The Good Monster: Musharraf's Cultural Legacy
Nadeem F Paracha December 8, 2007
#133 Posted by FakirIppi on January 3, 2008 1:10:25 am
Re: # 130 is FP and NFP one person.its quite possible.
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#132 Posted by Faisal.K on January 3, 2008 12:40:24 am
Obviously you are a brilliant writer. Is is however always necessary to take the other side? Your mission in life seems to "be" against the popular tide. I do understand the inability of such a "great dissident" like yourself to jump on the bandwagon, but please..stop knocking those who are at least trying to bring about some change.
#131 Posted by foggy1 on December 18, 2007 5:29:17 am
apparently the trouble with our people’s political view is that nobody looks good when governing from top,for more than a couple of years.and merely fighting this view is enough to deplete the fuel for any sort of progress.conflicts and paradoxes will be the theme of a leaders personality when his favored education, talent and intention, for competitive progress is exhausted before it comes into being proper-vis a vis the sinking marshes of poverty, population and political partying (the latter) only for power hungry loot bag ‘party games’, and not at all for providing solutions for the former two! that does not mean good souls do not occupy official positions.there are many who do not like to see people suffering because of weak administration. i have seen many officials go outta their way to help folk. one wishes however that the adminstrative set up would be intrinsic strong and completely immune to the interference of politics.
#130 Posted by Skeptical on December 17, 2007 1:01:11 pm
Writers like Mr NFP make me feel ashamed....
Article after article...
he is just giving the same message...
a powerful writer he just gives a different spin.....
when 12th May happened this guy defended fascists by saying that the concerned party due to its orgination in Zia regme 'was suffering from "persecution paranoia" and it was really not their fault...
When people were on the steets protesting CJ removal he was complaining of over coverage of CJ crisis....
Subsequently when there was a drop in public protest due to government tactics and emergency, he was taunting those who were braving state brutality by calling them victims of anal middle class mentality...lack of common man protest was touted as evidence of non issue of judicial crisis...
Mr Paracha twists the facts according to his comfort....
downplays any opposition to Musharraf regime by either calling the opponents having confused twisted mentality or blames them for their so called ignorance of geo politics....
If Mr NFP loves Musharraf so much, I think rather than coming with all this crap he should join Muslim League Q and stop this non sense portrayal of being an old fashioned marxist...
Article after article...
he is just giving the same message...
a powerful writer he just gives a different spin.....
when 12th May happened this guy defended fascists by saying that the concerned party due to its orgination in Zia regme 'was suffering from "persecution paranoia" and it was really not their fault...
When people were on the steets protesting CJ removal he was complaining of over coverage of CJ crisis....
Subsequently when there was a drop in public protest due to government tactics and emergency, he was taunting those who were braving state brutality by calling them victims of anal middle class mentality...lack of common man protest was touted as evidence of non issue of judicial crisis...
Mr Paracha twists the facts according to his comfort....
downplays any opposition to Musharraf regime by either calling the opponents having confused twisted mentality or blames them for their so called ignorance of geo politics....
If Mr NFP loves Musharraf so much, I think rather than coming with all this crap he should join Muslim League Q and stop this non sense portrayal of being an old fashioned marxist...
#129 Posted by arjun8 on December 15, 2007 11:00:54 am
damn..they used the same playbook...literally..
On Retainer in Pakistan, to Ease Military Rulers’ Path
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan
AT 84, Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, mysterious, influential and scorned by Pakistan’s protesters, fixes things when military rulers take over here, scripting temporary charters and new oaths of office as constitutions are shredded and judges dismissed.
Mr. Pirzada is the lawyer for President Pervez Musharraf, who turned to him when he decided he would get rid of a Supreme Court that was threatening to derail his re-election for a second term.
By Mr. Pirzada’s account, delivered as he sat on a brocade-covered couch in his living room, he met with Mr. Musharraf and his cabinet on Nov. 2, the day before martial law was imposed.
The emergency decree to replace the real Constitution had already been dusted off. Mr. Pirzada made some final touches on the document, which was familiar to him: he had composed it for Gen. Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, who seized power in 1977. “They always keep things ready,” he said of his handiwork.
The emergency order that Mr. Pirzada wrote is expected to be lifted Saturday. But at the same time a new raft of provisions devised to enhance Mr. Musharraf’s presidential powers, particularly over the courts, will be enacted without Parliament’s assent. “Why should we wait for Parliament?” Mr. Pirzada said.
To those who complain that he has perverted the course of democracy in Pakistan by easing the path of military dictators — first Gen. Mohammad Ayub Khan in 1958, then Gen. Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan in 1969, followed by General Zia, and now Mr. Musharraf — Mr. Pirzada says he is just a lawyer for hire available to anyone who wants his services.
He even helped the opposition leaders Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif on several cases when they were civilian prime ministers, he said.
“The question of conscience in law hardly matters as long as you influence the authorities to be moderate and exercise restraint,” he said. “Otherwise they take extreme steps.”
An interview with Mr. Pirzada is a bit like a drawing room boxing match, a jab here, a polite jab back, an offense there, a defensive move in rejoinder. Confident and cool, short in stature, he offers an occasional smile, and a slight underlying charm that must comfort needy clients and reassure knowing judges.
IN making no apologies for his role in Pakistan’s troubled history, Mr. Pirzada does not deny the mordant view that he once expressed about himself and his homeland.
“Accept me as I am with warts, blemishes, briefcases and all,” he told Ardeshir Cowasjee, a veteran columnist for the newspaper Dawn. “If it were not for all the weak and corrupt governments of Pakistan, I would not be where I am today.”
Asked if he had indeed said that, Mr. Pirzada said evenly, “That is substantially correct.”
Mr. Cowasjee spoke with a chuckle on the telephone about his friend of many decades: “He can play any game by any rules — which he makes most of the time,” he said from his home in Karachi, where Mr. Pirzada also lives most of the time.
Pakistan’s lawyers, scandalized by the imposition of military rule and the arrest of judges and prominent lawyers under the Nov. 3 decree, continue to protest. Several lawyers, including the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association, Aitzaz Ahsan, remain under house arrest, and the chief justice of the Supreme Court, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, and other Supreme Court justices are being kept behind barbed wire and police guard at their homes.
There is no secret about the poisonous relationship between the polar opposites, Mr. Ahsan and Mr. Pirzada. The former is flamboyant, out front, a Cambridge University graduate. Mr. Pirzada is reserved — “very suspicious by nature,” wrote one of his early bosses, President Ayub Khan, in 1967 in his published diaries — born and educated in Bombay, now Mumbai. He came to Pakistan after partition in 1947 as a poor young man.
“He stands out as an example of all that a lawyer and a jurist must not be,” Mr. Ahsan wrote three years ago when he declined an invitation to join a committee on constitutional reform that Mr. Pirzada was a member of. “Pirzada has the unique distinction of having been a willing partner in each one of the four military regimes.”
After being reminded of Mr. Ahsan’s characterization of him, Mr. Pirzada retorted that any mention of his enemy within earshot was off limits. “I would not like to hear his name at all.” The comments were “improper and malicious,” he said.
Mr. Pirzada stresses his early pedigree as an assistant to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the lawyer-politician who insisted on a separate country for the Muslims of British-ruled India. He often mentions his association, and plays up a 1944 photograph he says was taken of him standing between Mr. Jinnah and Gandhi, even though his friends insist the photo is a fake.
“He told me to become a lawyer,” said Mr. Pirzada of the man he calls his mentor. “I wanted to be a writer, something like that. If I had, I would have ended up on the streets.”
His first major posts in a military government were as foreign minister and then attorney general for General Mohammad Ayub Khan. It was under General Zia that Mr. Pirzada got his first big taste of power. “Zia took over July 5, 1977,” he recalled. “He inducted me as attorney general. I got the validation of his takeover by the Supreme Court.”
Mr. Musharraf first sought Mr. Pirzada at 2:30 a.m. on Oct. 13, 1999, a few hours after he seized power. Mr. Pirzada says he received a phone call from the general, asking him to come immediately with him to Islamabad. So confident was Mr. Pirzada in his indispensability in the general’s hour of need that he replied that he needed his sleep. “I said, ‘No, I will come in the afternoon.’ I took the midday plane, then I met him.”
ONE of the standard deviations used by Mr. Pirzada when smoothing the path for a new military government is to demand that judges take an oath that omits the phrase “to protect, uphold and defend the Constitution.” In this way, his critics said, Mr. Pirzada and his masters are able to get rid of judges not to their liking.
Mr. Pirzada put the oaths to work on Mr. Musharraf’s behalf in January 2000 when the Supreme Court justices, numbering 13 at the time, were asked with little warning to take the new oath of office. One judge, Wajihuddin Ahmed, recalled, “Six of us refused,” and were forced out.
Last month, Supreme Court judges were again required to take the oath Mr. Pirzada devised. This time, 12 of 17 judges refused. But, unlike those who did not oblige in 2000, the recalcitrant judges were arrested.
Mr. Pirzada has been rewarded for his services to Mr. Musharraf with a post on the National Security Council, a role as senior adviser in the Musharraf cabinet, and several trips accompanying the general on visits to Washington to see President Bush.
As much as Pakistan’s opposition lawyers speak with disdain of Mr. Pirzada, he replies in kind. “They were acting as politicians,” he said of the protesting lawyers.
Anyway, he asked, what has civilian rule contributed to Pakistan? He answered with the note of a practiced cynic: “The trouble is the people of Pakistan. They were merely spectators. Half the time there has been military rule, and half civilian rule. Both were alike in despotism and corruption.”
On Retainer in Pakistan, to Ease Military Rulers’ Path
By JANE PERLEZ
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan
AT 84, Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, mysterious, influential and scorned by Pakistan’s protesters, fixes things when military rulers take over here, scripting temporary charters and new oaths of office as constitutions are shredded and judges dismissed.
Mr. Pirzada is the lawyer for President Pervez Musharraf, who turned to him when he decided he would get rid of a Supreme Court that was threatening to derail his re-election for a second term.
By Mr. Pirzada’s account, delivered as he sat on a brocade-covered couch in his living room, he met with Mr. Musharraf and his cabinet on Nov. 2, the day before martial law was imposed.
The emergency decree to replace the real Constitution had already been dusted off. Mr. Pirzada made some final touches on the document, which was familiar to him: he had composed it for Gen. Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, who seized power in 1977. “They always keep things ready,” he said of his handiwork.
The emergency order that Mr. Pirzada wrote is expected to be lifted Saturday. But at the same time a new raft of provisions devised to enhance Mr. Musharraf’s presidential powers, particularly over the courts, will be enacted without Parliament’s assent. “Why should we wait for Parliament?” Mr. Pirzada said.
To those who complain that he has perverted the course of democracy in Pakistan by easing the path of military dictators — first Gen. Mohammad Ayub Khan in 1958, then Gen. Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan in 1969, followed by General Zia, and now Mr. Musharraf — Mr. Pirzada says he is just a lawyer for hire available to anyone who wants his services.
He even helped the opposition leaders Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif on several cases when they were civilian prime ministers, he said.
“The question of conscience in law hardly matters as long as you influence the authorities to be moderate and exercise restraint,” he said. “Otherwise they take extreme steps.”
An interview with Mr. Pirzada is a bit like a drawing room boxing match, a jab here, a polite jab back, an offense there, a defensive move in rejoinder. Confident and cool, short in stature, he offers an occasional smile, and a slight underlying charm that must comfort needy clients and reassure knowing judges.
IN making no apologies for his role in Pakistan’s troubled history, Mr. Pirzada does not deny the mordant view that he once expressed about himself and his homeland.
“Accept me as I am with warts, blemishes, briefcases and all,” he told Ardeshir Cowasjee, a veteran columnist for the newspaper Dawn. “If it were not for all the weak and corrupt governments of Pakistan, I would not be where I am today.”
Asked if he had indeed said that, Mr. Pirzada said evenly, “That is substantially correct.”
Mr. Cowasjee spoke with a chuckle on the telephone about his friend of many decades: “He can play any game by any rules — which he makes most of the time,” he said from his home in Karachi, where Mr. Pirzada also lives most of the time.
Pakistan’s lawyers, scandalized by the imposition of military rule and the arrest of judges and prominent lawyers under the Nov. 3 decree, continue to protest. Several lawyers, including the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association, Aitzaz Ahsan, remain under house arrest, and the chief justice of the Supreme Court, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, and other Supreme Court justices are being kept behind barbed wire and police guard at their homes.
There is no secret about the poisonous relationship between the polar opposites, Mr. Ahsan and Mr. Pirzada. The former is flamboyant, out front, a Cambridge University graduate. Mr. Pirzada is reserved — “very suspicious by nature,” wrote one of his early bosses, President Ayub Khan, in 1967 in his published diaries — born and educated in Bombay, now Mumbai. He came to Pakistan after partition in 1947 as a poor young man.
