Benazir Bhutto Killed in an Attack

#359 Posted by KaalChakra
“HP Boss, like ZAB, believes in a definite moderate and progressive Islam, which can give Pakistan its own (primarily geographical but partly religious in relation to India) identity and path to the future. In that view (now also shared by tahmed ji) the army becomes the primary, internal spoiler.”

As usual kaal it is hard for you read my posts and what I promote. I don’t give a schit to Islam and probably am more radical than Hamid when it comes following Mo or any other deity! So please spare people of your judgmental posts. (I am sorry I am just taking it out on you today!)

I don’t believe in religion and for that matter any one of them including your fav Hinduism which is not a religion but a mishmash of some idiotic rituals worst than what Islam supports.

I don’t support any religious identity for Pakistan. I think the country is there so why spoil it. I mean for sure I oppose going back to India which is a bigger hole than Pakistan but wouldn’t mind an independent Sindh; if I can get it after the biggest threat to Sindhudesh, BB is taken out by the army!
So try to build another profile in your head.

Masadi,
Just lighten up, will you!

masadi, these ARE different gurus, each with somewhat of a different perspective.

Hamidm actually does consider Islam (except the bhang drinking type) as the problem, and Saudi Arabia the fount of it all. HP Boss, like ZAB, believes in a definite moderate and progressive Islam, which can give Pakistan its own (primarily geographical but partly religious in relation to India) identity and path to the future. In that view (now also shared by tahmed ji) the army becomes the primary, internal spoiler.

For Pakistanis all these are important distinctions. For non-Pakistanis, more matters for us (to try) to understand.

HP writes "It will take you time to get a handle on Hamid's wisdom"

The sum total of Hamid's wisdom is found in a couple of GWB's speeches after 9/11, other than this his other obsession is to bypass historical events of the past 13 centuries and lay the blame on the prophet and Islam without knowing either or their place in the current political economy. Just because his sense of humor appeals to some does not mean they should attribute that to "wisdom". HP mian we expect better from you.

HP writes "It will take you time to get a handle on Hamid's wisdom"

The sum total of Hamid's wisdom is found in a couple of GWB's speeches after 9/11, other than this his other obsession is to bypass historical events of the past 13 centuries and lay the blame on the prophet and Islam without knowing either or their place in the current political economy. Just because his sense of humor appeals to some does not mean they should attribute that to "wisdom". HP mian we expect better from you.

Bubba,
It will take you time to get a handle on Hamid's wisdom. He is the Guru and what he says is right. You still don't understand the code words that he writes.

Open his interacts and read them since the time he came on chowk...I don't know when was that!

Re: # 347 Posted by HP on December 28, 2007 4:53:21 pm

HP, my friend, you are absolutely right to say that

[But of course we had Fuzair's guru the whores and dallay generals of the country breathing down his neck to block anything in the country until they got us where we are.]

And behind them, is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That country alone could have demanded from these dallay's to provide her the maximum security and not some rubbish BS story that is suited for the American peanut gallery.

HP, only you can bring Hamid mian's intellect back to where it rightfully belongs. Otherwise I am afraid, he is sliding towards irrelevency. Instead of calling everything under the sun as an event controlled and orchestrated by the US elite, he keeps of drumming the Pakistani bureaucratic party line of jihadis doing this and jihadis doing that.

#351 Posted by bjkumar

Another ignorant Gaddhaa. There was no cento and Seato in 1954. In 56 it was Baghdad pact which later became CENTO the seato came later.
from wiki
The Central Treaty Organization (also referred to as CENTO, original name was Middle East Treaty Organization or METO, also known as the Baghdad Pact) was adopted in 1955 by Iraq"

The Us was not even original member.
So technically Pakistan was non aligned then.

at least read something before writing nonsense.

Beej, as mortal enemies, it made sense for Indian to oppose Pakistan's entrance into NAM just as it was logical for Pakistan to oppose India's entry into OIC. The question for us is: Did ZAB launch his quite illustriouis and active pan-Islamist career largely because he felt alone, and left out by India, or NAM?

If historically, that's what happened, then sure, we ought to look at it.

HP, this is not an India-Pakistan thing at all. IMHO, Nehru did much worse for us...:(

Btw,
The OIC statement after the '74 conference in Lahore was more liberating or liberal than any NAM statement in the last ten years or so.

Mujib, Saadaat,Qadafi, Asad of Syria and Bhutto and a couple more were the radicals of that group. Where are they now?

