Fundamentalism and Violence

Re: # 118 Kamath Sahib,
"Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity".

Is there any particular religion that you couldn't include Gujrat and Bombay (1992 or 93) riots in your examples?

yeh masaa'el-e tasavvuf yeh tera bayaan Ghalib
tujhe hum vali samajhte jo na baada khwaar hota

Re: # 119 Kamath Sahib
I am amazed that in the context of the views expressed in the article, and all other comments in response to it, you found my one comment to be so insensitive.

That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. I find the severity of my comment justifiable and stand by it.

Regards.

Re: # 120 Dr. Sohail,
I am really sorry for the suffering you had to go thru at a very young age.

My anger is precipitated by your seeming insensitivity in your article. When, as you say, you know that injustice and oppression is the root cause of extremism, why the irrelevant discussion about the various schools of opinion (by those guilty of perpetrating the oppression)? You should have had the moral courage to explain the real reasons (pain and suffering) to the audience at the conference.

My anger is compounded by the fact that you are a medical doctor. Is a doctor, of all the people, supposed to go by what every Tom, Dick and Harry (like the novices in the case of the sick elephant)is saying about the case of the patient ? Or is he/she supposed to carry out the proper examination and base his/her diagnosis on solid technical reasons.

The viewpoint in your article would be bad enough if you did not understand the real reasons for extremism. Your claim, now, that you do makes it look even worse.

If you really do believe that we will reach the ears of the "terrorists" by flaunting views such as those in your article, then be my guest. More power to you.

As far as I can see people with such views have no credibility with the extremists. What gives you the idea they will ever pay any attention to what you have to say?

The only recourse, then, seems to be what Dick Cheney recommends: kill all these people before they kill us "civilized" lot. What can I say?

Go for it!!!

Re: # 117
dear viqarm...i fully agree with you that peace cannot be lasting if it is not married to justice.
i am not sure why you sound a bit angry with me. if you want to know more about me i can share with you that i experienced suffering at the age of ten when my father, who had masters in mathematics and taught in Govt College Kohat, Pakistan, suffered a nervous breakdown. Then my mother suffered from chronic depression. Those experiences inspired me to became a doctor and then a psychiatrist to help suffering families cope with their emotional pain.
as far as the conference is concerned i arranged it in toronto and invited muslim , christian and jewish scholars to share their wisdom. i and my humanist friends paid for the expenses. we were not paid from any university, political organization or religious institution.
i did not want to share all that but i stated that to reassure you that my creative writings and arranging seminars are my voluntary acts to raise social consciousness. it is my humble attempt to create a just and peaceful world.
all the best...sohail

Re: # 117
Dear Viqram:What a insensitive statement from you,.."Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?.."!

Any good and ompassionate human being and not necessarily a physician knows and empathises with people suffereing from pain-physical and mental!.
Kamath

Re: # 117
Viqram: I agre with you in your observation,"..I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance......" When people are pushed so low, and when they have nothing to turn to, violence comes very naturally.

Of course there ar other reasons too.

Bombs in Algeria killing their own brethren, bombing in Madrid and London or Twin Towers in New York,bombing in Mubai are definitely motivated by religious stupidity.

Kamath

Re: # 115
"dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world?".

I am fully convinced that people resort to extremism when they are in utter despair of having any other rational recourse to get redress. It can happen to any person of any religion, even of any economic circumstance. There is certainly evidence to back both assertions.

The unmistakeable cause for strife and violence all over the world is INJUSTICE . perpetrated with overwhelming force. In the pat subjugation, unfortunately, was easier. In today's world it simply does not work.

So it should be obvious what the cure would require. Unless people who have been oppressed and deprived, humiliated, and kicked into the ground are returned their rights and their dignity there isn't a hope in hell that violence (be it against combatants or non-combatants) will ever go away. We both know it. But it is good excuse for attending free conferences and doing some sightseeing at the taxpayer's expense.

So you go to a conference where extremely concerned "experts" have been wasting decades of their own, and everyone elses's, lives trying to square a circle and somehow, anyhow,attempt to present a lie as a truth. You proudly explain the views various schools of opinion to the very people who coined all this nonsense in the first place in order to be able to perenially skirt around the real issue; and they get up and clap. Ma foi, what else were you expecting them to do? A person concerned about the effect of too much meat in his diet goes to commisserate with the buthcher! A fat load of good that is going to do.

Like a set of novices come upon an elephant
fatigued with sickness! One of them say it has a very long nose and it must have hit a rock - look it is all blodied. Another one draws attention to its legs saying they are so big and heavy they must must have worn him out. Yet another opines on the oversized belly and insists it isn't the legs but the belly.

None of them is a doctor, so the idea of medically examining the animal does not, or on purpose, cross their mind.

But you are. You have been medically trained to daignose peoples pain. That you should seek the explanation of their malady in the way they dress is unfathomable; it is criminal.

I once saw a TV program about the life of an ordinary family in China. The father was a doctor who wanted his only, seemingly reluctant, daughter to become one as well. Then one day, out of the blue, she said to her father that she had taken the entrance exam and has been accepted to the mdical school. With tears of joy and pride in his eyes, the old man exhorted his daughter:"you must treat the pain and suffering of every patient as if it is your own".

Do you know about pain and suffering, Dr. Sohail?

Re: # 112 Posted by Arjun:

I wrrote,"..but for intense Intense lobbying....". Actually I meant ,"but for intense INDIAN lobbying.....". You rightly correctly interpreted. Sorry for the typo.

One good thing in Umrica is that if you are good at what you are doing, you are in !. It has been so for a long time. The CEO of Bell Labs. one of the most important centres for advanced research in communication in the world, located in New Jersey happens to be a Indian scientist. religion, caste, national origin does not matter. Merit counts!

Compares this to Europe, Japan or Canada, Pakistan or Malaysia !!!!

Kamath

Re: # 104
dear viqarm...share with me what would you like to see happening to create a peaceful world? sohail

Re: # 113
dear viqarm...i never supported America's war in Iraq or Afghanistan rather criticized it strongly in my poems.
sincerely sohail

Re: # 111
"...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution..."

Dr. Sohail,
Nice words, but that is what they all say. We see examples of what is practiced, not preached, throughout the Middle East today.

Those must be expensive ballots the US is using in Iraq and Afghanistan; the cost is running into trillions of dollars.

And the people there are certainly getting "educated".

As for the "evolution" it seems to be taking those countries, as well as the West, back to the stone age.

Please keep doing more of it. You just might garner a revolution ...

#110 Posted by Kamath on December 13, 2007 5:47:38 am


It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!


