Benazir Bhutto Killed in an Attack

#371 Posted by krashid1961,

Benazir come out of sunroof, 3 shots missed. Suicide bomber hit. Benazir tried to come down and lever hit the scalp.

Sure, but this explanation is problematic because if she hit her head hard enough to crack the side open on the lever while trying to duck, she must have been ducking in a very rapid movement and would have collapsed back in the car in a heap. It didn't happen like that.

There were three other people in the car. Sherry Rehman, Naheed Khan and Babar Awan. They say she sort of slid down and sat on the seat and then slumped over. They say that at first they thought she had just come down because of the shots.

PPP has rejected the govt version and Farzana Raja has stated on CNN that it was a sniper in a nearby building.

But PPP rejection might have something to do with making her a 'Shaheed'. An accidental death does not qualify for 'Shaheed' does it? (Not that anyone else who is not killed fighting for the cause of Islam qualifies either - she was actually fighting for USA - but that's another matter).

Plenty of questions remain to be answered.

HP #374 Agreed that SEATO/CENTO contributed to building up the military which in turn led to Ayub Khan starting this dirty business of military coups in Pakistan.

But also remember - the military was already a significant employer for areas forming Pakistan at time of partition. And bad blood with India from day 1 contributed to the military remaining a significant institution in Pakistan. Would joining NAM have helped keep the peace? I dont think so. It didnt keep the peace between India and China, so no reason to think that things would have been different in case of Pakistan and India (where the bitternesses were much deeper and more complicated, and the area under dispute larger as well I think).

#370 Posted by tahmed32

"So, looks like Pakistan didnt miss out on anything by not joining NAM. "

In international or local/domestic politics there are many things between missing out and not missing out. It was a mistake for Pakistan to not join the NAM. By singing up the defense treaties Pakistan ended up "defense ko mazboot karana hay".

Whereas that was not the need of that hour. The more you make the army stronger, its ambition and desire to maintain privileges gets stronger too. In 1950s Pakistan army was a mediocre army but when it got the nod from the US and a steady arms supply, its ambition and the desire to control the resources to meet its ambitions got stronger too.
eventually, it became the only institution that was hard to challenge given its control of the domestic politics.
When finally the Bengali got around to challenging the army, the army found it convenient to give up that part of the country rather than give up its privileges.

Every decision in politics has consequences. By not taking the route for peace by joining the NAM, Pakistan ended up in the middle of the cold war. Afghanistan was part of the Cold war and look what happened to the country by championing a cause that had nothing to do with the Pakistani interests.

NAM had minimal impact but it did keep countries in the NAM away from the international conflicts albeit maintaining the neutrality. which some would say was a farce. But it was there and it would have helped Pakistan. That is what I think and I know there can be many povs here.

krashid: the doctor who attended to BB yesterday said a bullet went through her body. musharraf's minion today changed the story. and musharraf suddenly developed decency and is respecting zardari's demand that the body not be examined.

this thing stinks to high hell. it may be customary lying for some imagined gain. But it stinks to high hell anyway.

zeemax #369: so, with BB gone, what's next? Here is my prediction:

1. Calls for Mush to resign and for judges to be freed gain strength - Imran Khan already said that. NS implicitly said that when he withdrew PML from elections. PPP has a strong faction led by Ahsan that calls for doing the same.

2. Mush suddenly becomes wise, frees and re-appoints judges, apologizes to the nation for the mess he has created, resigns and promises never to be heard from again if only he is not tried on multiple charges.

3. Actually, 2. was a joke. Given your expert knowledge of Pakistan politics, perhaps you have an idea of what to expect post-BB.

HamidM
I don't think there is any charm, dramatization or filmi scene if conspiracy theory is not invoked in such a killing of such a towering figure.
Benazir come out of sunroof, 3 shots missed. Suicide bomber hit. Benazir tried to come down and lever hit the scalp. Inna lillahe wa inna ilehe rajeoon.
The only thing is if there is anything more, Asif Zardari killed it by not allowing postmortem. I don't believe he is part of conspiracy.

bjkumar: NAM had limited, statist goals: its basic goals as stated in the panchsheela basically called for maintaining state borders and not "meddling" in internal affairs of other countries. Big deal. and it failed to achieve these modest goals anyway - a few years after its landmark Bandung conference, India and China were fighting over some stupid boundry dispute.

And during this time, China had a major crop failure due to Maoist ideologues messing with agriculture, resulting in perhaps tens of millions of deaths.

And during this time, India (inspired by the Soviet model) messed around with Socialism, and the economy did not get moving until the fall of the Soviet Union caused the congress to switch over to capitalism.

So, looks like Pakistan didnt miss out on anything by not joining NAM.

