would have your temple, an ancient mosque would have been presesrved, and right-wing Hindutvas would not have appeared as hyenas competing for the biggest piece of a carcass. Just my advice. Thanks.
"

Sirji, that was exactly the offer made by the RSS. Not to send it to Pakistan, but to have the mosque right next to the tempple perimeter. Habeeb Jilani of the BMAC turned it down. The Muslims of Ayodhya were actually far more sensitive to Hindu concerns compared to the Hraami Muslim leaders who formed the BMAC. The BMAC was formed only by ex Congressi politicians of UP / Bihar who were showing a total hardline. The demolishing of the Babri Masjid was also a message to the Muslim hardliners that if push comes to shove, you will lose. If Muslims are to take one step towards Hindu concerns, Hindus will take two. But not ten. It is no longer the time of Aurangzeb.

"Some other sites subject to right-wing Hindu revisionist thinking - Badshahi Mosque, Lahore, BaRa and Chota ImambaRas, Lucknow, Jama Masjid, Delhi and don't forget Faisal Mosque in Islamabad. "

As far as I know the demand is for three, Kashi, Mathura and ayodhya.

Cobra #21 {"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places?

Cobray,
I have already asnwered your question earlier. Now, please allow me to intrduce some sensible advice to the right-wing Hindutva RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/SS/BD goons who destroyed the historical Babri Masjid in '92. Actually, I saw the images when I was on a vist to Turkey during the winter of '92 and I saw a crazy mob of what appeared to be drug-crazed ugly barbarians vengefully demolishing a poor ancient structure.
Many other Turks, watched this scene with horror, and kept exclaiming "Jami, Jami" - "Mosque, Mosque" with shock and disgust.

Now, if, as you claim, the exact site of the Babri Masjid was the location of Ram's temple, there were many civilized ways to satisfy everyone. I believe you when you say that it was a holy Hindu site. If I were in your place, I would have gathered money and moved the structure, brick by brick, to another location (even sent it to Pakistan!), and then build a great monument to the Ram in its place. You would have your temple, an ancient mosque would have been presesrved, and right-wing Hindutvas would not have appeared as hyenas competing for the biggest piece of a carcass. Just my advice. Thanks.

#14 Shore Sahib {"Pakistani Muslims werent any better after the Babri Masjid Episode.

There tore down hindu temples all over Pakistan. I personally saw mobs demolish two hindu temples in lahore's inner walled city."}

Shore Sahib,
And that is just as stupid and unpardonable as the Babri Masjid demolition. Whether in anger or out of sheer hatred, destruction of historical buildings is a total betrayal of the lack of civilization in the destructive barbarains. Please add the Tally Ban destroying the Bamiyan Budhha to this list of barbarians.

#21 Cobra {"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places? "}

While both you and Jang are upset to the point of RSS pitch, neither of you have documented how the Musliims destroyed and razed the existing Hindu temple to Ram and then constructed the Babri Masjid.

As for destroying Mecca Kabah, what do you think the Great Mosque of Cordoba was? It was constructed by Omayyad Caliph Abbur Rahman as an alternative to performing Haj in Mecca which was under Abbasid control. As you probably should know, the Christians conquered Cordoba in 1236 and were going to destroy the Great Mosque. The Cordobans, who loved their mosque so much, requested the Christians to not destroy the mosque and instead preserve it as a Church. Today, there is a cathedral inside the famous mosque.

I hope this answers your question.

Next you guys will claim that Muslims build the Dome of the Rock after destroying and razing the Temple of Solomon (rebuilt by Herod the Great).

Some other sites subject to right-wing Hindu revisionist thinking - Badshahi Mosque, Lahore, BaRa and Chota ImambaRas, Lucknow, Jama Masjid, Delhi and don't forget Faisal Mosque in Islamabad.

If Muslims destroyed ancient temples just to build mosques in their place, why would they donate Amritsar for Sikhs to build the Golden Temple?

Re: # 21
"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places?"

If I remember correctly, the entire justification of Mohammad in destroying Kabba was based upon the notion of reclaiming the temple of Abrahim!!
Mohammad justified the attack by charging the original inhabitants with being the "occupier" of Abraham's temple!!

The same logic is used by idolators to pull down the Babri masjid!!!

The Babri Masjid was not really a mosque. There were no Islamic prayers offered in it. Also, Egypt and Pakistan have destroyed plenty of mosques to build canals / dams etc. There is nothing particularly sacred to the Muslims about Babri Masjid. The Hindi position is this..there are 2000 documented instances of Mandirs being demolished to build Mosques. Hindus only want three to be returned back; Ayodhya, Varanasi, Mathura. The rest are "kaha sunna maaf".

