Tariq Ali December 28, 2007
#12 Posted by Tigram on December 30, 2007 9:04:18 pm
Re: # 10 i think amin has some intelligence background.
#11 Posted by tahmed32 on December 30, 2007 8:57:31 pm
#9 Amin sahib: I tried to follow the trail you provided, but found Sherlock Holmes groaning and tossing and turning in his grave, and so stopped to give him a pacifier and pat him back to sleep.
#10 Posted by rf786 on December 30, 2007 8:40:33 pm
Re: # 5
Nangapir,
You forgot to mention Nawaz Sharif, major beneficiary of this murder. Lets look at this perspective:
1. Main political opponent neutralized
2. Musharraf further discredited
3. Gujrat Chaudhries getting all the blame, eik theer so do shikaar ie kill two birds with one stone
4. West has no other choice but to look at this lamebrain
5. Saudi Arabia made happy
6. Islamic extremists also comfortable with NS
7. Punjab retains its supremacy
8. Pervaiz Kiyani has all the reason to intervene and hand over power to the sole surviving politician ie NS
Now how does that sound for minimum 50% probability.
Nangapir,
You forgot to mention Nawaz Sharif, major beneficiary of this murder. Lets look at this perspective:
1. Main political opponent neutralized
2. Musharraf further discredited
3. Gujrat Chaudhries getting all the blame, eik theer so do shikaar ie kill two birds with one stone
4. West has no other choice but to look at this lamebrain
5. Saudi Arabia made happy
6. Islamic extremists also comfortable with NS
7. Punjab retains its supremacy
8. Pervaiz Kiyani has all the reason to intervene and hand over power to the sole surviving politician ie NS
Now how does that sound for minimum 50% probability.
#9 Posted by pavocavalry on December 30, 2007 8:38:40 pm
The Kennedy style assassination of Benazir Bhuto is a major attempt,by forces who view the geopolitical scenario differently or have a vested interest or stake in the present political order in Pakistan , to render null and void the US plan to impose a civilian political leader in Pakistan who could deliver the goods and be effective in translating US policy goals into practice.In this statement lies the answer to who or who could have been behind this assassination plot.The USA since 9/11 has invested a considerable amount of funds in Pakistan in order to achieve their foreign policy aims.There has been a growing feeling in USA as well as its NATO allies that the Pakistani military junta was playing a kind of double game.That it was hunting with the hounds and running with the foxes.Further it was felt in the vest that the military junta of Pakistan lacked popular support and was more a liability than an asset .Without going into any conspiracy theories , even a layman can assess that there was someone ,may be an individual,a group , or a class who was not happy about the idea of power sharing with a person of Benazir’s stature or effectiveness.That she was regarded as the most serious potential threat once she had entered the corridors of power.If the above premise is accepted then any who is anything in Pakistan in the institutional or political sense could be a party in this assassination.The reason that they did so was that they feared that her policies would rock the boat and transform the power equation in a significant manner.A cursory glance at the assassination proves that it was a well planned affair and the planners had carefully studied the previous patterns of Benazir’s public addresses.The planners knew that a suicide blast was ineffective against a bullet proof vehicle.The planners knew that entire faith would have to be placed in the kinetic energy of the projectile released by a fire arm.The blast was aimed at removing the evidence i.e the person who fired the shots.Man as Machiavelli stated act out of necessity or choice.. In case of Benazir the assassinating group or persons acted out of necessity.They felt that she had to be physically removed.The premise for this decision was that she was the centre of gravity of the PPP and once she is off the scene any of her successors , even if they won the elections were good enough for business because they were more pliable and did not possess Benazir’s phenomenal intellect and political acumen.The perpetrators also did not foresee the type of popular backlash that took place after Benazir’s assassination.It may be theorized that Benazir’s assassination had two teams , one the apparent visible perpetrator group caught in the camera and scond an invisible actual perpetrator group in a 100 to 300 metre radius of the venue.The visible perpetrator group or the Suicide bomber and the gun slinger team was used to prove that this was an act of the bad dog Al Qaeda ! The gun shot was fired from a close range of less than 6 metres to ensure accuracy.Multiple shots were fired so that they could act as a cover up for sniper shots by causing confusion.Now the question of the suicide bombers and the assassin who fired the gunshots.These clowns are not difficult to find in Pakistan.These can be enrolled by any intelligence agency operatives who penetrate an extremist organization disguised as motivated soldiers of Islam.The technique was perfected by the Czarist Okhrana and this concept was known as agent provocateur.It has also been stated that suicide bombers families are paid between 5 to 10 million rupees.In a nutshell the suicide team was used to give the whole affair