6th December 1992

"real question is 'Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple built on the birth-place of Ram".


No the real question is Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple, period.

Re: # 17
"Muslims were already polarised"...
It is not true. First, the islamic terrorism in Kashmir on Kashimiris ( Pundits). The ugly side of Islam was exposed to the newer generation on that time ( After post partion India). One of my college students, was studying in REC Srinagar (late 1980s). The chilling experience he described to us (he had lost 2 years for the terrorism in Kashmir) was enough to get the taste of islamic barbarism. Then, flood of Bangladeshi non-moslems immigrants in Calcutta and neighbouring districts exposed the islamic barbarism in Eastern front. So, far we had the idea that moslems are petty criminals as they are poor and illiterate. The religious angle was fully exposed that time. Then came Ram temple movement. North Indian states has seen upper caste consolidation with OBCs. Arab money started pouring in Indian mosques and moslems has started being aware that, there vote share is enough in the fractured mandate to change the fate of political parties. And then this entire trouble ( RSS/Upper caste/Moslems).In my village or early years of college, I have not seen any such matter called somebody is moslem. They were very few and we were quite good friends.

yar DM salim is not asking tough question, the real question is asked by indians themselves, who ask for proof that Ram was born. So Salims question is nothing..real question is 'Prove that the Babri masjid was built on the temple built on the birth-place of Ram".

Salim yar, we indians are generally pretty lovey-dovey with Akbar, he is considered one the major political uniters of india almost unanimously. We dont complain about bihari sons-of-soil like Sher-sha suri and even like bahadursha jafar. mugal-e-ajam was an alltime hit..so your accusation that we consider all the members of the house of timur as ferner (inspite of taking dilli from biharis) looteyras is wrong. we only consdier ghori and abdali as luteyras.

Re: # 18
During Naxalite movement, almost a generation of the youth of Bengal was killed by police there. They were university and college toppers, not madrassa bread terrorists. When police think somebody is against them, they will kill. Police does not see moslem or non-moslem.

God is not a Homeless Man. God does not need Roti, Kapra aur Makaan. duh-uh. case closed.

Dost sahib, if you expect us to forgive and forget then that ain’t happening. Muslims would do the same if this happens to Mecca. Christians would also behave similarly if it happens to Rome. Jews, surprisingly didn't do it for their holey shrine may be because they survive n Christian backing and they don't want to antagonize their Muslims further. It really doesn't matter how would others behave. These are our places of worship and we have right to reclaim them back.
I'm not asking for treating Muslims as second class citizens for the Historic wrongs of their assumed forefather (for majority of Indian Muslims are decedents of native population and had nothing to do with invaders). The demand is to reclaim what is rightfully ours. Bamian Buddha statue were not built on earlier razed places of warship. So the comparison is idiotic. I'm not in favor of destruction of any monument per say. I would have favored the relocating the masjid somewhere.

You are so right, Mr. Qasmi. 6th December is one of the saddest days in independent India's history. Not only because a mosque was razed, but also because it was razed in full glare of official machinery, including police, looking on. The hooligans had issued ample warning, so the state could not say that it was unprepared. The state watched while its laws were flouted and a proud minority felt that it could not count on the protection of the state to safeguard its rights. There had been sporadic rights in India even earlier but never before did the state from the prime minister down looked the other way as a precious symbol of the minority was demolished.

Those who say that it was not an active mosque are missing the point. The mosque had become a symbol. One wonders if the communal polarization in India would have taken place if the Babri masjid had not been demolished. Yes, the Muslims could have and perhaps should have accepted Vajpayee's offer (I am not sure if the RSS did it too) to move the mosque brick by brick; doing so would have earned the gratitude of the Hindu community; but they had the right to refuse the offer and let the matter be decided by the courts which had been debating the issue for several decades.

Salim:
"Your logic and certainty are both dismal. What proof is there that the Babri Masjid was built by Muslims after they razed the Ram Temple in Ayodhya?"

You are raising a false issue. It does not matter whether there was a Ram Temple at that site or not, just as it does not matter whether the Quran is the word of God or not. The fact is that many Hindus beleive that the mosque was built on the site of a temple (and I think that there are some Muslim chronicler's writing to support that). In any case, there is documentary evidence of many mosques having been built over razed temples; would it be justified to raze them and rebuild temples there? The main pont against the destruction of the Babri masjid is that historical wrongs can not be righted, otherwise there would be no end to communal and ethnic strife.

Stuka #30 {"Till date there has been no Muslim leader in India who has organized his community for legitimate socio-economic gain."}

Stuka,
Sadly, you may be right about that. :( Sir Syed Ahmad Khan may have been the last one.

"Stuka,
If Habib Jilani indeed did that, he was much more than a fool - a reckless, stupid, and insensitive idiot. "

Not really. He was only doing what hew knew best - politics of confrontation. Till date there has been no Muslim leader in India who has organized his community for legitimate socio-economic gain. Even the Choodas do better than the Miyas on that score.