“He stands out as an example of all that a lawyer and a jurist must not be,” Mr. Ahsan wrote three years ago when he declined an invitation to join a committee on constitutional reform that Mr. Pirzada was a member of. “Pirzada has the unique distinction of having been a willing partner in each one of the four military regimes.”
After being reminded of Mr. Ahsan’s characterization of him, Mr. Pirzada retorted that any mention of his enemy within earshot was off limits. “I would not like to hear his name at all.” The comments were “improper and malicious,” he said.
Mr. Pirzada stresses his early pedigree as an assistant to the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the lawyer-politician who insisted on a separate country for the Muslims of British-ruled India. He often mentions his association, and plays up a 1944 photograph he says was taken of him standing between Mr. Jinnah and Gandhi, even though his friends insist the photo is a fake.
“He told me to become a lawyer,” said Mr. Pirzada of the man he calls his mentor. “I wanted to be a writer, something like that. If I had, I would have ended up on the streets.”
His first major posts in a military government were as foreign minister and then attorney general for General Mohammad Ayub Khan. It was under General Zia that Mr. Pirzada got his first big taste of power. “Zia took over July 5, 1977,” he recalled. “He inducted me as attorney general. I got the validation of his takeover by the Supreme Court.”
Mr. Musharraf first sought Mr. Pirzada at 2:30 a.m. on Oct. 13, 1999, a few hours after he seized power. Mr. Pirzada says he received a phone call from the general, asking him to come immediately with him to Islamabad. So confident was Mr. Pirzada in his indispensability in the general’s hour of need that he replied that he needed his sleep. “I said, ‘No, I will come in the afternoon.’ I took the midday plane, then I met him.”
ONE of the standard deviations used by Mr. Pirzada when smoothing the path for a new military government is to demand that judges take an oath that omits the phrase “to protect, uphold and defend the Constitution.” In this way, his critics said, Mr. Pirzada and his masters are able to get rid of judges not to their liking.
Mr. Pirzada put the oaths to work on Mr. Musharraf’s behalf in January 2000 when the Supreme Court justices, numbering 13 at the time, were asked with little warning to take the new oath of office. One judge, Wajihuddin Ahmed, recalled, “Six of us refused,” and were forced out.
Last month, Supreme Court judges were again required to take the oath Mr. Pirzada devised. This time, 12 of 17 judges refused. But, unlike those who did not oblige in 2000, the recalcitrant judges were arrested.
Mr. Pirzada has been rewarded for his services to Mr. Musharraf with a post on the National Security Council, a role as senior adviser in the Musharraf cabinet, and several trips accompanying the general on visits to Washington to see President Bush.
As much as Pakistan’s opposition lawyers speak with disdain of Mr. Pirzada, he replies in kind. “They were acting as politicians,” he said of the protesting lawyers.
Anyway, he asked, what has civilian rule contributed to Pakistan? He answered with the note of a practiced cynic: “The trouble is the people of Pakistan. They were merely spectators. Half the time there has been military rule, and half civilian rule. Both were alike in despotism and corruption.”
#128 Posted by bulleya on December 15, 2007 10:40:50 am
...the next election will be interesting......
......if the old judiciary is reinstalled, they will rule against musharraf (and probably the military staff officers), for high treason.....it is an open and shut case....treason (ghaddari) is the highest crime against a state, in pakistan.......and it carries the death penalty.....
......musharraf, kayani etc., obviously, cannot allow that.......to undo this, they need a legislature that legalizes everything they did......a compliant supreme court is not enough, as the majority in the legislature can over-rule it.......
.......it doesn't seem like pml(q) can win much......nor can, perhaps jui(f)......mqm will win, but it is a small local party.......most of the seats will go to ppp and pml(n)......
....in the last election, musharraf brutalized these parties, threatened and jailed them to get breakway factions.......e.g. he jailed yusuf gilani of ppp for over four years, to get him to switch parties.......he jailed naveed qamar of ppp for over two years.......he abolished all corruption cases against chaudhries etc.....much like he is doing against benazir.........
musharraf will either have to massively rig the elections......or he will have to go through another cycle of threatening, through kayani this time around.........the other option is to to forgive all corruption cases against benazir, and get her to cooperate......
.......so, basically, musharraf and kayani will have committted treason, themselves.......musharraf would have legalized the massively corrupt pml(q) members earlier and ppp members (specicically bb) this time.........
i had always said that the two most competently upright leaders in pakistan are aitezaz ahsan and imran khan......both of them have refused to take part in the election and have been targeted by the army and musharraf.......
........the two upright institutions have been media and legal folks........they are being targeted.......
imagine if 60-70% of the most upright members of a country's judiciary are forced out.........what is left behind.......the riff-raffs and the opportunists......how in the world will a judiciary recover from that......it's worst that kicking out 60-70% of the most competent businessmen in a country........
......if the old judiciary is reinstalled, they will rule against musharraf (and probably the military staff officers), for high treason.....it is an open and shut case....treason (ghaddari) is the highest crime against a state, in pakistan.......and it carries the death penalty.....
......musharraf, kayani etc., obviously, cannot allow that.......to undo this, they need a legislature that legalizes everything they did......a compliant supreme court is not enough, as the majority in the legislature can over-rule it.......
.......it doesn't seem like pml(q) can win much......nor can, perhaps jui(f)......mqm will win, but it is a small local party.......most of the seats will go to ppp and pml(n)......
....in the last election, musharraf brutalized these parties, threatened and jailed them to get breakway factions.......e.g. he jailed yusuf gilani of ppp for over four years, to get him to switch parties.......he jailed naveed qamar of ppp for over two years.......he abolished all corruption cases against chaudhries etc.....much like he is doing against benazir.........
musharraf will either have to massively rig the elections......or he will have to go through another cycle of threatening, through kayani this time around.........the other option is to to forgive all corruption cases against benazir, and get her to cooperate......
.......so, basically, musharraf and kayani will have committted treason, themselves.......musharraf would have legalized the massively corrupt pml(q) members earlier and ppp members (specicically bb) this time.........
i had always said that the two most competently upright leaders in pakistan are aitezaz ahsan and imran khan......both of them have refused to take part in the election and have been targeted by the army and musharraf.......
........the two upright institutions have been media and legal folks........they are being targeted.......
imagine if 60-70% of the most upright members of a country's judiciary are forced out.........what is left behind.......the riff-raffs and the opportunists......how in the world will a judiciary recover from that......it's worst that kicking out 60-70% of the most competent businessmen in a country........
#127 Posted by bulleya on December 15, 2007 10:20:31 am
anil #various: ...let's forget about what others think of musharraf and see how he evaluates himself......
musharraf put in this second martial, when according to his own words, the govt had failed and the country was on a path of being a failed state.......this was stated by musharraf the general, against a govt. led by musharraf the president......
......this was, thus, a unique international case, where a general carried out a coup against himself........
when, musharraf is himself stating that the govt. run by him has totally failed, then how can anyone else argue against it......
what, basically, needs to be evaluated has nothing to do with musharraf......it has to do with the two institutions he was leading........the army and the executive/legislature.........
what musharraf has done is to state that the army should run the country and not the executive/legislature, and that the judiciary should have no say in the constitution.....
.......so this is a victory for the army under musharraf, against the civilian institutions under the same musharraf.....the supreme court ruling would not have just kicked out musharraf, it would have eventually taken out the army from the whole state system of pakistan.......
so a better evaluation criteria would be whether the army can run pakistan better or the civilians........i know the army too well........trust me they cannot run a private factory, much less the country......
the other point that you need to address is the following: pakistan now, after iraq, has the second highest number of suicide bombings in the world........all of this started under musharraf.......how in the world is that good for pakistan........
people who used to taunt me for not returning to pakistan, are now planning their exit strategy........
can the civilians run pakistan.......i don't know........can the army run, definitely not......doesn't matter whether it is led by musharraf or anyone else........
pakistan was on the verge of establishing what is the most important factor in a country......i don't know of too many countries, where the judiciary and legal community had become so vibrant.........musharraf and the miltiary have destroyed that.......which constitutes, according to pakistani law, to be treason......it's an open and shut case........and for that the penalty is death......
......let's forget about ns, bb and musharraf......it is a fair judiciary that is the strength of any country......
musharraf put in this second martial, when according to his own words, the govt had failed and the country was on a path of being a failed state.......this was stated by musharraf the general, against a govt. led by musharraf the president......
......this was, thus, a unique international case, where a general carried out a coup against himself........
when, musharraf is himself stating that the govt. run by him has totally failed, then how can anyone else argue against it......
what, basically, needs to be evaluated has nothing to do with musharraf......it has to do with the two institutions he was leading........the army and the executive/legislature.........
what musharraf has done is to state that the army should run the country and not the executive/legislature, and that the judiciary should have no say in the constitution.....
.......so this is a victory for the army under musharraf, against the civilian institutions under the same musharraf.....the supreme court ruling would not have just kicked out musharraf, it would have eventually taken out the army from the whole state system of pakistan.......
so a better evaluation criteria would be whether the army can run pakistan better or the civilians........i know the army too well........trust me they cannot run a private factory, much less the country......
the other point that you need to address is the following: pakistan now, after iraq, has the second highest number of suicide bombings in the world........all of this started under musharraf.......how in the world is that good for pakistan........
people who used to taunt me for not returning to pakistan, are now planning their exit strategy........
can the civilians run pakistan.......i don't know........can the army run, definitely not......doesn't matter whether it is led by musharraf or anyone else........
pakistan was on the verge of establishing what is the most important factor in a country......i don't know of too many countries, where the judiciary and legal community had become so vibrant.........musharraf and the miltiary have destroyed that.......which constitutes, according to pakistani law, to be treason......it's an open and shut case........and for that the penalty is death......
......let's forget about ns, bb and musharraf......it is a fair judiciary that is the strength of any country......
#126 Posted by zeemax on December 15, 2007 8:58:23 am
tahmed32,
Did you just hear the speech? So all pieces fall in place. Remember this idiot's earlier assertions about 'Unity of Command'?
Well, that's what he wants to do. All institutions i.e. Legislature, Judiciary, Media and the rest to function under a 'Unity of Command'.
In other words, he wants to turn Pakistan into a Burma.
Oh well ....
Did you just hear the speech? So all pieces fall in place. Remember this idiot's earlier assertions about 'Unity of Command'?
Well, that's what he wants to do. All institutions i.e. Legislature, Judiciary, Media and the rest to function under a 'Unity of Command'.
In other words, he wants to turn Pakistan into a Burma.
Oh well ....
#125 Posted by rf786 on December 15, 2007 8:16:21 am
Re: # 122
"The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated. But that's another subject for another time."
Just a few weeks ago u were strutting around chowk celebrating victory in Swat and proclaiming that the time is near. Now that you have your ass whipped and handed to u on a platter u have found refuge in this alliance of necessity.
I told u then and repeat the same, time of irrational refuge in ideologies of the fourteenth century are over, sooner u and your ilk realize this the better.
"The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated. But that's another subject for another time."
Just a few weeks ago u were strutting around chowk celebrating victory in Swat and proclaiming that the time is near. Now that you have your ass whipped and handed to u on a platter u have found refuge in this alliance of necessity.
I told u then and repeat the same, time of irrational refuge in ideologies of the fourteenth century are over, sooner u and your ilk realize this the better.
#124 Posted by rf786 on December 15, 2007 8:09:44 am
Re: # 121
tahmed32,
"Mush and his chowk propagandist Nadeem Paracha love you too"
Qibla, "labeling" those who disagree with your point of view represents weakness in conviction. If you have evidence and strength in conviction then u need not resort to such chichorra tactics. Then again, aap samajdar hein.
tahmed32,
"Mush and his chowk propagandist Nadeem Paracha love you too"
Qibla, "labeling" those who disagree with your point of view represents weakness in conviction. If you have evidence and strength in conviction then u need not resort to such chichorra tactics. Then again, aap samajdar hein.
#123 Posted by arjun8 on December 15, 2007 7:12:06 am
#122 Posted by zeemax on December 15, 2007 7:10:23 am
The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated.
yeah....the paki army needs to import white phosphorus ASAP and allah need to keep more virgins ready...
The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated.
yeah....the paki army needs to import white phosphorus ASAP and allah need to keep more virgins ready...
#122 Posted by zeemax on December 15, 2007 7:10:23 am
#121 Posted by tahmed32,
tahmed saheb Sir, I resent your mentioning me and people like this paracha in the same sentence.
I demand an immediate and unconditional apology!
Actually there's no bogeyman. musharraf himself, in his overblown self-confidence, has acknowledged in several interviews with foreign media that the one and only reason for his action of Nov 3 was the superior judiciary. That's all. A few days ago he even went to the extent of telling ABC that the C.J was trying to remove him so he removed him first! I.e. just as he removed NS when NS tried to remove him. No difference. So where's the bogeyman?
