The Real Issue Facing Pakistan

beggar, dog....

If you disagree with them, then sure, all that, and worse. If you don't, then, for their own selves, it was just one hell of a successful round of negotiation. And the party continues.

I wouldn't worry about doubts and debates in the US. Those have continued for the last sixty years. The state departments have never much liked Pakistan. But they have hardly mattered. It's always been the Pentagon, and personal relationships funneling the gravy train.

This way or that way, doesn't matter. What matters is that, finally, money comes in. And the US also gets blamed for everything.

HP,

With all due respect, it’s not a new revelation to outsiders that Army is the real problem. If all Pakistanis come to that conclusion, that’s a great start.

The real issue is what will you do with it and how will you implement whatever decision you guys take.

Basically you have two options:

A. Tame the army and make them behave like other armies i.e., they accept civilian leadership. The issues you will have are:

1. Convincing these guys that their compensation will match say India’s armed personnel.
2. Civilians might reduce their budget due to other priorities
3. The army and people will have to accept that civilians will also be very corrupt (like they are in India) and it will have to be tolerated.
4. Also army and people may have to swallow bitter pill that Kashmir issue is on backburner perhaps for ever.

B. Glorify the army as the sword of global Islamic forces and do whatever is needed to build, expand and solidify their hold. Challenges you will have are:

1. Western forces will look at first opportunity to destroy this force since you have the bomb. Be prepared for the associated sacrifices.
2. Forget about all your civil liberties and pretense to be a moderate people
3. Prepare folks and then live through long struggle that Islamic fundamentalists talk about.

The days of playing both sides are coming to an end. Your folks will need to make a strategic choice and then face the real issues about how to get there.

Let’s hope that choices are made without resorting to a civil war.

HP writes "I think working with west is not a problem. After all, you get every thing from the west including your ideologies."

Working with the West is a BIGG with two G's problem because it will always ensure the hierarchy that the West has determined in which they are the slave masters and we are the slaves. Regarding the ideologies, it is because the global economic system is Western projected, so both the idelogies, the particles and the anti particles find their origin there, nothing wrong with that, change the system and those will be redundant and Marx can finally rest in his grave....

HP writes "The tribal support of the Taliban has allowed the foreign forces to extend their stay in that country and it has helped the Pak army get enormous support from the US and helped the US in its regional strategic goals"

Correct, so it is not fundameltalism per se that the Army supports because of some calling but its support of the US agenda for which the Jihadis are easy fodder. There is a huge difference between this and between claiming that the top leadership of the Army (which is through and through a US Army command indigeneously staffed) is actually pursuing a fundamentalist agenda...

pakis heard a dog is a man's best friend and then set about to be america's female dog...

Re: # 45

yep - nehru was a fool, not much of a bania at all... :)

Even though pakis smartly milked US, they foolishly wasted it all on hate-kafir projects... instead of spending it on making lives better for themselves... while hinuds under nehru were wasting their time under fake socialism, pakis could have built some real prosperity fot themselves...

But hate ideology got better of them... what fools...

Re: # 45

OK, so they are clever beggars, what is the
big deal about being clever beggar?

Thanks, bubba.

mohar11, the REAL achievement was to consistently do all that to a country of US' size and resources and 'think tanks,' AND, at the same time, firmly convince all its own citizens that the US is/was their greatest enemy.

Jews are smart but they end up looking like novices in comparison.

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For a contrast, consider someone like Nehru who actually went around making enemies.

Re: # 42

Yep - pakis have been milking uncle sam pretty well - all the while crying copious tears about "manipulation"... they have used and abused their alliances with West towards their own "strategic" goals... Now that all those "strategies" have basically back-fired, they are whining about manipulation and what not...

Today - nytimes has reported that pakis diverted US-given funds from WOT to weapons systems against india... even now - pakis have still not learnt their lessons... the "ideology" is still alive...

it's the ideology which has taken pakis down to where they are now... everything else is bullsh!t... and this ideology is alive pakis of all stripes - unwashed abdul to army tinpots...

No matter what this fool HP says- the real issue facing pakiland is the islamic ideology... it has always been so...

Re: # 40 Posted by Eklavya on December 24, 2007 2:27:48 pm

[…did anything good and significant happen in Pakistan that Pakistani people recognize as having been done by the United States?] Yes, when JFK was killed, Pakistan went into three days of official mourning. When LBJ, came to Karachi, he had an open car parade on Karachi streets, and he stopped and invited a camel rider (Bashir) to come to the US along with his camel. All this just goes to show that Pakistanis were under Shah of Iran’s influence. Right until mid-1970s, Pakistanis knew that their country survived as a new nation due to the largesse of the western world. The only political party that spewed hatred against the west was JI, and most Pakistanis knew they were planted by the US to flush out any anti-Americanism that existed amongst the political mandarins. This has continued until this day.