Stuka #28 {"Sirji, that was exactly the offer made by the RSS. ... Habeeb Jilani of the BMAC turned it down. ...The demolishing of the Babri Masjid was also a message to the Muslim hardliners that if push comes to shove, you will lose. If Muslims are to take one step towards Hindu concerns, Hindus will take two. But not ten. It is no longer the time of Aurangzeb. "}

Stuka,
If Habib Jilani indeed did that, he was much more than a fool - a reckless, stupid, and insensitive idiot.
You may take it as a matter of winning or losing, I see it as a matter of backwardness, violent bigotry, and blatantly uncivilized behavior. Whether it's the Tally Ban at Bamiyan, Islamic jihadists in NWFP, or RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/BD/SS Hindutva zealots in Ayodhya, Gujarat, or Mumbai, such actions are detestable.

BTW, Aurangzeb built many Hindu temples. Also, Akbar gave Amritsar as a gift to Sikhs. So don't use Mughals as examples of bigotry or destruction - there have been worse, e.g. BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SS. Let's hope we can find logical solutions to such simple problems, instead of allowing bigots to loot, burn, destroy, rape, mutilate, and kill.

" If I were in your place, I would have gathered money and moved the structure, brick by brick, to another location (even sent it to Pakistan!), and then build a great monument to the Ram in its place. You would have your temple, an ancient mosque would have been presesrved, and right-wing Hindutvas would not have appeared as hyenas competing for the biggest piece of a carcass. Just my advice. Thanks.
"

Sirji, that was exactly the offer made by the RSS. Not to send it to Pakistan, but to have the mosque right next to the tempple perimeter. Habeeb Jilani of the BMAC turned it down. The Muslims of Ayodhya were actually far more sensitive to Hindu concerns compared to the Hraami Muslim leaders who formed the BMAC. The BMAC was formed only by ex Congressi politicians of UP / Bihar who were showing a total hardline. The demolishing of the Babri Masjid was also a message to the Muslim hardliners that if push comes to shove, you will lose. If Muslims are to take one step towards Hindu concerns, Hindus will take two. But not ten. It is no longer the time of Aurangzeb.

"Some other sites subject to right-wing Hindu revisionist thinking - Badshahi Mosque, Lahore, BaRa and Chota ImambaRas, Lucknow, Jama Masjid, Delhi and don't forget Faisal Mosque in Islamabad. "

As far as I know the demand is for three, Kashi, Mathura and ayodhya.

Cobra #21 {"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places?

Cobray,
I have already asnwered your question earlier. Now, please allow me to intrduce some sensible advice to the right-wing Hindutva RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/SS/BD goons who destroyed the historical Babri Masjid in '92. Actually, I saw the images when I was on a vist to Turkey during the winter of '92 and I saw a crazy mob of what appeared to be drug-crazed ugly barbarians vengefully demolishing a poor ancient structure.
Many other Turks, watched this scene with horror, and kept exclaiming "Jami, Jami" - "Mosque, Mosque" with shock and disgust.

Now, if, as you claim, the exact site of the Babri Masjid was the location of Ram's temple, there were many civilized ways to satisfy everyone. I believe you when you say that it was a holy Hindu site. If I were in your place, I would have gathered money and moved the structure, brick by brick, to another location (even sent it to Pakistan!), and then build a great monument to the Ram in its place. You would have your temple, an ancient mosque would have been presesrved, and right-wing Hindutvas would not have appeared as hyenas competing for the biggest piece of a carcass. Just my advice. Thanks.

#14 Shore Sahib {"Pakistani Muslims werent any better after the Babri Masjid Episode.

There tore down hindu temples all over Pakistan. I personally saw mobs demolish two hindu temples in lahore's inner walled city."}

Shore Sahib,
And that is just as stupid and unpardonable as the Babri Masjid demolition. Whether in anger or out of sheer hatred, destruction of historical buildings is a total betrayal of the lack of civilization in the destructive barbarains. Please add the Tally Ban destroying the Bamiyan Budhha to this list of barbarians.

#21 Cobra {"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places? "}

While both you and Jang are upset to the point of RSS pitch, neither of you have documented how the Musliims destroyed and razed the existing Hindu temple to Ram and then constructed the Babri Masjid.

As for destroying Mecca Kabah, what do you think the Great Mosque of Cordoba was? It was constructed by Omayyad Caliph Abbur Rahman as an alternative to performing Haj in Mecca which was under Abbasid control. As you probably should know, the Christians conquered Cordoba in 1236 and were going to destroy the Great Mosque. The Cordobans, who loved their mosque so much, requested the Christians to not destroy the mosque and instead preserve it as a Church. Today, there is a cathedral inside the famous mosque.

I hope this answers your question.

Next you guys will claim that Muslims build the Dome of the Rock after destroying and razing the Temple of Solomon (rebuilt by Herod the Great).

Some other sites subject to right-wing Hindu revisionist thinking - Badshahi Mosque, Lahore, BaRa and Chota ImambaRas, Lucknow, Jama Masjid, Delhi and don't forget Faisal Mosque in Islamabad.

If Muslims destroyed ancient temples just to build mosques in their place, why would they donate Amritsar for Sikhs to build the Golden Temple?

Re: # 21
"Tell me something if non-Muslims destroyed Mecca Kabah and Medina. Would you be just as charitable and call history a history or would you try to reclaim the holy places?"

If I remember correctly, the entire justification of Mohammad in destroying Kabba was based upon the notion of reclaiming the temple of Abrahim!!
Mohammad justified the attack by charging the original inhabitants with being the "occupier" of Abraham's temple!!

The same logic is used by idolators to pull down the Babri masjid!!!