The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated. But that's another subject for another time.
tahmed saheb Sir, I resent your mentioning me and people like this paracha in the same sentence.
I demand an immediate and unconditional apology!
Actually there's no bogeyman. musharraf himself, in his overblown self-confidence, has acknowledged in several interviews with foreign media that the one and only reason for his action of Nov 3 was the superior judiciary. That's all. A few days ago he even went to the extent of telling ABC that the C.J was trying to remove him so he removed him first! I.e. just as he removed NS when NS tried to remove him. No difference. So where's the bogeyman?
The emergence of the United Tehreek-e-Taliban of Pakistan is a huge development though and not to be underestimated. But that's another subject for another time.
#121 Posted by tahmed32 on December 15, 2007 6:42:28 am
zeemax: Mush and his chowk propagandist Nadeem Paracha love you too!! After all - the "mullah bogeyman" has been Mush's prime rationale for dictatorship, and you are only too happy to oblige.
Thank God for the majority of the Pakistanis who can see through the games that mush has been playing and who also couldnt give two hoots for maulvis (who have thrived only under dictators mush and zia).
Thank God for the majority of the Pakistanis who can see through the games that mush has been playing and who also couldnt give two hoots for maulvis (who have thrived only under dictators mush and zia).
#120 Posted by zeemax on December 14, 2007 10:50:37 pm
#110 Posted by tahmed32
driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people ..
#111 Posted by masadi
... the demand presented in crystal clear slogans was "Go Musharraf Go" and Musharraf has NOT gone....
Both the above statements cannot be denied. However, the fact as has emerged is that the shedding of the 'wardi' has done no good at all since today the constitution has been turned into a presidential form of government (instead of Parliamentary) plus removal of both eligibility as well as tenure clauses for the president. What that means is ... Hosni Mubarak.
So, when musharraf took off the wardi, he knew exactly what he was going to do next to maintain the SAME power. Wardi or no wardi. And he has achieved that. That's what I was saying all along.
I, therefore maintain as before that only providence can/will remove musharraf.
I may add though that it may very well be Baitullah Mehsud under whose command the various regional/tribal local Taliban movements (Bajaur, Mohmand Agency, Parachinar, Malakand, Swat) have united yesterday and vowed to step up war.
driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people ..
#111 Posted by masadi
... the demand presented in crystal clear slogans was "Go Musharraf Go" and Musharraf has NOT gone....
Both the above statements cannot be denied. However, the fact as has emerged is that the shedding of the 'wardi' has done no good at all since today the constitution has been turned into a presidential form of government (instead of Parliamentary) plus removal of both eligibility as well as tenure clauses for the president. What that means is ... Hosni Mubarak.
So, when musharraf took off the wardi, he knew exactly what he was going to do next to maintain the SAME power. Wardi or no wardi. And he has achieved that. That's what I was saying all along.
I, therefore maintain as before that only providence can/will remove musharraf.
I may add though that it may very well be Baitullah Mehsud under whose command the various regional/tribal local Taliban movements (Bajaur, Mohmand Agency, Parachinar, Malakand, Swat) have united yesterday and vowed to step up war.
#119 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 7:59:44 pm
#117 masadi: you are incorrect in saying that i have "not replied to anything" - when in fact in #110 and #113 i have in fact replied to the two issues you wrote. and, per #116, it is you who is merely repeating yourself.
The fact is that in raising these hollow issues, you have sidelined the real issue. Namely, that this article is an attempt by the Nadeem Paracha to give Musharraf undue credit while berating the Pakistani people who are supposed to be grateful to this man for "culture".
Great job, masadi! Musharraf loves you. His PR man Nadeem Paracha loves you.
The fact is that in raising these hollow issues, you have sidelined the real issue. Namely, that this article is an attempt by the Nadeem Paracha to give Musharraf undue credit while berating the Pakistani people who are supposed to be grateful to this man for "culture".
Great job, masadi! Musharraf loves you. His PR man Nadeem Paracha loves you.
#118 Posted by chaltahai on December 14, 2007 6:05:25 pm
assadhi, this has nothing to do with the US elite but more to do with Musharraf's cultural legacy. Follow your own advice and stick to the topic, half-assed chump
#117 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 5:58:41 pm
Tahmed in #116, you have not replied to anything, you have again tried in quite a futile way to cover up what is quite obvious, US interference in the Pakistan political scence, circumventing the will of the Pakistani people and at times manipulating it for their own use. There are no insults in my posts to you either, what I state about you are the obvious facts that are understood by most on this site without my even mentioning them...
#116 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 5:45:41 pm
masadi #113/5: i did not red-flag your posts (I could have done so given that your personal insults violate chowk guidelines, but I chose to respond to your post instead).
Again, ignoring your personal insults in this latest set of two posts - you are merely repeating what you said in #111/112. And I already addressed that #113. Therefore re-read #113.
Again, ignoring your personal insults in this latest set of two posts - you are merely repeating what you said in #111/112. And I already addressed that #113. Therefore re-read #113.
#115 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 5:13:09 pm
Very funny, some fool has red flagged my post #111, must be tahmed or his chaprasee....
#114 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 5:07:52 pm
More BS by tahmed in his usual spineless manner. I have changed nothing, the people of Pakistan do not care about wardi or non wardi, they want the fool gone, it was the Americans that want Musharraf both powerless and part of the stop gap "democracy", and so they have insisted that he give up the uniform. The people of Pakistan made no such demand, they demanded "go musharraf go", and the fool hasn't gone. Regarding his giving up the uniform it was 100% due to American ultimatums in the phone calls and the visit....
#113 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 4:12:49 pm
masadi #111/112: ignoring your personal insults (which is 80% of these posts), the only substantive thing you are saying is: "The fact is that the people want Musharraf gone, they don't care about wardi, non wardi".
In saying this, you have now changed the issue. In your post below you had written: It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the US elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum..
I showed the superficial nature of your claim in #110 below where I showed that if it was not for the brave struggle of the Pakistani civil society, musharraf would still be sitting pretty as president and a uniformed officer.
So, now you ignore your original claim above, and bring up this new issue, i.e. i.e. that taking off the wardi is not enough. The answer is - of course not. But that does not change the fact that in saying musharraf parted with his wardi simply due to US pressure - you demonstrate your disdain for the Pakistani people whom you treat as non-entities in this struggle. and you demonstrate your inferiority complex whereby you consider the "US elite" to be some God Almighty without whose permission not a sparrow can fall.
In saying this, you have now changed the issue. In your post below you had written: It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the US elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum..
I showed the superficial nature of your claim in #110 below where I showed that if it was not for the brave struggle of the Pakistani civil society, musharraf would still be sitting pretty as president and a uniformed officer.
So, now you ignore your original claim above, and bring up this new issue, i.e. i.e. that taking off the wardi is not enough. The answer is - of course not. But that does not change the fact that in saying musharraf parted with his wardi simply due to US pressure - you demonstrate your disdain for the Pakistani people whom you treat as non-entities in this struggle. and you demonstrate your inferiority complex whereby you consider the "US elite" to be some God Almighty without whose permission not a sparrow can fall.
#112 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 10:54:45 am
In addition to #111, let me reiterate that the ONLY reason tahmed is making these posts about the wardi and the people of Pakistan is not because he either understands the issues or cares about the Pakistani folk. His reason is just to try to equate the desires of the US elite as if they were desires of the people of Pakistan. The age old trick of trying to legitimize the barbarism of his masters and to further our slavery to them. It is time we rejected this BS, rejected those who go along with the BS and understood people promoting this BS as the enemies of the people...
#111 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 10:51:01 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
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#110 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 10:15:14 am
ignore #109. Instead, I have below that plus a bit more that I added:
zeemax: This is how it works (the way I see it) -
1. After 8 years of an unelected rule, with fake referendum, deals with mullah diesal to prolong his stay, less than inspiring personality (constant lies, mocking and attempted suppression of rape victims) mush had long overstayed his welcome.
2. So when, in his usual brazen manner, he demanded another "extension" of his illegal rule - the Chief Justice put his foot down.
3. Mush fires CJ.
4. Public finally said enough - and rose to CJ's support.
5. Mush gets peaceful demonstrators killed on May 12 in attempt to suppress public.
6. Public refuses to be intimidated.
7. Pictures of suited-lawyers with heads bleeding from lathi charges hit newspapers around the world. World realizes that the alternative to mush is a large and active civil society, not a bunch of crazed maulvis. Mush's carefully cultivated myth is broken!!
8. Pakistan military morale suffers, since they see themselves as becoming increasingly unpopular among their own people. Note that in the few statements made by the COAS and another senior general, they both referred to the need for populat support for the army to be effective. Read Ayaz Amir in his article in Dawn who noticed this too. Never in his 8 years did mush ever refer to this obvious point, and indeed tried to give the opposite message to the military on his retirement speech.
9. Bush government sees an opportunity and a problem. The problem is that mush attacking civil society, losing support in the military, while terrorists are running riot in tribal areas and swat. So, Bush admin can no longer have one man hold hostage its relations with Pakistan, and changes policy to broaden ties with civil society. On the flip side, the opportunity is that there is a large civil society it can engage with. American ambassador takes unprecedented steps like calling for freedom of press in events organized by media; in seeking dialogue with mush's worst nightmares, like Aitezaz Ahsan.
10. Mush is separated from his wardi, crying and weeping.
So, take a look at the above complete picture as described above, and of course the driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people, inspired by the Chief Justice. To deny this fact is to deny Pakistani people the credit for their courage.
Hope this explains and let me know if I am missing something above.
zeemax: This is how it works (the way I see it) -
1. After 8 years of an unelected rule, with fake referendum, deals with mullah diesal to prolong his stay, less than inspiring personality (constant lies, mocking and attempted suppression of rape victims) mush had long overstayed his welcome.
2. So when, in his usual brazen manner, he demanded another "extension" of his illegal rule - the Chief Justice put his foot down.
3. Mush fires CJ.
4. Public finally said enough - and rose to CJ's support.
5. Mush gets peaceful demonstrators killed on May 12 in attempt to suppress public.
6. Public refuses to be intimidated.
7. Pictures of suited-lawyers with heads bleeding from lathi charges hit newspapers around the world. World realizes that the alternative to mush is a large and active civil society, not a bunch of crazed maulvis. Mush's carefully cultivated myth is broken!!
8. Pakistan military morale suffers, since they see themselves as becoming increasingly unpopular among their own people. Note that in the few statements made by the COAS and another senior general, they both referred to the need for populat support for the army to be effective. Read Ayaz Amir in his article in Dawn who noticed this too. Never in his 8 years did mush ever refer to this obvious point, and indeed tried to give the opposite message to the military on his retirement speech.
9. Bush government sees an opportunity and a problem. The problem is that mush attacking civil society, losing support in the military, while terrorists are running riot in tribal areas and swat. So, Bush admin can no longer have one man hold hostage its relations with Pakistan, and changes policy to broaden ties with civil society. On the flip side, the opportunity is that there is a large civil society it can engage with. American ambassador takes unprecedented steps like calling for freedom of press in events organized by media; in seeking dialogue with mush's worst nightmares, like Aitezaz Ahsan.
10. Mush is separated from his wardi, crying and weeping.
So, take a look at the above complete picture as described above, and of course the driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people, inspired by the Chief Justice. To deny this fact is to deny Pakistani people the credit for their courage.
Hope this explains and let me know if I am missing something above.
#109 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 10:05:02 am
zeemax: This is how it works (the way I see it) -
1. After 8 years of an unelected rule, with fake referendum, deals with mullah diesal to prolong his stay, less than inspiring personality (constant lies, mocking and attempted suppression of rape victims) mush had long overstayed his welcome.
2. So when, in his usual brazen manner, he demanded another "extension" of his illegal rule - the Chief Justice put his foot down.
3. Mush fires CJ.
4. Public finally said enough - and rose to CJ's support.
5. Mush gets peaceful demonstrators killed on May 12 in attempt to suppress public.
6. Public refuses to be intimidated.
7. Pictures of suited-lawyers with heads bleeding from lathi charges hit newspapers around the world. World realizes that the alternative to mush is a large and active civil society, not a bunch of crazed maulvis. Mush's carefully cultivated myth is broken!!
8. Pakistan military morale suffers, since they see themselves as becoming increasingly unpopular among their own people.
9. Bush government sees an opportunity and a problem. The problem is that mush attacking civil society, losing support in the military, while terrorists are running riot in tribal areas and swat. The opportunity is that there is a large civil society it can engage with. American ambassador takes unprecedented steps like calling for freedom of press in events organized by media; in seeking dialogue with mush's worst nightmares, like Aitezaz Ahsan.