Nice try...it wasn't rumoured..an article in the FT said he could be a candidate..read the articles in the NYT..shortcut wasn't even considered..not even on the list..

and all this talk about lobbying is just pakis clutching at imaginary straws..vikram pandit sold his company for 800 million $$ before he joined citigroup..let me repeat that..800 million $..

p.s. I have news for you..kathwari is from indian kashmir..yup..in paki minds, that may not be from india..but the world sees it differently..

Re: # 104
dear viqarm...the difference is that i believe in education not indoctrination...ballots not bullets....evolution not revolution...sohail

Re: # 107
Arjun: Farooq Kathwari - I am told is not from India but from Kashmir. It is also rumoured that the choice for CEO-ship of Citigroup would have gone to Mr. Aziz -former Pakistani Prime Minister under General Musharraf but for intense Intense lobbying. So Vikram Pandit won!

Kamath

Re: # 6 DrSohail:
Dear Doc: You say,” if you wish i can try that kind of language next time …”. Well, I know you are smart enough not to be a pedantic or one who resorts to bombast. It might impress some but not all.

It is a well known observation that often people use these tools to hide one’s insecurities, appeal to or heighten their vanities. No one is immune -an academic, ethicist, psychiatrist , a politician, philosopher or a physicist!

Let me not parse the words and sentences in your post here. Informed and educated men do know that myriad questions that afflict mankind- say religious fundamentalism, violence, nationalism , greed , sociopathy , personality disorders or maglomania ete. etc. can not be fully explained from accumulated knowledge of any one single discipline but can only be understood and tackled from range of explanations.

Any complex concept or thoughts can be conveyed in simple terms , but takes skills.and practice. Too much simplification can result in school boyish presentation. But then HECK,- Chowk is not a scholarly magazine, anything goes.

But let me conclude by saying there are points which I do not agree in your explanation for connection between fundamentalism and violence. Some of your views have a touch of rhetoric and history does not support it.

Kamath

Re: # 106
ah well....
we can't beat them at everything.

awww...

#105 Posted by aslam644 on December 13, 2007 4:05:11 am

Did you check out the new york times list of CEOs of major corporation who were born abroad? you'll bee sooo disappointed...

of course, in the UK, you can always check out the richest asian list...

Times list of top ten future lawyers
And two of them are paki-muslim females surprisingly no indian or chinese in the list.

Arjun must be disappointed


Future stars of the Bar
Who are the Pannicks and Sumptions of the future? Meet ten barristers of less than ten years call who may have what it takes
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2524504.ece

Re: # 95 drsohail
It is touching to hear that you both believe in secular humanistic democracy. You have it in the little corner of the world where you reside. Why do you want it for whole world?

You want to do exactly what the Islamic extremists want to do. Now if they want Islam for the whole world, you call them fundamentalists and other nice names. Do you think it would be fair to consider people like yourself to be secular extremists?

#51 Posted by szaman on December 11, 2007 7:15:24 am
THIS IS FOR MASADI


Lashing the victim"

This is the best these fools can muster, copy pastes about Saudi Arabia as if I am a spokesperson for the Saudi government, with whom the US elite have greater sway than all Muslim leaders of Muslim countries put together but tolerate BS in the name of Islam because it serves their mutual perversions.

Have brains enough to counter my arguments with arguments rather than reduce your brain power to cheap clicks of copy pastes that mean nothing whatsoever. As we discuss rape let us also talk about the "rape culture" in the US, the all American crime where around 1 million women are raped yearly, with rape having the lowest conviction rate of any major crime....So before you copy paste again tell that spineless fool, Sohail who writes articles at the level of an eighth grader with zero thought involved, that instead of banning me here try to answer my claims. But I doubt he has either the brains or the morals to do that

Re: # 100

"It is fought in your homeland,...."

Why shouold one fight the agressor only on your own home.that is plain stupidity......

9/11 was rightly the attack on your own home...and US justified to invade those who were hiding the agressors......

India was stupid that it did not fight the Pakistani aggression on kargil in Pakistani land...... but .. as they say - your karmas would catch up soon..........your own aggressor General attacked the Jehadi-supporting Paki intelligentsia and Awaam and enslaved them....good for you....surely the karmas do catch up...........jaisa karega vaisa bharega.......!!

#93 Posted by arjun8 on December 12, 2007 8:02:58 am

I should have added UK is different than rest of Europe, it’s been said London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world, plus equality is taken very seriously in the UK, any employer or organisation found guilty of discrimination on the basis of race or religion is prosecuted.

BTW Chinese and Indians are doing better than white brits but, Pakistani and bangladeshis are streaking ahead as well. The figures for Pakistani school leavers are that 38% go onto university, the target is 50% in next couple of years.

and let me knock out the century here by stating that the only just war is when the aggressor invades your home, and you have to protect your people.

1. A just war is in self defense (not pre-emptive).
2. It is fought in your homeland, for you are the defender.

hope this helps :)

Re: # 97
dear khurram...your question of 'just war' is hard to answer in a few words. there was a time i blieved in 'just war' even 'holy war' but i do not anymore...i had written an article
killing in the name of god
after sep 11 tragedy and it was published in Canadian Humanist magazine. if you are interested send me your email address again and i will send it to you.
sincerely
sohail

I wonder why dr. sohail got all defensive about belonging to a Waffle eating Smiling Satanists (Waffle-SS)?

hmmm....where there is a smoke is there a fire?

*smiles*

and with mucho respect
Category6 / ThinkingStorm

drsohail,
We agree that democracy is preferable to autocracy - whether religious or secular.
We agree that democratic majorities should not be able to violate basic human rights of minorities.
We disagree on whether democratic majorities can legislate laws based on their religious beliefs.

I am sure cat6 was joking.

PS. what about my 'just war' question?

Paki Muslim Father strangled his daughter because she refused to wear Hijab. MOtheFukka Islamist.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\12\12\story_12-1 2-2007_pg7_9

Re: # 90
dear tahmed 32...so we come to an agreement...we both do not believe in theocracy and would like to see secular humanistic democracy in the world...both are optimistic...one more than the other...smiles...
thank you for sharing your thoughts. it made it all worthwhile...sohail
ps..can you tell me the background of your name tahmed 32?

Re: # 92
dear category...sex...you have a good sense of black humour...since i have never been called a 'satanist'..i was a bit puzzled. there were a few chowkies who did not like my secular philosophy but i did not respond to their letters. you like to be smart alecky...i can accept that. you like a little bit of drama..or melodrama...have fun.
affectionately sohail

#86 Posted by aslam644 on December 12, 2007 12:47:32 am

In your own country, the united kingdom, non-muslim minorities are doing quite well..hindooos and chinese for example. how do you explain that?

Re: # 89

Dear Dr. Sohail,

Category6 is actually thinking storm.

