Fundamentalism and Violence
Khalid Sohail December 10, 2007
#123 Posted by viqarm on December 15, 2007 10:41:04 pm
Re: # 118 Kamath Sahib,
"Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity".
Is there any particular religion that you couldn't include Gujrat and Bombay (1992 or 93) riots in your examples?
yeh masaa'el-e tasavvuf yeh tera bayaan Ghalib
tujhe hum vali samajhte jo na baada khwaar hota
"Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity".
Is there any particular religion that you couldn't include Gujrat and Bombay (1992 or 93) riots in your examples?
yeh masaa'el-e tasavvuf yeh tera bayaan Ghalib
tujhe hum vali samajhte jo na baada khwaar hota
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#122 Posted by viqarm on December 15, 2007 10:30:28 pm
Re: # 119 Kamath Sahib
I am amazed that in the context of the views expressed in the article, and all other comments in response to it, you found my one comment to be so insensitive.
That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. I find the severity of my comment justifiable and stand by it.
Regards.
I am amazed that in the context of the views expressed in the article, and all other comments in response to it, you found my one comment to be so insensitive.
That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. I find the severity of my comment justifiable and stand by it.
Regards.
#121 Posted by viqarm on December 15, 2007 9:29:57 pm
Re: # 120 Dr. Sohail,
I am really sorry for the suffering you had to go thru at a very young age.
My anger is precipitated by your seeming insensitivity in your article. When, as you say, you know that injustice and oppression is the root cause of extremism, why the irrelevant discussion about the various schools of opinion (by those guilty of perpetrating the oppression)? You should have had the moral courage to explain the real reasons (pain and suffering) to the audience at the conference.
My anger is compounded by the fact that you are a medical doctor. Is a doctor, of all the people, supposed to go by what every Tom, Dick and Harry (like the novices in the case of the sick elephant)is saying about the case of the patient ? Or is he/she supposed to carry out the proper examination and base his/her diagnosis on solid technical reasons.
The viewpoint in your article would be bad enough if you did not understand the real reasons for extremism. Your claim, now, that you do makes it look even worse.
If you really do believe that we will reach the ears of the "terrorists" by flaunting views such as those in your article, then be my guest. More power to you.
As far as I can see people with such views have no credibility with the extremists. What gives you the idea they will ever pay any attention to what you have to say?
The only recourse, then, seems to be what Dick Cheney recommends: kill all these people before they kill us "civilized" lot. What can I say?
Go for it!!!
I am really sorry for the suffering you had to go thru at a very young age.
My anger is precipitated by your seeming insensitivity in your article. When, as you say, you know that injustice and oppression is the root cause of extremism, why the irrelevant discussion about the various schools of opinion (by those guilty of perpetrating the oppression)? You should have had the moral courage to explain the real reasons (pain and suffering) to the audience at the conference.
My anger is compounded by the fact that you are a medical doctor. Is a doctor, of all the people, supposed to go by what every Tom, Dick and Harry (like the novices in the case of the sick elephant)is saying about the case of the patient ? Or is he/she supposed to carry out the proper examination and base his/her diagnosis on solid technical reasons.
The viewpoint in your article would be bad enough if you did not understand the real reasons for extremism. Your claim, now, that you do makes it look even worse.
If you really do believe that we will reach the ears of the "terrorists" by flaunting views such as those in your article, then be my guest. More power to you.
As far as I can see people with such views have no credibility with the extremists. What gives you the idea they will ever pay any attention to what you have to say?
The only recourse, then, seems to be what Dick Cheney recommends: kill all these people before they kill us "civilized" lot. What can I say?
Go for it!!!
#120 Posted by drsohail on December 15, 2007 9:08:35 am
Re: # 117
dear viqarm...i fully agree with you that peace cannot be lasting if it is not married to justice.
i am not sure why you sound a bit angry with me. if you want to know more about me i can share with you that i experienced suffering at the age of ten when my father, who had masters in mathematics and taught in Govt College Kohat, Pakistan, suffered a nervous breakdown. Then my mother suffered from chronic depression. Those experiences inspired me to became a doctor and then a psychiatrist to help suffering families cope with their emotional pain.
as far as the conference is concerned i arranged it in toronto and invited muslim , christian and jewish scholars to share their wisdom. i and my humanist friends paid for the expenses. we were not paid from any university, political organization or religious institution.