10. Mush is separated from his wardi, crying and weeping.
So, take a look at the above complete pictures, and of course the driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people, inspired by the Chief Justice. To deny this fact is to deny Pakistani people the credit for their courage. Hope this explains.
1. After 8 years of an unelected rule, with fake referendum, deals with mullah diesal to prolong his stay, less than inspiring personality (constant lies, mocking and attempted suppression of rape victims) mush had long overstayed his welcome.
2. So when, in his usual brazen manner, he demanded another "extension" of his illegal rule - the Chief Justice put his foot down.
3. Mush fires CJ.
4. Public finally said enough - and rose to CJ's support.
5. Mush gets peaceful demonstrators killed on May 12 in attempt to suppress public.
6. Public refuses to be intimidated.
7. Pictures of suited-lawyers with heads bleeding from lathi charges hit newspapers around the world. World realizes that the alternative to mush is a large and active civil society, not a bunch of crazed maulvis. Mush's carefully cultivated myth is broken!!
8. Pakistan military morale suffers, since they see themselves as becoming increasingly unpopular among their own people.
9. Bush government sees an opportunity and a problem. The problem is that mush attacking civil society, losing support in the military, while terrorists are running riot in tribal areas and swat. The opportunity is that there is a large civil society it can engage with. American ambassador takes unprecedented steps like calling for freedom of press in events organized by media; in seeking dialogue with mush's worst nightmares, like Aitezaz Ahsan.
10. Mush is separated from his wardi, crying and weeping.
So, take a look at the above complete pictures, and of course the driving force behind mush's separation from his wardi have been the Pakistani people, inspired by the Chief Justice. To deny this fact is to deny Pakistani people the credit for their courage. Hope this explains.
#108 Posted by MeraPakistan on December 14, 2007 9:20:51 am
Since 1947, Pakistan is under pressure from US. So just singling out Musharraf is not right. Pakistan needs to be strong politically, militarily and most importantly economiclaly, so that we wont have to take dictation from US. Right now, we are not in the position to stand against US.
I think, Musharraf is doing the right thing, by focusing on the economy, defense and democracy, which will help us to break the shackles.
I think, Musharraf is doing the right thing, by focusing on the economy, defense and democracy, which will help us to break the shackles.
#107 Posted by MeraPakistan on December 14, 2007 9:15:23 am
well, in my opinion, very well balanced article. I have my FULL support for Musharraf, but I still think that he made a wrong decision on March 9th.
#106 Posted by zeemax on December 14, 2007 9:13:59 am
tahmed32,
tahmed, masadi is right re the uniform. musharraf doesn't have to give a damn about people's opinion as you've seen. It was the US pressure basically which forced him to do it (and Commonwealth suspension to some extent) to help his image abroad.
tahmed, masadi is right re the uniform. musharraf doesn't have to give a damn about people's opinion as you've seen. It was the US pressure basically which forced him to do it (and Commonwealth suspension to some extent) to help his image abroad.
#105 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 7:55:51 am
tahmed writes "I am not going to waste more time today with you."
Another common response from losers who are afraid of valid arguments and are afraid of the facts. Go on, put your tail between your legs and run off in your usual spineless manner...
Another common response from losers who are afraid of valid arguments and are afraid of the facts. Go on, put your tail between your legs and run off in your usual spineless manner...
#104 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 7:52:34 am
In 103 read "It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum. Americans control Pakistan through their occupation force, which hops to when its commander in chief, sitting in the US, gives looks sternly or disapprovingly. Of course the distance from Washington makes this relationship a little more complex but not complex enough for the general to hop to when he is talked to in no uncertain terms"
as
It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the US elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum. Americans control Pakistan through their occupation force,the Pakistan Army which hops to when its commander in chief, sitting in the US, looks sternly or disapprovingly. Of course the distance from Washington makes this relationship a little more complex but not complex enough for the general not to hop to when he is talked to in no uncertain terms by the members of the US elite.
as
It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the US elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum. Americans control Pakistan through their occupation force,the Pakistan Army which hops to when its commander in chief, sitting in the US, looks sternly or disapprovingly. Of course the distance from Washington makes this relationship a little more complex but not complex enough for the general not to hop to when he is talked to in no uncertain terms by the members of the US elite.
#103 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 7:49:23 am
tahmed the peon of the West writes "masadi: You seem to think that Americans are God. That not a sparrow can fall without their being behind it."
A common banality that those wanting to hide the crimes of their masters use. It does not take "God" to make a Pakistani general hop to. It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum. Americans control Pakistan through their occupation force, which hops to when its commander in chief, sitting in the US, gives looks sternly or disapprovingly. Of course the distance from Washington makes this relationship a little more complex but not complex enough for the general to hop to when he is talked to in no uncertain terms. The will of the US elite is not the will of the people of Pakistan and is certainly not in their interest, regardless of how hard you try to mask US interference in our affairs and equate that with the will of the people....
A common banality that those wanting to hide the crimes of their masters use. It does not take "God" to make a Pakistani general hop to. It merely takes a phone call by a low ranking member or server of the elite and maybe a short visit with an ultimatum. Americans control Pakistan through their occupation force, which hops to when its commander in chief, sitting in the US, gives looks sternly or disapprovingly. Of course the distance from Washington makes this relationship a little more complex but not complex enough for the general to hop to when he is talked to in no uncertain terms. The will of the US elite is not the will of the people of Pakistan and is certainly not in their interest, regardless of how hard you try to mask US interference in our affairs and equate that with the will of the people....
#102 Posted by tahmed32 on December 14, 2007 7:05:06 am
#101 masadi: You seem to think that Americans are God. That not a sparrow can fall without their being behind it.
And you think Pakistanis are so hapless that they cannot enforce their will.
No, Piano of the East. Americans are human. And Pakistanis are human. It is only your inferiority complex that leads you to think that Americans are all-mighty and Pakistanis are helpless. The facts are there for all those not blinded by complexes or hypocrisy to see: if it had not been for the bravery and integrity of thousands of Pakistanis, Mush would still be in uniform.
Now you can write try to cover-up this with your usual name-calling and personal insults. I am not going to waste more time today with you.
And you think Pakistanis are so hapless that they cannot enforce their will.
No, Piano of the East. Americans are human. And Pakistanis are human. It is only your inferiority complex that leads you to think that Americans are all-mighty and Pakistanis are helpless. The facts are there for all those not blinded by complexes or hypocrisy to see: if it had not been for the bravery and integrity of thousands of Pakistanis, Mush would still be in uniform.
Now you can write try to cover-up this with your usual name-calling and personal insults. I am not going to waste more time today with you.
#101 Posted by masadi on December 14, 2007 6:39:25 am
tahmed the peon of the West writes "anil sahib: mush's biggest "achievement" is in uniting the nation to separate him from his uniform"
The "people" had nothing to do with that, the Americans had everything to do with it. The "people" don't want anything to do with Musharraf with or without the uniform....but as usual, this peon of the West will try to associate the will of the US elite as if it were the will of the people of Pakistan...
The "people" had nothing to do with that, the Americans had everything to do with it. The "people" don't want anything to do with Musharraf with or without the uniform....but as usual, this peon of the West will try to associate the will of the US elite as if it were the will of the people of Pakistan...
#100 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 8:10:15 pm
anil sahib: mush's biggest "achievement" is in uniting the nation to separate him from his uniform.
#99 Posted by shishapa on December 13, 2007 7:37:40 pm
Re: # 96
Eklavyaji,
I do not know, As far as I think, the concept itself
was rotten, so foundtion was shaky. And then the
rot started with Objective Resolution.
Eklavyaji,
I do not know, As far as I think, the concept itself
was rotten, so foundtion was shaky. And then the
rot started with Objective Resolution.
#98 Posted by anil on December 13, 2007 7:17:06 pm
Re: # 91
Tahmed Sahib:
I agree that answer is uncertain, and it is like asking about road taken. That is my point also, it is easy to romanticize, but reality is Musharraff has indeed delivered on many things.
Tahmed Sahib:
I agree that answer is uncertain, and it is like asking about road taken. That is my point also, it is easy to romanticize, but reality is Musharraff has indeed delivered on many things.
#97 Posted by krashid1961 on December 13, 2007 7:04:48 pm
Nasah:#93
Faiz was practically banished at the time of Zia and Faraz was also curbed.
Jalib died and Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi compromised.
Faiz was practically banished at the time of Zia and Faraz was also curbed.
Jalib died and Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi compromised.
#96 Posted by Eklavya on December 13, 2007 6:16:00 pm
shishapa and arjun
In its earliest days, right up to the sixties, Pakistan was a very different place than it became later. It's not for me to say which is or was better, but it was a place where Muslims lived, not where Islam thrived. Imagine India without Nehruvian socialism.
In its earliest days, right up to the sixties, Pakistan was a very different place than it became later. It's not for me to say which is or was better, but it was a place where Muslims lived, not where Islam thrived. Imagine India without Nehruvian socialism.
#95 Posted by shishapa on December 13, 2007 4:26:02 pm
Re: # 93
What? What was declarng Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims
and keeping it that way?
A progressive state/society thing?
What? What was declarng Ahmadiyas as non-Muslims
and keeping it that way?
A progressive state/society thing?
#94 Posted by arjun8 on December 13, 2007 2:39:26 pm
#93 Posted by nasah on December 13, 2007 2:10:25 pm
Pakistan was not a fundamentalist Jahiliya state before Musharraf
yes...lashkar-e-toiba, jaish-e-mohammed and the taliban are all cultural societies..
Pakistan was not a fundamentalist Jahiliya state before Musharraf
yes...lashkar-e-toiba, jaish-e-mohammed and the taliban are all cultural societies..
#93 Posted by nasah on December 13, 2007 2:10:25 pm
"This is like giving the credit of “French Revolution” to “King Louis the Fourteenth” instead of Voltaire or Roseau or acclaiming British Imperialists for ‘Quit India Movement’."(Nikhat)
Nikhat it couldn’t be said any better. This is a misplaced "Shahnama" from a supposedly progressive Firdausi to a self-serving reactionary one-man dictator.
Pakistan was not a fundamentalist Jahiliya state before Musharraf – the land of Faiz, Jalib, Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi, Ahmed Faraz – was even ahead of India intellectually in those good old days of yore.
Pakistan was far more progressive, possessed many more people with powerful intellect than it is now – today mediocrity rules – in fact mediocrity and toadiness are the king and queen in civilian politics in the army’s performance, in the arts and sciences and in international relationships -- Pakistan has been pushed behind -- during these 8 years of chamcha cultivating dadagiri promoting personalized colonial kind of whimsical Durbari rule.
Strangely to this supposedly golden era of the Progressive Pervez the only crops that grew aplenty in the planes and the valleys of Pakistan are more and longer neards -- more fundamentalist militancy, more madarassas, more sectarian killings and more suicide bombings.
None of them by any means 'progressive' or of any ‘enlightened moderation’ by any stretch of Musharrafian imagination cum hallucination.
And talking about that 'economic miracle' -- with a 15 billion dollar infusion of Uncle Sam dollars in 7 years -- with a continuing manno-salva of 500 million dollars a month of US tax payers money -- even a Pygmy of African Savannah could outperform any citbank teller like Shaukat Aziz -- thanks to the Osama bin Laden's unloading of the 9/11 shit.
Nikhat it couldn’t be said any better. This is a misplaced "Shahnama" from a supposedly progressive Firdausi to a self-serving reactionary one-man dictator.
Pakistan was not a fundamentalist Jahiliya state before Musharraf – the land of Faiz, Jalib, Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi, Ahmed Faraz – was even ahead of India intellectually in those good old days of yore.
Pakistan was far more progressive, possessed many more people with powerful intellect than it is now – today mediocrity rules – in fact mediocrity and toadiness are the king and queen in civilian politics in the army’s performance, in the arts and sciences and in international relationships -- Pakistan has been pushed behind -- during these 8 years of chamcha cultivating dadagiri promoting personalized colonial kind of whimsical Durbari rule.
Strangely to this supposedly golden era of the Progressive Pervez the only crops that grew aplenty in the planes and the valleys of Pakistan are more and longer neards -- more fundamentalist militancy, more madarassas, more sectarian killings and more suicide bombings.
None of them by any means 'progressive' or of any ‘enlightened moderation’ by any stretch of Musharrafian imagination cum hallucination.
And talking about that 'economic miracle' -- with a 15 billion dollar infusion of Uncle Sam dollars in 7 years -- with a continuing manno-salva of 500 million dollars a month of US tax payers money -- even a Pygmy of African Savannah could outperform any citbank teller like Shaukat Aziz -- thanks to the Osama bin Laden's unloading of the 9/11 shit.
