The Real Issue Facing Pakistan

Zeemax writes "Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Caspian Treaty, do these account for nothing?"

Over a third of the world under direct Soviet control accounted for nothing and could not prevent its collapse, how can these distractions account for anything? The US knows how to hurt China if it wanted to, its growth in a large part is dependant on the US and its economy is now more than before dependant on it

Pardesi writes "Westerns just can not take chances with the flow of Oil and any one coming in its way would be destroyed. It’s as simple as that"

No it is not as simple as that. If capitalism is threatened by collapse, if the way of life of this elite is threatened, it is due to the boom/slump cycle inherent in this system. managing the slump while maintaining their privilaged position [and they have discovered ever since WW2 that it can be managed through global militarism], is what the main key is in understanding global affairs. Oil men seek to enhance their profits and sometimes it entails cutting off the supply of oil, as happened in US occupied Iraq, so it is not flow of oil per se. But oil men are not the only ones calling the shots they have coincidence of needs, of their class interests that makes them a component but not the sum total of the US power elite.

#81 Posted by masadi,

Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Caspian Treaty, do these account for nothing?

That's what I meant by it is no longer a Unipolar world. US can no longer impose its world-view unchallenged in Asia/Eurasia.

Zeemax writes "It is no longer a Unipolar world. And those who still believe it is, are mere fools. "

The world was quite unipolar duing the cold war at the height of Soviet might and it is very much unipolar now. All this clamoring by the pygmies is only fodder for the Shaitan to grow fat on the blood of humanity. Ahmedinejad and Chavez might think that they have busted the unipolarity of the world, the Chinese high on opium might think that (and the US encourages it in its "China Threat" pieces that have been mass produced since even before the Cold War ended), but the fact of the matter is, these things don't cause even a tiny dent in the structure of domination on the contrary it enhances the tenticles of the Shaitan in new directions....

#70 by HP "When you create a situation for interference or support, you have to develop some rationale for that too"

No disagreement there but that rationale works with the lower ranks and not with the top leadership who are firmly in the US camp. Fundamentalism taking over the Army is different to the Army taking over fundamentalism- that was my point.

HP in #69 "The days of Master or Slave are long gone. Now it is just a perception for some that are scared of competition"

Not so, colonization of the implicit kind is very much alive and thriving today. You cannot compete when one side has a rudimentary economy and the other a highly industrialized one, who use the rudimentary economy for its own benefit. Neither the people of India nor of China have benefitted from globalization, and a country (the US) that has not refrained from using the gun to keep its dominant position will not let those it has enslaved nation upset its economic hegemony by free and fair competition and industrialization in the developing world. We know how these corporate chiefs behave and to assume that they will commit suicide in this manner even though they decide US policy in a large part is naive.

Merry Christmas every one !

Priorities for Western world (USA is just a bolder front man for coward Europeans) are:

1. Oil and
2. Assurance that its flow to the world is not disrupted

All other actions are just sub-set of #2.

2.1 Handle Islamic terror

2.1.1 Afghanistan – work in progress
2.1.2 Iraq – work in progress
2.1.3 Iran – Project in detailed design phase
2.1.4 Pakistan - Preferably use Pak institutions

2.2 Ensure Israel’s safety (it’s watch dog in the area)
2.3 Reform Arabs at the pace they can handle

China and Russia will not come in the way since they have vested interest in western economy and their own economies are getting steadily integrated with it.

USA does not hate Islam. They bombed Serbians to save Muslims. They love your non-vegetarian food more than you do. Arabs are the best consumers of western products and pose no future high tech challenges since they are easy going fun loving as opposed to studious, ambitious and hard working Chinese and Indians.

Westerns just can not take chances with the flow of Oil and any one coming in its way would be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

#77 Posted by zeemax on December 25, 2007 3:16:47 am


How then is the nonsense called War on Terror not a War on Islam?


That's pretty obvious...this is a war on islamic terrorism..


Once surface to air capability is handed out to Taliban, tables will turn just as they did in case of the Soviets.


