Fundamentalism and Violence

Re: # 71
dear tamhed 32...i agree with you that military has used the religious extremists to justify their policies and pakistan was part of creating taliban...but the fundamentalist problem goes deeper. i was in peshawar in late 1960s and early 1970s far before afghanistan crisis. the biggest shock for me was when zulfiqar ali bhutto won elections in four areas in pakistan and lost in peshawar by 10,000 votes from Maulana Mufi mehmood. Maulana Mufti mehmood and ghulam gauz hazarvi....used to be called double ghian and double meem....used to send talibaan to people's houses with quran and ask...are you going to vote quran or bhutto?...that is how they won. and then banned alcohol and music etc...so pukhtoon culture...the tribal culture....mixed with religious zeal...is part of that culture. after 1979 the religion bacame politicized and got worse.
the question is that if 95 % of people are religious they are going to elect religious leaders. people have leaders what they deserve.
for me secularism and human rights come before democracy. but then that is my personal opinion and i am in minority.
only 20 % of the world does not believe on God and Religion...other 80% are believers so according to democracy they can have religious leaders.
even in america bush has brought religion in politics...how sad!!
sincerely
sohail

dear chaccha jee,

unfortunately you are unfortunate!

You are knee deep in nostalgia. Pakistan has moved on. We are waking up to the wonders of dictatorships. Instead of resisting resistance, we are learning to embrace it.

All good and all bad in Pakistan, is a result of a dictatorship. The democracies have added nothing, usually subtracted a lot.

The countries I had listed, were not to show that "look there are other dictators around the world", but rather, to show you immensely popular leaders that are or will become dictators. Why? Cause 4 years is just not enough!

Long live Musharraf! Musharraf for life long dictatorship! Pakistan Zindabad!

ts #66 i wish what you say about musharraf say was true - but see #71 below why the facts show the opposite: i.e. the religious extremists are a convenient bogeyman for musharraf to have.

In this, as in many other matters of fundamental national importance like the rule of law and pakstan's relations with india (where he sabotaged the peace process with kargill), he has shown that the only thing that matters to him is his inflated ego. people's lives and pakistan's integrity have meant nothing to him as long as he can cling to power. and if you still believe a word that he says - despite the fact that he has lied over and over again - then there is this wonderful lottery i can perhaps interest you in where you have a chance of winning the brooklyn bridge!! :-)

my post #70 below responds to ts #66, not ts #67 as incorrectly written.

dr sohail #67: it is true that the CJ is not a politician. But, one need not be a politician to serve the nation. and CJ has served the nation admirably in his capacity - his actions have forced the musharraf to separate himself from the uniform, thus in effect ending military dictatorship in Pakistan. and it has sent a strong message to those who were carrying out musharraf's orders to "disappear" people illegally.

As for your concerns of Pakistan dividing apart - no doubt there is a strong element of religious extremism in the frontier and the baluchistan. But remember that the taliban are a creation of the military from among a core of afghan refugees, and are not home-grown in these provinces. So, this is no grass-roots organization. These religious extremists have been allowed to flourish by musharraf as useful bogeymen to have against the west as well as against Pakistanis seeking the rule of law - this became very obvious in his handling of lal masjid.

#67 ts: so, what you are saying is, as long as there is a single country in the world with a dictator, it is OK for musharraf to be a dictator. that makes no sense, i am sorry to say.

drsohail,
I am glad you enjoyed that book. It is one of my favorites. Would love to talk about it sometimes - it is off-topic here.

By 'just war' I meant a war that you would consider morally justified.

imho,

the chief justice has no credibility. These same judges were quiet when Nawaz sharif was raping the judiciary. It was the same bogus judges that continue to support all usurptions, they remain corrupt.

The CJ is an opportunist, and the judiciary should NEVER be politicized. Which is exactly what the CJ was doing.

Shame on him. CJ ka mun kaala kar kay gaddhay pay bittha kar islamabad say lahore march karwani chahiyay :)

Re: # 64
dear tamhed 32...i agree with you that the chief justice was a great inspiration for the democratic voices in pakistan. the problem is that chief justice is not the political leader of any established political party.
pakistan from its beginning did not have a fertile soil for democracy...gradually it has moved towards theocracy in frontier province and military dictatorship at a national level...whether ayub khan or zia or musharraf...military in pakistan takes over as it is the most organized group with most power. i feel
a significant middle class
higher literacy rate
respect for human rights especially for women and minorities
and
especially the separation of the mosque and the state
are the factors that set the stage for asecular democracy.
i am afraid that pakistan might divide into two parts...
religious frontier province and balochistan
and
secular punjab and sindh
for me the most interesting political change is the alliance of right wing religious groups and left wing socialist groups in the world to fight imperialistic and colonial powers....interesting ly pakistani politics is getting part of world politics....
maybe two women...hilary in america and benazir in pakistan might decide the future.......
sincerely sohail

Dear chaccha jee and Dr. Sohail,

I am a keen and ardent supportor of the grassroots movement taking root in Pakistan to have Musharraf become president for life.