So you probably could not tell that the tone of the interact was all a big joke. I mean, who in thier right mind would think of a "smiling satanist"?

Please examine the following:
[Dr. Sohail is working in reverse. He was a muslim who was hellbent on promoting Islam, then he decided to enjoy the jolly life. He quit Islam and became a Satanist, a devious practice which is areligious, and the adherents are taught extensive mind control and smiling techniques.

So there you are. That/'s the whole truth.

smiles.]

I was just kidding and being smart alecky again, apologies if I offended :)

Re: # 88
dear khurram...no i do not have a problem if majority of the people choose a religious person who is respectful of human rights of all citizens....including minorities...
women, blacks, gays, lesbians, other religious sects and secular minorities.
an example of such a person was Jimmy Carter of America. he was a Christian but he kept his religion private. That is why now he is critical of Bush as Bush brings his Christianity in the White House. So it is as dependent on the person as on the Constitution and the Laws of the land in which all human beings have equal rights and privileges. Have we come to a mutual agreement now? sincerely sohail
ps..what did you think of category 6's comments about my philosophy?

#87 Dr. Sohail: I dont believe in theocracy either, which is merely another form of dictatorship. Nor do I think even the most fanatical maulvi really cares whether or not you believe in God - all this rubbish about shariah and islamic laws is merely maulvis trying to elbow their way into political power. It is as fake as the talk about "Supreme National Interest" that musharraf used to fake his way into political power.

And the fact is that no one, other than the genuinely retarded, is really fooled by these clowns - maulvis or musharraf.

That is why democracy is so important - people vote for their self-interest. And even if they end up choosing whom they consider to be the lesser of two evils (and individuals seeking political power are generally less than inspiring) - checks and balances limit the damage they can do in a democracy.

Re: # 78
dear category 6...i do not think you are fair to my philosophy and lifestyle. let me share the essence of my journey. i grew up in a muslim family and followed that tradition as a muslim but when i grew older i realized that i am a muslim because i was born in a muslim family and community. i wondered what would have happened if i was born in a hindu, christian, jewish or socialist family. gradually i became a secular humanist and now i am of the opinion that as a human being i have inherited all the religious, spiritual and secular traditions. now i respect followers of all traditions and i hope they respect my philosophy.
i hope i have clarified my philosophy. the final goal of all of us is to become fully human individually and collectively so that we can reduce human suffering and take humanity to the next stage of human evolution where we can find peace in our hearts and harmony with other human beings. in my day to day life as a psychotherapist i help those people who suffer from emotional problems and try my best to relieve their suffering so that they can lead a healthy, happy and peaceful life. do you call that person a humanist or a satanist? sincerely sohail

So, you don't have a problem with,
".....if 95 % of people are religious they are going to elect religious leaders" as long as basic human rights are protected by constitution?
Or would you rather wait until they turn 'humanist' before giving them democracy?

Re: # 77
dear tahmed 32 and khurram...i never said i believe in military dictatorship. i am very much in favour of democracy but i do not agree with theocracy. i would like to keep religion private and have the state following secular laws...secular that has freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion...so that nonbelievers have the same rights as believers.
sincerely sohail

Islamic fundamentalism, obscurantism are problems in certain ghettoes in Europe but, far more overriding issues are of xenophobia, racism, discrimination.

The evidence from north America is that if you give minorities equal opportunities in jobs, housing, education etc, they tend to integrate, assimilate and inter-marry into the mainstream, just as the jews have done in the US.

Probably that’s asking too much of a continent that kept jews in the ghettoes for centuries and finally annihilated them in gas chambers.

Rashid mian,

(Most interesting thing is Awam will again choose these people who have emptied the cofers during their stint in power. Leaving the people high and dry. )

All I can say is that the best thing under the circumstance is to keep fighting for a better alternative and fight for strengthening institutions which will act as a check on these kleptocrats. Btw, if it is of any satisfaction to you, politicos on our side of the border are (by and large) as big time crooks as yours. I guess we will have to grin and bear it in the meanwhile.

Regards

Majumdar: Most interesting thing is Awam will again choose these people who have emptied the cofers during their stint in power. Leaving the people high and dry.

Laughing duo:
Benazir and Nawaz Sharif will participate in elections.
benazir is firing on the shoulder of Awam.
Nawaz Sharif is firing on the shoulder of judges.
The main beneficiary of the exercise will as usual be swiss banks and properties in middle east.

Rashid mian,

What is interesting about the list, if you could elaborate please for the benefit of us Injuns?

Regards

Re: # 78

"hen he decided to enjoy the jolly life......."

No way.......he decided not to have a jolly good life in the Jannah with the 72 houries!! That is actually a hell of a sacrifice!!!

For the interest of all.
Pakistan rich list. Top ten is interesting.

1 - Mian Muhammad Mansha Yaha Pakistan
Ranking: 1 Worth: £1.25b ($2.5billion)Industry: Businessman

2 - Asif Ali Zardari Pakistan
Ranking: 2 Worth: £900m ($1.8billion) Industry: Politics

3 - Sir Anwar Pervaiz UK
Ranking: 3 Worth: £750m ($1.5billion) Industry: Businessman

4 - Nawaz Sharif & Shahbaz Sharif family Saudi Arabia/Pakistan
Ranking: 4 Worth: £700m ($1.4billion) Industry: Politics/Businessman

5 - Saddaruddin Hashwani Pakistan
Ranking: 5 Worth: £550m ($1.1billion) Industry: Businessman

6 - Nasir Schon & family U.A.E/Pakistan
Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

7 - Abdul Razzaq Yakoub & family U.A.E
Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

8 - Rafiq Habib & Rasheed Habib Pakistan
Ranking: 7 Worth: £450m ($900) Industry: Businessman

9 - Tariq Saigol & Nasim Saigol Pakistan
Ranking: 8 Worth: £425m ($850) Industry: Businessman

10 - Dewan Yousaf Farooqui Pakistan
Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

Shareef Brothers are not participating.
Extremely Shareef Brothers are participating.
After election these extremely shareef will leave the seat for shareef brothers.
Also Bhai Bahan will join hands and lower cadre workers will as usual wait for a better time to come.
The promised prosperity which is siphoned to Banks in switzerland.

Khurram,

Dr.Sohail is an infidel, an athiest, a religion hater. If he weren't smiling so much, he would be a satanist.

Did you not know that?

Don't be fooled by the Arabic sounding name. He is a pagan through and through. BTW, Sohail in the prophet's time, was also a pagan, a jahilliya, a kafir. He was hellbent on destroying Islam. Later, he came to his senses and accepted Islam.