#92 Posted by rf786 on December 13, 2007 12:03:28 pm
NFP,
Not so sure, tempted to agree but having difficulty understanding Mush & Co's deliberate push towards social liberalization. Events of 9/11 changed the geopolitical situation that has forced change in many Muslim countries. Gone are the days when Mohammedans were the dominant social factor in Gulf countries including Soodi Arabia, economics has become the new Almighty God. Mush simply presided over an era where China and India have emerged as the engines of growth and in turn have forced change in their regions. Add to that Uncle Sam trying to impose their political domination via Afghanistan and Iraq.
El Prezidente Musharraf can be credited with his economic policies but then again much of that credit belongs to easy liquidity and Dr Ishrat Hussein.
Not so sure, tempted to agree but having difficulty understanding Mush & Co's deliberate push towards social liberalization. Events of 9/11 changed the geopolitical situation that has forced change in many Muslim countries. Gone are the days when Mohammedans were the dominant social factor in Gulf countries including Soodi Arabia, economics has become the new Almighty God. Mush simply presided over an era where China and India have emerged as the engines of growth and in turn have forced change in their regions. Add to that Uncle Sam trying to impose their political domination via Afghanistan and Iraq.
El Prezidente Musharraf can be credited with his economic policies but then again much of that credit belongs to easy liquidity and Dr Ishrat Hussein.
#91 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 10:34:18 am
anil #79 in asking whether pakistan would have been better past 8 years with mush or with BB/NS, you make two basic mistakes:
1. You assume "other things equal", i.e. you assume the comparison is with mush vs bb/ns being within the same political system. in fact, it is mush running a dictatorship where he is clearly outside the law vs. bb/ns being within a democracy where they would have been accountable within the law.
2. Your question relates to a conjecture about the "road not taken", and as such is academic. What is important is: what is good for the future of Pakistan as of today - democracy or dictatorship, freedom or slavery?
Correcting for the above two, the answer to you question is obvious, dont you think?
1. You assume "other things equal", i.e. you assume the comparison is with mush vs bb/ns being within the same political system. in fact, it is mush running a dictatorship where he is clearly outside the law vs. bb/ns being within a democracy where they would have been accountable within the law.
2. Your question relates to a conjecture about the "road not taken", and as such is academic. What is important is: what is good for the future of Pakistan as of today - democracy or dictatorship, freedom or slavery?
Correcting for the above two, the answer to you question is obvious, dont you think?
#90 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 10:22:13 am
Nikhat #82 Your post takes apart the rubbish Nadeem Paracha has tried to promote in this article that seeks to glorify mush and berate Pakistanis. Enjoyed reading it.
#89 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 10:19:04 am
zeemax: you say "musharraf is not going to leave and no one can make him."
Mush has already left - without his wardi, he cannot order a single soldier to pick up his rifle. He as to go through the COAS (as he himself was whining about a couple of days back to the press about military "protocol"). And now time is against him - and his actions are probably now geared to saving his skin.
No doubt the "amendment" now being mushed (!!) into the constitution to allow a third term for PM indicates that mush sees BB as the best bet to being allowed to continue as president.
But then one has to ask: will BB, even if she wants, be able to compromise with mush and keep the Supreme Court disabled after getting elected? Seems highly implausible to me given the strong public resentment at the destruction of the Supreme Court by mush. We shall find out soon enough I guess.
Mush has already left - without his wardi, he cannot order a single soldier to pick up his rifle. He as to go through the COAS (as he himself was whining about a couple of days back to the press about military "protocol"). And now time is against him - and his actions are probably now geared to saving his skin.
No doubt the "amendment" now being mushed (!!) into the constitution to allow a third term for PM indicates that mush sees BB as the best bet to being allowed to continue as president.
But then one has to ask: will BB, even if she wants, be able to compromise with mush and keep the Supreme Court disabled after getting elected? Seems highly implausible to me given the strong public resentment at the destruction of the Supreme Court by mush. We shall find out soon enough I guess.
#88 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:55:45 am
Re: # 65
"wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit".
Oh thats fine. Indian have my permission to remain eternally constipated.
"wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit".
Oh thats fine. Indian have my permission to remain eternally constipated.
#87 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:53:24 am
Re: # 64 Dash_Dot
"I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement".
Why don't you try both and see which one works better for you.
"That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir".
But that is one of the biggest problem we have. We can't seem to figure out who is a "right thinking" Pakistani.
"Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan".
I am not surprised. If they believe in themselves, and do what they can, they will do better.
In Pakistan we have zillions of views pulling it in all sorts of directions. Ironically the only ones who are focussed are the extremists.
"And you are worried about what is happening in some other country".
What other country are you talking about? I am thinking about Pak and its future.
"Has Pakistan not learnt that it has not taken the thekka of the muslim world world".
????
"Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills".
It remains debatable whether he has stopped, or compounded, the rot. Some, like me, would say he (Mush) has been busy putting the last nails in the coffin. Now it will take some doing on our part to bail ourselves out.
"I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement".
Why don't you try both and see which one works better for you.
"That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir".
But that is one of the biggest problem we have. We can't seem to figure out who is a "right thinking" Pakistani.
"Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan".
I am not surprised. If they believe in themselves, and do what they can, they will do better.
In Pakistan we have zillions of views pulling it in all sorts of directions. Ironically the only ones who are focussed are the extremists.
"And you are worried about what is happening in some other country".
What other country are you talking about? I am thinking about Pak and its future.
"Has Pakistan not learnt that it has not taken the thekka of the muslim world world".
????
"Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills".
It remains debatable whether he has stopped, or compounded, the rot. Some, like me, would say he (Mush) has been busy putting the last nails in the coffin. Now it will take some doing on our part to bail ourselves out.
#86 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:34:09 am
Re: # 63
"Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion".
Yaar, I do not deny that we Pakis have many faults and shortcomings. Whether we are delusional or not, time alone will tell.
Let us leave it at that, shall we?
"Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion".
Yaar, I do not deny that we Pakis have many faults and shortcomings. Whether we are delusional or not, time alone will tell.
Let us leave it at that, shall we?
#85 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:29:54 am
Re: # 62
"You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them?".
Calm down Ranjit Sahib. I am not championing the cause of adding Kashmir to Pakistan. It is for the Kashmiris to decide what they want. Prsonally I can live with an independent Kashmir.
"Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it".
Ah ... at least I am not going to grasp any "power equation" as long as I live. You are progressing in leaps and bounds. Good for you.
"You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever".
Good or bad, the policies of Pak are for Pakistanis to discuss and change. We haven't asked for your advice on this one.
And I am certainly not dying to visit a Kashmir in bondage.
"You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them?".
Calm down Ranjit Sahib. I am not championing the cause of adding Kashmir to Pakistan. It is for the Kashmiris to decide what they want. Prsonally I can live with an independent Kashmir.
"Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it".
Ah ... at least I am not going to grasp any "power equation" as long as I live. You are progressing in leaps and bounds. Good for you.
"You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever".
Good or bad, the policies of Pak are for Pakistanis to discuss and change. We haven't asked for your advice on this one.
And I am certainly not dying to visit a Kashmir in bondage.
#84 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:21:07 am
Majumdar Sahib,
"I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details".
I agree with Zee Sahib on this one. Pak forces need to get out of FATA.
"Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?".
Pak will have to do its part to let the plebiscite go through. What's the big deal?
"(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)
I will be more than happy with that".
Good. Then we are in agreement. That is all that I had said in the first place. Just forget about normalizing the relations.
Regards.
"I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details".
I agree with Zee Sahib on this one. Pak forces need to get out of FATA.
"Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?".
Pak will have to do its part to let the plebiscite go through. What's the big deal?
"(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)
I will be more than happy with that".
Good. Then we are in agreement. That is all that I had said in the first place. Just forget about normalizing the relations.
Regards.
#82 Posted by Nikhat on December 13, 2007 7:40:13 am
I just read the article and my response to it.
Ref: “A military dictator’s cultural impositions actually gave birth to a newborn sense of democracy. Weird, but true”.
This is neither weird nor in fact true. It is not weird because all great political revolution or work of art took their first breath during dark days of depression as a reaction against injustices of tyrant rulers of their times. The cultural impositions or impositions of any other kind had always being considered as ‘Monster’ by insightful people who worked hard against that, never succumbing to the lowest level of attaching “Good” to it. This is like giving the credit of “French Revolution” to “King Louis the Fourteenth” instead of Voltaire or Roseau or acclaiming British Imperialists for ‘Quit India Movement’.
“Though Musharraf’s cultural strategy may not have engaged the common man the way Bhutto’s policies did, however, it did have a deep impact on urban, middle-class of Pakistan”
I wonder which positive cultural policies Mr. NFP has referred to. Can he be more specific please? Karachi which was ruled by the educated middle class people in good old days of seventies has gone from bad to worse, from living to dead because of the policies of first Zia and then Musharraf. Seeds of ethnic biases which were sown during Zia’s regime bloomed into giant trees in Musharraf’s period. Musharraf’s policies like his predecessors have only reinforced the polarization among the multi-cultural society of Karachi. And the middle class of Karachi had only suffered one culture, which was and is MQM’s Gunda gerdee’. I thought hard but could not find the effect of any impact deep or superficial, because of Musharraf’s cultural strategy in middle class of Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawer or Quetta… Come on NFP you tried hard but really you can do better than that. Just try to enlighten us more with clarity and specificity about Mr. Musharraf’s cultural strategies in your next ‘darbari’ appraisal.
“As one section of the middle-class youth responded with newborn religiosity, the other part blossomed in their new-found freedom, with gradual economic growth witnessed by the economy making the experience that much sweeter.”
False again; Religiosity was the outcome of eleven years of Zia’s ‘Islamization’ and sustained organized political struggle of religious parties’ esp. Jamat-e-Islami. This section of people had always been in the social picture of Pakistan. But Musharraf’s slogan of ‘moderate Islam’ (which was also a borrowed term from Bush) did succeed in fragmenting the people of Pakistan, just like any other dictator. While Zia created ethnic parties to shatter unity of Pakistan Musharraf’ policy ignited the most volatile zone, Islam for the same purpose. Never in the history of Pakistan had we seen so many sects of Islam, ‘the green turbans’, ‘the white turbans’, ‘Tableegies’ etc; their extravagant ‘Ijtimas’ (religious gatherings) and lavish religious ceremonies.
And speaking of gradual economic growth, are you kidding me? Really! If by economic growth you mean mushrooming of franchisees, ‘corporate-o-cracy’ (a term by author of ‘Economic Hit Man’), privatization of our most basic sectors (telecommunication, KESC, Medical colleges and Universities) than I could just pity your insight. Because of Musharraf’s economic policies we had witnessed the exploitation of young girls and boys who were gratified with easy money/overnight fame. They were lure in fields of modeling, TV and films or were hired as waiters and escorts in multinational chains of restaurants/hotels having no solid education, merits or real hard work. Musharraf’s economic policies generated record number of ‘Up-starts’. The urban middle class youth of today is hungry for money, glamour and power. The small minority of them who really wants to acquire education by keeping their morale’s find their dreams to get shattered by the hands of corrupt, greedy professors and teachers. The educational system has collapsed completely because of the meticulously planned strategies of establishment. Whatever political awareness is left is only seen in Punjab. Musharraf’s legacy (if there is any such thing) has nothing positive or beneficial to be remembered of and surely has no comparison with Bhutto. At least Zia has given us the celebration of Independence Day as a national event but what cultural moves Musharraf’s regime made, ‘Valentines Day’, Women’s day, Mother’s day or Basant? By the way ‘Basant had always been the colorful celebration in Punjab and it has not at all reached to the masses of Karachi, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan inspite of laborious propaganda.
There is no comparison of Bhutto’s policies to Musharraf’s .Bhutto had a clear philosophy, an ideology of its own (though unacceptable for many) but for which he struggled way before he achieved throne and he formulated his manifesto based on that principle. And Musharraf has nothing of its own, all his terms are borrowed from west like ‘soft image, ‘Moderate Muslims’ , ‘enlightened moderation’ bla bla. Musharraf is simply the abhorred puppet, a deplorable pawn for Bush’s despicable administration. Bhutto was the first ‘Awami leader’ introduced the first unisex dress ‘Awami suits’, founder of the nuclear energy plant, aspiring force behind ‘United Islamic front or the Islamic Bomb’, the craftsman behind the first constitution and what not. Bhutto’s following, his ‘Jiale’ did not belong to one ethnic group but stretched from Indus to Khyber. Aah the seventies! Those were the days of true liberalism unlike Mr. Musharraf’s phony ‘enlightened modernism’. The political awareness we are observing in youth or through electronic media today is because of those people who acquired their political maturity during seventies. Aitzaz Hassan, Asma Jehangir, executives of Geo channel like Abdul Rauf, Imran Aslam, Dr Shahid Masud, Zia Awan, Ayaz Amir, Jawaid Jabbar, Gazanfar Ali etc they all had tasted the flavor of real democracy during magical times of Bhutto. Imran Khan is the only political leader among these who attained his political maturity during present regime but then he also belonged to the same generation. The forces behind today’s political awareness had long history of struggle for social and political injustices within their small circles but internet power and booming of satellite channels sort of combined their efforts. Not only this but they have managed to spread the sense of true democracy to the poor eighties generation. The eighties generation who suffered generalized cerebral degeneration during Zia’s time is finally grabbing the meaning of civilized political movements. The eleven years of dictatorship has not wiped out the charisma of Bhutto’s five years of democratic leadership. Now this is what a real legacy is...