Qami saab is writing about one Muslim being killed by UP Police. There were many Hindus killed by the UP Police during Maulana Mulayam's sarkar as well.

"#5 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on December 6, 2007 1:17:59 pm Cobray,
Your logic and certainty are both dismal. What proof is there that the Babri Masjid was built by Muslims after they razed the Ram Temple in Ayodhya?

Using your logic, we may need to demolish most of the churches in Rome. These were built on the ruins of Roman temples, even some material from the Coliseum."

Sure, but the defenders of Roman faith didn't servive beyond Constantine. However, Hindus did survive, thrive and are a major force in India.

Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places?

"#10 Posted by ISlamIslam"

I don't know what are you on but for your information India is officially secular country. Whether that gets practiced is a different issue. Ideally, that's how every state should be. Equal protection to all it's citizens. And freedom to practice their religion (within the bounds of the law of the land). The fact that various governments at the state level and at the center, at worst- sided with Hindus and at best remained silent spectators is a shame.

Agree with destruction though.

"Similarly Islamic Shariah (law) instructs that when a certain place is made a Masjid it can never change its status. The original land can never be replaced or sold out."

Islamic law does not apply to hindu idolators and cannot give an iota of right to any momeen to occupy and destroy a hindu temple and convert it into a masjid. They should be payed back for defiling our temples!!

"One of his close friends, Yunus Ali, was shot-dead by the UP police on December 7, 1992 before his naked eyes. "

Sure, the innocence of that person would be presumed because he is a muslim!!

"They later campaigned for communal polarization of Hindus and Muslims..."

Nonnsense, muslims were already polarized, ghettoized, bhai -bhai-ized, ummahized. It was hindus who were fragmented. Babri masjid consolidated it. Infact, every terror strike consolidates them further. Yes, kill us!! We would consolidate further. In fact, this consolidation is happening the world over. Christians are uniting like anything after every terror strike.
Come on Jehadis, arise and hit us, that would make our resolve firmer.

"It was a moment when all truths about religious coexistence suddenly proved false."

Nonsense, and this is a BS Taquiyya. Truths about RELIGIOUS CO-EXISTENCE ARE NOT TAUGHT IN MUSLIM SEMINARIES!

They are anyway FALSE by default in Islamic world view. The entire plank of Islam falls if its 'superiority' is denied.!

M B Qasmi
Sorry for your sense of loss. I understand and fully sympathise with your sense of uncertainty too. Though a Hindu, I felt it too, firstly because the act of demolition of a religious place by a mob was a terrible thing to watch and secondly the loss of confidence that the Indian state would be impartial. As an individual I couldn't have prevented such a thing from happening but I feel responsible despite that. The Indian state is nothing but individuals like myself. As an individual I have taken the responsibility of understanding the history and politics that precipitated the event(history stretching back to a few decades before independence, not really back to Babur as people think), and hopefully you will someday too. My sad conclusion is that it is unavoidable that we acknowledge that history to undo its effects on the future, alas.

Okay....

Pakistani Muslims werent any better after the Babri Masjid Episode.

There tore down hindu temples all over Pakistan. I personally saw mobs demolish two hindu temples in lahore's inner walled city.

What are you griping about?

Indian has tolerated enough nuicesence created by moslems for 600 years. Govt. of India should have done that ( Destruction of two three others in Mathura, Kashi etc...). The destruction of the structure by BJP/RSS people was illegal. These people should be punished ( whether the mosque was built on Ram Mandir or not. It is a legal matter.) The site should be handed over to ASI. Let them decide what to do. VHP/RSS has no business on deciding fate of such old structure.
Somebody was comparing with islamic countries. We are a civilised society. We should not compare with them.

The destruction of Babri Masjid was a crime and all indians will continue to pay for it until it is resolved whether by consensus (rebuild mosque, access to hindu worshippers) or thru law. If a state cannot protect historical monuments, however despised, then it is a weak state and one with little commitment to protection of its citizens symbols.

There is a separate issue that it is a disgusting display of violence that hindu temples have had muslim places of worship forcibly attached to them throughout north india. Closet islamists like Mr. Qasim will pretend that these mosques "spontaneously" arose out of the ether or some such nonsense. That is like saying that africans "spontaneously" came to america as slaves or european jews spontaneously went to gas chambers.