KaalChakra,

Ponder over each component of the immaculate definition of statecraft as intended for Pakistan by ZAB as follows:

- Islam hamara Deen Hai
- Socialism hamari mueeshat hai
-Jamhooriyat hamari syasat hai
-Taqat ka sarchashma awam hai.

Above cleared all confusions. No conflict anywhere with Islam or Democracy or even the reds. It was perfect. This is why the 1973 constitution passed unanimously.

#366 Posted by bjkumar
Chup bay Gaddhay,

I am watching India and Aussies game and pissed off already! Get lost.
Interesting thing is the two commentators, Shastri and Wasim are saying that is harder for the Aussies to bowl in these conditions! hehehe. And we have poor Indian batsmen struggling to pick bowlers.

watch the game here.
http://www.bollym4u.com/

HP "no book contains the ultimate truth"

The "ultimate truth" might be beyond paper and ink but paper and ink can sure point the brain, whose reach is much beyond a book, in the right direction: that is the purpose of the Quran. There is a tendency in the now dated enlightenment era anti-religious ethos to ignore the big picture and concentrate on the "nitty gritty" much like shrinks do by ignorning society and concentrating on the individual and thus not getting to the bottom of anything. I don't have any "faith" issues.


slodhi, its a cheap escape to blame all of humanity's problems on "religion", especially in the current day when the institution has largely been replaced by the mythologies of capital.

#354 HP

Ladies and gentlemen, please watch me whip this character HP’s ass! (Once again!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CENTO

“The Central Treaty Organization (also referred to as CENTO, original name was Middle East Treaty Organization or METO, also known as the Baghdad Pact) was adopted in 1955 by Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, and Iran, as well as the United Kingdom…..Modeled after the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), CENTO committed the nations to mutual cooperation and protection, as well as non-intervention in each other's affairs. Its goal was to contain the Soviet Union by having a line of strong states along the USSR's southwestern frontier.” (bold characters supplied)

Therefore, in 1955, Pakistan was a member of CENTO, which was anti-USSR and therefore, can not be considered non-aligned…hence in 1956, it was technically ineligible to join NAM!

By definition!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEATO

“The Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO), created by the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty or the Manila Pact, was an international organization for collective defense established on September 8, 1954. It was primarily created to block further Communist gains in Southeast Asia. …The membership of SEATO reflected a mid-1950's combination of "out of area" powers and "in area" pro-Western nations. …
Pakistan was included not only because East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) was geographically close to Southeast Asia, but possibly because Pakistan was a member of the pro-Western CENTO alliance. Thus the pro-Western, anti-communist military alliances of the Mideast and Southeast Asia were linked by the membership of Pakistan in both.”

Therefore, in 1955, Pakistan was a member of SEATO, which was anti-USSR and therefore, can not be considered non-aligned…hence in 1956, it was technically ineligible to join NAM!

By definition!

Re: # 363
masadi wrote
"There is no escaping this "institution", no human society has ever been without it "

No wonder the human society is where they are today. Ready to wipe themselves out many times over.

Asadi,
It is not that they stole my chappel from the mosque that turned me away!
You can build a home without God, which my home is and some day you will build a society w/o God. God and religion are not essential.
I can understand your faith issues but I doubt that even sociology, an imperfect science that it is, supports religion in any form or shape.

Anyway, I have no interest in this debate it is mostly just ridiculous to worry about this book or that book. I have my own books. All books can be contradicted and no book contains the ultimate truth because that is not possible.The Quran is no exception. period!

HP "But I don't mind taking a few swipes at the religion as the institution which is nothing but a scarecrow here and there"

This generalization is what I take exception with. There is no escaping this "institution", no human society has ever been without it and generalization to all as "scarecrow" is also not right. If its not the "god" religion as has been understood then its a civil religion with all the bells and whistles of traditional religion without the name. You can either have this institution with its social integration purpose intact, based on rationality and fact- as the Quran aims to present it, or you can have the "scarecrows" or the "shop till you drop" mythologies. I don't think you do justice to Islam in this regard especially since instead of its content you rely on your experience with the ugly face of its proponents. Hamid will come around one of these days, till then I just enjoy watching (reading) him discredit himself whenever he tries to disparage Islam.

Asadi,

Okay, Yeah they were strong words but rest assured that the ugly face of the claimants has nothing to do with my thinking. I am just not in to the institution. I can separate religion from politics and I know who those ugly faces are. But I don't mind taking a few swipes at the religion as the institution which is nothing but a scarecrow here and there. It be Islam or any other one.

Read Hamid for some enlightened fun and just enjoy his posts instead of picking bones with him.

HP writes "I don’t give a schit to Islam and probably am more radical than Hamid when it comes following Mo or any other deity"

Once again, we expect such "schit" from fools like Hamid but not you. Islam neither is nor should be judged by the ugly face of claimants to its name, and any claimant to enlightenment should not be "radical" regarding anything but be open to the truth from whatever direction it might come.