i did not want to share all that but i stated that to reassure you that my creative writings and arranging seminars are my voluntary acts to raise social consciousness. it is my humble attempt to create a just and peaceful world.
all the best...sohail
dear viqarm...i fully agree with you that peace cannot be lasting if it is not married to justice.
i am not sure why you sound a bit angry with me. if you want to know more about me i can share with you that i experienced suffering at the age of ten when my father, who had masters in mathematics and taught in Govt College Kohat, Pakistan, suffered a nervous breakdown. Then my mother suffered from chronic depression. Those experiences inspired me to became a doctor and then a psychiatrist to help suffering families cope with their emotional pain.
as far as the conference is concerned i arranged it in toronto and invited muslim , christian and jewish scholars to share their wisdom. i and my humanist friends paid for the expenses. we were not paid from any university, political organization or religious institution.
i did not want to share all that but i stated that to reassure you that my creative writings and arranging seminars are my voluntary acts to raise social consciousness. it is my humble attempt to create a just and peaceful world.
all the best...sohail
#119 Posted by Kamath on December 15, 2007 7:29:46 am
Re: # 117
Dear Viqram:What a insensitive statement from you,.."Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?.."!
Any good and ompassionate human being and not necessarily a physician knows and empathises with people suffereing from pain-physical and mental!.
Kamath
Dear Viqram:What a insensitive statement from you,.."Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?.."!
Any good and ompassionate human being and not necessarily a physician knows and empathises with people suffereing from pain-physical and mental!.
Kamath
#118 Posted by Kamath on December 15, 2007 7:22:57 am
Re: # 117
Viqram: I agre with you in your observation,"..I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance......" When people are pushed so low, and when they have nothing to turn to, violence comes very naturally.
Of course there ar other reasons too.
Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity.
Kamath
Viqram: I agre with you in your observation,"..I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance......" When people are pushed so low, and when they have nothing to turn to, violence comes very naturally.
Of course there ar other reasons too.
Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity.
Kamath
#117 Posted by viqarm on December 14, 2007 8:41:15 pm
Re: # 115
"dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world?".
I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance. There is certainly evidence to back both assertions.
The unmistakeable cause for strife and violence all over the world is INJUSTICE . perpetrated with overwhelming force. In the pat subjugation, unfortunately, was easier. In today's world it simply does not work.
So it should be obvious what the cure would require. Unless people who have been oppressed and deprived, humiliated, and kicked into the ground are returned their rights and their dignity there isn't a hope in hell that violence (be it against combatants or non-combatants) will ever go away. We both know it. But it is good excuse for attending free conferences and doing some sightseeing at the taxpayer's expense.
So you go to a conference where extremely concerned "experts" have been wasting decades of their own, and everyone elses's, lives trying to square a circle and somehow, anyhow,attempt to present a lie as a truth. You proudly explain the views various schools of opinion to the very people who coined all this nonsense in the first place in order to be able to perenially skirt around the real issue; and they get up and clap. Ma foi, what else were you expecting them to do? A person concerned about the effect of too much meat in his diet goes to commisserate with the buthcher! A fat load of good that is going to do.
Like a set of novices come upon an elephant
fatigued with sickness! One of them say it has a very long nose and it must have hit a rock - look it is all blodied. Another one draws attention to its legs saying they are so big and heavy they must must have worn him out. Yet another opines on the oversized belly and insists it isn't the legs but the belly.
None of them is a doctor, so the idea of medically examining the animal does not, or on purpose, cross their mind.
But you are. You have been medically trained to daignose peoples pain. That you should seek the explanation of their malady in the way they dress is unfathomable; it is criminal.
I once saw a TV program about the life of an ordinary family in China. The father was a doctor who wanted his only, seemingly reluctant, daughter to become one as well. Then one day, out of the blue, she said to her father that she had taken the entrance exam and has been accepted to the mdical school. With tears of joy and pride in his eyes, the old man exhorted his daughter:"you must treat the pain and suffering of every patient as if it is your own".
Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?
"dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world?".
I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance. There is certainly evidence to back both assertions.
The unmistakeable cause for strife and violence all over the world is INJUSTICE . perpetrated with overwhelming force. In the pat subjugation, unfortunately, was easier. In today's world it simply does not work.
