Courage in a Time of Chaos

Re: # 14

Yes, true. Even people who disliked her policies still feel it was an untimely death.

Bina_Shah #: ..i have actually spent quite a bit of time in feudal areas......

you never answered my questions, hence i am asking them again:


what are your views on feudalism?.......do you think it is the cause of various problems in pakistan: let's start suppression of women and honor killings......

or do you think it is a good thing, from which its beneficiaries should continue to benefit, as feudalism is in pakistan's interest, as a whole?......

is benefitting from feudalism a sin?.....or is there nothing wrong with it?....does it lead to equitable opportunty for peasants, or does in suppress them?

Re: # 27 First of all bina I would like to clarify that this is not a personal attack on you or anybody else, …you posted something & I just wanted answers on some questions circling inside my head you said “I am interested in supporting the people of Pakistan. I believe in education. This is why I have been teaching at the university level in Pakistan for the last year and will continue to do so.”
From what I know you teach in a private institution at graduate level. What have you done in terms of education for the people of your own village? Have you set up a school & I don`t mean any shabby school. I meant a proper school imparting education of that standard which you received, which would open their minds enable them to think for themselves & empower them to do something else rather than toiling on the fields.

“And where I live, little girls don't work in the fields. Nor do little boys. You've got some romanticized idea of what the interior is like - have you ever been there to see it?” This is not true. What`s happening in our villages is crystal clear just like what`s happening in our cities.

Neem Boo aka Saminasha,
Please grow up and stop all those red flags. If you have something to say, please state your opinion. Bush-whacking is not becoming on a lady. :)

Agar hota Mirza khuda ka nabi
Gir kar na marta tatti mein kabhi

Wileythecoyote #36 {"the losses from the chaos amount 400bn rupees, thats 5bnusd if imnot wrong,:}

Wiley,
I hope that this is an exaggeration. However, if I were the Government of Pakistan, I would jail the entire PPP leadership from Zardari to the workers, supporters, and goons for the wanton destrucion and loss of life. I would not release them until all victims had been compensated by these hooligans who never uttered a word to stop their workers from rioting. Perhaps some of the $1.5B stash can be brought back to offset the losses. Wasn't BB accused by the Swiss of being a washerwoman of sorts?

Kala Harry #35 {"Salim, did your people teach the Sindhi girls how to make a proper Paan also? The kind of arrogance your post reeks is unbelievable. First impose your stupid language on the natives, and then have the balls to tell them to learn it."}

Kala Harry,
Actually, my female relatives taught the Sindhi girls both Urdu and English, you know the language that was imposed on your false prophet by the English whose boots he liked to lick. Yes, my people did teach them against listening to false messiahs too - and something about not chewing paan too forcefully in the privy. :)

Re: #37 {"Re: # 35 lolz "}

Pity that we couldn't impose our stupid language on the really needy. :) LOLZ

Re: # 35

lolz

the losses from the chaos amount 400bn rupees, thats 5bnusd if imnot wrong, exactly the money mushhy baba, got from the us of a to counter terror!
in my village in south india, there is a saying " the money got gambling ,got spent in the brothel"

Re #33 Salim, did your people teach the Sindhi girls how to make a proper Paan also? The kind of arrogance your post reeks is unbelievable. First impose your stupid language on the natives, and then have the balls to tell them to learn it.

Re: # 28 Thanks Salim C for your kind words. Honestly I am wrong more times than right.
Yourself, mr. Masadi,Major P.Cavalary, DM ,Hamid ,ylh .hp are contributing lot for my understanding.
Long term horizon we will be faced more with national ethinic problems and time will only tell if leadership arises to meet challenges.
Have good afternoon.

Romair,
As for the exploitation of rural Sindhis, I remember women of my extended family in Karachi were always interested in teaching Sindhi girls and boys of their servants how to read and write. This was done in spite of the parents, especially the men. They felt that teaching girls to read and write would make it hard for them to get married. :(
If Mohajirs really hated Sindhis, then these Mohajir women would never force education on their Muslim sisters. I am sure that the Mojo women had better things to do - beauty salons, bridge games, or their favorite pastime - gossip.

Why do I want to say that the real enemies of the Sindhis were and are their own cruel exploiters - the Sindhi Vaderas?