Nowadays all Pakistani politicians are singing praises for democracy (read: whatever the US wants), transparency, etc. for their survival in the public domain. In no time one of them will fess up to this fact that, in all these 60 years, it was them (the ruling elite), who created all the anti-American hoopla, to get the optimum political mileage from the west. If the politicians in Islamabad want to survive they must fess up this fact, that it was they themselves who were instrumental in fanning anti-American hatred in Pakistan. The new Pakistani industrialists must see this writing on the wall.

From Pakistan's (or any receiver's) point of view, nothing one receives is ever worth more than peanuts, and anything one has to give in exchange is far too much. So dissatisfaction is understandable.

But Pakistan appears to have managed/manipulated its relationship with the US exceedingly well. Continues to do so to this day. It receives continuously, and except for one flight to china, hasn't ever given anything in return.

That's an incredible achievement of diplomacy.

Re: # 36 Jang

Bullsh!t... pakiland has always willngly signed on to West's agendas - manipulation my foot... pakis always had and still have a choice to be a normal country, with rational policies... but they are just too stupid...

If Cuba could be on its own - so could pakiland... it's a medium sized country with good potential - it can very well survice and do well on its own... only if pakis get their heads out of their behinds..:)

Bubba, thanks. That may well be. Many people argue that everything that happens/happened in Pakistan is/was because America (and Saudia?, and china?) wants/wanted that happen.

As a matter of curiosity, did anything good and significant happen in Pakistan that Pakistani people recognize as having been done by the United States?

Re: # 28

HP Sahib:

Which part you do not understand:

Is it, this:
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“First Universal Law of Democratic Voting – “It is easy to manage results by whipping up emotions.”
Negative ads, in the U.S. serve a purpose also. Republicans started – a la Dukakis, and have since proven.”

Or, is it, this:
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“Today, the strongest emotions in that part of the world where Pakistan is situated are toward regressive fundamentalism.

After all Modi got re-elected just recently.

Most people in Pakistan are for not such a democracy.”

Or, is it, this:
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“Let us look at the only example of building successful democratic institution in that part of the world. With the views that you hold, you will it. It is India. There Nehru was responsible to start. Most will agree that Nehru was an autocrat (= dictator), hated dissent, ruthlessly dealt with it (election of communists in Kerala), and managed emotions (= post independence Congress) and got majority. Indira Gandhi was in the similar mould managed emotions (Bangaldesh) and got majority. Rajiv Gandhi managed emotions (his mother’s murder) got majority.

Musharraff too is a leader in the above mould, as were Jinnah and Bhutto. Present circumstances in Pakistan do not allow him to manage emotions to secure power and time to build democratic institutions. Both are essential for a democratic process to build institutions.”

Nehru part, I should have explained for you. Although, I thought when I put Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi to show the continuum, you would understand the point. But, now I am not surprised. Like Clinton once said, it is Economy, stupid. Here it is “Majority” , ****** . Majority gave that continuum, although, Nehru’s sperm indeed supplied the genes.

Or, is it, this:
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“Please add up the time that India got through managed emotions. It is about 45 years. Does it tell you something? Analyze this.”

Or, is it, this:
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“P(a)triarch of the richest Sindhi family with business "there are three stages in the life – get on it by hook(,) or by crook, get honest, and get honor.

Musharraff is trying to do the same. Give Musharraff a chance, if you are sincere Pakistani.”

All analysis are useless, if the person cannot synthesize the above. With a disability to synthesis and lateral thinking, your micro, nano, pico analysis upon analysis only kick up more dust to cloud your vision and bury you. This disability is detrimental to abilities to synthesize, and lateral thinking to connect all dots and see the picture. Then again, you may not get my point once more. After all it is HP sahib.

Re: # 7 Posted by Eklavya on December 24, 2007 10:02:56 am

[Were America, NATO, and Israel creating anti-Americanism in Pakistan?]

Yes. You must see the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" to get a flavor of how tempting it is to allow anti-Americanism to flourish amongst the people, while getting all the political mileage required by the rulers in Pakistan, starting from Zia.

Of course, due to a different world, and Chinese penetration in to Gawaadur port (which incidentally was started by the Americans) a different political landscape is being developed. No matter what, America will not allow Pakistan to be lost. This also means that a new pro-American demonstration will be seen on the streets of Pakistan. As it is, almost all American presidential candidates are talking about providing direct aid to the people of NWFP. Just read the presidential candidates foreign policies that are published in last three foreign policy journals. All this bogus anti-American rhetoric orchestrated by the Pakistani political managers is coming to an end. With JI considerably marginalized, the only force remaining for this type of anti-American sloganeering that can stir up anti-Americanism remains inside the Pakistan Army.

Shri Jang,
I just love great game theories. I was recently reading an article that showed that even Jinnah had some inclination to believe in the great game theories. He too was looking for US support because of Pakistani proximity to the Soviet Union. I think working with west is not a problem. After all, you get every thing from the west including your ideologies.

I think it would be impossible for any government in Pakistan civilian or army, to move away from the west.
You are also right that Pakistan has not managed that relationship well. I think it is time that civilians should work with the west instead of the army.