If Cuba can have Fidel
Libya can have Qaddafi
Palestine had Arafat
Venezuala can have Hugo Chavez (almost)
Bolivia can want Evo Morales

Why can Pakistan not have Musharraf as a life long dictator? Yes, I am not sugar coating anything. He would be a beloved and forward looking dictator. The results would either be prosperity or a bloody revolt that would throw out the complete elite institution! A win-win in either case.

That's why I am supporting this grassroots movement, and perhaps, so should you!

Dear chaccha jee and Dr. Sohail,

I am a keen and ardent supportor of the grassroots movement taking root in Pakistan to have Musharraf become president for life.

If Cuba can have Fidel
Libya can have Qaddafi
Palestine had Arafat
Venezuala can have Hugo Chavez (almost)
Bolivia can want Evo Morales

Why can Pakistan not have Musharraf as a life long dictator? Yes, I am not sugar coating anything. He would be a beloved and forward looking dictator. The results would either be prosperity or a bloody revolt that would throw out the complete elite institution! A win-win in either case.

That's why I am supporting this grassroots movement, and perhaps, so should you!

dr. sohail: I am inspired first and foremost by the Chief Justice - he stood up against an arrogant dictator on two issues.

First was defense of the basic right of habeas corpus for all individuals in Pakistan (which came up when the wife of one of such individuals kidnapped by musharraf's men appealed to the Supreme Court - see the movie "Missing in Pakistan" that can be googled and watched, for her story).

Second, was his defense of the basic right to elect and to remove indivdiuals from political power.

These are issues of fundamental importance for the democratic, secular and humanistic systems you rightly mention. And in the true "line of duty" (not the fraudulent one that musharraf credits himself with), the Chief Justice risked his life, sacrificed his high office (twice!!), refused to be either bullied (as Musharraf tried to do first time) or flattered (by rejecting social invitations from Musharraf once he realized this man could not be bullied).

The Chief Justice has to be one of the greatest Pakistanis. He has inspired not just thousands of brave Pakistani lawyers and media and students (every one of whom is a hero and a true soldier for Pakistan in my view), but also lawyers in other countries, and even forced our corrupt politicians to rise above themselves and talk about the rule of law.

How about you?

Re: # 62
dear tahmed 32...we are on the same page. i believe in democratic, secular and humanistic systems rather than autocratic, dictatorial and totalitarian systems. at the same time i also hope that children have good role models in their parents and teachers so that they learn to follow their good conscience even if they have to offer sacrifices rather than bad conscience....to have short term goals based on greed. as a human species in 21st century we are lacking positive role models in the homes and inspiring leaders in the communities...we have more politicians than statesmen. someone stated the difference in these words
...a politician thinks of the next election...a statesman thinks of the next generation.
since you mentioned pakistani politics which political leader inspires you and why?
. sincerely sohail

dr. sohail: I agree with you that the current status is unstable - arnold toynbee, as far back in the 1940's i think, had pointed to this great danger whereby humans have developed the technology to wipe itself off the face of the earth on the one hand while human emotions like anger and fear are rooted in our animal past. this is a dangerous mixure indeed!! some people have even theorized that we may already be on the brink of extinction - and they point to the lack of signs of any life in the universe that has reached a technology capable of traversing the stars and allowing them to make us aware of their presence. This last is obviously highly speculative, but nevertheless a useful warning that we may be on "the clattering train" (the poem foreboding disaster that churchill referred to in parliament in the days before WWII) at this stage.

To my mind the best bet we have against this is democracies and the rule of law. democracies dont fight because politicians who have to run for elections have to act more responsibly than egotistical dictators (and pakistan has been cursed with more than one such scoundrel).

So - the very existence of mankind may depend on whether dictatorships or law-abiding democracies prevail. And the current struggle for the rule of law in Pakistan thus becomes a major battle in this struggle.

I personally am a lot more optimistic that you are i think - the information oeconomy today, where cooperation between firms is emerging as the new paradigm rather than competition as was true in the industrial economy certainly favors the rule of law. Also, efforts are already underway in case of US, China, Japan and EU and perhaps India at some stage to colonize the moon, mars and to mine the asteroid bel - so there is plenty of elbow room in the solar system, and hopefully that will also promote the principle of cooperation not competition. There is enough to go around

Long post. But hope it makes some sense. Cheers. :-)

Re: # 58
Dear Khurram...Yes I did order it and read it a while ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Paul Tillich is a wonderful philosopher with prodound insights in human condition. sincerely sohail

#51 Posted by szaman on December 11, 2007 7:15:24 am


THIS IS FOR MASADI


US elite made the saudis do that.