{"#15 Posted by Tigram on December 30, 2007 9:11:05 pm
Re: # 14 i think you have a point .Compare Punjab in 1947 with Sindh.The Punjabis on both sides Indian and Pakistan made sure that all Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs were killed down to not yet born babies while Sindh was peaceful.Very few Hindus migrated from Sindh."}

Tigram friend,
Will you please let Hypo Chacha Al Butteesi know about this? He is going around posting disinformation that immigrants from India arrived in Sindh to loot and kill Hindus in Sindh. Thank you for stating that you are a Baluchi Hindu - I am pleased to learn about your background and thankful that not everything is lost in Pakistan. I feel that the departure of Hindus was the main tragic catalyst that removed our diversity and made us all look alike and at each other's throats.

Romair #24, {"and how in the world do all of them get admission into ivy league schools.....and why in the world, once they get, do they not study the tougher subjects like medicine, comp. sci etc...."}

Romair,
From what I have heard some elders say, Mr. Ten Percent's sister went to Agha Khan and became a doctor many years ago.

#27 Bina Shah {"The rioters and looters are just criminals - not a matter of ethnicity. Everyone knows what's going on here as far as that's concerned."}

Bina,
I have great respect for your education, talents, and accomplishment. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade - even if the shovel is from one's own garage. :)

Romair,
Throughout this article you have stated some very informative and logical points. Your questions posed to Bina are also very valid. While I respect Bina for her education, her talents, and her articles, I am perplexed that she did not outright reject feudalism as necessary in these times.
As you know very well, a great many feduals, e.g. zamindars, came to Pakistan as Mohajirs. Of course, not being able to indulge in their traditional family business, they used their administrative and organizational skills in government and commerce in the major urban centers of Sindh.

I think that there is a great future for feudals if they let go of their habit of bloodsucking. :) I say that as a descendant of zamindars, a hated profession that my grandfather left and never looked back.

#9 Posted by ahmedmadani on December 30, 2007 2:14:37 pm
{"Re: # 7 romair you have described correctly social situation . country has become stagnant pool of feudals. one person can not clean this mess,they go to other clean pond, usa , west, middle east etc. every body who can leaves, these are good ambitious people , cream of pakistan. ..before g we were lucky as many hindustani ambitious muslims left for freign country, pakistan. that kept feudal backward minded peoples country alive by addition of hindustony muslims which brought up social iq. then they started leaving and more calamity started even more backward like jungli tribals of afghanis poured and changed b stan and nwfp. now these jungli tribals influence everthing. it is like weed invading normal crops ...when liquit khan was killed hindustani muslims did not went on rumpage. while feudals sindis just went on burning , like mad men and that was for saddist fun.really they wanted to blame mqm but there was no smoking gun. central leadership of mqm was afraid to stop violence due to possible pouring gas on fire and giving reason for sindhis to make riot. anyway now we have god bilawal, praise bilawal. "}

Madani Sahib,
I am an avid fan of your keen perception and how you call it like it is - regardless of where the blame falls. You are my hero when it comes to understanding Pakistani matters. Please continue with your refreshingly honest viewpoint. I agree with you even when you disagree with me, sir. :) Thanks.

The rioters and looters are just criminals - not a matter of ethnicity. Everyone knows what's going on here as far as that's concerned.

Bulleya: your questions bore me. Go and ask Fatima Bhutto her life story; I haven't got a clue.

And where I live, little girls don't work in the fields. Nor do little boys. You've got some romanticized idea of what the interior is like - have you ever been there to see it?

lemon #23: "Bulleya, not nice or even fair..."

let me give you an example.....amin fahim may well become the next pm of pakistan.....he is a big time feudal and pir (doubly dangerous)......the guy, allegedly, has four sister married to the quran....southern punjab and sindhi feudalism is soaked in the worst women's rights violations.....orders of magnitude worse than what maulvis do.....i cannot see a mukhtaran mai type incidence happening in ji's territory.....

now suppose, amin fahim starts preaching women's rights and writes about it.......what would you think?......shouldn't charity begin at home......shouldn't he look in the mirror first.......

lemon #8: "also, there are some ivy league and public uni grads who do a lot of good work. the questions are always about service and proven records of credibility"

it's great to go to ivy league schools.....many of these graduates do great work.....what is wrong is to go there on the backs of young peasant girls who work in the fields, and will never be able to go to harvard, themselves......what is even worse is to, then, turn around and start writing about social injustice........

however, i could, maybe, tolerate feudalism, however, i simply cannot tolerate poor literature!........

