The Good Monster: Musharraf's Cultural Legacy

Re: # 68 And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.

you mean taking orders from the west, and accepting them as your masters. You been smoking too much bad weed these days Majumdar, that Afghani you trade with is doing the dirty on you, mate.

You need to change your dealer......

Dash,

Inshallah, in a generation or so there would be more Desi English speakers than English speakers anywhere else. And more English speakers than speakers of any other language in the Desh.

And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.

Regards

Re: # 11

Ijaz, an interesting view. I have been watching PTV for sometime now, and ofcourse ARY, and GEO as well. What you say is true. However, the "liberal" component of the talks/discussions is limited. In the early days of the regime and early days of these channels the talks and discussions had the same song sheet, music sheet, and hymn sheet as the regime. Slowly they changed but essentially followed/toed the line. Even today, despite the hangamma over the banning they still follow the contours of the regime. What they lack is an element of intellectual depth. (I was a great of Moeed Pirzada's show on PTV - unfortunately the guests were an insult to Pirzada's nuanced questions and views).

This is in stark contrast to the Bangladeshi Channels. Where there a great deal of depth, LIBERALITY and PLURALITY of views. You will not find the same ruccous as on GEO/ARY etc but a great deal more civilised (perhaps???).

If at all there is a need for a revolution (cultural or otherwise), then it is to bridge this gap that one is needed. This is my opinion. I am wondering if this assessment is correct. (I am ofcourse discounting the the great Vernacular Language called English


(Please note: I hate and dislike the terms Vernacular, and Ethnic used by Desis to Describe WHAT IS THEIRS - mainstream for them. In fact For us Desis - Vernacular is English, and Ethnic is Western. This is a PoV, but hey, the world is not flat and the universe is not a sphere)

Re: # 13
Love2love,
I come from a ghetto where I never learnt to read or write.You could see my profile to be doubly sure.

I began my comment by CULTURAL LEGACY.

My inference to his essay is implied in CULTURAL REVOLUTION. It is my inference because I come from the ghetto.
ok

#58 Posted by viqarm on December 12, 2007 11:59:22 pm


I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.


There's also the minor problem that you can't do anything about it..

wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit..

Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory

I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement.

60 years of Kashmir Banega Pakistan, and 60 years of Jihad, has not changed anything - not even a few cms on the LOC. It has almost bankrupted Pakistan 2 or 3 times (and if it were not for the Yankee Largesse (to Zia and Mush)) it would have been no better than Somalia by know. That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir.

Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan - in that it is now able to afford better
(a) health care
(b) education
(c) opportunities
to its citizens. The latest Cyclone disaster is a case in point. The recovery is quicker than before and it will keep getting better.

And you are worried about what is happening in some other country.

Has Pakistan not learnt that "it has not taken the thekka " of the muslim world world. The muslim world does not give a flying fcuk for what happens to Pakistan and Pakistanis. Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills.

#57 by viqarm

Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?

Viqar bhai, it was Nehru's opinion and nothing more. Do you seriously think his opinion constituted an existential threat to Pakistan? But today the threat is real. America is breathing down its neck. Iran and Afghanistan are hostile to it and India is at best waiting and watching before it can take the plunge.

Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated.

Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion.

Re:viqarm#58
Pakistan can barely manage to govern what it has today, let alone ask for more. NWFP and Baluchistan are war zones. Suicide bombers are killing dozens every other day. Every ethnic group hates the other. Religious sectrianism has reached absurd levels. After 60 years, you still dont have a proper system of administration with orderly transition of power - whether it be democratic or not. Supreme court judges are dismissed, elections are a farce, media gets clamped down, army is out of control, decisions require US blessings. Kya Mazaak bana rakha hai? Basically your country is just one giant farce and a laughing stock now. Its a failed state.

You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them? Even if it happens by some miracle, after two days of 'allah o akbar' the Kashmiris will realize their disasterous situation. The grass may look greener on the other side based on religious emotions but the conditions of the NWFP, Baluchistan and Sindh are a good indicator of what would happen to Kashmir.

Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it. You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever.

Its a question of belling the cat.

But before belling it, we need to find out

(a) the type of cat
(b) the size of the cat
(c) the nature of the cat
(d) the current status of the cat
(e) a volunteer who is willing to bell the cat (even before studying the above)
(f) a volunteer to follow (e) after the said volunteer has got mauled. (following (a)-(e)

So far musharuff has been the (e). BiBi-10% and Nawaz are now trying to edge themselves into (f)......and Tahmed32 and others are the chorus line here!

Viqarm sahib,

(do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?)

No and I wasn't referring to any either. I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details. Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?

(even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't -)

You guys have meddled in kashmir and A'stan and see where that has got you. But if you still want to meddle feel free to do so!!!

(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)

I will be more than happy with that.

Regards

Viqarm sahib,

(It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come)

You underestimate the resilience of Pakistan. Pakistan will not become another A'stan notwithstanding the fondest wishes of its Injun detractors and its own Islamist citizens!!!

(Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... )

I am afraid the only Pakis who are desirous of "freedom" are the Pushtoons and maybe baloch. Sindhi, Punjus and Mojos are nowhere near as desirous as you imagine them to be.

Regards

Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.

I am sorry, but I honestly hope to God that Pak will never pack its bags and go home, simply because J&K is not Pak's (and India's) ancestral property.