Why don't you equip your flying pigs with laser guided bombs?



Which way should Pakistan go?


It's not like you have a choice...one phone call and your military will just grease up and bend over..

Let me make my perspective clear.

The 6 US grand strategic foreign policy objectives for the 21st century are as follows:

1) Defence & protection of Israel is first priority. No compromise over that. Any Muslim state with just a 'capacity' to threaten Israel at any later date, with a nuclear weapons program, will be attacked. Iraq was first, Iran is next, and Pakistan will follow.

2) Demolition of Political Islam wherever it raises its head. Democracy is fine, but not where Political Islam wins democratically. It is much more potent than communism which did not have a robust ideological base. Political Islam does.

3) Control of global fuel assets. Main reserves are in Muslim lands and the rest in Eurasia.

4) Control of global waterways/sea-lanes. Gibraltar, Bosphorus, Suez, Horn of Africa, Malacca Straits, and of-course the Persian Gulf - all in Muslim control.

5) Encirclement of Russia.

6) Encirclement of China.

Four of the above six agendas involve Muslims. How then is the nonsense called War on Terror not a War on Islam?

The only spanner in the works in the scheme of global domination by US is Taliban. First the Afghan variety, and now the Pakistani one.

All indications are that Russia & China who are supporting Taliban covertly now, will overtly do so as events progress. Once surface to air capability is handed out to Taliban, tables will turn just as they did in case of the Soviets. Things will come full circle Vis a Vis USA.

US strategic design in occupation of Afghanistan is not for any battles with some Al-Qaida or the myth of 9/11 or hunt for the guy who they say brought down their two towers. It is about the above 6 points.

Which way should Pakistan go? Enlightened moderation & Cheerleaders for the Quetta football team? Or keep sitting on the fence till the fence is shoved up its bottom by one or the other super powers?

It is no longer a Unipolar world. And those who still believe it is, are mere fools.

#63 Posted by hamidm2 on December 24, 2007 9:03:48 pm

piss off..the "moderate" paki act doesn't fly with me..

#66 Posted by HP on December 24, 2007 9:28:43 pm

Do you think for a minute that I can't just reverse the ban on my previous ids?

hint: how do you think faisaluno outed himself on his chowk profile..around the same time you were banned..

With friends like Talebans , do we seriously need enemies?

Just yesterday , I was speaking to a senior commander of Pak Navy who had worked for inter-services intellegence.
Some points from Pak. Navy's Prespective:

a) French Engineers Sucide Bombing was done by : Indians -
b) Chinese , Americans fighting a proxy in Pakistan
c) No One in the world is willing to give Pakistan Navy anything new or old
d) We have a defensive navy.

#72 Posted by ijaz_gul,

Kaal was being sarcastic in #5. Kaal is not easy to decipher, but I claim to know his cipher :)

I would have loved to join the discussion early, but got back very late from church.

In nutshell, even after the elections the TAMASHA will go on. I would tend to agree with Romairs point of view and agree on What Lies Ahead.

I feel that this time around, all political parties will get a good number of new entrants elected who in fact will be moles. Being of ample significance/links, they will channelise opinions, carry messages and blend the KHICRI, just like Zees post at #71 suggests. Military's Security Perspective will be imposed on the minds by such parliamentarians, while the fate of the protesting class will lie at the mercy of batons and house arrests. Police through sweeping powers will have a frolicking time in direct propotion to the crime rate (poverty related) in urban areas.

HP, I would love if you could analyse what catorie controls the army because I agree with Hamid that the general cadre of the army can be absolved.

Kaal, as a TBM/CBM, I appreciate your apt analysis at#5.

HP,

And where does India fit in all this?

Let me ask you some specific questions.

1) You didn't comment on the role of the SCO (China/Russia/CARs) in Afghanistan - the offer of Chinese mediation over Korean hostages - do they have a leverage over them?

2) Why did Musharraf first refuse to attend the Afghan Jirga, and then when he did, declared 'all' Taliban as not terrorists and recommended negotiating with them?