an Al Qaeda look.The most crucial part of the assassination could have been the sniper group well deployed in any of the surrounding buildings in a 500 metre radius.Present day sniper rifles are fully silenced like the VSS Russian Sniper Rifle having a fully silenced and flashless range of 100 metres. And the AS silent sniper rifle which can penetrate even a bullet proof jacket at 400 metres range.Evidence was very swiftly destroyed and no post mortem carried out so the caliber of bullet that did the fatal job is not discovered.Benazir’s assassination was a perfection of the Liaquat Ali Khan assassination carried out in the same venue 56 years back.At that time suicide bombing had not been introduced so the evidence i.e the gun man was not destroyed.That went against the intelligence agencies of that time as the assassin was a paid operative of a Pakistani civilian intelligence agency.The group or the people who organized this assassination learnt from that faux pas and made sure in this case that the main evidence i.e the evident perpetrators were destroyed.The significance of this assassination lies in the fact that Benazir’s party is far better organized than the Muslim League that Liaquat Ali Khan led and that Benazir was a popular leader whose party had won three elections conducted on popular franchise, The significance of this assassination lies in the fact that Pakistan is a far more aware society than in 1951.We hope that Benazir assassination will act as a major catalyst in restoring democracy to Pakistan.The fatal shots have been fired.The forces who want to preserve the status quo have played their turn .Now the initiative to counter attack or to change the status quo is with the PPP provided it has a leader who has resolution to do so ! Now it is the game of greater resolve.The Goddess of victory favours those who are audacious !
#8 Posted by bulleya on December 30, 2007 8:15:54 pm
"The People's party founded by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was built by the......to topple the country's first military dictator...."
ppp has been an interesting combination of polar opposites....it, initially (and to some extent, still) is made up of four groups, from the opposite ends of the spectrum: feudals, pirs, leftists and intellectuals - the first two on one side and the later two on the other side, ideologically.......feudals and leftists hate each other.....as do pirs and intellectuals.......
....these four groups came together, initially, because of zulfikar bhutto......he was a big feudal (though not the biggest).....he was not a pir, but the pir/feudal constituency is the same (actually pirs are more powerful than feudals in ppp)....bhutto was an intellectual and was, thus, able to attract all the lawyers and other intellectuals.....his agenda was leftist, hence he attracted them......
.....this group survived for a while, and till today, each one considers bhutto their leader, while ignoring his other aspects......leftitst (masadi) likes him, intellectual (aitezaz) likes him, and of course, feudals/pirs worship him.....
........however, this combination could not last too long......eventually, bhutto had to chose which way he was to lean......and he leaned, overwhelmingly, towards the feudals/pirs.......due to this, the leadership has always been with his family, and the second tier, has always been feudals and pirs.....what are the odds of a leftist or intellectual leading ppp?.....very little....
......in addition, ppp added two more feathers to its cap...its agenda is quite liberal, hence it attracted them, as a counterweight to maulvis......even though, the feudal/pir culture is far more regressive than the maulvi culture.....hence this has always been hypocricy......
....it also established itself as the premier anti-establishment party......this has been quite genuine.....ironically, bhutto was, himself, a product of the ayub khan regime....where he built his career......he only started taking on the army, after he advised pakistan to get into the 65 war and then blamed the army for giving up on kashmir, and parted ways......
ppp also opposed the biggest leftist movement in the history of pakistan.......i.e. the rise of east pakistan, under mujeeb.......bhutto, along with the army, entered pakistan into another war.....1971.....bhutto refused to accepted mujeeb as the leader, which led to the breakup of the country.....
more importantly, it saved his main constituency - feudal/pirs - from the revolution that would have occured, had the more proletariat bengalis taken over the country, for the first time in its history......
....ppp is, now, almost all feudal/pir....its intellectuals/leftists are still hanging onto it, to some extent, because their is really no other politcal home for them, anywhere else......and because they are still nostalgiac about the initial home they found, under zab, and are in a state of denial that it was a fake home.....
......in my opinion, the intellectual and leftist wing of ppp needs to break off and form its own urban party.....led by aitezaz ahsan type of people.....there is enough know-how in pakistan's urban circles to support such a progressive party.......i think it would do well in urban politics......in addition, it could join up with urban progressive parties, on the conservative side (like pti) and have quite a few common agendas......