Bina_Shah #: "To answer your question, I am indeed from a feudal background."

what are your views on feudalism?.......do you think it is the cause of various problems in pakistan: let's start suppression of women and honor killings......

or do you think it is a good thing, from which its beneficiaries should continue to benefit, as feudalism is in pakistan's interest, as a whole?......

is benefitting from feudalism a sin?.....or is there nothing wrong with it?....does it lead to equitable opportunty for peasants, or does in suppress them?

any answer other than, "feudalism is generally bad, but there are good feudals, and we are one of them,".....more interested in feudalism as a social system....

p.s. why do girls with feudal backgrounds write mediocre english poetry and books and articles....apparently, fatima bhutto went to columbia and published poetry at a young age....and she writes in the news...

isn't it bad enough that they are torturing us with their feudalism......must they torture us with their literature skills also.....

and how in the world do all of them get admission into ivy league schools.....and why in the world, once they get, do they not study the tougher subjects like medicine, comp. sci etc......

Hey Bina, Bulleya,

My questions were asked without ulterior motive-I don't know the backgrounds of most of the writers here, nor do I think one's background dictates one's labor, committment and dedication towards movement/nation building. In reading your responses, in hindsight, I have realized that I missed the subtext of Bulleya's comments, with which I do not agree.

Bina, your work is clearly excellent and in service of admirable goals that I share. Bulleya, not nice or even fair.

Also, any stats on the looters/rioters in terms of ethnic background, nabe, political affiliations, class, etc.?

Sometime back I watched a bbc documentary about a sindhi feudal girl in Karachi.
She lived quite a liberal life in Karachi but, when she went to her ancestral feudal landholding she wore more traditional cloths.

“The enemies of our country are vast and they are clever”…There are no enemies of our country. There is only one enemy & he shamelessly calls himself a Pakistani & says that whatever he does is for “the well being of Pakistan”whereas his actions have made 2007 the worst in the history of Pakistan. The funny way in which the investigation of this hideous incident is being carried out & the quick way in which the blame is being put on others leaves no doubt in the minds of the people about the perperators of this crime. The criminal is so thirsty for power that he doesn`t even take time to think about the effects his actions will have on others.

“As of last night, mobs took to the street and burned cars, smashed shops, looted, and raged. Every citizen is hurt and lost and looking for direction.”…This tells that our country is on the verge of a mass nervous breakdown.
I just want to say “We are and we have always been our own greatest enemy”

"The enemies of our country are vast and they are clever; they would like nothing better than to see us sink into lawlessness and despair."

Typical feudal words that instil fear in the minds of people that strip their courage, rationality and make them seek you for protection.

sir , the west pakistanis particularly the punjabis terrorised the hindus into accepting separate electorates so that they could manipulate them en bloc

Tigram:
In the beginning it was so called Mohajir/Punjabi nexus which shaped the policies.
Bengalis were Dalits anyway for us. We did not differentiate between Hindu and Muslim Bengali as far as our treatment of them is concerned. And we treated them as such. It was only Indian Army which helped us realize our shortcomings.

Re: # 16 i think hat this problem started from 1947.Even Liaquat feared the Bengalis and specially Suharwardy who he did not allow to take oath of the East Bengal Assembly.Thus he delayed constitution making.Remember that first general elections were only held in 1970.As a Baloch Hindu i can say that West Pakis led by Punjabis terrorised Bengali Hindus into accepting seaparte electorates so that they could be coerced as a group by West Paki Punjabi dominated intelligence agencies.

ex army men:
No wonder Pakistan lost with disgrace in 1971.

Re: # 14 i think you have a point .Compare Punjab in 1947 with Sindh.The Punjabis on both sides Indian and Pakistan made sure that all Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs were killed down to not yet born babies while Sindh was peaceful.Very few Hindus migrated from Sindh.Th same happened in Bengal where Hindus were not attacked on the Pakistan side.Now compare Bengal in 1971.Its all situational.100 marks to Bina Shah.