Dr. Sohail is working in reverse. He was a muslim who was hellbent on promoting Islam, then he decided to enjoy the jolly life. He quit Islam and became a Satanist, a devious practice which is areligious, and the adherents are taught extensive mind control and smiling techniques.

So there you are. That/'s the whole truth.

smiles.

(ThinkingStorm)

drsohail #75 you say that human rights and secularism come before democracy.

for the sake of argument, let us assume that this is true - the fact is that musharraf was trampling over that most fundamental of basic rights - the right to due process before law. And that is where the Chief Justice took a stand on behalf of basic rights. as for secularism - the fact is that lal masjid maulvis became the de facto law givers and the de facto law police in Islamabad, under musharraf's nose.

and the above are not isolated instances - incljuding musharraf's tilting elections in favor of maulvis (by permitting their rubber stamp madrassah degress to be accepted as BA), exiling mainstream party leaders while making deals with mma, and so on.

So - musharraf's dictatorship was taking Pakistan away from secularism and away from human rights. and before him was Zia..who was the very father of terrorism and who flogged journalists in public (and stopped only when he realized that this was not cowing down the journalists and instead building up public resentment against them).


As for your concern of mufti mahmood - NWFP did not become a taliban-like state after he came to power. he was constrained by the constitution, like all parties and all indivdiuals are. And not just Pakistan. Democracies often have religious parties coming to power - BJP in India, the current government in Turkey, the Christian Democratic Union in Germany, not to mention the neo-cons in the US. And they have been forced to stay within the constitution. So, i think your fears of the people being allowed to vote in NWFP are not justified.

What you have to fear is military dictatorships. Before them, nothing is sacred - except their own obsession with power and glory.

Re #75, drsohail,

What are you saying here? That religious people don't deserve democracy?

Re: # 71
dear tamhed 32...i agree with you that military has used the religious extremists to justify their policies and pakistan was part of creating taliban...but the fundamentalist problem goes deeper. i was in peshawar in late 1960s and early 1970s far before afghanistan crisis. the biggest shock for me was when zulfiqar ali bhutto won elections in four areas in pakistan and lost in peshawar by 10,000 votes from Maulana Mufi mehmood. Maulana Mufti mehmood and ghulam gauz hazarvi....used to be called double ghian and double meem....used to send talibaan to people's houses with quran and ask...are you going to vote quran or bhutto?...that is how they won. and then banned alcohol and music etc...so pukhtoon culture...the tribal culture....mixed with religious zeal...is part of that culture. after 1979 the religion bacame politicized and got worse.
the question is that if 95 % of people are religious they are going to elect religious leaders. people have leaders what they deserve.
for me secularism and human rights come before democracy. but then that is my personal opinion and i am in minority.
only 20 % of the world does not believe on God and Religion...other 80% are believers so according to democracy they can have religious leaders.
even in america bush has brought religion in politics...how sad!!
sincerely
sohail

dear chaccha jee,

unfortunately you are unfortunate!

You are knee deep in nostalgia. Pakistan has moved on. We are waking up to the wonders of dictatorships. Instead of resisting resistance, we are learning to embrace it.

All good and all bad in Pakistan, is a result of a dictatorship. The democracies have added nothing, usually subtracted a lot.

The countries I had listed, were not to show that "look there are other dictators around the world", but rather, to show you immensely popular leaders that are or will become dictators. Why? Cause 4 years is just not enough!

Long live Musharraf! Musharraf for life long dictatorship! Pakistan Zindabad!

ts #66 i wish what you say about musharraf say was true - but see #71 below why the facts show the opposite: i.e. the religious extremists are a convenient bogeyman for musharraf to have.

In this, as in many other matters of fundamental national importance like the rule of law and pakstan's relations with india (where he sabotaged the peace process with kargill), he has shown that the only thing that matters to him is his inflated ego. people's lives and pakistan's integrity have meant nothing to him as long as he can cling to power. and if you still believe a word that he says - despite the fact that he has lied over and over again - then there is this wonderful lottery i can perhaps interest you in where you have a chance of winning the brooklyn bridge!! :-)

my post #70 below responds to ts #66, not ts #67 as incorrectly written.

dr sohail #67: it is true that the CJ is not a politician. But, one need not be a politician to serve the nation. and CJ has served the nation admirably in his capacity - his actions have forced the musharraf to separate himself from the uniform, thus in effect ending military dictatorship in Pakistan. and it has sent a strong message to those who were carrying out musharraf's orders to "disappear" people illegally.

As for your concerns of Pakistan dividing apart - no doubt there is a strong element of religious extremism in the frontier and the baluchistan. But remember that the taliban are a creation of the military from among a core of afghan refugees, and are not home-grown in these provinces. So, this is no grass-roots organization. These religious extremists have been allowed to flourish by musharraf as useful bogeymen to have against the west as well as against Pakistanis seeking the rule of law - this became very obvious in his handling of lal masjid.

#67 ts: so, what you are saying is, as long as there is a single country in the world with a dictator, it is OK for musharraf to be a dictator. that makes no sense, i am sorry to say.

drsohail,
I am glad you enjoyed that book. It is one of my favorites. Would love to talk about it sometimes - it is off-topic here.

By 'just war' I meant a war that you would consider morally justified.

imho,

the chief justice has no credibility. These same judges were quiet when Nawaz sharif was raping the judiciary. It was the same bogus judges that continue to support all usurptions, they remain corrupt.

The CJ is an opportunist, and the judiciary should NEVER be politicized. Which is exactly what the CJ was doing.

Shame on him. CJ ka mun kaala kar kay gaddhay pay bittha kar islamabad say lahore march karwani chahiyay :)

Re: # 64
dear tamhed 32...i agree with you that the chief justice was a great inspiration for the democratic voices in pakistan. the problem is that chief justice is not the political leader of any established political party.
pakistan from its beginning did not have a fertile soil for democracy...gradually it has moved towards theocracy in frontier province and military dictatorship at a national level...whether ayub khan or zia or musharraf...military in pakistan takes over as it is the most organized group with most power. i feel
a significant middle class
higher literacy rate
respect for human rights especially for women and minorities
and
especially the separation of the mosque and the state
are the factors that set the stage for asecular democracy.
i am afraid that pakistan might divide into two parts...
religious frontier province and balochistan
and
secular punjab and sindh
for me the most interesting political change is the alliance of right wing religious groups and left wing socialist groups in the world to fight imperialistic and colonial powers....interesting ly pakistani politics is getting part of world politics....
maybe two women...hilary in america and benazir in pakistan might decide the future.......
sincerely sohail

Dear chaccha jee and Dr. Sohail,

I am a keen and ardent supportor of the grassroots movement taking root in Pakistan to have Musharraf become president for life.

