6th December 1992

Re: # 47

Cobra:

My entire point to Dost-Mitter and now to you as well, is that these are extremely complex issues and simplistic logic must never be applied.

Dost says historical wrongs cannot be righted... ; and you say that it applies equally.

Such thinking results wrong action and reactions. Salim Sahib indeed made very vaaluable points. To me that part of the world has overdose of religions. Education will help, schools will help more than the fight over bricks and mortars of old unworshipped mosque, or fabled birthplace.

Would you rather have young India create a modern India, or spill blood over it?

Hagia Sofia, that Salim mentioned, I had an opportunity to see. If you want to even think about tolerant Islam you must visit it. If you want to think of fanatics of religions send them there. A Islamic country could have the courage to convert a place into museum, yet another fails in Al-Aqsa, or fails in Ramjanambhoomi / Babri Masjid.

My vote is strong for a modern India. Where the real power and wealth oozes out from its people for the knowledge economy, just as Saudi oil oozed out for the automobile economy.

Only Indians, bogged down to fight and spill blood over old bricks and mortar, if ever they become majority, can blow it. This won't be the first time that India blew it and made it easier for outsiders to walk in.

Think differently. I want to borrow it from Apple. India and Indians have done it many times in the past.

So Cobra, think differently.

Re: # 49

Cobra:

I also wanted to mention that these "Indians" are ready to take on modernization in the name of another fabled Ram Sethu.

Where do you stand on it as well?

If Ram could build this Ram Sethu then, why modern India cannot build another Sethu to connect its West Coast and East Coast?

"Many other Turks, watched this scene with horror, and kept exclaiming "Jami, Jami" - "Mosque, Mosque" with shock and disgust."

What did these guys say when bamian was pulled down? Did they express similar disgust? And do you know how the history is portrayed in Turkey? Is the time of Turkic adventurism revealed for what it was- a mongol like invasion- or is that depicted as a proud moment for the Turkic tribes?

#49, Anil, my stand on Ram Setu is that it should be demolished if it's coming in way on economic development.

"#32 Posted by dost_mittar on December 8, 2007 2:53:28 am
You are so right, Mr. Qasmi. 6th December is one of the saddest days in independent India's history. Not only because a mosque was razed, but also because it was razed in full glare of official machinery, including police, looking on. "

No it wasn't. The saddest day was when the so called protectors of the people implicitly or explicitly participated in killing innocent people, raping women and butchering pregnant women. That happened a decade later.

Salim, and do your Turk friends accept Armenian genocide?

cobra:

"Dost sahib, if you expect us to forgive and forget then that ain’t happening."

Forgive, but not forget! Do not forget that it was a Hindu community divided by caste where 95% of the population had no responsibility for defending the country and that 5% too had been rendered practically useless after Buddha as kshatriyas were among the disciples of their fellow Kshatriya, Buddha. India must remain strong; we learnt that lesson once again after Nehru followed Buddha's policies and Chinese taught a neat little lesson.

Jang, Indian leftists cannot completely claim blameless in the Babri affaair. It was, indeed, V.P. Gupta who almost forced Advani to activate his rath yatra. You see, both Advani and the communist Surjit were quite cooperative in supporting VP Singh's govt. in 1990 but his deputy, Devi Dayal, raised the jaat bogey to bolster his support base, by seeking additional quotas for his jaats. V.P. Singh tried to undercut him by taking up the Mandal issue, which created serious problems for the BJP, whose upper-caste base was badly affected by the Mandal recommendations but which it could not oppose because it was trying to expand its appeal to the lower castes. So, Advani took up his rath yatra to create a hindu vote bank. As they saying went at that time, Advani brought out the kamandal (Hindu sadhus) to fight Mandal.

anil:

It is true that mobs are moved by emotive slogans, but I was not thinking of the mobs but of responsible political leadership, especially the prime minister and chief minister who are not expected to be governed by emotions, after they have won the election.

Re: # 56

Dost Sahib:

Political leaders have elections to win, constituencies to build their power base. In democracy, how can they be more different than the people. It is after all by the people, for the people....

Modi gets elected certainly means his ideology has a currency that people accept. Emotions are part and parcel of all of us. No one is left out.

cobra #54 {"Salim, and do your Turk friends accept Armenian genocide? "}

Cobra,
Most of them are not aware of Kim Kardashian's abuse at the hands (actually other limbs) of Ray J. :) I agree that Armenians deserve much better treatment.