To answer your question, I am indeed from a feudal background. I do live in Karachi, I have studied at an Ivy League university, and I have written articles in the Friday Times about the suppression of women in Pakistan. I have even gone on to publish four "mediocre" books in English.

I have no political ambitions. I am not interested in "ruling" anyone.

I am interested in supporting the people of Pakistan. I believe in education. This is why I have been teaching at the university level in Pakistan for the last year and will continue to do so.

I am not a spokesperson for any political party, including the PPP. Therefore I did not write a "political" article, nor would I be comfortable commenting on last night's conference or the handing over of the leadership reins to Benazir's son.

I can say, however, that the looting and rampaging that has taken place in Karachi and Sindh over the last three days has been perpetrated by criminal elements of all ethnic persuasions.

A hundred and fifty vandals entered the Edhi Home on the Superhighway and beat up the inmates, including orphans and disabled people. They also smashed ambulances which were menat to go to the interior of Sindh. They did not steal anything. They simply indulged in their urge for violence.

A psychiatrist was asked about these events and he stated, very intelligently I might add, that human beings are capable of the worst types of violence. Without social control, they can do anything.

I think you'll find this is true of any person, no matter what ethnicity or nationality or religion she or he holds.

BENAZIR BRUTALLY ASSASSINATED, screaming headlines, babbling reporters, various "close friends" opinionating in interviews, public shock, rage, grief, confusion, chaos, burning buildings and smashed cars....same scenario repeating itself when an entrenched leader goes down. One has to acknowledge her raw courage in returning for the elections in the face of sure threats and danger, whatever the reasons behind that.
Or did she have the mind set of a soldier in a war who has to keep going forward by telling himself "it won't happen to me, the bullets will get those around me but not me," till the final moment when the bull/shell/whatever with his name on it takes him down???
After the emotions, good, bad, indifferent, have poured out she will be a part of history and will be judged for what she did when she lead, rather than by the tragic nature of her death.That will be the epitaph for Benazir, just as it is for anybody who lead any country's people.

Masadi & Bulleya

You both have some good points.

Here's my $0.02

PPP has really treated pakistan like a fiefdom this time around. They were a party based on principles at some point in time but no more.

For a party this big & with true roots in the people, it was stupid to ignore senior leadership like Fahim or Aitezaz.

The party just proved that it does not itself belief in the principles it preach.

It is amazing to see that majority (not all) of the PPP follower actually do believe in the higher principle of democracy. That IS the reason that PPP is still strong compare to any other party even PML, whose followers were not that much of a believer in their ideology. Moreover the ideology of division based on Hindu Muslim was very weak if not flawed, cos it died right after Pak was created & lost all the charm.

The leaders of PPP underestimated the power of those higher principle & today by nominating Mr 10% & Son, Inc. infact insulted the common follower & of PPP.

These followers would have followed Aitezaz or Fahim just as much as they will Mr10%.

Shame on BB, PPP leadership, Shame on Aitezaz & Amin Fahim if they agree to this & Shame on all who decide to stay with PPP from now on.

I am glad that I am not a part of that inheritable jaidad called people of Pakistan anymore. God Bless Pakistan & the maal maweeshi people who live in it.

bulleya writes "in pakistan's case, this is a fiefdom.....much different from a dynasty "

Once again, clueless generalizations that are the hallmark for military apologists of Pakistan. The PPP was an anomaly, it was not the same colonial/feudal nexus that defined the politics of the MAJ. It was something new in that it awakened the masses to their rights and their worth, contrary to the feudal image of them. What is happening at the top, the manipulation of the Bhutto name is for the purpose of managing the powerbase of the party, the people, whose support for the party was located not in the name of Bhutto but in the socialistic principles he embodied and struggled for. Benazir coopted her father's principles and reverted to the colonial/feudal nexus of the past in large reason due to the fate she saw her father suffer and (and bulleya deliberately evades this connection) that all political players have to operate under the shadow of the Pakistan Army, which by the way as an instituion operates in a monarchial way moreso than what any feudal can muster, considering the country to be its papa's Jagir to be taken over, used and abused at will. Right now the ppp has been hijacked by Zardari and his alliance with the military/US PML-Q faction. I wouldn't be surprised if he conspired using trusted insiders to get rid of the BB.

# 4, well recieved observations. What has happened is truly bizarre. It seems Zardari was using his son as a trojan horse... Zardari probably felt too insecure to go it alone on his own steam.