If Cuba can have Fidel
Libya can have Qaddafi
Palestine had Arafat
Venezuala can have Hugo Chavez (almost)
Bolivia can want Evo Morales

Why can Pakistan not have Musharraf as a life long dictator? Yes, I am not sugar coating anything. He would be a beloved and forward looking dictator. The results would either be prosperity or a bloody revolt that would throw out the complete elite institution! A win-win in either case.

That's why I am supporting this grassroots movement, and perhaps, so should you!

Dear chaccha jee and Dr. Sohail,

I am a keen and ardent supportor of the grassroots movement taking root in Pakistan to have Musharraf become president for life.

If Cuba can have Fidel
Libya can have Qaddafi
Palestine had Arafat
Venezuala can have Hugo Chavez (almost)
Bolivia can want Evo Morales

Why can Pakistan not have Musharraf as a life long dictator? Yes, I am not sugar coating anything. He would be a beloved and forward looking dictator. The results would either be prosperity or a bloody revolt that would throw out the complete elite institution! A win-win in either case.

That's why I am supporting this grassroots movement, and perhaps, so should you!

dr. sohail: I am inspired first and foremost by the Chief Justice - he stood up against an arrogant dictator on two issues.

First was defense of the basic right of habeas corpus for all individuals in Pakistan (which came up when the wife of one of such individuals kidnapped by musharraf's men appealed to the Supreme Court - see the movie "Missing in Pakistan" that can be googled and watched, for her story).

Second, was his defense of the basic right to elect and to remove indivdiuals from political power.

These are issues of fundamental importance for the democratic, secular and humanistic systems you rightly mention. And in the true "line of duty" (not the fraudulent one that musharraf credits himself with), the Chief Justice risked his life, sacrificed his high office (twice!!), refused to be either bullied (as Musharraf tried to do first time) or flattered (by rejecting social invitations from Musharraf once he realized this man could not be bullied).

The Chief Justice has to be one of the greatest Pakistanis. He has inspired not just thousands of brave Pakistani lawyers and media and students (every one of whom is a hero and a true soldier for Pakistan in my view), but also lawyers in other countries, and even forced our corrupt politicians to rise above themselves and talk about the rule of law.

How about you?

Re: # 62
dear tahmed 32...we are on the same page. i believe in democratic, secular and humanistic systems rather than autocratic, dictatorial and totalitarian systems. at the same time i also hope that children have good role models in their parents and teachers so that they learn to follow their good conscience even if they have to offer sacrifices rather than bad conscience....to have short term goals based on greed. as a human species in 21st century we are lacking positive role models in the homes and inspiring leaders in the communities...we have more politicians than statesmen. someone stated the difference in these words
...a politician thinks of the next election...a statesman thinks of the next generation.
since you mentioned pakistani politics which political leader inspires you and why?
. sincerely sohail

dr. sohail: I agree with you that the current status is unstable - arnold toynbee, as far back in the 1940's i think, had pointed to this great danger whereby humans have developed the technology to wipe itself off the face of the earth on the one hand while human emotions like anger and fear are rooted in our animal past. this is a dangerous mixure indeed!! some people have even theorized that we may already be on the brink of extinction - and they point to the lack of signs of any life in the universe that has reached a technology capable of traversing the stars and allowing them to make us aware of their presence. This last is obviously highly speculative, but nevertheless a useful warning that we may be on "the clattering train" (the poem foreboding disaster that churchill referred to in parliament in the days before WWII) at this stage.

To my mind the best bet we have against this is democracies and the rule of law. democracies dont fight because politicians who have to run for elections have to act more responsibly than egotistical dictators (and pakistan has been cursed with more than one such scoundrel).

So - the very existence of mankind may depend on whether dictatorships or law-abiding democracies prevail. And the current struggle for the rule of law in Pakistan thus becomes a major battle in this struggle.

I personally am a lot more optimistic that you are i think - the information oeconomy today, where cooperation between firms is emerging as the new paradigm rather than competition as was true in the industrial economy certainly favors the rule of law. Also, efforts are already underway in case of US, China, Japan and EU and perhaps India at some stage to colonize the moon, mars and to mine the asteroid bel - so there is plenty of elbow room in the solar system, and hopefully that will also promote the principle of cooperation not competition. There is enough to go around

Long post. But hope it makes some sense. Cheers. :-)

Re: # 58
Dear Khurram...Yes I did order it and read it a while ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Paul Tillich is a wonderful philosopher with prodound insights in human condition. sincerely sohail

#51 Posted by szaman on December 11, 2007 7:15:24 am


THIS IS FOR MASADI


US elite made the saudis do that.

Re: # 57
dear tahmed 32...thank you for a thought provoking letter. in my opinion human species has reached adolescence and for the first time in history we are able to commit collective suicide or homicide because of nuclear weapons. humans used to get involved in tribal wars and kill a few hundred or thousands with arrows and guns but now they can wipe out the whole race.
at this cross-roads humans can regress to tribal mentality and kill each other...sunnis killing shiites...hindus killing muslims...muslims killing jews...etc etc
or realize that we are all part of the same family.
we need to evolve from violent consciousness to peace consciousness and that was the goal of all religious, spiritual and secular traditions but they all failed so far.
i believe it depends upon human psyche and personality...if we evolve to that stage that you are hinting and accept ''cooperation'' is better than 'confrontation'' then we can learn to have a peaceful dialogue in our families and communities and countries and cultures otherwise we are proceeding on the road to destruction.
the present conditions in the world with
muslim...christian...jewish...hindu fundamentalism the future looks bleak but being an idealist i hope that we have a critical mass of people in the world who has political power to create a new United Nations....where only 5 superpowers are not the only to have veto power rather there is COLLECTIVE WILL that we want peace not war and abolish all national armies...
it seems unrealistic because the world economy has become war economy and people like me are perceived as idealists and are in minority.
presently the world is going towards an existential breakdown. i just hope that individually and collective we as human beings experience a breakthrough..otherwise we will all kill each other in the next couple of centuries and justify our killings and wars by our political and religious and economic ideologies...sincerely sohail

drsohail,
Yes, I am the same person. There is no khurrum on chowk.
Did you get a chance to read Dynamics of Faith?

dr sohail: recent research shows that over the past 5000 years, humans have started evolving several times faster (measured in terms of dna changes) than early on. much of this seems to have to do with the success of the human species as a result of "civilization" that allowed it to spread across the globe from africa starting 30,000 years or so ago. thus, about 10,000 years ago, there was virtually no racial difference among humans. since then, africans have developed resistance to malaria (flip side - sickle cell anemia) and europeans have lost melanin (to better absorb vitamin D from sunlight).

if evolution has speeded up past 5,000 years, it seems that in this century and the next it would be virtually exploding - given the vast increases in intermingling of populations due to globalization, advancements in medical science.