Cobra #51 {"What did these guys say when bamian was pulled down? .. Is the time of Turkic adventurism revealed for what it was- a mongol like invasion- or is that depicted as a proud moment for the Turkic tribes?"}

Cobra,
Although I wasn't there to witness their reaction to the Bamian Buddha desecration, I am sure that their disgust would have been even more in emphasis. After all, those who destroyed the Bamian Buddha were "Islamic" extremists performing devilish things in the name of our religion.
The "adventure" of the Turks that you describe is attibuted to the Crusades. After having defeated the last of the Crusaders in the 13th century, Turks immediately launched invasions of countries through which the Crusaders came to eastern Anatolia. In fact, Saladin was planning a naval invasion of France and England after the end of the Third Crusade. He died before the plans could be formulated.

Anil #49 {"Hagia Sofia, that Salim mentioned, I had an opportunity to see. If you want to even think about tolerant Islam you must visit it. If you want to think of fanatics of religions send them there. A Islamic country could have the courage to convert a place into museum, yet another fails in Al-Aqsa, or fails in Ramjanambhoomi / Babri Masjid."}

Anil Bhai,
Thank you very much for highlighting the example of Hagia Sofia that was set by Mustafa Kemal Pasha Ataturk. Yes, at the fall of Constantinople in 1453, Sultan Ghazi Mehmet II did convert the famous church into a mosque - recalling that in 1236, the Christians of Spain, after launching the Reconquista, had converted the largest enclosed mosque in the world at that time, the Great Mosque of Cordoba, into a cathedral. After establishing the Turkish Republic, Ataturk unilaterally designated Hagia Sofia as a museum and the Turks restored the frescos and artwork that was whitewashed by the Ottomans.

In fact, I think that the Hagia Sofia should be restored to a church, a purpose for which it was built by Justinian. Also, the Great Mosque of Cordoba should be restored to a mosque, a purpose for which it was started by Omayyad Caliph Abdur Rahman.

We should identify all such places and reach logical, fair, and humane accommodations without even thinking of violence or destruction. But then, I am only a Rajput Muslim ...

Fifteen years have passed since the incident, and India has moved on. Babri Masjid might have at that point of time become a sort of symbol because of the hype it got from the press, but Muslim Indians have over the years let it slide into the background although there might be a little rancour. That is why the press in India has taken little notice of the anniversary. Likewise the assault on the Golden Temple has become history, there are hardly any Sikhs who want to rake up the issue, what's done is done. An average Muslim in India enjoys total freedom of religion, a good Muslim can go to the local mosque and offers prayers, study in the madrassa, become a maulana and a bad Muslim can enjoy all the harram things including wine and women.
No point in flogging a dead horse, see, had Chowk been in existence when the event occurred, ther would have been a flood of articles and incessant posts from angry Muslims from the Subcontinent. The response to this article is almost apolegetic.
The writer of the article need not worry, secularism in India has taken deep roots, and barring such blemishes, it is flowering as a federal, multicultural secular democracy, a beacon for many developing countries

muqaddam #61 {"...a good Muslim can go to the local mosque and offers prayers, study in the madrassa, become a maulana and a bad Muslim can enjoy all the harram things including wine and women.
... secularism in India has taken deep roots, and barring such blemishes, it is flowering as a federal, multicultural secular democracy, a beacon for many developing countries "}

Muqaddam,
I tend to agree with your points. As we say in Turkey "we don't drink in the mosques and don't pray in the bars." :)

As for India, unfortunately, when the blemishes do spurt out they do so with such ferocity and such horrific numbers that the word "secular" is easily wiped out as the police and officials either enjoy the spectacle if they are somewhat professional or actually join in the fray which is more often the case.

salim bhaijan, india is unique with 15+ % monirity population with a troubled past post 1857. any country with that kinda dynamics would not have it easy, we are proud if what we have inspite of the blemishes inspite of the stupid "secularist" causing us all kinda trouble.

now, hows the plan for moving gian vapi masjid pathar-by-pathar to jinahpur coming along? i want a status report on my desk on UP first thing in the morning.

Jang #63 {"now, hows the plan for moving gian vapi masjid pathar-by-pathar to jinahpur coming along? i want a status report on my desk on UP first thing in the morning."}

Jang,
Very happy that you can overlook blemishes like Jabalpur, Delhi, and Gujarat. I like it when people can be so forgiving.

As for your desire to move some buildings, go ahead and get the RSS/BJP/VHP/JS/BD/SS goons to use their claws to bring them down. If your desk is on UP, then how the hell do you expect me to move those buildings? Also, knowing your credit history, I want you to send a retainer before I put anything on your desk on UP, MP, AP, CP, HP, or PP.