So it should be obvious what the cure would require. Unless people who have been oppressed and deprived, humiliated, and kicked into the ground are returned their rights and their dignity there isn't a hope in hell that violence (be it against combatants or non-combatants) will ever go away. We both know it. But it is good excuse for attending free conferences and doing some sightseeing at the taxpayer's expense.
So you go to a conference where extremely concerned "experts" have been wasting decades of their own, and everyone elses's, lives trying to square a circle and somehow, anyhow,attempt to present a lie as a truth. You proudly explain the views various schools of opinion to the very people who coined all this nonsense in the first place in order to be able to perenially skirt around the real issue; and they get up and clap. Ma foi, what else were you expecting them to do? A person concerned about the effect of too much meat in his diet goes to commisserate with the buthcher! A fat load of good that is going to do.
Like a set of novices come upon an elephant
fatigued with sickness! One of them say it has a very long nose and it must have hit a rock - look it is all blodied. Another one draws attention to its legs saying they are so big and heavy they must must have worn him out. Yet another opines on the oversized belly and insists it isn't the legs but the belly.
None of them is a doctor, so the idea of medically examining the animal does not, or on purpose, cross their mind.
But you are. You have been medically trained to daignose peoples pain. That you should seek the explanation of their malady in the way they dress is unfathomable; it is criminal.
I once saw a TV program about the life of an ordinary family in China. The father was a doctor who wanted his only, seemingly reluctant, daughter to become one as well. Then one day, out of the blue, she said to her father that she had taken the entrance exam and has been accepted to the mdical school. With tears of joy and pride in his eyes, the old man exhorted his daughter:"you must treat the pain and suffering of every patient as if it is your own".
Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?
#116 Posted by Kamath on December 13, 2007 1:34:04 pm
Re: # 112 Posted by Arjun:
I wrrote,"..but for intense Intense lobbying....". Actually I meant ,"but for intense INDIAN lobbying.....". You rightly correctly interpreted. Sorry for the typo.
One good thing in Umrica is that if you are good at what you are doing, you are in !. It has been so for a long time. The CEO of Bell Labs. one of the most important centres for advanced research in communication in the world, located in New Jersey happens to be a Indian scientist. religion, caste, national origin does not matter. Merit counts!
Compares this to Europe, Japan or Canada, Pakistan or Malaysia !!!!
Kamath
I wrrote,"..but for intense Intense lobbying....". Actually I meant ,"but for intense INDIAN lobbying.....". You rightly correctly interpreted. Sorry for the typo.
One good thing in Umrica is that if you are good at what you are doing, you are in !. It has been so for a long time. The CEO of Bell Labs. one of the most important centres for advanced research in communication in the world, located in New Jersey happens to be a Indian scientist. religion, caste, national origin does not matter. Merit counts!
Compares this to Europe, Japan or Canada, Pakistan or Malaysia !!!!
Kamath
#115 Posted by drsohail on December 13, 2007 1:29:42 pm
Re: # 104
dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world? sohail
dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world? sohail
#114 Posted by drsohail on December 13, 2007 10:29:52 am
Re: # 113
dear viqarm...i never supported America's war in Iraq or Afghanistan rather criticized it strongly in my poems.
sincerely sohail
dear viqarm...i never supported America's war in Iraq or Afghanistan rather criticized it strongly in my poems.
sincerely sohail
#113 Posted by viqarm on December 13, 2007 9:07:16 am
Re: # 111
"...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution..."
Dr. Sohail,
Nice words, but that is what they all say. We see examples of what is practiced, not preached, throughout the Middle East today.
Those must be expensive ballots the US is using in Iraq and Afghanistan; the cost is running into trillions of dollars.
And the people there are certainly getting "educated".
As for the "evolution" it seems to be taking those countries, as well as the West, back to the stone age.
Please keep doing more of it. You just might garner a revolution ...
"...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution..."
Dr. Sohail,
Nice words, but that is what they all say. We see examples of what is practiced, not preached, throughout the Middle East today.
Those must be expensive ballots the US is using in Iraq and Afghanistan; the cost is running into trillions of dollars.
And the people there are certainly getting "educated".
As for the "evolution" it seems to be taking those countries, as well as the West, back to the stone age.
Please keep doing more of it. You just might garner a revolution ...
#112 Posted by arjun8 on December 13, 2007 6:01:03 am
#110 Posted by Kamath on December 13, 2007 5:47:38 am
It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!