The questions then are - will we see the human psyche to adapt to these changes by replacing "competition" with "cooperation" as the strategy for survival? are the religious fundamentalists the last group of individuals that still see the world as it was for for our ancestors for billions of years and until a mere few decades ago when humans stopped needed to kill one another to survive and prosper?

Re: # 55
dear thinking storm....the chowky che guevara...i like your energy...your passion...your crazyness....your cynical wisdom...i feel that way sometimes and write passionate articles and provoke a lot of criticism...and sometimes i feel serene and sober and peaceful.... like other writers i also have changing moods that reflect in their actions and writings.
i have written a spicy article that i will send to chowk editors next month and see if they like it....have some suspense for a while...your friendly and humourous comments are always welcome...all the best...sohail

dear khurram,

Saint Augustine was a great beleiver and supporter of "Just Wars". Please read up on his work to gain inspiration on the topic.

Dr. Sohail, I know you are busy and all, but I did craft a nice suggestion for you in my first interact on this board :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 53
dear khurram...i smiled when i read your simple but profound question. while i try to ponder over your question can you share what you mean by 'just war' and do you believe in it. i can see this question starting a passionate dialogue among readers......sohail
ps...i sometimes confuse between khurram (with an a)...and khurrum (with a u) are you the one who exchanged some private emails with me about the psychology of fundamentalist and humanist personalities and suggested i read paul tillich's book about Dynamics of Faith?

drsohail,
do you believe in 'just war' ?

Re: # 38
dear ijaz gul...the issue of violence in humans is quite complex
those like lorenz who focus on instincts focus on the animal part of humans and show that in certain conditions the animal part in humans dominate and they become aggressive and violent
those like eric fromm who focus on psychological, social and economic aspects highlight that human beings develop a certain personality based on their family and cultural conditioning
eric fromm has written a wonderful book....the anatomy of human destructiveness...in which he shares that in animals aggression is BENIGN...animal is hungry...kills to satisfy his hunger ....and then leaves
in humans the aggression is MALIGNANT (humans are the most dangerous and violent animals on earth) because humans associate vilence and aggression with a meaning....whether revenge...ideology....or justice...
and then RATIONALIZE their aggression. i wanted to share how human beings JUSTIFY their violence and certain material and social conditions
religion
or
economics
or
politics
can be used to dominate and control other human beings and nations. Whether it is religious domination or economic control of the world....different religious and political leaders use those reasons to rationalize their aggression and violence. Since most theories are either sociological presented by sociologists or psychological presented by psychologists or economic presented by economists we are still struggling to have a unified theory....eric fromm is one of those who tried to build a bridge between sociological and psychological theories as he was well read in theories of Freud and Marx. His book The Sane Society is wonderful as he compares the capitalist and socialist societies. In the contemporary world we need a new integrated theory that is still missing as we are lacking an integrated approach to life.
thank you for your interest...sohail

THIS IS FOR MASADI


Lashing the victim

By Irfan Husain

TRY this for a scenario: a young woman is gang-raped in, say, the US. The rapists are given a few months, while the victim is sentenced to three months in jail as well as 90 lashes. And when her lawyer appeals for a stiffer sentence for the men, it is her sentence that is doubled.

We can imagine the worldwide uproar had such a grotesque travesty actually taken place. Except that it has, in Saudi Arabia, not the US. In much of the Muslim world, this horrifying episode has been virtually blanked out of the public consciousness, with the media maintaining a discreet silence.

And to compound this judicial farce, the judges have also barred Abdalrahman al-Lahim, the defence lawyer, from appearing in their court. According to them, by going public with this horror story, both the victim and her attorney have attempted to influence them.

The tragedy began last year when the unnamed 19-year old woman got into a car to discuss a professional matter with a male colleague. Two other men entered the car, and forced them to drive into the desert where they were joined by the rest of their gang. Here they gang-raped the woman, and attacked her male companion as well.

When the traumatised woman and her husband reported the matter to the police, she was accused of being in the company of a na-mehram (an unrelated male), a crime in Saudi Arabia. On this charge, she was sentenced to three months in jail, and 90 lashes. And when she appealed, the sentence was doubled.

The whole sickening episode casts an unflattering light on what passes for justice in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Archaic laws, interpreted by judges with little or no formal legal training, form the backbone of jurisprudence. Although termed ‘Islamic’, in reality they are a vague collection of tribal customs and rules imposed by men who seldom bother to refer to precedents. Far too often, they are arbitrary and harsh. And invariably, they are anti-women.

When incidents like the Mukhtaran Mai gang-rape are reported in Pakistan, international outrage puts pressure on the government to act against those responsible. True, many such cases never make it to the international media, and victims suffer in silence in a male-dominated, archaic society. But at least, there is a theoretical recourse to justice.

In Saudi Arabia, public opinion counts for very little. As the planet’s biggest exporter of petroleum, and with coffers bulging from soaring oil prices, the Saudi ruling family does not have to care what the rest of the world thinks of them.

Even White House spokesmen, normally so ready to criticise human rights violations around the world, are reduced to mumbling about ‘cultural differences’. Surely no system anywhere allows the victims of crimes to be punished.

And within the Islamic world, there is a tendency to ignore excesses committed by Muslims against their fellow-Muslims. Thus, when believers blow up, behead, torture, maim and slaughter their brethren, a conspiracy of silence comes into operation. Rulers can jail and torment opponents, steal elections (when and if they are ever held), and invade their neighbours with scarcely a word of criticism from fellow-Muslims.

So nobody in the Muslim world protests when Hamas gunmen kill Fatah foot-soldiers or vice versa. But when the Israelis join in, there is a wave of outrage. Similarly, when Iraqi militias slaughter other Iraqis, none of us protest. But when Americans kill Iraqis, we are rightly incensed. In Afghanistan, far more innocent Afghans are killed by other Afghans than by Nato forces.

As moral human beings, it is right that we should raise our voices against illegal occupation and invasion. But who has invaded Pakistan where daily, terrorists kill innocent people in the name of Islam?

The truth is that we are very selective in our condemnation of violence, reserving our criticism for the West. But this hypocrisy is apparent to the rest of the world. When we defended the Taliban, we invoked their peculiar tribal customs to justify their vicious practices. In fact, had 9/11 not occurred, they would still merrily be flogging women for inadvertently showing an inch of skin.

And when the Lal Masjid insurgency erupted in the heart of our capital, there was more sympathy for the armed militants and the crazed students who were killed than there was for the soldiers and policemen who died to restore the writ of the state.