#346 KaalChakra,

Pakistan had become a member of the CENTO, SEATO alliances by 1954. The non-aligned movement (NAM) – formally declared during the 1955 Bandung conference, followed right after. By its very definition, the NAM technically precluded any CENTO, SEATO members because of the overt US association. Had the Pakistanis been on good terms with the Indians, India would not have objected to their inclusion and nobody else would have cared. But Pakistan had already, by that time, developed a full-fledged Kashmir itch and was eager to raise that issue in one and all forums it could find – a tendency that persisted until the Kargil fiasco. India understandably did not want any of the Pakistani Kashmir-related theatrics, so it opposed Pakistani inclusion. Pakistan accomplished little through its long presence in the CENTO, SEATO and finally left those and was allowed to join the NAM in 1979.

"and I am genuinely keen to learn."

If you are keen to learn, go find yourself some books. NAM idea started about the same time or before Pakistan signed its first defense agreement with the US in 1954(i think) The Bundong conference never got going before 1955. Pakistan signed Baghdad Pact with Iraq and turkey in it in 1956. So on paper Pakistan was still non aligned except that we had some MF generals who though NAM wouldn't amount to much so they signed on with the US in 1956.(NAM later lost its charm due to changes in international politics and after the Sino India conflict and Nehru's death.)

The NAM of the 70s was just a pig with lipstick but Bhutto wanted to steal that lipstick to make him look good. when he did not get it, he went for the next thing which was OIC.

India too is not a pious piece of schit. It has it owns issues. Do you wanna discuss that?

slodhi sahib and HP

I only know of ZAB from what I have heard or read about him. He comes across as a politician of mythic stature and abilities who loved his people and was also loved by them. And he knew what would appeal to his people. What he personally believed is hard to say, except by a few who knew him very well, personally.

HP, sorry about that error. I did read somewhere ZAB saw military arms (the bomb in particular) in religious-civilizational terms and wrote about that from his jail cell. I don't have the reference though, so that could be wrong.

Re: # 345

What ZAB did was to awaken the masses. he knew how to connect to a crowd of over 100,000

He had the power to communicate. He meant to every man woman or child what they wanted to hear.

I remember as a kid, when my family use to go to attend the rally by ZAB. As a 5 year old I still remember that man on the stage. i had no clue what he was saying but I knew whatever it was it was good & true because I can see the truth in his eyes. Everyone believed in him. BB was not 1% of a leader what her dad was.

ZAB, JFK, Faisal & Sadat along with a few others were the casualty of the greed of the NEOCON CAPITALISTIC OIL & DEFENSE Apparatus.

Yes he brought Islam as a tool to the center satge, however his vision of Ummah was much different from the Sadistic Wahabi style Islam preached today by the KSA.

If he had lived long enogh things would have been different.

We are quick to say that ZAB did a lot of things against India, but we forget, He always looked & admired the Indian Commitment to democracy & he always tried to get attention of the big brother but the big brother never returned his gestures & he did what he did to piss of the Big Bro.

He strongly believed that India & Pakistan have a great future if they worked together.

Kaal,
the Islam hamara deen BS was part of ZAB's election manifesto. Islam as religion of state BS was part of every frigging constitution they wrote in Pakistan. Which they seemed to do with great reluctance or had Sharif peerzada conjure up the whole thing in his bathroom. Those were the pious statement writers.

No one is saying that ZAB was pious MF. He was a complete harami and I wish his daughter had reached at least a modicum of his success in Haramipan.

All those thing happened when when Bhutto was struggling to save his government from the army supported PNA alliance. So I don't blame him for trying to save his seat.

Bhutto never called it Islamic Bomb. It was a name given during Zia regime.

Just remember it was the same army that was opposing the bomb factory when Bhutto was working on it and the army supported the US pov.

Politicians do many things and often they have the uncanny ability to reverse themselves like the laloos of the world do all the time. So if we had the right pressure on ZAB he would have changed his mind. But of course we had Fuzair's guru the whores and dallay generals of the country breathing down his neck to block anything in the country until they got us where we are.

So stop posting things which have no context.

HP, you do know the history much better, and I am genuinely keen to learn.

By the time NAM came along, Pakistan was already fully aligned with the US, in military alliances. Was there any reason why Pakistan wanted to join the non-aligned movement?

Indeed, I know nothing about Pakistan not being able to join NAM only because of India. Please help.

HP, no doubt behind all or most of ZAB's Islamic efforts India played a role, but it was ZAB's vision and ZAB's ideals that enabled him to achieve what he did. ZAB was a real genius and a leader. He knew the pulse of his people. But please do correct if there are inaccuracies in what I wrote.

Irrespective of people's differing interpretations, we need to give ZAB his proper due place - in terms of what he objectively did or started or strengthened. IMO, Zia seems to get far too much play in Pakistani media and the great ZAB too little.