The time obtained by the dictators to set a good example, to create a legacy which would be cherished through ages is huge as compared to the time given to our poor elected civilian leaders but whenever Pakistani nation felt ecstasy of national pride it was incidentally during the period of civilian rule; be it the acquiring of nuclear technology, hosting of Islamic summit conference, acclaiming of fame through Pakistan TV dramas, winning of the world cup cricket title or being the first Islamic country with nuclear bomb. And trageically whenever Pakistan’s solidarity was stabbed or Pakistan was internationally disgraced, it was because of these saviors of borders, be it the ‘fall of Dhaka’, ‘the drug traffics’, the culture of Kalashnikovs, the empowering of biased ethnic groups, religious extremism or suicide bombings.
Nikhat Riaz
Ref: “A military dictator’s cultural impositions actually gave birth to a newborn sense of democracy. Weird, but true”.
This is neither weird nor in fact true. It is not weird because all great political revolution or work of art took their first breath during dark days of depression as a reaction against injustices of tyrant rulers of their times. The cultural impositions or impositions of any other kind had always being considered as ‘Monster’ by insightful people who worked hard against that, never succumbing to the lowest level of attaching “Good” to it. This is like giving the credit of “French Revolution” to “King Louis the Fourteenth” instead of Voltaire or Roseau or acclaiming British Imperialists for ‘Quit India Movement’.
“Though Musharraf’s cultural strategy may not have engaged the common man the way Bhutto’s policies did, however, it did have a deep impact on urban, middle-class of Pakistan”
I wonder which positive cultural policies Mr. NFP has referred to. Can he be more specific please? Karachi which was ruled by the educated middle class people in good old days of seventies has gone from bad to worse, from living to dead because of the policies of first Zia and then Musharraf. Seeds of ethnic biases which were sown during Zia’s regime bloomed into giant trees in Musharraf’s period. Musharraf’s policies like his predecessors have only reinforced the polarization among the multi-cultural society of Karachi. And the middle class of Karachi had only suffered one culture, which was and is MQM’s Gunda gerdee’. I thought hard but could not find the effect of any impact deep or superficial, because of Musharraf’s cultural strategy in middle class of Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawer or Quetta… Come on NFP you tried hard but really you can do better than that. Just try to enlighten us more with clarity and specificity about Mr. Musharraf’s cultural strategies in your next ‘darbari’ appraisal.
“As one section of the middle-class youth responded with newborn religiosity, the other part blossomed in their new-found freedom, with gradual economic growth witnessed by the economy making the experience that much sweeter.”
False again; Religiosity was the outcome of eleven years of Zia’s ‘Islamization’ and sustained organized political struggle of religious parties’ esp. Jamat-e-Islami. This section of people had always been in the social picture of Pakistan. But Musharraf’s slogan of ‘moderate Islam’ (which was also a borrowed term from Bush) did succeed in fragmenting the people of Pakistan, just like any other dictator. While Zia created ethnic parties to shatter unity of Pakistan Musharraf’ policy ignited the most volatile zone, Islam for the same purpose. Never in the history of Pakistan had we seen so many sects of Islam, ‘the green turbans’, ‘the white turbans’, ‘Tableegies’ etc; their extravagant ‘Ijtimas’ (religious gatherings) and lavish religious ceremonies.
And speaking of gradual economic growth, are you kidding me? Really! If by economic growth you mean mushrooming of franchisees, ‘corporate-o-cracy’ (a term by author of ‘Economic Hit Man’), privatization of our most basic sectors (telecommunication, KESC, Medical colleges and Universities) than I could just pity your insight. Because of Musharraf’s economic policies we had witnessed the exploitation of young girls and boys who were gratified with easy money/overnight fame. They were lure in fields of modeling, TV and films or were hired as waiters and escorts in multinational chains of restaurants/hotels having no solid education, merits or real hard work. Musharraf’s economic policies generated record number of ‘Up-starts’. The urban middle class youth of today is hungry for money, glamour and power. The small minority of them who really wants to acquire education by keeping their morale’s find their dreams to get shattered by the hands of corrupt, greedy professors and teachers. The educational system has collapsed completely because of the meticulously planned strategies of establishment. Whatever political awareness is left is only seen in Punjab. Musharraf’s legacy (if there is any such thing) has nothing positive or beneficial to be remembered of and surely has no comparison with Bhutto. At least Zia has given us the celebration of Independence Day as a national event but what cultural moves Musharraf’s regime made, ‘Valentines Day’, Women’s day, Mother’s day or Basant? By the way ‘Basant had always been the colorful celebration in Punjab and it has not at all reached to the masses of Karachi, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan inspite of laborious propaganda.
There is no comparison of Bhutto’s policies to Musharraf’s .Bhutto had a clear philosophy, an ideology of its own (though unacceptable for many) but for which he struggled way before he achieved throne and he formulated his manifesto based on that principle. And Musharraf has nothing of its own, all his terms are borrowed from west like ‘soft image, ‘Moderate Muslims’ , ‘enlightened moderation’ bla bla. Musharraf is simply the abhorred puppet, a deplorable pawn for Bush’s despicable administration. Bhutto was the first ‘Awami leader’ introduced the first unisex dress ‘Awami suits’, founder of the nuclear energy plant, aspiring force behind ‘United Islamic front or the Islamic Bomb’, the craftsman behind the first constitution and what not. Bhutto’s following, his ‘Jiale’ did not belong to one ethnic group but stretched from Indus to Khyber. Aah the seventies! Those were the days of true liberalism unlike Mr. Musharraf’s phony ‘enlightened modernism’. The political awareness we are observing in youth or through electronic media today is because of those people who acquired their political maturity during seventies. Aitzaz Hassan, Asma Jehangir, executives of Geo channel like Abdul Rauf, Imran Aslam, Dr Shahid Masud, Zia Awan, Ayaz Amir, Jawaid Jabbar, Gazanfar Ali etc they all had tasted the flavor of real democracy during magical times of Bhutto. Imran Khan is the only political leader among these who attained his political maturity during present regime but then he also belonged to the same generation. The forces behind today’s political awareness had long history of struggle for social and political injustices within their small circles but internet power and booming of satellite channels sort of combined their efforts. Not only this but they have managed to spread the sense of true democracy to the poor eighties generation. The eighties generation who suffered generalized cerebral degeneration during Zia’s time is finally grabbing the meaning of civilized political movements. The eleven years of dictatorship has not wiped out the charisma of Bhutto’s five years of democratic leadership. Now this is what a real legacy is...
The time obtained by the dictators to set a good example, to create a legacy which would be cherished through ages is huge as compared to the time given to our poor elected civilian leaders but whenever Pakistani nation felt ecstasy of national pride it was incidentally during the period of civilian rule; be it the acquiring of nuclear technology, hosting of Islamic summit conference, acclaiming of fame through Pakistan TV dramas, winning of the world cup cricket title or being the first Islamic country with nuclear bomb. And trageically whenever Pakistan’s solidarity was stabbed or Pakistan was internationally disgraced, it was because of these saviors of borders, be it the ‘fall of Dhaka’, ‘the drug traffics’, the culture of Kalashnikovs, the empowering of biased ethnic groups, religious extremism or suicide bombings.
Nikhat Riaz
#81 Posted by zeemax on December 13, 2007 6:38:56 am
#77 Posted by tahmed32
... refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak ... So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud ...
I wish I could share your optimism. The restriction on 3rd time PM is being lifted. All major parties are participating. Even though neither PML (N) nor PPP will form a 2/3rd majority, together they will alongwith JUI (F)/MQM/ANP.
So you can safely look forward to the scenario of the 18th amendment going through (giving legal cover to action of 3rd November) in return for PPP in the centre with BB as PM, Punjab to PML (N), NWFP/Baluchistan to JUI (F)/ANP and Sind to PPP/MQM coalition.
PML (Q) to remain in the political wilderness till another fauji arrives, and the lawyers movement (Aitezaz Ahsan) plus Imran Khan sidelined till either Musharraf leaves voluntarily or forced to leave by some unforeseen event. And the CJ? Perhaps he will form a good legal practice.
Musharraf is not going to leave and no one can make him. That reality has dawned on NS.
But a little at a time is good strategy under the circumstances. Musharraf has now become openly oppressive in the classic manner and will stoop to any lows in crushing any budding movements against him, and the military will back him all the way.
... refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak ... So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud ...
I wish I could share your optimism. The restriction on 3rd time PM is being lifted. All major parties are participating. Even though neither PML (N) nor PPP will form a 2/3rd majority, together they will alongwith JUI (F)/MQM/ANP.
So you can safely look forward to the scenario of the 18th amendment going through (giving legal cover to action of 3rd November) in return for PPP in the centre with BB as PM, Punjab to PML (N), NWFP/Baluchistan to JUI (F)/ANP and Sind to PPP/MQM coalition.
PML (Q) to remain in the political wilderness till another fauji arrives, and the lawyers movement (Aitezaz Ahsan) plus Imran Khan sidelined till either Musharraf leaves voluntarily or forced to leave by some unforeseen event. And the CJ? Perhaps he will form a good legal practice.
Musharraf is not going to leave and no one can make him. That reality has dawned on NS.
But a little at a time is good strategy under the circumstances. Musharraf has now become openly oppressive in the classic manner and will stoop to any lows in crushing any budding movements against him, and the military will back him all the way.
#80 Posted by masadi on December 13, 2007 6:06:38 am
Mateen writes "Pakistani judges have sacrificed their careers, lawyers have taken to the streets, in order to protect the rule of law in Pakistan. And Musharraf has put them behind bars..."
He is merely trying to imitate the global dictatorship of his masters, the US elite. When world decision and consensus goes against them, they merely "fire it" like Musharraf did with the judges, form their own "coalition of the willing", stacked with corrupt, rat fart countries (like Musharraf's new judges). Global dictatorship by the US elite is what defines our era, the petty dictators merely imitate their higher masters who are their lifeline....
He is merely trying to imitate the global dictatorship of his masters, the US elite. When world decision and consensus goes against them, they merely "fire it" like Musharraf did with the judges, form their own "coalition of the willing", stacked with corrupt, rat fart countries (like Musharraf's new judges). Global dictatorship by the US elite is what defines our era, the petty dictators merely imitate their higher masters who are their lifeline....
#79 Posted by anil on December 13, 2007 5:35:37 am
Re: # 41
Romair and Tahmed Sahib:
Leader is simplest definition that I have found that a Leader is "Someone who with a group does more than what the group or the person can do alone."
There is ample evidence that Musharraff has delivered. Yes, I will not deny that my conclusion and rating might be biased. Please tell me, do you honestly believe that Pakistan without Musharraff would have been better with other alternatives - Benazir and Nawaz - on all the counts you mention? If you do not believe so, then why set a higher bar for Musharraff?
Only person I think who could come forth is this Aitzaz Ahsan. He has been jailed, confined deprived etc. etc. These things in my mind groom leaders, if they can survive. Be it in Burma, in the U.S. (Martin Luther King), be it in pre-independence India. I do not know much about him, if he has respect and following.
Romair and Tahmed Sahib:
Leader is simplest definition that I have found that a Leader is "Someone who with a group does more than what the group or the person can do alone."
There is ample evidence that Musharraff has delivered. Yes, I will not deny that my conclusion and rating might be biased. Please tell me, do you honestly believe that Pakistan without Musharraff would have been better with other alternatives - Benazir and Nawaz - on all the counts you mention? If you do not believe so, then why set a higher bar for Musharraff?
Only person I think who could come forth is this Aitzaz Ahsan. He has been jailed, confined deprived etc. etc. These things in my mind groom leaders, if they can survive. Be it in Burma, in the U.S. (Martin Luther King), be it in pre-independence India. I do not know much about him, if he has respect and following.
#78 Posted by MateenMM on December 13, 2007 3:52:52 am
No stilled voices do I hear,
No forlorn faces my eyes do seek,
No slender arms bind me in warm embrace:
The ever-mourning winds of sorrow,
Sighing through chasms of dark hollows,
Blowing away misty mirth,
Setting adrift golden rays of waning sun;
Oh, Heavens! Suffuse me in your fulsome glow,
Carress me with streaks of silvery rays.....