In part, these double standards are caused by an unspoken ‘them versus us’ syndrome that rests on the notion of a Muslim ummah encircled and victimised by the West. So we tend to overlook the horrors that are committed daily across much of the Muslim world. But this quest for a united front proves elusive when placed in the crucible of self-interest.

The reality is that this whole notion of a vast Islamic brotherhood stretching from Morocco to Indonesia does not bear close examination. Over the years, despite much bombast and tall claims about Islamic unity, Muslim countries have done exactly what suited them, without any consideration of what was good for the ummah.

The reason this polite fiction is kept alive, in public at least, is that Muslim rulers can exploit such popular sentiments when it suits them. So although there were no public protests in the Islamic world when Iraq invaded Iran in 1980, or Kuwait in 1990, many Muslims did stage protests against the American-led invasions of Iraq in 1990, and then in 2003. But it should be noted that the massive demonstrations in western capitals against the second Gulf War were far larger than those organised by Muslims.

So we can see that we are very selective in deciding how we react to actions carried out in the West and in the Islamic world. These double standards rob us of the moral high ground. By applying one code to judge fellow Muslims, and an entirely different one to pronounce on the West, we have lost the right to be taken seriously in the counsels of the world.

Thus when human rights violations take place in Pakistan, we look to the West to apply pressure on our rulers, not to our fellow-Muslims. In any case, for the latter, official thuggery is the norm, not the exception.

Very informative Dr Sohail Sahib. Not only in matters of mental health, but in all matters, integrated approaches are way to go.

#25 Posted by krashid1961 on December 10, 2007 5:40:52 pm


For the interest of all.
Pakistan rich list. Top ten is interesting.


yup..interesting in that it's fake. the billionaires don't show up on the forbes list or anywhere else.

Re: # 47

Infact Islam is the most "other wordly" cult where people are all the time fearing that they would miss the birth in heavens if they do not follow the "Islamic principles".

Demolish the metaphysics of heavens and you have better muslims who work for the betterment of the real world!!

What is fundamentalism? Believing that Mike Jakson is the greatest singer on the planet earth or that Bugs Bunny is the real Islamic Allah is my unshaken belief.
I am a fundamentalist!!

But I do not intend to kill others or myself over others not believing in what I believe.

The issue is not whather fundamentalism per se is bad- the issue is whether you consider your fundamental beliefs to be more precious than a human life!!

Islam does not believe in sanctity of a non-muslim life in particular. That is why it is responsible for the cult of blood thirsty Allah that seeks blood sacrifices in the form of Shahadats of human beings and those ghastly id sacrifices of goats and cows!!

Re: # 45***** Sorry Dattu bhai , main nay Agha Ji ka baat kia .Quetta main meray classfellow thay. sorry.waisay dil ka kharab aadmi nahin hai woh.bas daroo ziada peeta tha.

Re: # 44 is Sohail or the naqshabandi you talking about here TIGRAM?

I mean you have been studying Pavocavalry now for a better part of a decade, and now you have added another...the world is way too small for you friend (T)

Re: # 43LL- Bhai Jan Iss Aadmi ko main janya hoon,Quetta main meray school main parhta tha.Yaih to iss ka khat hai.Sachai likhee is nay iss liay yeh pakistani logon ko bohat takleef hua jai.

I find this article rooted in contemopary realities. What Dr. Sohail stated is simple but obvious. Reaffirmation of those points is never unwanted here.

For those who also write (eg. Naqshabandi) that it's impossible to thrill and titillate with every article u write. Ppl living in glasshouses shud not throw stones.

Pavocavalry:

"The employment of the Jehadis voluntarily or deliberate is an interesting phenomenon of the Kashmir situation. Many of these are men who would be as happy to kill a Shia as a Hindu! A saying of a Britisher said about a Bannu Tribal Pathan lashkar brought to loot and kill Muslims of Lucknow and Oudh in 1857-58 fits well with these extremists i.e. “whether these blood thirsty brigands kill a rebel Hindustani Indian or are killed is equally beneficial for the British Empire, for in the Trans Indus Frontier one tribal Pathan less will make our task easier and one Indian rebel Sepoy killed in Lucknow will make our task in the Ghadar easier”! "

A great paragraph.....how true even today -

For a seminar presentation this essay was full of broad generalisations and cliches and I don't feel any more enlightened after having read it.

Amin sahib,

Thanks for #37 and I am gald to notice that you have made paras shorter.

One advice though:

"This new Muslim Dracula" "for vampires"

Kindly dont refer to vampires and Draculas on www.chowk.com for some of MAJ (pbuh)'s misguided and short-sighted Injun Hanud detractors have a sad tendency to refer to him as a Vampire.

Regards

Agha,
I agree

Dr Sohail,
I have a few questions.
1. Could you explain if the cycle of violence is also related to primodialism?
2. What draws developed economies to violence in any form?
3. According to Lorenz are not all humans like animals dominating by nature till one over awes the other becoming the Alpha male/female?
This would help me understand your paper.

I think that violence and aggression are ingrained in human pshyche.Man only justifies it in name of reliogion,race,ideology.500,000 Spaniards killed in name of ideology.A million killed in Bengal in name of ethnicity.

Below is my article on a similar theme:--

Stray Reflections on Geopolitics and History Writing
August 2000

A.H Amin

This is not exactly an article but an attempt to analyse certain current geopolitical and current affairs issues. Many of these are discussed in various articles published in this journal. It is felt with a certain amount of conviction that there are certain psychological hang ups, which in my humble opinion have contributed, a great deal in adding fuel to fire in the Indo-Pak Sub Continent. We mortals are frail creatures vis-a-vis the current of history which we attempt to approach and understand and analyse in our own particular ways. In the process we mostly become subjective and passionate. Long ago the great psychologist Freud had concluded that majority of men are irrational and make most of their decisions on irrational basis! The role of those who write is thus to rise above their impulses and to write something to infuse some rationality in at least a certain segment of mankind!





One typical but vulgar approach in writing articles is to condemn any one particular state, without bothering to analyse the various factors that led a state to a certain point where its actions conflicted with another state or resulted in violation of human rights. I feel with considerable conviction that history is largely a record of crimes, follies and misfortunes of mankind as the great historian Gibbon said and above all is merely the story of manipulation of the many, the populace, by the few, the leaders or the dominant smaller classes, in the name of high sounding slogans like ideology, nationalism etc!





The Nature of Human Aggression

Human nature is essentially same, man can fight or kill for anything and any idea whether based on ideology, nationalism or class, it can divide people of the same race, even the same religion and even of the same family. The ulterior motivation is always personal or class interest disguised in the garb of high sounding slogans! I want to give certain concrete historical examples to prove this harmless assertion.

