6th December 1992

Salim, and do your Turk friends accept Armenian genocide?

"#32 Posted by dost_mittar on December 8, 2007 2:53:28 am
You are so right, Mr. Qasmi. 6th December is one of the saddest days in independent India's history. Not only because a mosque was razed, but also because it was razed in full glare of official machinery, including police, looking on. "

No it wasn't. The saddest day was when the so called protectors of the people implicitly or explicitly participated in killing innocent people, raping women and butchering pregnant women. That happened a decade later.

#49, Anil, my stand on Ram Setu is that it should be demolished if it's coming in way on economic development.

"Many other Turks, watched this scene with horror, and kept exclaiming "Jami, Jami" - "Mosque, Mosque" with shock and disgust."

What did these guys say when bamian was pulled down? Did they express similar disgust? And do you know how the history is portrayed in Turkey? Is the time of Turkic adventurism revealed for what it was- a mongol like invasion- or is that depicted as a proud moment for the Turkic tribes?

Re: # 49

Cobra:

I also wanted to mention that these "Indians" are ready to take on modernization in the name of another fabled Ram Sethu.

Where do you stand on it as well?

If Ram could build this Ram Sethu then, why modern India cannot build another Sethu to connect its West Coast and East Coast?

Re: # 47

Cobra:

My entire point to Dost-Mitter and now to you as well, is that these are extremely complex issues and simplistic logic must never be applied.

Dost says historical wrongs cannot be righted... ; and you say that it applies equally.

Such thinking results wrong action and reactions. Salim Sahib indeed made very vaaluable points. To me that part of the world has overdose of religions. Education will help, schools will help more than the fight over bricks and mortars of old unworshipped mosque, or fabled birthplace.

Would you rather have young India create a modern India, or spill blood over it?

Hagia Sofia, that Salim mentioned, I had an opportunity to see. If you want to even think about tolerant Islam you must visit it. If you want to think of fanatics of religions send them there. A Islamic country could have the courage to convert a place into museum, yet another fails in Al-Aqsa, or fails in Ramjanambhoomi / Babri Masjid.

My vote is strong for a modern India. Where the real power and wealth oozes out from its people for the knowledge economy, just as Saudi oil oozed out for the automobile economy.

Only Indians, bogged down to fight and spill blood over old bricks and mortar, if ever they become majority, can blow it. This won't be the first time that India blew it and made it easier for outsiders to walk in.

Think differently. I want to borrow it from Apple. India and Indians have done it many times in the past.

So Cobra, think differently.

#32 Posted by dost_mittar on December 8, 2007 2:53:28 am


historical wrongs can not be righted


that applies equally to the chaddis going nuts for a mythological figure and muslims rioting after the babri masjid was destroyed...

#40,

"Another truth is the struggle for righting the wrong continues."

So you agree Hindu's can't be exception to that! We can't be devoid of same feelings as other communities. At least grant us that much.

Jinna Bhai had nothing to do with Babri Masjid. If anything congressi minority appeasement policy can be directly tied to it.

Anil, are you saying that if the Babri Masjid was not demolished every thing was hokey-dory between Hindus and Muslims?

Qasmi Sahab donot oversimplify a complictaed issue because then you are problem maker not desirous of the dvelopment of detente.
Problem arose in the activities of the perpetrators of which the chief was Jinnah! Truly a British agent.

Jang,
Furtheremore, thanks to our fratricidal suicide boomers, the infidel have stopped asking "Why do they hate us so much?" Instead they are all saying "Look, they hate themselves much more than they hate us." This gives Islam a much more egalitarian outlook and no wonder Allah's faith is spreading almost as fast as Mormonism and Mirzaism.

#39 Jang {"perfect fodder for BJP to gain so many seats..wagons were circled overnight. ram janambhoomi was a brilliant political excercise of uniting "hindus" politically and destruction of babri mosque was a deliberate act symbolising that the BJP would be an action-taking party and not just rabble-rousing"}

Jang,
You are right about the issue being hijacked by BJP to temporarily united Hindus and get power for themselves. But Yaar, why do Hindus unite and behave badly exclusively at the expense of non-Hindus like Sikhs and Muslims. The BJP recycled the same old issue in 2002 and won another election.

These BJP guys need to take notes from Muslim leaders. Most of the time our leaders unite one set of Muslims against another Muslim sect. This way only Muslims get hurt and there is no universal clamor about blood-thirsty Muslims. Of course, AlKayda violated this rule and killed thousands of non-Muslims (including hundreds of Muslims) and thus earned international condemnation and wrath. Thankfully, some competent Muslim leaders in Eye Rak and Pakiland corrected this problem by killing ten-fold the number of Muslims in intra-Islamic suicidal and fratricidal display of Muslim unity and circling of camels.

Jang #36 {"Salim yar, we indians are generally pretty lovey-dovey with Akbar.. We dont complain about bihari sons-of-soil like Sher-sha suri and even like bahadursha jafar. mugal-e-ajam was an alltime hit..... we only consdier ghori and abdali as luteyras."}

Jang,
You conveniently left out one of the greatest of the Timuri clan, Maharaja Aurangjeb, whose dadi and pardadi were both Hindu Rajputs and who was born in Hindustan. Placing your thumb up or down in reaction to the opinions of gora Angrej historians is very Chachaesque.

#32, DM Sahib,
You are absolutely right about demolition of Babri Masjid being the wrong thing to do. Of course the really right thing to do would have been the Muslim leaders' willingness to join Hindus in discussing the importance of their perception that the masjid stood on sacred ground. Furthermore, they should have discussed the possibility and cost/benefit of moving the structure to another location.

Needless to say, nobody can ever accuse Muslim leaders, especially in India, of using sound judgment or of ever looking out for the true interests of anyone, least of all Muslims.

Re: # 32

Dost-Mitter:

"...The main pont against the destruction of the Babri masjid is that historical wrongs can not be righted, otherwise there would be no end to communal and ethnic strife. ..."

This is too logical to apply to emotional and illogical lives people lead. Osama is also trying to right a historical wrong (albeit recent history). I am certain when buildings (including temples and mosques), universities etc. were being demolished, the demolishers strongly felt that they were righting the wrong.

The truth is those who have power have always gotten away with criminal acts, be it babri masjid, or katl-e-aam from moti masjid. Another truth is the struggle for righting the wrong continues. One more question, just whose right one is fighting for or against. I am sure lawyers in Pakistan feel they are righting a wrong, while Musharraff sees it completely opposite. Like Modi and his followers believe their criminal acts are right.

Some emotions just simply do not die, because people have long memories.

cobra, indian secularist do raise this question, you see, its na reahn bas, na baje bansuri. if ram does not really exist, how the f can we have ram janam bhoomi? by this argument those demanding ram janambhoomi are neatly reduced to ignorant fools.

perfect fodder for BJP to gain so many seats..wagons were circled overnight. ram janambhoomi was a brilliant political excercise of uniting "hindus" politically and destruction of babri mosque was a deliberate act symbolising that the BJP would be an action-taking party and not just rabble-rousing.

they managed to convince the electorate on this single issue, and made history. now offcourse the issue is used-up.