Interjecting Bilal as 'bloodline' chairman is an insult to people like Aitizaz (whether Aitizaz will admit it or not).

Re: # 7 romair you have described correctly social situation . country has become stagnant pool of feudals. one person can not clean this mess,they go to other clean pond, usa , west, middle east etc. every body who can leaves, these are good ambitious people , cream of pakistan. then they maay come back pick up good men and women and they are gone.before g we were lucky as many hindustani ambitious muslims left for freign country, pakistan. that kept feudal backward minded peoples country alive by addition of hindustony muslims which brought up social iq. then they started leaving and more calamity started even more backward like jungli tribals of afghanis poured and changed b stan and nwfp. now these jungli tribals influence everthing. it is like weed invading normal crops and interaction is bad. feudals dominate urbans. one pakistani friend of mine said in usa like nice white people marry africans, or pakistani marrying white children always look dark pakistani, never as good as real white. its world rule bad is powerful than good. this feudal thing is going up. when liquit khan was killed hindustani muslims did not went on rumpage. while feudals sindis just went on burning , like mad men and that was for saddist fun.really they wanted to blame mqm but there was no smoking gun. central leadership of mqm was afraid to stop violence due to possible pouring gas on fire and giving reason for sindhis to make riot. anyway now we have god bilawal, praise bilawal. It appears dam is mountain can npt be bkoken lots of sediment accumilating. Inretropect Nehru did good for india leading to socially stirring up of society and leading to rise up of backwards and leading to more integration horizontally and vertically. As ylh said but about Kashmir he was just dictector.also till new rulering pm and elections finished Kashmir problem is dead. You have suggested good formula for that question , after another few wars (4) in next 50 years finally problem will be solved as you suggested.
At this time command and control of nation must be army, as otherwise ethinic problems will flare up about compension for gas by B.stan and more water problems for water by sindh. army will go back slowly. They ruled for 50 years they will take time to withdraw to great extent about 25 to 30 years. unrealistic expectations leads to unrest.
Do you see on horizon any social change weakening feudal make up of country ? Good night

Re: # 7

interesting. how relevant are the ethnic favoritism aspects-i.e. the Bhuttos really just looked out for Sindhis...?

also, there are some ivy league and public uni grads who do a lot of good work. the questions are always about service and proven records of credibility.

lemon #4: "how can one manage the terms "democracy" and "dynasty" in the same breath?"

...this is not a dynasty.....if it was a normal dynasty, things would be ok.....nehrus are a dynasty.....kennedy's are a dynasty......they are families, who come through a system and get into power, due to their family name.....

in pakistan's case, this is a fiefdom.....much different from a dynasty.....these people don't come up through a system.....they come up through a social set up.....

half to two-third of pakistan is feudal/pir.....so when one feudal dies, the control of his land is taken over by his son (or daughter)......this is how it has worked since the days of kings, and continues today....would anyone complain if humayun took over from babar.....similary, the people in most of pakistan have no issue when bilawal takes over from benazir....similary the pir's son takes over from him......it is immaterial if the son is a toddler.....a king passes things onto his son, not to the son of his gardner......

so under the bhutto name is a huge network of feudals and pirs...ppp's whole top leadership barring the odd aitezaz are pirs and feudals......collectively they control sind, punjab etc.....so when each one dies, his son becomes the next mna......

benazir sat at the top of this hierachy, because her father was the most intelligent amongst his fellow feudals.....so her son was to lead the sons of her lieutenants, when they all, collectively, came of age....unfortunately, it happened earlier than expected.....so now he is in.....within twenty five years, the sons of the remaining ppp leaders will be under him.........

this is bad enough when they are only ruling over their constituencies......but now since there is democracy, they can join into a political party, and rule over all of us also......and they get access to not only their own resources on their lands, but to all of the state's resources.....so what all of us urbanites say is quite immaterial......pakistani politics is rural.....