Regarding your assertion about the right of self-determination in Pak itself, certainly it is the right of all citizens to be treated with justice. Internal differences in Pak are because of injustice but, so far, no part of the present Pak has asserted the right to self-detrmination and secession from the country. Now if it does come to that, and they are morally justified, then certainly it should be supported. In spite of repeated setbacks, I remain optimistic that sooner or later moral sense will prevail and the grievances of the various regions will be redressed.

BTW, do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?

I am sorry to say that even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't - there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries. Nothing more.

Re: # 52

Harish bhai,
"Yaar you are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan in those days didn't face an existential threat. India wasn't about to gobble it up - neither were there western powers breathing down its neck nor was there a dangerous threat from internal non-state actors. Pakistan today is slightly more sovereign than Puerto Rico, but that's about it".

Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?

Now it is certainly true that Pak is in an unenviable bind today, mostly of its own doing (though the ill will of our Indian and Western friends cannot be minimized). And I am not going to thump my chest and say that we will beat the odds stacked against us blah blah blah, knowing the moral caliber of our Punju lot.

But I will stick my neck out and say that we have an even chance provided we believe in ourselves and do right by all our fellow citizens.

"Yaar Pakis (most anyway) no doubt are a dignified lot, but principles alone cannot help a nation survive. All nations, howsoever powerful make compromises and the less powerful they are, the more compromises they end up making. Germany and Japan swallowed their humiliation at the hands of the allies only to emerge among the most developed nations today. There is a lesson in it for Pakistan, don't you think?".

Yaar, personally, I do not believe in mere existence and survival at whatever cost. If it be God's Will that we do not survive then so be it.

Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated. In the case of Pak, I think they will avoid outright war with any external forces as best as they can (one hopes). But if war does find its way into our courtyard anyway, then all bets are off. Don't expect the havayoons to surrender quitely. It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come; that is if some hothead on either side of the border doesn't discover the nuclear trigger first while inebriated with whiskey.

"Yaar the Afghans are born to fight - warfare is their bread and butter. A wolf with stripes painted on it will not change into a tiger. Similarly Pakis (Indians too) cannot fight indefinitely and remain unaffected because we are probably more endowed with brain than brawn. Oops, my comparison of Pakis with Indians is bound to ranke a few Pakistan...but what the heck!".

Yaar woh ek zamaanay mayN hamaaray des mayN ek khabti shaa'er hota thaa; voh kehta tha ke:

"apni millat par qayaas aqwaam'e maghrib se na kar

khaas hae tarkib mayN Qaum'e rassol'e haashmi".

Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... Sad, but what can we do?

Viqarm sahib,

(right of self-determination )

How about extending it to the people of Pakistan first? And incidentally what about Army occupation of FATA, as Zee sahib would inform you that's against the terms and conditions on which FATA acceded to Pakistan.

(it is kinda ludicrous to expect Pakistan to simply pack its bags and go home.)

Why can't Pak just pack its bags and go home? After all it is not their ancestral property anyway. Besdies since the UN (whom you are referring to) does not think it necessary to intervene, why shud Pak?

(Our havayoon provide whatever support they can to the Kashmiri fighters)

The Americans are killing far more Momins in Iraq and A'stan, their services are more required there.

(And since we do not consider J&K to be Indian territory, I don't know why India is upset about it.)

But India does consider J&K to be Injun territory so it has a right to object.

(After all you do infiltrate whoever you can find into Baluchistan and NWFP.)

I think you are right about B'stan. Injuns do occasionally do some karnamas there but that is mainly in retaliation to J&K. This is wrong and shud stop immediately after Pak stops meddling in J&K.

Regards

Re: # 51

Majumdar Sahib,

"How? If we have established that Pakistan has no claim to J&K, how is it a party to the dispute?".

On the basis of the priciple of the partitioning of the subcontinent, and the UN acceptance of the right of self-determination for Kashmiris, and the desire of the Kashmiris themselves to determine their future (which may result in special relationship with Pakistan or India or both).

What I have suggested is that neither India nor Pakistan have any claim to Kashmir. Now since India has imposed itself on Kashmir on the basis of "might is right" it is kinda ludicrous to expect Pakistan to simply pack its bags and go home.

"Here you are wrong. JK signed the IofA in 1947 and has been regularly participating in elections since then".

Sorry, I am not wrong. that IofA was signed by a puppet administration. If it was that clear-cut, UN would never have accepted the right of self-determination for the Kashmiris.

"You guys recall your havayoons who are spreading terror in J&K, we will do so. We have no desire to keep so many soldiers in J&K".

Our havayoon provide whatever support they can to the Kashmiri fighters in the struggle for their rights. And since we do not consider J&K to be Indian territory, I don't know why India is upset about it.

"Why does Pak need troops there? Has India starting infiltrating jihadis into POK and NA?".

If you can find Kashmiris willing to come and fight with Pakistanis in POK, feel free to do so.

After all you do infiltrate whoever you can find into Baluchistan and NWFP. I am sure it isn't due to your angelic disposition that you avoid doing the same in Kashmir.

I think NFP should be counted amongst such journalists as Ahmed Quraishi (who?) the one of 'plan to topple Pakistan military' article fame. I mean NFP is leaving behind AG Abdul Qayoom in bending over backwards to find a needle in haystack to praise Musharraf and which is not even a needle but some dried piece of dog shit.