.....unfortunately, people seem more interested in the bhutto name than anything else.....even the intellectuals and the leftists......this will be their downfall......because, even they are now having difficulty defending anything the ppp does......
ppp has been an interesting combination of polar opposites....it, initially (and to some extent, still) is made up of four groups, from the opposite ends of the spectrum: feudals, pirs, leftists and intellectuals - the first two on one side and the later two on the other side, ideologically.......feudals and leftists hate each other.....as do pirs and intellectuals.......
....these four groups came together, initially, because of zulfikar bhutto......he was a big feudal (though not the biggest).....he was not a pir, but the pir/feudal constituency is the same (actually pirs are more powerful than feudals in ppp)....bhutto was an intellectual and was, thus, able to attract all the lawyers and other intellectuals.....his agenda was leftist, hence he attracted them......
.....this group survived for a while, and till today, each one considers bhutto their leader, while ignoring his other aspects......leftitst (masadi) likes him, intellectual (aitezaz) likes him, and of course, feudals/pirs worship him.....
........however, this combination could not last too long......eventually, bhutto had to chose which way he was to lean......and he leaned, overwhelmingly, towards the feudals/pirs.......due to this, the leadership has always been with his family, and the second tier, has always been feudals and pirs.....what are the odds of a leftist or intellectual leading ppp?.....very little....
......in addition, ppp added two more feathers to its cap...its agenda is quite liberal, hence it attracted them, as a counterweight to maulvis......even though, the feudal/pir culture is far more regressive than the maulvi culture.....hence this has always been hypocricy......
....it also established itself as the premier anti-establishment party......this has been quite genuine.....ironically, bhutto was, himself, a product of the ayub khan regime....where he built his career......he only started taking on the army, after he advised pakistan to get into the 65 war and then blamed the army for giving up on kashmir, and parted ways......
ppp also opposed the biggest leftist movement in the history of pakistan.......i.e. the rise of east pakistan, under mujeeb.......bhutto, along with the army, entered pakistan into another war.....1971.....bhutto refused to accepted mujeeb as the leader, which led to the breakup of the country.....
more importantly, it saved his main constituency - feudal/pirs - from the revolution that would have occured, had the more proletariat bengalis taken over the country, for the first time in its history......
....ppp is, now, almost all feudal/pir....its intellectuals/leftists are still hanging onto it, to some extent, because their is really no other politcal home for them, anywhere else......and because they are still nostalgiac about the initial home they found, under zab, and are in a state of denial that it was a fake home.....
......in my opinion, the intellectual and leftist wing of ppp needs to break off and form its own urban party.....led by aitezaz ahsan type of people.....there is enough know-how in pakistan's urban circles to support such a progressive party.......i think it would do well in urban politics......in addition, it could join up with urban progressive parties, on the conservative side (like pti) and have quite a few common agendas......
.....unfortunately, people seem more interested in the bhutto name than anything else.....even the intellectuals and the leftists......this will be their downfall......because, even they are now having difficulty defending anything the ppp does......
#7 Posted by masadi on December 30, 2007 6:55:09 pm
Fuzair writes "I assume Tariq Ali, being the last of the great, red-hot Trotskyites, hates Maulana Bhashani for being a Maoist"
I'm pretty sure Tariq Ali is talking about the "West" part, nevertheless the PPP and Bhutto phenomena regarding the peasantry was unique in both parts given the Feudal depth of the West (lacking in the East) and the lack of the ethnicity component of the movement.
I'm pretty sure Tariq Ali is talking about the "West" part, nevertheless the PPP and Bhutto phenomena regarding the peasantry was unique in both parts given the Feudal depth of the West (lacking in the East) and the lack of the ethnicity component of the movement.
#6 Posted by teshah on December 30, 2007 6:43:23 pm
No, dear Tariq, Pakistan is a 'county' meant only for the Muslims, i.e., those who 'submit and enjoy'. BB was killed as, in the words both of Amin Fahim and Cheema, she had 'stood up'. We Pakies are caught in a 'Mulla-Military' cross-fire, albeit, friendly. It is the 'Taghuti' mafia which is ruling us today, Mush sitting safe in the Amy House and Usama, Beitullah and their ilk in their mountain holds. And the Chief, in Washington. As it is, we are veritably caught between the deep sea and the devil with no hope to get out except by the bloodshed which may destroy the very existence of Pakistan as a state.