3) Who started the killings of the Chinese contractors in Pakistan, particularly the killings in Hub and Gwadar. All indications are it was BLA. BLA is not Islamist. Whose interests are they furthering if not India which after having failed in getting USA to beat Pakistan up through diplomatic efforts, would not be promoting low-intensity wars in Baluchistan/NWFP in following the US agenda of limiting Chinese influence in Pakistan while at the same time killing two birds with one stone in keeping Pakistan destabilized and away from Kashmir interventions?

4) The BB mobile bomb in Karachi was claimed as a suicide attack. That claim has long been discredited. It was a remotely detonated IED. Was the Charsadda bomb a suicide attack? Or was it remotely detonated too? If the target was Sherpao, he had clanged venue at the last moment. Did the bomber know he would beforehand? If the bomber had penetrated security, he didn't have to detonate in the eighth row when Sherpao was in the first row. He could have waited till the end of the prayers and stood in line to embrace Sherpao in the tradition and BOOM! The report is there was a crater at the explosion site. Suicide bombs don't cause craters. These kill in a radius above the ground with ball bearings and steel nails.

Now, my question, is there a possibility India could have an interest in fomenting Pakistan insurgencies through BLA and some Afghan elements to get the army to react disproportionately against the Islamists, and make matters worse? And how would undermining the Pakistan military help in confronting such a situation?

#49 Posted by masadi

“so it is not fundameltalism per se that the Army supports because of some calling but its support of the US agenda for which the Jihadis are easy fodder.”

When you create a situation for interference or support, you have to develop some rationale for that too. That rationale could be completely bogus or could have some merits. The rationale that provided the army some arguments for creating support for the US or for itself is fundamentalism.

It becomes a vehicle for the army to destroy whatever institutions are left in the country and the army uses the same vehicle to deny the civil rights to the society.

The power of the fundamentalist ideas in a backward, semi tribal and feudal country like Pakistan is gigantic. The army is reluctant to let go of this weapon in their hands. Therefore, it becomes important to challenge both as if you weaken one, you weaken the other too.

Fundamentalists in Pakistan are created by the army. They maybe ujaad, jahil but by their actions they create helpful situations for the army. Unfortunately, as I have argued in my article above, the people more impressed with the fundamentalism are not just ujaad and jahil but the educated army officers too.

#50 Posted by masadi

“Working with the West is a BIGG with two G's problem because it will always ensure the hierarchy that the West has determined in which they are the slave masters and we are the slaves.”

There are more than two sides of many issues and this is one of them. I believe that it is the responsibility of every government to help its businesses grow. A government of any country that would not do its part is not worth keeping. The US government needs to help its businesses and corporations in doing that; sometimes they tend to be aggressive. That aggressiveness may have two implications: it could be good for the business and or it could create resistance or resentment in some countries.

When they go overly aggressive and start using the force to take over other countries assets and resources that is when we should have problems. As long as the US is peacefully promoting its business interests, it is a good citizen. The days of Master or Slave are long gone. Now it is just a perception for some that are scared of competition.

People, corporations and the countries are in business for profit and they go where they see more benefits/profits and part of the getting benefits is ensuring to keep the costs down. If India would not offer a service at a cheaper price, the business would simply go some where else. If the Chinese had worried about the Master and Slave relationship, they would still have had their country shutdown for outside businesses.

Promoting outside investment in one’s country is not promoting Master and salve relationship. When businesses from the developed countries invest in poor countries they bring technology and know-how with them and sooner or later they transfer the technology and know-how that helps the poor countries.

Two good examples for you: when India had shutdown the country for foreign investments, the country had lost every hope of coming out of the centuries old slumber. Pakistan had opened itself for the outside investments and there was a period of immense growth in the country. We are still reaping some benefits from those old investments. The Pakistan politicians first closed the country for the outside investments and then Pakistan army decided to follow an adventurist path.

Pakistan is paying and will continue to pay a heavy price for that. I have no problem with the US, if it comes in Pakistan and invests in businesses but we have serious problems when the US invests only with the army and then complaints that there is no accounting for the investments.