No forlorn faces my eyes do seek,
No slender arms bind me in warm embrace:
The ever-mourning winds of sorrow,
Sighing through chasms of dark hollows,
Blowing away misty mirth,
Setting adrift golden rays of waning sun;
Oh, Heavens! Suffuse me in your fulsome glow,
Carress me with streaks of silvery rays.....
#77 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 3:47:51 am
#75 We are not talking opinions here - we are talking the brutal realities of Pakistan today: Pakistani judges have sacrificed their careers, lawyers have taken to the streets, in order to protect the rule of law in Pakistan. And Musharraf has put them behind bars. The murderers of peaceful demonstrators on May 12 roam free, while the dictator who sent armed men to kill them thinks Pakistan owes him the presidency. And these are just a few examples of the lawless behavior I mentioned.
I am very hopeful for the future - because character is what gives a nation a future. And the Pakistani nation has shown great character in refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak, dictator for life. So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud - and their name will remain mud in history.
I am very hopeful for the future - because character is what gives a nation a future. And the Pakistani nation has shown great character in refusing to allow this man to become another Hosni Mubarak, dictator for life. So, Pakistan's future is bright. It is the future of this dictator and his henchmen that is already mud - and their name will remain mud in history.
#76 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 13, 2007 3:37:38 am
Tu shakh se kiyun phuta
mein shakh se kiyun toota
Manzil hai kahan teri
aye lala e seherai
Iqbal
mein shakh se kiyun toota
Manzil hai kahan teri
aye lala e seherai
Iqbal
#75 Posted by MateenMM on December 13, 2007 3:33:19 am
#72 tahmed. Exactly why I have been a bit untactful in putting [hazy!] after your name.
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"
#74 Posted by MateenMM on December 13, 2007 3:33:01 am
#72 tahmed. Exactly why I have been a bit untactful in putting [hazy!] after your name.
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"
Why do you suppose that your 'opinion' is to be counted more than the 'opinion' of NFP, particularly if it is in sync with my [and others'] thinking??!
Be open - and hopeful for the future.....!!
"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark, unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower was born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air"
#73 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 13, 2007 3:31:56 am
Re: # 67
Dash_Dot,
Most TV Channels on news seldom discussed issues in the true perspective. Their talk shows were mostly based on day to day criticism by inviting guests from the shades in discussion. As such, they were more like discussion boards.
Perhaps one exception was Talat Hussain, who repeatedly made endeavours to take the discussions towards policy reviews but seldom succeeded. He then switched to a format in which he exclusively called analysts and scholars keeping politicians out. Though these shows created awareness, they fell on dumb ears.
Channels notwithstanding, the same divide in political parties is now applicable to mass media, judiciary and lawyers. Nusrat Javed said, ‘I have gone grey waiting for a revolution’. How right he is.
If someone has noticed, Mubbashir Luqman of Business Plus has become very vocal against government departments like land revenue and WAPDA to show criticism of the government. In fact what he is doing is to provide a substitute a la day to day travails and deflect thoughts from more serious policy matters.
I asked Beena Sarwar about the LIFAFA Culture, but she did not respond. But a chowkie who claims to be a journalist of repute laid aspersions on the credentials of people like Tammy Haq and Kamran Khan.
Dash_Dot,
Most TV Channels on news seldom discussed issues in the true perspective. Their talk shows were mostly based on day to day criticism by inviting guests from the shades in discussion. As such, they were more like discussion boards.
Perhaps one exception was Talat Hussain, who repeatedly made endeavours to take the discussions towards policy reviews but seldom succeeded. He then switched to a format in which he exclusively called analysts and scholars keeping politicians out. Though these shows created awareness, they fell on dumb ears.
Channels notwithstanding, the same divide in political parties is now applicable to mass media, judiciary and lawyers. Nusrat Javed said, ‘I have gone grey waiting for a revolution’. How right he is.
If someone has noticed, Mubbashir Luqman of Business Plus has become very vocal against government departments like land revenue and WAPDA to show criticism of the government. In fact what he is doing is to provide a substitute a la day to day travails and deflect thoughts from more serious policy matters.
I asked Beena Sarwar about the LIFAFA Culture, but she did not respond. But a chowkie who claims to be a journalist of repute laid aspersions on the credentials of people like Tammy Haq and Kamran Khan.
#72 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 3:18:37 am
#71 MateenMM: This article is in bad taste since it tries to present a lawless dictator as introducing "culture", while putting down the Pakistanis who are bravely fighting for freedom from military rule.
What do you find commendable in this writer?
What do you find commendable in this writer?
#71 Posted by MateenMM on December 13, 2007 3:10:54 am
Helllooooo, EVERYONE!
Why must we turn every post into a political 'pigwash' trough?
A fine write-up on a somewhat more beatific subject, by a commendable writer, has been turned into a silly name-calling, bad-mouthing Musharraf, fuzzy Pak-India-Kashmir'no-win/you-lose' tirade: and JELL-Os like 'masadi' [seems to be a hypochondriac!] and somewhat ruffled tahmed [hazy!], are having a field-day with their uncivility.
And, out of the hay pops 'bulleya' with his usual cynicism- dipped-in-acid, bereft of any sensible idea or statement......
Why must we turn every post into a political 'pigwash' trough?
A fine write-up on a somewhat more beatific subject, by a commendable writer, has been turned into a silly name-calling, bad-mouthing Musharraf, fuzzy Pak-India-Kashmir'no-win/you-lose' tirade: and JELL-Os like 'masadi' [seems to be a hypochondriac!] and somewhat ruffled tahmed [hazy!], are having a field-day with their uncivility.
And, out of the hay pops 'bulleya' with his usual cynicism- dipped-in-acid, bereft of any sensible idea or statement......
#70 Posted by tahmed32 on December 13, 2007 2:38:32 am
vanguard #54 " mean NFP is leaving behind AG Abdul Qayoom in bending over backwards to find a needle in haystack to praise Musharraf and which is not even a needle but some dried piece of dog shit. "
Well worth repeating.
Well worth repeating.
#69 Posted by Dash_Dot on December 13, 2007 2:21:49 am
Re: # 68 And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.
you mean taking orders from the west, and accepting them as your masters. You been smoking too much bad weed these days Majumdar, that Afghani you trade with is doing the dirty on you, mate.
You need to change your dealer......
you mean taking orders from the west, and accepting them as your masters. You been smoking too much bad weed these days Majumdar, that Afghani you trade with is doing the dirty on you, mate.
You need to change your dealer......
#68 Posted by majumdar on December 13, 2007 2:15:26 am
Dash,
Inshallah, in a generation or so there would be more Desi English speakers than English speakers anywhere else. And more English speakers than speakers of any other language in the Desh.
And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.
Regards
Inshallah, in a generation or so there would be more Desi English speakers than English speakers anywhere else. And more English speakers than speakers of any other language in the Desh.
And hopefully all these English speakers would be gainfully employed as Peons of the West rather than flying planes into skyscrapers or making as ass of themselves on chowk.
Regards
#67 Posted by Dash_Dot on December 13, 2007 2:03:35 am
Re: # 11
Ijaz, an interesting view. I have been watching PTV for sometime now, and ofcourse ARY, and GEO as well. What you say is true. However, the "liberal" component of the talks/discussions is limited. In the early days of the regime and early days of these channels the talks and discussions had the same song sheet, music sheet, and hymn sheet as the regime. Slowly they changed but essentially followed/toed the line. Even today, despite the hangamma over the banning they still follow the contours of the regime. What they lack is an element of intellectual depth. (I was a great of Moeed Pirzada's show on PTV - unfortunately the guests were an insult to Pirzada's nuanced questions and views).
This is in stark contrast to the Bangladeshi Channels. Where there a great deal of depth, LIBERALITY and PLURALITY of views. You will not find the same ruccous as on GEO/ARY etc but a great deal more civilised (perhaps???).
If at all there is a need for a revolution (cultural or otherwise), then it is to bridge this gap that one is needed. This is my opinion. I am wondering if this assessment is correct. (I am ofcourse discounting the the great Vernacular Language called English
(Please note: I hate and dislike the terms Vernacular, and Ethnic used by Desis to Describe WHAT IS THEIRS - mainstream for them. In fact For us Desis - Vernacular is English, and Ethnic is Western. This is a PoV, but hey, the world is not flat and the universe is not a sphere)
Ijaz, an interesting view. I have been watching PTV for sometime now, and ofcourse ARY, and GEO as well. What you say is true. However, the "liberal" component of the talks/discussions is limited. In the early days of the regime and early days of these channels the talks and discussions had the same song sheet, music sheet, and hymn sheet as the regime. Slowly they changed but essentially followed/toed the line. Even today, despite the hangamma over the banning they still follow the contours of the regime. What they lack is an element of intellectual depth. (I was a great of Moeed Pirzada's show on PTV - unfortunately the guests were an insult to Pirzada's nuanced questions and views).
This is in stark contrast to the Bangladeshi Channels. Where there a great deal of depth, LIBERALITY and PLURALITY of views. You will not find the same ruccous as on GEO/ARY etc but a great deal more civilised (perhaps???).
If at all there is a need for a revolution (cultural or otherwise), then it is to bridge this gap that one is needed. This is my opinion. I am wondering if this assessment is correct. (I am ofcourse discounting the the great Vernacular Language called English
(Please note: I hate and dislike the terms Vernacular, and Ethnic used by Desis to Describe WHAT IS THEIRS - mainstream for them. In fact For us Desis - Vernacular is English, and Ethnic is Western. This is a PoV, but hey, the world is not flat and the universe is not a sphere)
#66 Posted by ijaz_gul on December 13, 2007 1:30:37 am
Re: # 13
Love2love,
I come from a ghetto where I never learnt to read or write.You could see my profile to be doubly sure.
I began my comment by CULTURAL LEGACY.
My inference to his essay is implied in CULTURAL REVOLUTION. It is my inference because I come from the ghetto.
ok
Love2love,
I come from a ghetto where I never learnt to read or write.You could see my profile to be doubly sure.
I began my comment by CULTURAL LEGACY.
My inference to his essay is implied in CULTURAL REVOLUTION. It is my inference because I come from the ghetto.
ok
#65 Posted by arjun8 on December 13, 2007 1:14:26 am
#58 Posted by viqarm on December 12, 2007 11:59:22 pm
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.
There's also the minor problem that you can't do anything about it..
wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit..
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.
There's also the minor problem that you can't do anything about it..
wake up and smell the coffee...or don't...either way, indians don't give a shit..
#64 Posted by Dash_Dot on December 13, 2007 12:47:06 am
Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory
I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement.
60 years of Kashmir Banega Pakistan, and 60 years of Jihad, has not changed anything - not even a few cms on the LOC. It has almost bankrupted Pakistan 2 or 3 times (and if it were not for the Yankee Largesse (to Zia and Mush)) it would have been no better than Somalia by know. That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir.
Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan - in that it is now able to afford better
(a) health care
(b) education
(c) opportunities
to its citizens. The latest Cyclone disaster is a case in point. The recovery is quicker than before and it will keep getting better.
And you are worried about what is happening in some other country.
Has Pakistan not learnt that "it has not taken the thekka " of the muslim world world. The muslim world does not give a flying fcuk for what happens to Pakistan and Pakistanis. Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills.
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory
I do not know if I should laugh or cry at this rather naive statement.
60 years of Kashmir Banega Pakistan, and 60 years of Jihad, has not changed anything - not even a few cms on the LOC. It has almost bankrupted Pakistan 2 or 3 times (and if it were not for the Yankee Largesse (to Zia and Mush)) it would have been no better than Somalia by know. That it is heading in that direction now is something which every right thinking Pakistani must be more worried about than Kashmir.
Even Bangladesh, which was rendered a basket case because of the Pakistani policies, and it subsequent annihilation of the Bangladeshi intellectual class in 1971, is performing much better than pakistan - in that it is now able to afford better
(a) health care
(b) education
(c) opportunities
to its citizens. The latest Cyclone disaster is a case in point. The recovery is quicker than before and it will keep getting better.
And you are worried about what is happening in some other country.
Has Pakistan not learnt that "it has not taken the thekka " of the muslim world world. The muslim world does not give a flying fcuk for what happens to Pakistan and Pakistanis. Stop worrying about the world and start worrying about Pakistan. This is what Mush-e-ruff tried, and has done up to a point. I wish he continues for a few more years so that he can change the situation for the better. He has stopped the rot (not entirely, but made it more manageable) and he needs time to rectify the ills.
#63 Posted by harish_hyd on December 13, 2007 12:42:52 am
#57 by viqarm
Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?