Take Spain of 1930s. One race, one country, one religion, and one sect. The struggle is between the feudal-clergy-military junta and the republicans asking for more equitable distribution of resources! No Two-Nation Theory but the Spaniards fight savagely for three years! Mind you there were no fighting in the Indian Freedom Struggle, as we like to call it, although the transfer of power was more the result of war exhaustion brought upon the British Empire as a result of two world wars! The result of the fighting between the Republicans and Monarchists under Franco1, 600,000 Spaniards were killed! In the Russians Civil War fought from 1917 to 1922 the casualties; killed only, were 1 crore or ten million!2 Russian killed Russians simply because one was from Denikin Kolchak or Yudenich’s White Army and another from Trotsky or Lenin’s Red Army! Even a Menshevik Communist killed another Russian simply because the other man was a Bolshevik Communist! The Chinese Civil War lasting from 1911 with uneven intervals till 1949 was equally brutal with Chinese killing Chinese in the name of an ideology conceived by a German of Jewish ancestry to liberate the workers of the world! The Britishers were horrified with the brutal pillage and destruction of Muslim Rohailkhand3 following conquest of Hindustani Pathan Muslim Rohailkhand by Shia Muslim of Oudh through hiring a British-Indian Brigade of the Honourable English East India Company!

What is the lesson! That man can fight for anything, not because two nations are different or war is inevitable between them or because Pakistan or India was inevitable; but simply because “Aggression” is ingrained in the human character! It is justified in the name of class war, war between two nations, a football riot or wars of successions between real brothers! The issue is never ideology but a piece of land that was lost by folly of one king or a flawed constitutional arrangement or a broken treaty concluded 100 years before. In the background is either class interest or ego of a leader or intrigue by a third party for its own interest! It’s a subtle combination of “Ideology” “Ethnicity” “Opportunism” and “Substance” that this scribe in his humble capacity has discussed in some detail in a small book written a year ago. Journalists make their living or channel their urges for aggression by writing militaristic and jingoistic sabre rattling articles about such issues, as is the case in Indo-Pak or any conflict dominated region! Leaders talk about these issues frequently as Indian and Pakistani leaders do to galvanise their electorate, so that their mind remains distracted from the core issues of class exploitation economic disparity and exploitation!





Take the Indo Pak Subcontinent. The two states of Pakistan and India were created because a third party i.e. the Britishers who were neither Muslim nor Hindu conquered India. Communalism based on religion emerged as a factor, emerged only after 1857 when the Hindu middle classes and business classes saw in introduction of Western Democracy and Competitive examinations, an opportunity to grab power without fighting a battle. It all started from the three coastal cities of Calcutta, Bombay and Madras with the highest number of educated Indians dominated above all by the Bengali Hindus who were the first to enjoy the fruits of Western Education by virtue of being colonised by the British before all other parts of India! I will quote some statistics to reveal the Bengali Hindu dominance in education over all other parts of India. From 1864 to 1885, the reader may note that this was Bengali Hindu dominance vis-a-vis other provinces which had similar Hindu majorities; thus the dominance was more provincial and ethnic than religious! From 1864 to 1885, 2,153 Indians from Bengal Province (Bengal Bihar and Orissa) passed the B.A examination as compared to 272 from NWP and Oudh (Modern UP), while only 107 candidates from Punjab (which at that time had two large non-Punjabi enclaves in the Trans Indus territories and the Hariana Districts) passed B.A.4 The Bengalis took the lead and were viewed as a threat by the UP elite both Hindu and Muslim in the 1880s! In 1886 Pandit Ajudia Nath a leading UP Hindu made a statement before the Public Service Commission against recruitment to government posts by competitive examination since the learned Pandit felt that UP men were backward in English education compared with maritime province (i.e. Bombay, Madras and Bengal). Candidates could stand little chance in open competition against the maritime province candidates.5 As education advanced in UP the Hindus of other provinces came closer. Being the larger community and more dominant in terms of education, business assets and representation in the professional and civil servant classes. The Indian Hindus were in a position of strategic advantage to dominate post British politics of India after the British withdrew from India! Even this was a class affair since the Hindus who dominated the Congress were from Brahmin and Kayasth classes while the older Hindu dominant classes i.e. the Rajputs, Jats and Marathas were now relegated to the background by virtue of being less educated and financially insolvent or bankrupt!6 The Muslim League founded in 1906 was on the other hand a Muslim feudal dominated party with its base in UP till at least 1937! In 1937 Nehru foolishly antagonised the UP Muslims who dominated the Muslim League by not offering them any seat unless they left the Muslim League! It was just a question of two seats in the UP Cabinet over which the Hindustani Muslims decided to stand behind Jinnah. Pure Punjabi intellectuals like S.M. Ikram have admitted that Muslim separatism had its origin in the Muslim minority provinces, and that too primarily U.P. Francis Robinson has made a remarkable study of the UP Muslims and has proved, with conctrete facts and figures that it was while defending a position of strength, during the periood 1860-1923 which was threatened by introduction of local; government and the competitive examinations that the UP Muslims decided to opt for separatism, which became the basis of Pakistan Movement! The point is that all these political developments were more related to individual leaders and class interests than ideology as is propagated in India and Pakistan. Mr Jinnah broke away from Congress not over Hindu Muslim issue but over use of violence as a policy to evict the British from India! As late as 1937 Mr Jinnah described Punjab, which became the cornerstone of Pakistan in 1946 as a hopeless place, which he shall never again visit!7





Pakistan was created in 1947. It is thought provoking to note that only 10 % of the population of India was eligible to vote in the 1935 Elections and out of these less than half did not vote8 The situation was not much different in 1947! Muslim separatism which finally led to the division of India in 1947 was not something inevitable since 711 A.D but was a tactical response of the Indian Muslim middle and higher classes to fear of Hindu Brahmin and Kayasth class domination. A valid response but one, which required great vision which was sadly lacking! Once religion was misused to exploit the East wing, Bangladesh was created. Bangladesh has survived, a fact that disproves the pre 1947 Congress assertion that India cannot be divided into smaller states and the post 1947 Pakistani assertion that mere religion is a panacea for all problems!





Kashmir Issue

Now coming to Kashmir, the subject of some 60% articles of many Indo-Pak military, historical and geopolitical journals. The issue in Kashmir is simple. An insurgency in order to succeed must either be backed by armed intervention by the neighbouring state or by massive financial or military aid from outside. The former was the case in Bangladesh in 1971 when the Bengalis got their country because of Indian military intervention! Or it was Kuwait in 1991, which owed its re-birth to US military intervention! The latter happened in Afghanistan or Vietnam with massive US or Soviet/Chinese aid to guerilla forces, or in