Nice try...it wasn't rumoured..an article in the FT said he could be a candidate..read the articles in the NYT..shortcut wasn't even considered..not even on the list..
and all this talk about lobbying is just pakis clutching at imaginary straws..vikram pandit sold his company for 800 million $$ before he joined citigroup..let me repeat that..800 million $..
p.s. I have news for you..kathwari is from indian kashmir..yup..in paki minds, that may not be from india..but the world sees it differently..
It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!
Nice try...it wasn't rumoured..an article in the FT said he could be a candidate..read the articles in the NYT..shortcut wasn't even considered..not even on the list..
and all this talk about lobbying is just pakis clutching at imaginary straws..vikram pandit sold his company for 800 million $$ before he joined citigroup..let me repeat that..800 million $..
p.s. I have news for you..kathwari is from indian kashmir..yup..in paki minds, that may not be from india..but the world sees it differently..
#111 Posted by drsohail on December 13, 2007 6:00:14 am
Re: # 104
dear viqarm...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution...sohail
dear viqarm...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution...sohail
#110 Posted by Kamath on December 13, 2007 5:47:38 am
Re: # 107
Arjun: Farooq Kathwari - I am told is not from India but from Kashmir. It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!
Kamath
Arjun: Farooq Kathwari - I am told is not from India but from Kashmir. It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!
Kamath
#109 Posted by Kamath on December 13, 2007 5:39:36 am
Re: # 6 DrSohail:
Dear Doc: You say,� if you wish i can try that kind of language next time …�. Well, I know you are smart enough not to be a pedantic or one who resorts to bombast. It might impress some but not all.
It is a well known observation that often people use these tools to hide one’s insecurities, appeal to or heighten their vanities. No one is immune -an academic, ethicist, psychiatrist , a politician, philosopher or a physicist!
Let me not parse the words and sentences in your post here. Informed and educated men do know that myriad questions that afflict mankind- say religious fundamentalism, violence, nationalism , greed , sociopathy , personality disorders or maglomania ete. etc. can not be fully explained from accumulated knowledge of any one single discipline but can only be understood and tackled from range of explanations.
Any complex concept or thoughts can be conveyed in simple terms , but takes skills.and practice. Too much simplification can result in school boyish presentation. But then HECK,- Chowk is not a scholarly magazine, anything goes.
But let me conclude by saying there are points which I do not agree in your explanation for connection between fundamentalism and violence. Some of your views have a touch of rhetoric and history does not support it.
Kamath
Dear Doc: You say,� if you wish i can try that kind of language next time …�. Well, I know you are smart enough not to be a pedantic or one who resorts to bombast. It might impress some but not all.
It is a well known observation that often people use these tools to hide one’s insecurities, appeal to or heighten their vanities. No one is immune -an academic, ethicist, psychiatrist , a politician, philosopher or a physicist!
Let me not parse the words and sentences in your post here. Informed and educated men do know that myriad questions that afflict mankind- say religious fundamentalism, violence, nationalism , greed , sociopathy , personality disorders or maglomania ete. etc. can not be fully explained from accumulated knowledge of any one single discipline but can only be understood and tackled from range of explanations.
Any complex concept or thoughts can be conveyed in simple terms , but takes skills.and practice. Too much simplification can result in school boyish presentation. But then HECK,- Chowk is not a scholarly magazine, anything goes.
But let me conclude by saying there are points which I do not agree in your explanation for connection between fundamentalism and violence. Some of your views have a touch of rhetoric and history does not support it.
Kamath
#108 Posted by aslam644 on December 13, 2007 5:04:53 am
Re: # 106
ah well....
we can't beat them at everything.
ah well....
we can't beat them at everything.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- jayp: Re: # 55 Good muslim... I Want Jinnah's Pakistan
- jayp: Re: # 53 thanks madani... I Want Jinnah's Pakistan
- Pardesi: Breaking News for ahmedmadani... Uneven Democracy : The
- a_r_j_u_n325: #94 Posted by... The Strange Case of
- a_r_j_u_n325: #95 Posted by... The Strange Case of
- RiazHaq: Re: # 90 bhs7:... The Strange Case of
- jrabamind: Dear Parthaab, The study referred... Communicating Medical Errors
- anil: Re: # 20 Dost sahib: “Indians... Uneven Democracy : The