I would hope that the owners of these mosques will come to understand the violence and spitefulness that these structures represent to many hindus. They and the community should think of a creative way to preserve these historical structures and at the same time repudiate the legacy of triumphalist and imperialist islam that they stand for.

God does not need temples, mosques, churches. People do.

Which begs the question - why do people need temples, mosques, churches? which question is easily answered: because it promotes a sense of community for the population at large, and gives the priest an "office".

So - why not build community centers instead, and put priests where the belong - in the market for a real job? The true believer then practices relgion the way it should be - as a matter of personal belief and conscience, and out of reach of those who seek to make money from religion, or to create divisions in society, or to use religion as a means to gain power.

Babri Masjid at Ayodhya - One down and 100,000 more to go.

There should be a ban in India on the construction of any new mosques or churches.

Give the Mozzies a taste of their own medicine. Do they allow you to build a temple anywhere in Saudi Arabia?

All imported religions should be put on notice that they are allowed to survive in India at the sufferance of Hindus.

A single peep from them about religious tolerance or civil rights should be met with the religious tolerance Hindus had lived under for 1000 years: a jizya on non-Hindus, no jobs in private/public sector for non-Hindus, and beating them into Islam -- oops, submission.

Any Christian agitating for the right of conversion and quotas in education and jobs ought to be nailed to the cross.

[ Similarly Islamic Shariah (law) instructs that when a certain place is made a Masjid it can never change its status. The original land can never be replaced or sold out.]

This is absolutely FALSE. I know of at least a dozen mosques which have been demolished and converted into other secular buildings in Saudi Arabia, the biggest propagationists of Sharia.

There is nothing wrong in demolishing the mosque in Ayodhya or Banaras and Mathura. These mosques were built by force by the ruling Muslims, now that the Muslims are not in power and Hindoos are, and since they can,therefore,they should build temples on thoase sites.I see nothing wrong in this. as for the Muslims are concerned,they have never been stopped from building a new one. As it is there are millions of mosques all over the wporld without any worshipper, razing a few should not be of much consequence.

the pendulum will always swing hard one way when you push it too much the other way. e.g. the pendulum of left-wing secular politics brought bush in the white house in a backlash. so its not always prudent to roughshod trample over the sentiment of the "majority"..it may sound like blackmail, but its just a matter of fact.

so pick your poison..

Re: # 5

Salim Sahib:

I so agree with you. Hagia Sofia is a geat monument. All fanatics must visit. Cobra is wrong, there is one more in Mathura, built on Krishna's birthplace, and counting.

Although, you might not agree, but it would be good to convert all religious places into schools.

{"At the same time I support demolition of Babri Masjid. This masjid was built"}

{"In fact, there is another masjid built on the distruction of Kashi Vishwanath temple. I'm in favor of destroying that masjid as well. "}

Cobray,
Your logic and certainty are both dismal. What proof is there that the Babri Masjid was built by Muslims after they razed the Ram Temple in Ayodhya?

Using your logic, we may need to demolish most of the churches in Rome. These were built on the ruins of Roman temples, even some material from the Coliseum.

What about the Great Mosque of Cordova that is now a Cathedral - in fact there is a church inside the great mosque? Should the church be demolished?

The only people who got it right were the Ataturk guys. They made Hagia Sophia into a museum.

I suggest that all disputed monuments be preserved the way they are and be converted into museums with detailed history discussing man's bias and prejudice - even against the architecture of their enemas.

thank you mohammed bin qasim for reminding us. i scanned indian online newspapers and there was not a single mention of this momentous event. i guess the the mainly hindu media did not consider it important enought. there was news about babasab ambedkars birthday..i guess there was some stuff that happened in the parliament

In fact, there is another masjid built on the distruction of Kashi Vishwanath temple. I'm in favor of destroying that masjid as well.

I concede that Government should not take sides in communal issues and provide equal protection to all it's citizen. It's a shame on us for not protecting minorities during Gujrat carnage and Mumbai riots and for electing Modi again to the power.
At the same time I support demolition of Babri Masjid. This masjid was built on razed temple. Muslims had no business doing that.

With the phrase 'founded on piety' above the scholars of Qur'anic exegesis and Islamic jurisprudence enjoin that a Masjid can not be built on illegitimately owned land.


legitimate as defined by....?



Mumbai bomb blasts in 1992-93


bomb blasts by muslims are a symbol of chaddi-fascism?

the whole frikking place should be razed and a mall should be built over it..then hindus and muslims alike can be idiots and pay 80 rs for a cup of coffee...better than being idiots and praying to imaginary gods/prophets..