Viqar bhai, it was Nehru's opinion and nothing more. Do you seriously think his opinion constituted an existential threat to Pakistan? But today the threat is real. America is breathing down its neck. Iran and Afghanistan are hostile to it and India is at best waiting and watching before it can take the plunge.
Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated.
Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion.
Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?
Viqar bhai, it was Nehru's opinion and nothing more. Do you seriously think his opinion constituted an existential threat to Pakistan? But today the threat is real. America is breathing down its neck. Iran and Afghanistan are hostile to it and India is at best waiting and watching before it can take the plunge.
Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated.
Again this notion that Pakistan is different by virtue of being Muslim are at best romantic ideas that have no place in the cutthroat world of realpolitik. I think folks such as Iqbal, Faiz and the others drilled such delusions through their patriotic songs among Paki minds, which are great to listen to at independence day parades and functions, but are of little value elsewhere. Pakistan has believed too seriously in such notions and embarked on reckless misadventures with almost all of its neighbors and beyond with the result that other nations think nothing of poking their noses deep into Pakistan without hurting Paki sensibilities. If Pakistan today is in such a soup, it is precisely because of the delusions of grandeur nurtured amongst its leaders and also an extent the public. I sincerely hope for Pakistan's own sake that Pakis come out of this delusion.
#62 Posted by Ranjit on December 13, 2007 12:32:09 am
Re:viqarm#58
Pakistan can barely manage to govern what it has today, let alone ask for more. NWFP and Baluchistan are war zones. Suicide bombers are killing dozens every other day. Every ethnic group hates the other. Religious sectrianism has reached absurd levels. After 60 years, you still dont have a proper system of administration with orderly transition of power - whether it be democratic or not. Supreme court judges are dismissed, elections are a farce, media gets clamped down, army is out of control, decisions require US blessings. Kya Mazaak bana rakha hai? Basically your country is just one giant farce and a laughing stock now. Its a failed state.
You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them? Even if it happens by some miracle, after two days of 'allah o akbar' the Kashmiris will realize their disasterous situation. The grass may look greener on the other side based on religious emotions but the conditions of the NWFP, Baluchistan and Sindh are a good indicator of what would happen to Kashmir.
Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it. You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever.
Pakistan can barely manage to govern what it has today, let alone ask for more. NWFP and Baluchistan are war zones. Suicide bombers are killing dozens every other day. Every ethnic group hates the other. Religious sectrianism has reached absurd levels. After 60 years, you still dont have a proper system of administration with orderly transition of power - whether it be democratic or not. Supreme court judges are dismissed, elections are a farce, media gets clamped down, army is out of control, decisions require US blessings. Kya Mazaak bana rakha hai? Basically your country is just one giant farce and a laughing stock now. Its a failed state.
You want to add Kashmir to that? What future will you offer them? Even if it happens by some miracle, after two days of 'allah o akbar' the Kashmiris will realize their disasterous situation. The grass may look greener on the other side based on religious emotions but the conditions of the NWFP, Baluchistan and Sindh are a good indicator of what would happen to Kashmir.
Its hight time that you guys grasp the power equation in the subcontinent. India is far ahead now in all aspects of life - economic, political, social, military power, cultural, you name it. You need to change your policies in that context if you want to remain competitive in any manner. That can happen by throwing out the last 60 years of rhetoric and focus on stronger economic ties so that you can also participate and benefit from India's economic growth. Politically you should focus on a EU like scenario with free movement of people and goods. At least that way you will have a chance to visit Kashmir and see its sights. Otherwise, you have no chance since India is perfectly happy in pulling ahead from Pakistan and letting the status quo go on forever.
#61 Posted by Dash_Dot on December 13, 2007 12:22:58 am
Its a question of belling the cat.
But before belling it, we need to find out
(a) the type of cat
(b) the size of the cat
(c) the nature of the cat
(d) the current status of the cat
(e) a volunteer who is willing to bell the cat (even before studying the above)
(f) a volunteer to follow (e) after the said volunteer has got mauled. (following (a)-(e)
So far musharuff has been the (e). BiBi-10% and Nawaz are now trying to edge themselves into (f)......and Tahmed32 and others are the chorus line here!
But before belling it, we need to find out
(a) the type of cat
(b) the size of the cat
(c) the nature of the cat
(d) the current status of the cat
(e) a volunteer who is willing to bell the cat (even before studying the above)
(f) a volunteer to follow (e) after the said volunteer has got mauled. (following (a)-(e)
So far musharuff has been the (e). BiBi-10% and Nawaz are now trying to edge themselves into (f)......and Tahmed32 and others are the chorus line here!
#60 Posted by majumdar on December 13, 2007 12:15:07 am
Viqarm sahib,
(do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?)
No and I wasn't referring to any either. I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details. Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?
(even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't -)
You guys have meddled in kashmir and A'stan and see where that has got you. But if you still want to meddle feel free to do so!!!
(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)
I will be more than happy with that.
Regards
(do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?)
No and I wasn't referring to any either. I was referring to Pak's occupation of FATA in violation of the agreement under which FATA acceded to Pak. Please consult Zee sahib for details. Besides UN's resolution also calls for Pak Army's withdrawl from POK, has Pak done that?
(even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't -)
You guys have meddled in kashmir and A'stan and see where that has got you. But if you still want to meddle feel free to do so!!!
(there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries.)
I will be more than happy with that.
Regards
#59 Posted by majumdar on December 13, 2007 12:09:40 am
Viqarm sahib,
(It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come)
You underestimate the resilience of Pakistan. Pakistan will not become another A'stan notwithstanding the fondest wishes of its Injun detractors and its own Islamist citizens!!!
(Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... )
I am afraid the only Pakis who are desirous of "freedom" are the Pushtoons and maybe baloch. Sindhi, Punjus and Mojos are nowhere near as desirous as you imagine them to be.
Regards
(It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come)
You underestimate the resilience of Pakistan. Pakistan will not become another A'stan notwithstanding the fondest wishes of its Injun detractors and its own Islamist citizens!!!
(Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... )
I am afraid the only Pakis who are desirous of "freedom" are the Pushtoons and maybe baloch. Sindhi, Punjus and Mojos are nowhere near as desirous as you imagine them to be.
Regards
#58 Posted by viqarm on December 12, 2007 11:59:22 pm
Re: # 56 Majumdar Sahib,
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.
I am sorry, but I honestly hope to God that Pak will never pack its bags and go home, simply because J&K is not Pak's (and India's) ancestral property.
Regarding your assertion about the right of self-determination in Pak itself, certainly it is the right of all citizens to be treated with justice. Internal differences in Pak are because of injustice but, so far, no part of the present Pak has asserted the right to self-detrmination and secession from the country. Now if it does come to that, and they are morally justified, then certainly it should be supported. In spite of repeated setbacks, I remain optimistic that sooner or later moral sense will prevail and the grievances of the various regions will be redressed.
BTW, do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?
I am sorry to say that even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't - there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries. Nothing more.
I realize that India considers J&K to be Indian territory. But that is where Pak and most Kashmiris have a minor disagreement with India. We do not accept it as Indian territory.
I am sorry, but I honestly hope to God that Pak will never pack its bags and go home, simply because J&K is not Pak's (and India's) ancestral property.
Regarding your assertion about the right of self-determination in Pak itself, certainly it is the right of all citizens to be treated with justice. Internal differences in Pak are because of injustice but, so far, no part of the present Pak has asserted the right to self-detrmination and secession from the country. Now if it does come to that, and they are morally justified, then certainly it should be supported. In spite of repeated setbacks, I remain optimistic that sooner or later moral sense will prevail and the grievances of the various regions will be redressed.
BTW, do you know of any accepted UN resolution where a part of Pak is claiming the right of slef-determination?
I am sorry to say that even if Pak meddling in Kashmir stops - and I hope it doesn't - there will, at best, be cold peace between the two countries. Nothing more.
#57 Posted by viqarm on December 12, 2007 11:40:24 pm
Re: # 52
Harish bhai,
"Yaar you are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan in those days didn't face an existential threat. India wasn't about to gobble it up - neither were there western powers breathing down its neck nor was there a dangerous threat from internal non-state actors. Pakistan today is slightly more sovereign than Puerto Rico, but that's about it".
Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?
Now it is certainly true that Pak is in an unenviable bind today, mostly of its own doing (though the ill will of our Indian and Western friends cannot be minimized). And I am not going to thump my chest and say that we will beat the odds stacked against us blah blah blah, knowing the moral caliber of our Punju lot.
But I will stick my neck out and say that we have an even chance provided we believe in ourselves and do right by all our fellow citizens.
"Yaar Pakis (most anyway) no doubt are a dignified lot, but principles alone cannot help a nation survive. All nations, howsoever powerful make compromises and the less powerful they are, the more compromises they end up making. Germany and Japan swallowed their humiliation at the hands of the allies only to emerge among the most developed nations today. There is a lesson in it for Pakistan, don't you think?".
Yaar, personally, I do not believe in mere existence and survival at whatever cost. If it be God's Will that we do not survive then so be it.
Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated. In the case of Pak, I think they will avoid outright war with any external forces as best as they can (one hopes). But if war does find its way into our courtyard anyway, then all bets are off. Don't expect the havayoons to surrender quitely. It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come; that is if some hothead on either side of the border doesn't discover the nuclear trigger first while inebriated with whiskey.
"Yaar the Afghans are born to fight - warfare is their bread and butter. A wolf with stripes painted on it will not change into a tiger. Similarly Pakis (Indians too) cannot fight indefinitely and remain unaffected because we are probably more endowed with brain than brawn. Oops, my comparison of Pakis with Indians is bound to ranke a few Pakistan...but what the heck!".
Yaar woh ek zamaanay mayN hamaaray des mayN ek khabti shaa'er hota thaa; voh kehta tha ke:
"apni millat par qayaas aqwaam'e maghrib se na kar
khaas hae tarkib mayN Qaum'e rassol'e haashmi".
Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... Sad, but what can we do?
Harish bhai,
"Yaar you are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan in those days didn't face an existential threat. India wasn't about to gobble it up - neither were there western powers breathing down its neck nor was there a dangerous threat from internal non-state actors. Pakistan today is slightly more sovereign than Puerto Rico, but that's about it".
Yaar, I think Pakistan was facing an existential threat even then. Why do you think Nehru was privately giving it six months to survive before total collapse?
Now it is certainly true that Pak is in an unenviable bind today, mostly of its own doing (though the ill will of our Indian and Western friends cannot be minimized). And I am not going to thump my chest and say that we will beat the odds stacked against us blah blah blah, knowing the moral caliber of our Punju lot.
But I will stick my neck out and say that we have an even chance provided we believe in ourselves and do right by all our fellow citizens.
"Yaar Pakis (most anyway) no doubt are a dignified lot, but principles alone cannot help a nation survive. All nations, howsoever powerful make compromises and the less powerful they are, the more compromises they end up making. Germany and Japan swallowed their humiliation at the hands of the allies only to emerge among the most developed nations today. There is a lesson in it for Pakistan, don't you think?".
Yaar, personally, I do not believe in mere existence and survival at whatever cost. If it be God's Will that we do not survive then so be it.
Germany and Japan are not muslim societies. They can live with the compromises they had to make when they were totally defeated. In the case of Pak, I think they will avoid outright war with any external forces as best as they can (one hopes). But if war does find its way into our courtyard anyway, then all bets are off. Don't expect the havayoons to surrender quitely. It will be one big burning Afghanistan right at the Indian borders for ages to come; that is if some hothead on either side of the border doesn't discover the nuclear trigger first while inebriated with whiskey.
"Yaar the Afghans are born to fight - warfare is their bread and butter. A wolf with stripes painted on it will not change into a tiger. Similarly Pakis (Indians too) cannot fight indefinitely and remain unaffected because we are probably more endowed with brain than brawn. Oops, my comparison of Pakis with Indians is bound to ranke a few Pakistan...but what the heck!".
Yaar woh ek zamaanay mayN hamaaray des mayN ek khabti shaa'er hota thaa; voh kehta tha ke:
"apni millat par qayaas aqwaam'e maghrib se na kar
khaas hae tarkib mayN Qaum'e rassol'e haashmi".
Yaar the problem is that the poor Afghans aren't the only ones afflicted with the desire for freedom at all costs ... Sad, but what can we do?
#56 Posted by majumdar on December 12, 2007 11:05:22 pm
Viqarm sahib,
(right of self-determination )
How about extending it to the people of Pakistan first? And incidentally what about Army occupation of FATA, as Zee sahib would inform you that's against the terms and conditions on which FATA acceded to Pakistan.
(right of self-determination )
How about extending it to the people of Pakistan first? And incidentally what about Army occupation of FATA, as Zee sahib would inform you that's against the terms and conditions on which FATA acceded to Pakistan.