#5 Posted by NangaPir on December 30, 2007 6:37:02 pm
Who Killed Benazir Bhutto – Beyond Conspiracies
Nanga Pir
1. No autopsy was performed. No post mortem. Yet the army Brigadier declared that she was killed when she banged her head on some metallic hook? How he or some doctor concluded this without any medical procedure? Further, within hours Bait Ullah Masoud name was announced. They have recording of conversation. CIA authenticates Al Qaeda tapes after few days. How come Pakistan army had readymade answer? Give this tape to an engineer and other Baitullaha’s tapes and ask him/her to do some signal processing. It is like DNA to catch a thief. Further, tribes live by their traditions without any fear of consequences. Why they would lie. So there is 50% chance that ISI killed Benazir. Keep in mind ISI still runs suicide bombers. General Abbasi and General Hamid Gul both are working on militant sides. ISI have mullahs who receive hefty money and they have children at their disposal for scarify. There was a meeting going on in Washington for two weeks to adjust things after election in the region. Hamid Karzai met Bhutto a night before her death and she was on her way to meet two American officials. They all were searching an alternate to Mushraff and you can do the rest of math. Probability of ISI or pr(ISI) = 50%.
2. Nuclear Mafia. There is still a multi billion nuclear mafia on the loose with over 80% from Pakistan army. They did not like Bhutto’s new plan. She was never allowed to visit Kahuta whereas Saudi minister was allowed. pr(nm)=10%.
3. Siphe Sahaba: They had deep hatred about her. Sipha Sahaba is funded by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to carry out different operations. One is to counter Iran’s influence by attacking Shias. This part is also supported by Israel as retaliation. But Bhutto was a “wrong” example for Arabian women who are not allowed to drive. pr(ss)=10%
4. Chaudhary brothers. Chaudahry Zahoor Elahi requested Zia to gift him pen which Zia used to reject Z. A. Bhutto’s death sentence. Then Al-Zulfiqar killed Zahoor Elahi. Now it was retaliation. pr(cb)= 5%
5. Al-Qaeda for obvious reasons. pr(AQ)=5%.
6. CIA of course to pave the road to cleanse Pakistan of nuclear weapons pr(CIA)=5%
7. Sikh-Kashmiri nexus. Benazir gave all Khalsa movement names to Rajiv Ghandi and also backstabbed Kashmiris. Pr(SK)=5%
8. Zardari factor. He did not allow autopsy as it would be insult. She was dead. Jamiat Islami had her dance videos all over internet. Why a live dance is ok and dead is dishonor. Pr(ZF)=5%
9. Mohajir. Definitely it would derail their nexus with Mushraff. They had a track record of fascism in Karachi. I would give them pr(mf)=5%.
10. Independent remnants of Lal Masjid pr(LM)=5%.
In conclusion if I toss a coin, the head would indicate ISI. The tail would be all others. However, if the coin stands on its corner then I would say she banged her head against some iron handle. This is my story and I stick with it.
Nanga Pir
1. No autopsy was performed. No post mortem. Yet the army Brigadier declared that she was killed when she banged her head on some metallic hook? How he or some doctor concluded this without any medical procedure? Further, within hours Bait Ullah Masoud name was announced. They have recording of conversation. CIA authenticates Al Qaeda tapes after few days. How come Pakistan army had readymade answer? Give this tape to an engineer and other Baitullaha’s tapes and ask him/her to do some signal processing. It is like DNA to catch a thief. Further, tribes live by their traditions without any fear of consequences. Why they would lie. So there is 50% chance that ISI killed Benazir. Keep in mind ISI still runs suicide bombers. General Abbasi and General Hamid Gul both are working on militant sides. ISI have mullahs who receive hefty money and they have children at their disposal for scarify. There was a meeting going on in Washington for two weeks to adjust things after election in the region. Hamid Karzai met Bhutto a night before her death and she was on her way to meet two American officials. They all were searching an alternate to Mushraff and you can do the rest of math. Probability of ISI or pr(ISI) = 50%.
2. Nuclear Mafia. There is still a multi billion nuclear mafia on the loose with over 80% from Pakistan army. They did not like Bhutto’s new plan. She was never allowed to visit Kahuta whereas Saudi minister was allowed. pr(nm)=10%.