......these kids go to the best schools in pakistan or to british schools.....they live in karachi, islamabad and london.....they then go to harvard or oxford or somewhere......then they return, and write some poetry, publish the odd mediocre to below-mediocre english novel, some articles in daily times and friday times on how women are suppressed in pakistan and on democracy (never commenting on how feudalism is the actual cause of this)......by that time, they are around 25, when they contest their first local election.....then at 28, their first provincial election.....and then at around 31 or so, they take a seat in the national assembly, and become the minister of this or that......then they get married to another pir or feudal's kid......and life goes on.....then someone kicks them out......they go to jail for a year or so (become martyrs through jail) and get even more votes the next time.......making sure that no one can ever vote out feudalism in pakistan, while they are in the assembly...

quite simple....

p.s. having said, i would actually like to support the author of this article as a leader....i say this in all seriousness......she is a feudal off-spring.....now if her ancestors are big enough feudals to have lands through which they can become mna's, then she is in line.....

seems decent enough.....if one is to be ruled by feudal off-spring, then might as well be ruled by one who seems decent....

Re: # 4

how can one manage the terms "democracy" and "dynasty" in the same breath?

And HOW CAN A CONVICTED CRIMINAL JAILED FOR CORRUPTION be given a leadership position of a major party and potentially of the country?!

Re: # 3

Bina, could you write to this latest development on abu zardari and zardari betay's being handed the leadership of the ppp, which seems to me incredibly stupid?

also, some of the pak ams here are pointing out that the destruction of public property, buses, stores, etc. is no longer just an expression of grief, its an expression of ppp criminality/intimidation. why destroy what common people rely on to function daily?

comments, anyone?

..i think if one is realistic, and not idealistic, one has to say there is trouble ahead......the three groups that need to be taken out of pakistani politics are military, feudal/pir/tribal leaders, and maulvis......

......unfortunately, all three have gotten stronger, and there is no one else in sight.....to the point that even educated people have started looking to one of the above three for leadership.......

...the appointment of a 19 year old as the head of ppp, should leave no doubt that it is only interested in its feudalist/pir faqiri.......this would be extremely hilarious, if it wasn't so sad.......

......pakistan's politics and life are in the rural areas.......not on chowk.......and in rural areas, for generations, people have considered feudals/pirs/tribal leaders to be their gods......it is this passion and not the passion of democracy, through which such parties get votes.......

zardari is now going to head the largest party in pakistan, with bilawal waiting in the wings......truly amazing!......i can just see aitezaz ahsan lining up behind bilawal......it will be quite a sight......i have already seen sherry rehman do it......

don't be surprised it bilawal ends up marrying someone's daughter from pml......

it is basically a kingdom......when the pir dies, his son takes over, even if he is 5......when a feudal dies, his son takes over even if he is 10......this is bad enough, for the poor people who live under the constituency of these leaders........but when all these pirs and feudals join together to form a party, then their children end up ruling over pakistan.......

pakistan is, now, doomed on both sides.....if it is dictatorship, it is doomed, if it is a democracy it is doomed.......

mr. 10% as the next prime minister of pakistan.....or will it be amin fahim.......the guy who has four sisters married to the quran......the generals are going to have a feast with these two (and with bilawal).........

it's about time that the intellectual and leftist urban wing of the ppp broke away and formed a party under someone like aitezaz ahsan.....i think there is more than enough know-how in the urban sector of pakistan, where the bhutto name is no longer needed......

in a sense, pml(n) is now an urban party, as its feudal/pir wing has broken off into pml(q)....

not that i have against the author, but if my info is correct, she, herself is from a feudal family......a bit like bilal musharraf coming on and asking for everyone to stick together to save pakistan........

The enemies of Pakistan have moved quickly indeed. Mr. 10% installed himself and his son using "mohtrama's will" as if PPP was some kingship rather than a political party that stands for democracy. Talk about "democracy" ring hollow when you dont practice what you preach.

The true Pakistani patriots meanwhile languish incommunicado in jail - like the Chief Justice, like Aitezaz Ahsan - or are otherwise sidelined - as in case of the media bans.

Bibi -- the enemies of your beloved Pakistan are your beloved Pakistanis -- nobody else -- do you want me to name them -- the top name on that list is called Mooshruff.

Bina, its right that anger is always appropriately blamed for flawed thinking since it tends to alter perception of risk, increase prejudice, and trigger aggression. but do u really think its only anger of common man thats getting destructive, well i have some serious doubts about it. after all we dont start burning our own homes when we go through the same feeling of loss and hurt. I really dont understand the destructive reactions of people, have we gone mentally sick..?