3. Siphe Sahaba: They had deep hatred about her. Sipha Sahaba is funded by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to carry out different operations. One is to counter Iran’s influence by attacking Shias. This part is also supported by Israel as retaliation. But Bhutto was a “wrong” example for Arabian women who are not allowed to drive. pr(ss)=10%
4. Chaudhary brothers. Chaudahry Zahoor Elahi requested Zia to gift him pen which Zia used to reject Z. A. Bhutto’s death sentence. Then Al-Zulfiqar killed Zahoor Elahi. Now it was retaliation. pr(cb)= 5%
5. Al-Qaeda for obvious reasons. pr(AQ)=5%.
6. CIA of course to pave the road to cleanse Pakistan of nuclear weapons pr(CIA)=5%
7. Sikh-Kashmiri nexus. Benazir gave all Khalsa movement names to Rajiv Ghandi and also backstabbed Kashmiris. Pr(SK)=5%
8. Zardari factor. He did not allow autopsy as it would be insult. She was dead. Jamiat Islami had her dance videos all over internet. Why a live dance is ok and dead is dishonor. Pr(ZF)=5%
9. Mohajir. Definitely it would derail their nexus with Mushraff. They had a track record of fascism in Karachi. I would give them pr(mf)=5%.
10. Independent remnants of Lal Masjid pr(LM)=5%.
In conclusion if I toss a coin, the head would indicate ISI. The tail would be all others. However, if the coin stands on its corner then I would say she banged her head against some iron handle. This is my story and I stick with it.
#4 Posted by fuzair on December 30, 2007 5:30:38 pm
"The People's party founded by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was built by the activists of the only popular mass movement the country has known: "
I assume Tariq Ali, being the last of the great, red-hot Trotskyites, hates Maulana Bhashani for being a Maoist. I also assume he hates the ANP for being (originally at least) somewhat pro-Moscow. This is the only reason that I can think of why he feels free to give Bhutto the accolade for being the first, if not the only, popular politician in Pakistan. Maulana Bhashani, among other things, was also the creator of the Awami League, no doubt an insignificant party compared to the glorious PPP.
The legacy of the Bhuttos and the PPP is, at best, a mixed one. We need an objective analysis and not just eulogies. While it is too soon after her brutal killing to begin such an analysis, I see no need to paint the PPP as being better than it was/is.
I assume Tariq Ali, being the last of the great, red-hot Trotskyites, hates Maulana Bhashani for being a Maoist. I also assume he hates the ANP for being (originally at least) somewhat pro-Moscow. This is the only reason that I can think of why he feels free to give Bhutto the accolade for being the first, if not the only, popular politician in Pakistan. Maulana Bhashani, among other things, was also the creator of the Awami League, no doubt an insignificant party compared to the glorious PPP.
The legacy of the Bhuttos and the PPP is, at best, a mixed one. We need an objective analysis and not just eulogies. While it is too soon after her brutal killing to begin such an analysis, I see no need to paint the PPP as being better than it was/is.
#3 Posted by slodhi on December 30, 2007 4:14:01 pm
Masadi, here's what I see.
The external powers will always interfere in our business due to the geopolitical position of Indo-Pak.
However, in India the US, Russians & Chinese want to dictate their order but they have to do it on the terms of Indian politicians. & most Indian politicians will make the decision based on what's in the best interest of their country, their party & themselves. That's because India is a democracy.
In the fiefdom of Pakistan the same powers can dictate whatever to our politicians and our leaders make the decision based on is it good for me, my party & who gives the f$%^ to the country.
The external powers will always interfere in our business due to the geopolitical position of Indo-Pak.
However, in India the US, Russians & Chinese want to dictate their order but they have to do it on the terms of Indian politicians. & most Indian politicians will make the decision based on what's in the best interest of their country, their party & themselves. That's because India is a democracy.
In the fiefdom of Pakistan the same powers can dictate whatever to our politicians and our leaders make the decision based on is it good for me, my party & who gives the f$%^ to the country.
#2 Posted by masadi on December 30, 2007 3:27:23 pm
In addition to #1, for you power holders wannabes, the promise of "submit and enjoy" even though backed by the assurances of the Shaitan which the fools readily accept, is no assurance that they will not "blow your head off". The best bet therefore for even the weak of resolve is to struggle for the truth.
#1 Posted by masadi on December 30, 2007 3:24:59 pm
TA writes "She changed again after becoming prime minister. In the early days, we would argue and in response to my numerous complaints - all she would say was that the world had changed"
The world hadn't changed it was the same old sh** but the constraits sure had. It is one thing to solve issues hypothetically assuming no constraits will be found, quite another to operate under the shadow of the military/colonial/feudal nexus and be given the choice of submit and enjoy or get your head blown off. She chose the easy path because she was no ZAB.
The world hadn't changed it was the same old sh** but the constraits sure had. It is one thing to solve issues hypothetically assuming no constraits will be found, quite another to operate under the shadow of the military/colonial/feudal nexus and be given the choice of submit and enjoy or get your head blown off. She chose the easy path because she was no ZAB.
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